What is it about western comics manga readers are turned off by? (& vice-versa)

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On average I prefer manga because holy shit comics can be so fucking bad, but the best of comics easily kicks manga's ass to the curb. I've yet to read a manga series as good as Watchmen, Arkham Asylum, Hellblazer or Sandman, to name a few.

The annoying thing about the average comic(I'm going to generalize a bit here) is that they try to be super detailed and realistic, but that makes the errors and flaws all the more apparent, and the composition can be stilted and sterile. Compared to the average manga, which can be quite dynamic and visceral western comics can often look like a series of pictures just haphazardly put together with no real thought. The artists/writers don't make good use of the amount of space, control and production values they have. But when they do, the results are breathtaking.

for me what i like about comics that manga doesnt tend to do is how they use there panels my friend has sent me some really cool samples of the flash/hawkeye and moon knight comics that used some really cool minimalistic approaches.

For me i prefer manga over comics because most of the time when i read its fairly bite sized and easy to come back to while in comics generally from what ive read kinda seem more episodic(of course this is just personal opinion) Also for me at a personal level i never got a heart pumping rush in comics i got from reading stuff like one piece or hell even naruto when they unleash special sure kill moves (i really love these things alot and it is probably one f the main reasons why i consume more manga then comics)
 
What I like about superhero comics is that the characters are larger than life in a world filled with the mundane. I like moments where characters are just going about their daily lives rather than just constantly kicking ass.

I honestly like seeing how Clark reacts to things rather than how superman would use his fancy powers. I like seeing how bruce reacts to a situation rather than batman doing badass things.
 
Anything by Nobuyuki Fukumoto (Kaiji, Akagi, The Legend of Strongest Man Kurosawa etc.), Ichi the Killer, Uzumaki, to name a few.
I haven't read Fukumoto's stuff but I couldn't take Ichi or Junji Ito's work seriously tbh. They were good but they felt pretty pulpy. I admit the same applies to Hellblazer
 
What I like about superhero comics is that the characters are larger than life in a world filled with the mundane. I like moments where characters are just going about their daily lives rather than just constantly kicking ass.

I honestly like seeing how Clark reacts to things rather than how superman would use his fancy powers. I like seeing how bruce reacts to a situation rather than batman doing badass things.

tbf there are manga where the heroes do have day to day lives as well as doing badass things personally i dont really understand the whole comic vs manga thing since i think they both have strengths and weaknesses :T
 
I find that western comic books tend to be super hero trash. A lot of modern comics try to be mature but it always seems super awkward because of how juvenile super hero comics are. As a person who mainly reads manga for stories, character development/drama, and humor, I put super hero comics up there with battle shounen like Naruto or Dragon Ball (both of which are dumb and melodramatic). The only shounen I can even handle/enjoy is Hunter x Hunter, but the rest are kind of garbage.

Also, the art in american comic books tend to look hideous by comparison. The over saturated realistic look doesn't look appealing to me.
 
Oh Great should really never write again; his shit makes Naruto read like fucking Nobel Prize material.

Oh greats works start off ok, then somewhere near the end a rambling madman starts writing. This seems like its starting the crazy nonsense off early. But its nice to look at
 
tbf there are manga where the heroes do have day to day lives as well as doing badass things personally i dont really understand the whole comic vs manga thing since i think they both have strengths and weaknesses :T

It's just a personal thing.

I grew up with comics and superheroes. I didn't even know what anime was until I was in my mid to late teens. when dbz got really popular I watched a bit of it, liked it, watched dragonball and liked it even more but tried to get into manga, and I struggled to find stuff I enjoyed.

I liked dragonball and z {to a lesser extent} a lot because it was kind of a lot like a superhero comic/show.
 
While I am sympathetic to the "one creator on a story" mindset and preference, I'm kind of indifferent to it with cape books since I can't think of a single mainstream hero whose best stories were written by their original creators. Or even their most defining beyond origins stories. Look at the X-Men. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby may have created them, but the only reason anyone today gives a shit about them is because Marvel let Chris Claremont have run of the house for 17 years starting back in 1975.

And I definitely don't agree that because you're working with established characters in an established universe, you can't leave your own mark or have your signature style. Grant Morrison's Batman is definitely Grant Morrison's all the way; I can't imagine anyone else writing something like Batman RIP or Batman Incorporated. Matt Fraction's Hawkeye (when it actually comes out :p) feels totally unique in the genre and his style and voice shine through. I mentioned earlier that Wonder Woman is incredibly creator driven: George Perez, Greg Rucka, Gail Simone, Brian Azzarello, and many others have all left their unique marks on the character and her lore.
 
