Support NeoGAF

[andymcc]

I think you're absolutely right, Beelzebufo. There are plenty of little touches you didn't see in games back then--I'll keep this pretty spoiler-free--destroyable checkpoints, Digger's Diary, and a level with lightning flashes affecting platforming, to name just a few.

Let me address a few of these:

-While destroyable checkpoints are a novel idea, I think the execution is sort of bad. The checkpoints themselves are so plentiful and populating stages that are easy (this ramps up later in the game admittedly) that they may as well not even be there. If you play with checkpoints, I'd imagine the game almost has zero challenge. I feel a traditional checkpoint system (beginning stage, mid stage, boss) would have honestly worked better, even forcing players that rely on checkpoints to learn the stages/patterns to progress, but I do appreciate trying something new.

-Digger's Diary is a nice borrowed idea from the Souls games but I wouldn't know about its implementation as I played it on 3ds

-Lightning (dark to light) platforming has actually been done in NES games before.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

I started this up on 3DS yesterday and like it a lot so far. I think I'm through four knight stages and a couple side stages. I was worried it would be overly difficult for me given the 8bit homage that it is, but it hasn't been bad at all so far.

 

[TheSlySoul]

My only compliant is the last two levels the difficulty curve spikes up. It is really jarring coming from the other more balanced levels. Still trying to get past the tower...

 

[Nabs]

When using big picture mode with PS4 controller, this game has PS4 button prompts. And this works without using the Iputwrapper! Does anyone know if this is the case with any other games?

Transistor has the same feature.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Well you do get that power swing (holding the attack button) when you finally get the upgrade for ground spark(?) that lets you hit enemies at a distance. Doesn't that count as an upgraded shovel attack?

When I say upgraded shovel attack I mean your regular swing doing more damage. IE the green slime monsters would go down in 1 swing instead of 2.

Plus doesn't the charge make Shovel Knight move even slower. It's not really what I was hoping for.

 

[Andrew.]

When I say upgraded shovel attack I mean your regular swing doing more damage. IE the green slime monsters would go down in 1 swing instead of 2.

Plus doesn't the charge make Shovel Knight move even slower. It's not really what I was hoping for.

Gotta save some stuff for the sequel my man.

Hope they include a Mega Man 3-esque slide as well.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Gotta save some stuff for the sequel my man.

.............I wouldn't consciously make the first thing have an issue to be able to fix it in a sequel......................................that's just me though.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I've beat the game already. I'm very well-versed in Famicom games. I think it is a fun distillation of games from that era, there was nothing that screamed "this is a brand new experience that i could never have in ducktales, rockman, akumajou densetsu, or zelda 2".

I thought it was kind of a shame they released that on VC on the same day as Shovel Knight hit the eShop. If anything it's improved with age, and I spent a good chunk of my weekend playing it. Anyone who thinks Shovel Knight is hard should check that out.

 

[andymcc]

I thought it was kind of a shame they released that on VC on the same day as Shovel Knight hit the eShop. If anything it's improved with age, and I spent a good chunk of my weekend playing it. Anyone who thinks Shovel Knight is hard should check that out.

i wish it was the akumajou densetsu version as well.

better music and difficulty balance.

 

[Draft]

I wonder what sort of 2D game could satisfy the type of fan that refers to Megaman as Rockman.

 

[SMgamer83]

Man, there really are all kinds of people aren't there?

You can't hide how downright unimaginative some of your level design is by hiding meaningless trinkets in every other screen, making certain jumps slightly more dangerous to get another diamond the player won't need unless they want to buy their way into an even blander game with meal tickets, bottles, relics and the like.

They're as meaningless as you choose to believe they are. Buying every item in the game is costly, I found there to be just enough. (Beat the game with 1000g in my inventory, and every item bought). This style of collection is no different than any game in that era that used coins or 1-ups to fill secret areas. Shovel Knight even goes a step further and has the hidden music sheets and a completion percentage. This doesn't make it "unimaginative", rather a well done balance of what it was trying to achieve, without being overly punishing to a not as skilled gamer.