I haven't read Fukumoto's stuff but I couldn't take Ichi or Junji Ito's work seriously tbh. They were good but they felt pretty pulpy. I admit the same applies to Hellblazer

Fair enough. But I would seriously I advice you keep Fukumoto in mind when you are in the mood for a good Manga. Dude is not only a great Mangaka but also a great storyteller in general. Kurosawa brought tears in my eyes when I finished it. I can't even remember the last time a piece of fiction achieved that. But I'm not sure if it's the best Manga to start since it's rather slow in the beginning, Kaiji might be the better choice.

Btw. the Jodorowskys Dune thread that popped up yesterday made me to buy The Metabarons Ultimate Collection. Can't wait to dive into it when it arrives.
 
Fair enough. But I would seriously I advice you keep Fukumoto in mind when you are in the mood for a good Manga. Dude is not only a great Mangaka but also a great storyteller in general. Kurosawa brought tears in my eyes when I finished it. I can't even remember the last time a piece of fiction achieved that. But I'm not sure if it's the best Manga to start since it's rather slow in the beginning, Kaiji might be the better choice.

Btw. the Jodorowskys Dune thread that popped up yesterday made me to buy The Metabarons Ultimate Collection. Can't wait to dive into it when it arrives.

I'm a sucker for slow stuff, actually. Slow pacing wouldn't be a problem. I'll be sure to check his stuff out
 
Oh Great should really never write again; his shit makes Naruto read like fucking Nobel Prize material.
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his storys kinda fall flat a lot of the time sure but he is by far one of my favorite artists in manga

It's just a personal thing.

I grew up with comics and superheroes. I didn't even know what anime was until I was in my mid to late teens. when dbz got really popular I watched a bit of it, liked it, watched dragonball and liked it even more but tried to get into manga, and I struggled to find stuff I enjoyed.

I liked dragonball and z {to a lesser extent} a lot because it was kind of a lot like a superhero comic/show.

thats fine :) in the end its all just personal opinions and what not anyway :P
for me i was never really interested in comics or manga until my late teens as well but manga just clicked more with me i guess :P

Oh greats works start off ok, then somewhere near the end a rambling madman starts writing. This seems like its starting the crazy nonsense off early. But its nice to look at
(

also it seems like h great is not writing this time and its being done by someone else at least thats what manga updates is saying and the wiki (who knows maybe it will be different i dont know i just want more 2 page spreads :P)
 
It's just a personal thing.

I grew up with comics and superheroes. I didn't even know what anime was until I was in my mid to late teens. when dbz got really popular I watched a bit of it, liked it, watched dragonball and liked it even more but tried to get into manga, and I struggled to find stuff I enjoyed.

I liked dragonball and z {to a lesser extent} a lot because it was kind of a lot like a superhero comic/show.
You should try the manga One Punch Man. It's a manga about superheroes and the main character's ability is killing people with one punch.
It's hilarious and beautiful.
 
I never got into American/Western comics because I want to read all of something, and to read all of, say, Captain America... that would take years. I also like how manga have a coherent storyline and one author/artist from beginning to end. Western comics going on forever, changing artists, rebooting all the time... none of it clicks with me. The big muscles/realism in Western art are also a turn off. I don't not enjoy Western comics, but I wouldn't go out of my way to read them.
 
By Western I guess you mean North American? 'Cause I don't really enjoy manga or superhero type stuff very much, but I absolutely adore French-Belgian stuff like Tintin/Asterix/Spirou.

To answer your question, a lot of people are just not that into the 'superhero' thing. It has its audience clearly, but good super powered beings battling evil super powered humans is an inherently limited narrative, at least as its developed in the mainstream American scene thus far.
 
You should try the manga One Punch Man. It's a manga about superheroes and the main character's ability is killing people with one punch.
It's hilarious and beautiful.


Japanese superheroes can be pretty damned cool.

I'm quite large fan of Viewtiful Joe, and I loved the wonderful 101. Though they have more influence in sentai, I get strong superhero vibes from them.
 
I don't read any manga at all, only the more westernised American/European comics. I've heard of a few, but it tends to be more people talking about them on forums than anything else. I don't really feel any close connection to Japanese culture, which is probably why I've never sought out that sort of thing, and the stereotypical image of manga as being mostly about schoolgirls or giant robots tends to put me off, although obviously this isn't going to be the case for all books. Mostly I tend to dislike the art style though, characters are too young, eyes are too big, all black & white, there's not really a lot there to draw me in. Everything I've seen (which isn't much, admittedly) seems very similar, and it's not something I care for.

I see a lot of people talking about western comics (especially American superhero ones) having an impenetrable continuity, that's what put me off superhero comics for a very long time, but both Marvel and DC have had re-launches of titles which are designed as jumping on points, and I've found a lot of books I enjoy through those. I still see a lot of the flaws with ongoing books, and prefer Image or Vertigo-style books where there's generally a conclusion things are drawing to (Locke and & Key, Y: The Last Man, Sandman etc), but for the most part, even if I haven't read 75 years of Spider-Man comics, I can get enough about the character's back story from reading the books or through cultural osmosis that I don't have a problem following the story, and I don't feel like I've missed out. Plus you get books like Hawkeye where the art is a joy and the feel of the book is much different to what you'd expect.

Maybe I just haven't come into contact with enough manga style books that break the mould, but it's unlikely that I'm going to try them out when the limited experiences I've had with those kinds of books haven't really done anything for me. I don't like anime/manga stuff in general, I doubt much is going to convince me otherwise, but I don't have any particular issue with it being around for other people to enjoy.
 
I haven't read Fukumoto's stuff but I couldn't take Ichi or Junji Ito's work seriously tbh. They were good but they felt pretty pulpy. I admit the same applies to Hellblazer

Junji Ito's work especially feels overrated. I mean I love the disturbing art but the writing is subpar. I just read story where floating heads had taken over a city and protagonist's family was entrenched in their house, but for some reason, the father still insisted going to work. No matter that Japan was over taken with FLOATING HEADS!

I admit he has written some really good stories as well but mostly his art is only good thing about his work.
 
It's an online manga, I don't think there're any plans for an American retail release.

Yeah.

another thing is that manga heavily skews into sci fi and I never could get into sci fi outside of a few star trek series and star wars. The only sci fi books I liked were hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and that's because they were more comedies than your typical sci fi novel.
 
The manga industry is seemingly more varied than most other countries output. Of course, Japan has the advantage of having a far larger comic culture and output. Theres manga for almost anything.

I like manga more than American comics, the stories and characters appeal to me more, as well as the art. As others have said, the Japanese industry is more organised and is easier to follow on-going series. Having one author for each manga helps and lessens the hap-hazard feeling American series can have with many authors and artists working on them.
 
A hilarious and hypocritical argument tossed back and forth between the two is that their storylines never end. There are manga and comics that have told the same ongoing story for decades. Just like soap operas, etc.

Maybe it's still true for manga which is great for the fans following them for so long. However, the current comics companies just reboot their characters every few years; whether it be the entire universe or individual characters.

Actually, that's kind of my take on it. I follows mostly manga and comics that had an ongoing story that I figured had a definitive ending somewhere down the line. A vast portion of western comics don't have that. Doesn't mean I don't follow the like of decade old comics/mangas, but my memory can only process so much.
 
I guess my biggest problem with Manga is how varied they are and difficult to get a hold of, not to mention the price and worries about translation. Plus some of them run for too long.
 
Yeah.

another thing is that manga heavily skews into sci fi and I never could get into sci fi outside of a few star trek series and star wars. The only sci fi books I liked were hitchhikers guide to the galaxy and that's because they were more comedies than your typical sci fi novel.

Eh I don't think sci fi is a particularly big genre in manga. The whole giant robot space opera thing is much more prominent in anime.
 
I never got into American/Western comics because I want to read all of something, and to read all of, say, Captain America... that would take years. I also like how manga have a coherent storyline and one author/artist from beginning to end. Western comics going on forever, changing artists, rebooting all the time... none of it clicks with me. The big muscles/realism in Western art are also a turn off. I don't not enjoy Western comics, but I wouldn't go out of my way to read them.

We get this so much in the comics thread, I find it so odd. Reading 'all' of Batman or Cap is a fools errand - for starters, most of it will be pretty bad. As I say, it's not that the books go on forever at all - there are runs within the series that are complete and satisfying reads. For instance, you could read all of Brubaker's run on Cap and get a massive, sprawling and complete story. Or you could read Remender's current run. They're often informed by the past, but it's really just context, the runs themselves are nearly always complete within themselves.