Then there's weird, almost amateurish design flaws like making the relics optional (which could have informed the level design, added the aspect of having to learn and master new techniques). This makes every level after the first two or so when you're still thinking "wow! this is just like the games I loved" seem unnecessarily long and stretched out despite the beautiful and varied aesthetics

This is hardly a design flaw. Finding the relics makes you stronger, and allows you to do optional things. By keeping them optional, it opens up new possibilities of game play flexibility. We've already seen videos of clears with no items collected. You can be sure speed runs of the future will have to figure out what balance of items they need to collect to improve their times. That flexibility is far more engaging that a forced linear play style.

There's still a steady learning curve and the game carefully introduces new challenges, but always with the head firmly turned back to make sure gramps, daddy & mommy (Mega Man, Ducktales and Zelda II) respond with a consenting and reassuring look whatever stupid little decision is to be made. Instead of applying the kind of thinking people used to overcome hardware constraints with modern sensibilities onto current concerns, they simply used the given solutions again, maybe using hearts instead of dots.

I'm not sure it helped that the people who made this game understand what makes the games they admire work. This game feels less inspired by action platformers of the past (and some very recent critical darlings) than a somewhat unambitious child under their custody.

I love how they thanked their Kickstarters, I love that games like this can be successful, and there's potential for something truly outstanding everywhere, but the actual execution rubs me the wrong way every time. I can definitely make out the WayForward lineage.

In my opinion, this is not a good game, but yeah, I just finished it, so my thoughts are still pretty jumbled. I even came dangerously close to using a car analogy.

Re reading the last half of your post, you basically just call it uninspired over and over, without really saying why. You point out "stupid little decision" without really giving an example.

Is Shovel Knight an example of new innovative game play? No, of course not. But it is pretty much the pinnacle of this style of game play, perfectly balanced for all audiences, with enough inspiration in their characters and layouts that really shows their love of the craft. Comparing it to WayForward (Ducktales) is just silly.

 

[andymcc]

I wonder what sort of 2D game could satisfy the type of fan that refers to Megaman as Rockman.

?? i think Shovel Knight is a good game.

it's just not as a good as the games its creators obviously revere.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Saturn pad support, Steam achievements and 120hz fixed already? Great stuff.

Also, some of the posts in this thread make me glad I don't feel compelled to treat every classic game as if it were Super Metroid quality.

 

[Lashley]

Bought from GOG earlier, yet to play. Looks fun though!

 

[ryushe]

Also, some of the posts in this thread make me glad I don't feel compelled to treat every classic game as if it were Super Metroid quality.

Yep. Game does the impossible in towing the line between accessible and challenging more so than any game it 'apes', which is, IMO, a greater feat than most ppl realize.

 

[Doorman]

A lot of the complaints I've been reading about the game's balance, particularly with difficulty, seem to boil down to people thinking that the game is too easy...but I think at the same time that also misrepresents a lot of the difficulty of the classic games that Shovel Knight takes its cues from. I beat the game this morning and felt like the difficulty was fine for myself, even using health upgrades and such (although I never used the Phase Locket after clearing the forest of phasing, so I guess there's that?). Making the game brutally hard wasn't really the point. Outside of the original game I don't exactly recall people talking about how crazy tough any of the old NES Mega Man games were, why should this have to be?

I think that the game was built pretty intelligently to make it accessible enough for most people to beat, but with enough chances for more skilled players to challenge themselves should they want to. Using relics makes the game "too easy," but at the same time it's unimaginative level design to design the levels in such a way that you don't have to use them? You can play the whole game without checkpoints if you want, can play without chalices or relics, without upgrades, without health and magic. There are feats to strive for, and a NG+ for those who want to go through it all again in even more brutal fashion. I suppose you could ask for that "hard mode" to be unlocked right from the start, but outside of that I'm not sure what more could be expected out of how the game was constructed.

 

[Tain]

Then there's weird, almost amateurish design flaws like making the relics optional (which could have informed the level design, added the aspect of having to learn and master new techniques).

While I don't think this is a great game, this is the only one of your complaints that resonated with me.