Things like art styles are subjective of course, but it's not all rippling muscle and grimaces. The Brubaker run on Cap has some really great heavy-brush style art throughout the run, very grounded and well proportioned. Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses - manga has unparalleled senses of speed and movement, and the background work is often incredible technical drawing (Akira still blows my mind with the environment design). But the style is fairly homogenous and IMO fairly odd in the ways that they go about drawing Japanese people.

Western comics have a broader scope of styles available to choose from, and I don't think there's anything in manga similar to someone like JH Williams who is able to play so much with the form of narrative storytelling

jhw3batwoman.jpg


Another interesting thing that comics have that is (probably) unique to all of media is these massive collaborative universes that are a feat of accomplishment in and of themselves. Added to by hundreds, thousands of minds over the years, staggeringly complex at times and yet mostly cohesive and accessible. The feeling of history and continuity is unmatched in any other form of storytelling.

Also, I think it's important to note the cultural aspects of being a westerner who is primarily a manga reader. Often times these folks are into lots of other Japanese media too, games, anime, music etc. These people have chosen to immerse themselves in a fairly alien culture and to define themselves pop-culturally through that. In which case it's not really surprising that they don't jive with more traditionally western artforms.
 
What is it about western comics that put off manga readers?

As someone who has read and collected manga for 23 years, these are the things I don't like about western comics.

1) The characters are treated like an IP which is endlessly recycled with an endless number of artists and writers. I want consistency in art and story, and I want stories that actually have a beginning and an end. The western comics that fulfill these requirements, I actually like (e.g. Watchmen). This is also why I don't like anime adaptations.

2) I don't understand western comics' fascination with superheroes. Manga tends to cover many different genres and types of stories. There are manga on sports, table top games, having children, cooking, etc etc. And there are the manga that aren't really about anything at all (e.g. Oyasumi Pun Pun).

3) Cost. It's not exactly cheap to purchase an issue of a comic where I live (not to mention collecting it) which tends to be awfully thin and awfully light on story. The ones which compile a whole storyline are actually much better in this aspect, but then manga tends to do a lot better.
 
This is my personal opinion by I generally don't like the art style and themes of western comics. Also, I've never been able to identify with western heroes.

That said, I don't think they are bad or of a lesser quality than manga - they just don't speak to me on on an aesthetic, cultural or personal level.
 
This is my personal opinion by I generally don't like the art style and themes of western comics. Also, I've never been able to identify with western heroes.

That said, I don't think they are bad or of a lesser quality than manga - they just don't speak to me on on an aesthetic, cultural or personal level.


I feel the same way, but with manga and anime replacing western superheroes.

I grew up with disney, loony toons, superman, spiderman batman etc but I never knew about anime until I was almost ready to graduate HS. By then I didn't watch much TV, I was playing games and going to the cinema more.

Though, I can say that I grew up more with Japanese games than american made ones.
 
don't read western comics but i absolutely love reading about characters and events that happened in the comics like the infinity gauntlet.
 
Both do their own thing, which is why I like them both, and why I read both when I can.

Yep. Be it western graphic novels or manga, most of my all-time favs don't have corresponding counterparts in each other. We3, Y: The Last Man, Battle Angel Alita, Evangelion, Pluto, Berserk, Ranma 1/2 (can you tell it's been a while since I've read any manga?). Then again, these titles are pretty unique properties in and of themselves; it's why they're so highly regarded.

It's funny, I've read a few comments in here how western comics are more mature and how this is a turn off for them, but I've probably read more mature themes (artificial intelligence, rape, pedophilia, prostitution, child abandonment, etc) in manga than in western comics.

There's something for everyone in both...though I will say that there is a bigger prevalence of sporting related titles in manga.
 
I don't like how Cape Comic's universes are like collaborative fan fiction. I just want stories with a beginning and ending. I don't really have a problem with superheros I just don't care about the continued re imagining of them. There are some odd stuff I like in Marvel like "The Superior Foes of Spider-Man", however I usually stick to comics outsider of Marvel/DC. Manga only has this problem with really popular franchises (see: Evangelion). Manga has it's own quirks such as a hug amount of onamonapia like whoa you wouldn't believe the amount of onamonapia Japan has. Also despite the common belief, Japanese artists have as much a variance in art style as western artists.
 
I like comics in general so I read a little of each: american, asian and european.