I think that the game was built pretty intelligently to make it accessible enough for most people to beat, but with enough chances for more skilled players to challenge themselves should they want to. Using relics makes the game "too easy," but at the same time it's unimaginative level design to design the levels in such a way that you don't have to use them? You can play the whole game without checkpoints if you want, can play without chalices or relics, without upgrades, without health and magic. There are feats to strive for, and a NG+ for those who want to go through it all again in even more brutal fashion. I suppose you could ask for that "hard mode" to be unlocked right from the start, but outside of that I'm not sure what more could be expected out of how the game was constructed.

Fluid difficulty options like this (a bunch of gear you can ignore by acting like a developer despite being a player on their first time through) tend to not work as well as focused design for those who want a tougher experience. There are feats I can strive for, but none of them are going to make those stages in the first half of the game as fun as a number of Famicom action-platformers.

 

[Davey Cakes]

?? i think Shovel Knight is a good game.

it's just not as a good as the games its creators obviously revere.

Maybe. It's probably a better Mega Man game than Capcom could put out at this point, though.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

It feels like a pastiche of old NES games than a real, classic one. It feels like WayForward really liked Castlevania III and the Mega Man games, but they didn't really KNOW why they did it, and just grabbed a bunch of surface elements like "room-based puzzle design" and "famicom music", with this odd hodgepodge of modern game elements like the weird checkpoint system and the totally unbalanced relics that are just there. Just because they could do it, not because they should.

Its good, its cute, its admirable in a 7/10 kind of way, but its clearly not great despite its ambitions. Maybe even because of those ambitions.

 

[Laconic]

It feels like a pastiche of old NES games than a real, classic one. It feels like WayForward really liked Castlevania III and the Mega Man games, but they didn't really KNOW why they did it, and just grabbed a bunch of surface elements like "room-based puzzle design" and "famicom music", with this odd hodgepodge of modern game elements like the weird checkpoint system and the totally unbalanced relics that are just there. Just because they could do it, not because they should.

Its good, its cute, its admirable in a 7/10 kind of way, but its clearly not great despite its ambitions. Maybe even because of those ambitions.

Ambitious design should never get in the way of solid fundamentals.

That said, I'm going to put my current run through EO2 on hiatus, and give this puppy a whirl.

 

[andymcc]

Maybe. It's probably a better Mega Man game than Capcom could put out at this point, though.

I would say 9 & 10 are better than this.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I would say 9 & 10 are better than this.

agreed

 

[OldRoutes]

It feels like a pastiche of old NES games than a real, classic one. It feels like WayForward really liked Castlevania III and the Mega Man games, but they didn't really KNOW why they did it, and just grabbed a bunch of surface elements like "room-based puzzle design" and "famicom music", with this odd hodgepodge of modern game elements like the weird checkpoint system and the totally unbalanced relics that are just there. Just because they could do it, not because they should.

Its good, its cute, its admirable in a 7/10 kind of way, but its clearly not great despite its ambitions. Maybe even because of those ambitions.

I don't think WayForward developed Shovel Knight... I think Yacht Club did.

 

[Tain]

apparently they are made of a number of ex-WayForward developers.

Which honestly surprises me a little. I liked this more than any of WayForward's games.

edit: and yeah, 9 & 10 were significantly better than this.

 

[Mesoian]

I would say 9 & 10 are better than this.

I wouldn't, but I'm also of the mindset that 9 and 10 were fairly weak in the MM pantheon.

Looking at some of the responses from the last 10 pages, were people expecting this game to be the greatest 2d platformer of all time? Because many of you certainly sound like you were expecting it to trump literally everything.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

I think MM9 (never played 10) is better than this, but then I think 9 is even better than 2. It's a really great game.

 

[KarmaCow]

The relics being completely optional outside of a few bonus rooms does kinda break some of the level design, but I'm still eager to see how quickly you can go through levels with the Propeller Dagger and Phase Locket even if it isn't tuned for them. The Knuckles are really worthless though since they need dirt in such a specific arrangement.

 

[Mesoian]

The relics being completely optional outside of a few bonus rooms does kinda break some of the level design, but I'm still eager to see how quickly you can go through levels with the Propeller Dagger and Phase Locket even if it isn't tuned for them. The Knuckles are really worthless though since they need dirt in such a specific arrangement.

That "beat the game in less than 90 minutes" cheevo exists for a reason.

 

[andymcc]

I think MM9 (never played 10) is better than this, but then I think 9 is even better than 2. It's a really great game.

Yeah, it's probably my favorite in the series.

 

[AwShucks]

The people who say the game isn't challenging at all must be really good. I've played NES more than any other system and am used to the typical traps but even I die multiple times during levels and bosses. Without the checkpoints I might not ever beat the game.

 

[maxcriden]

Mega Man fans, not to go off on too far of a tangent here, but I was wondering if Andy, JC and any other MM fans here could help me figure out how best to get into the series. I've only tried the original game on NES VC and I honestly found it brutally difficult and couldn't get into it at all. I also played a stage and a half or so, maybe 2.5 stages, of Megaman and Bass GBA and also found that to be pretty insanely tough. I dunno. Maybe I'm just bad and run'n'gun platformers but I tend to be pretty solid with regular platformers and Metroidvanias...and I'm decent enough at Shovel Knight so...I dunno. I'd love any advice. (I have played at least one Battle Network game, but my understanding is those are totally different from the mainline MM games in every way imaginable.)

 

[Eusis]

I wonder what sort of 2D game could satisfy the type of fan that refers to Megaman as Rockman.

This should be fine after you swap most of the English for Japanese!

Mega Man fans, not to go off on too far of a tangent here, but I was wondering if Andy, JC and any other MM fans here could help me figure out how best to get into the series. I've only tried the original game on NES VC and I honestly found it brutally difficult and couldn't get into it at all. I also played a stage and a half or so, maybe 2.5 stages, of Megaman and Bass GBA and also found that to be pretty insanely tough. I dunno. Maybe I'm just bad and run'n'gun platformers but I tend to be pretty solid with regular platformers and Metroidvanias...and I'm decent enough at Shovel Knight so...I dunno. I'd love any advice. (I have played at least one Battle Network game, but my understanding is those are totally different from the mainline MM games in every way imaginable.)

Try Mega Man 2. It's generally considered the quintessential Mega Man of the classic formula. If that doesn't work for you at all try Mega Man X, maybe that series is more your flavor and is more modernized (though given it's 20+ years old it's not THAT "modern" anymore anyway.)

 

[Mesoian]

Mega Man fans, not to go off on too far of a tangent here, but I was wondering if Andy, JC and any other MM fans here could help me figure out how best to get into the series. I've only tried the original game on NES VC and I honestly found it brutally difficult and couldn't get into it at all. I also played a stage and a half or so, maybe 2.5 stages, of Megaman and Bass GBA and also found that to be pretty insanely tough. I dunno. Maybe I'm just bad and run'n'gun platformers but I tend to be pretty solid with regular platformers and Metroidvanias...and I'm decent enough at Shovel Knight so...I dunno. I'd love any advice. (I have played at least one Battle Network game, but my understanding is those are totally different from the mainline MM games in every way imaginable.)

Megaman 2, Megaman 3, Megaman X, X2, X3, X4, Megaman 9, Megaman 10, X8.

In that order.

 

[Andrew.]

Mega Man fans, not to go off on too far of a tangent here, but I was wondering if Andy, JC and any other MM fans here could help me figure out how best to get into the series. I've only tried the original game on NES VC and I honestly found it brutally difficult and couldn't get into it at all

Start with 2 and go from there. 2, 3 and X are the priorities. Everything after 3 is pretty meh to me personally. 5 & 6 especially. I wasnt a fan of 9 & 10 either. 4 is alright.

 

[andymcc]

Mega Man fans, not to go off on too far of a tangent here, but I was wondering if Andy, JC and any other MM fans here could help me figure out how best to get into the series. I've only tried the original game on NES VC and I honestly found it brutally difficult and couldn't get into it at all. I also played a stage and a half or so, maybe 2.5 stages, of Megaman and Bass GBA and also found that to be pretty insanely tough. I dunno. Maybe I'm just bad and run'n'gun platformers but I tend to be pretty solid with regular platformers and Metroidvanias...and I'm decent enough at Shovel Knight so...I dunno. I'd love any advice. (I have played at least one Battle Network game, but my understanding is those are totally different from the mainline MM games in every way imaginable.)

The first Mega Man really just lays the foundation for the series and is quite easily (imo) the hardest of the original series. It has some stuff that works, some that doesn't.

Mega Man 2 is usually the easiest to recommend but, honestly, MM9 is just as easy as a recommendation. It's very similar to the old games but it does allow you to buy power ups with collected bits so it can be more welcoming to new players.

 

[maxcriden]

What makes 2 so much better to start with than 1? Is it considerably easier or more manageable to control somehow? (I can't stress enough how hilariously bad I am at the first one.)

ETA: Have you guys played MM & Bass? I ask because that one does allow you to buy items with bits and I still found it tough as nails, only slightly more doable than MM1. I should mention I was playing as MM and not Bass.

 

[jblank83]

This is a very well thought out and articulated post, and it is dangerously close to dampening my hype.

...say it ain't so, Retro-GAF. :/

It's not well thought out or articulated. Typing in full sentences does not make something true or reasonable. Most of it is unsupported subjective opinion and some of it is untrue.

 

[Andrew.]

What makes 2 so much better to start with than 1? Is it considerably easier or more manageable to control somehow? (I can't stress enough how hilariously bad I am at the first one.)

Definitely easier. Much, much more memorable music and REALLY lays the foundation for the rest of the series. 8 bosses, the displayed map of Wilys castle, etc.

 

[Grisby]

YOU DEFEATED!

Clocked in at 83% item find and just a little over 6 hours.

Great game and that last screen definitely got a smile outta me. Pretty sure it's going to end up on my GOTY list.

 

[andymcc]

What makes 2 so much better to start with than 1? Is it considerably easier or more manageable to control somehow? (I can't stress enough how hilariously bad I am at the first one.)

It's easier, more mindfully designed (there is nothing as bad as Ice Man's disappearing platforms or Wily's castle), better weapons and powerups.

 

[goldenpp72]

What makes 2 so much better to start with than 1? Is it considerably easier or more manageable to control somehow? (I can't stress enough how hilariously bad I am at the first one.)

Mega Man 2 kind of laid the quality foundation for the entire series where as Mega Man 1 was like the idea done in relatively strong fashion, but with hiccups. MM2 is a much easier game and better balanced all around, though in my mind MM3 might be a bit easier.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I would say 9 & 10 are better than this.

Mega Man 9, maybe. Maaaaybe.

Mega Man 10? No way.

 

[Andrew.]

MM2 is a much easier game and better balanced all around, though in my mind MM3 might be a bit easier.

Hell no. Those Doc Robot stages were a pain in the ass.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

It's not well thought out or articulated. Typing in full sentences does not make something true or reasonable. Most of it is unsupported subjective opinion and some of it is untrue.

Not taking sides on this either way but is it possible to have an objective opinion?

 

[Mesoian]

Not taking sides on this either way but is it possible to have an objective opinion?

Oxygen being required by human life is pretty awesome?

 

[Andrew.]

Oxygen being required by human life is pretty awesome?

Shut up, you're wrong.

 

[Stone Ocean]

ETA: Have you guys played MM & Bass? I ask because that one does allow you to buy items with bits and I still found it tough as nails, only slightly more doable than MM1. I should mention I was playing as MM and not Bass.

It's more because MM&B is kind of a shitty game design-wise when it comes to playing as Megaman.

Oxygen being required by human life is pretty awesome?

But those other planets that have Helium or some shit in their atmosphere are so much better than this one!

 

[jblank83]

Not taking sides on this either way but is it possible to have an objective opinion?

You can have an informed opinion, an objective analysis with one's own conclusions based on that analysis, such as in "the opinion of the court" based on interpretation of the law or a medical opinion based on medical training, knowledge, and intuition. Despite its use on message boards, the term "opinion" does not automatically mean completely subjective and unsupportable personal beliefs on a subject.

You can also have subjective opinions on a subject with one person's personal thoughts based less on analysis and more on internal biases and feelings, unsupported by example or fact.

Yes, subjective opinion is a term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_logic#Subjective_opinions

 

[maxcriden]

Thanks for the info, guys. Much appreciated, I'll try to check out MM2 sometime soon.

 

[Mesoian]

Shut up, you're wrong.

::Shrugs:: I tried.