One thing I like with european comics is that when something is shit, you can often tell by the cover. The drawings are bad, the theme of the comic is bad. It's more hard to tell with american comics and mangas.

I also recommend this:
9782203047730.jpg


It's "manga-inspired" comic written and drawn by french authors. It's really great. It's a good blend of various genres (shonen, medieval-fantasy, sci-fi, ...) It's being translated in English and I think it's already available in italian and other languages.
 
Western comics = American superhero comics in this thread I see.

I wish more people would read stuff like Guy Delisle's great books:

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Damn, I have to go to work, but this would be a fun topic to talk in.

So to expand a bit:

One of the reasons I prefer manga is because people look more like normal people.

The heroes are always skinny and look like people you'd expect to see walking down the street. On the other hand, Western heroes look like use steroids. Personally, I find the Western obsession with hyper-masculinization taxing.

Also, I like that fact that "study" culture is so strongly represented in manga. This is something I lived through so I appreciate how it it's not only represented, but valued as well.

I feel the same way, but with manga and anime replacing western superheroes.

I grew up with disney, loony toons, superman, spiderman batman etc but I never knew about anime until I was almost ready to graduate HS. By then I didn't watch much TV, I was playing games and going to the cinema more.

Though, I can say that I grew up more with Japanese games than american made ones.

That's totally fair. Ultimately, it's a discussion of civilisation and cultural values.
 
I would say this a disadvantage.
Why would you say having a single author on the entirety of his work is a disadvantage, compared to having multiple author changes over the course of a series?

ЯAW;120313345 said:
When it comes to comics, does any other country put out slice of life stuff like Japan? Seems like most western stories need to have some kind of goal.
Slice of life in Japan can have a goal too, but it comes through character developments I suppose. Depends on the story.

Western comics have a broader scope of styles available to choose from, and I don't think there's anything in manga similar to someone like JH Williams who is able to play so much with the form of narrative storytelling
To me that doesn't really look like anything special in narrative storytelling, it's just panels done more artistically. I don't have the page on hand, but the 16-panel page from The Dark Knight Returns showing the Waynes' deaths (spoilers) seems to me just plain better at the 'narrative storytelling' you're purporting that Batwoman does, because that page was actually storytelling, whereas the page you posted was more like 'check out this cool action sequence in this cool spread'. There are probably better examples in Batwoman, but you chose poorly.

Moreover, from a comparison of the size of industries, it's much more likely that art style-wise manga is more diverse than comics simply because the number of artists is undoubtedly more plentiful in the manga industry compared to the comics industry. Whether or not they copy each other styles though, that's something more difficult to measure.

Also, I think it's important to note the cultural aspects of being a westerner who is primarily a manga reader. Often times these folks are into lots of other Japanese media too, games, anime, music etc. These people have chosen to immerse themselves in a fairly alien culture and to define themselves pop-culturally through that. In which case it's not really surprising that they don't jive with more traditionally western artforms.
I think this is a very roundabout way of trying to call people who prefer manga 'weaboos'. The preference does not necessarily lie completely with artforms (which seems to be the focus of your post). The 'westerner who is primarily a manga reader' is not necessarily a person who is 'immersing himself in a fairly alien culture'. Consumption of entertainment material is not in turn an act of 'definition pop-culturally' through this 'alien culture'.
 
One of the things I like about manga is that it's most of the time singular vision of one creator. There are exceptions and most big folk have assistants, but the authors generally are responsible for both the script and drawings, which very rarely happens in western comics.

Not that shared creation is any worse, just that it's something that makes manga pretty unique to me.
 
Are Japanese comics still grayscale/black and white?

I don´t think many mangakas have time for coloring with the ridiculous deadlines that they have, but then again many have assistants helping them

But i think that many good drawn black & white comics/mangas have more details then color

sorry for my bad english
 
Damn, I have to go to work, but this would be a fun topic to talk in.

So to expand a bit:

One of the reasons I prefer manga is because people look more like normal people.

The heroes are always skinny and look like people you'd expect to see walking down the street. On the other hand, Western heroes look like use steroids. Personally, I find the Western obsession with hyper-masculinization taxing.

Also, I like that fact that "study" culture is so strongly represented in manga. This is something I lived through so I appreciate how it it's not only represented, but valued as well.



That's totally fair. Ultimately, it's a discussion of civilisation and cultural values.

Except with massive eyes and weird hair and no lips and Japanese people who look like white people and WAT.

Much as with manga, the weird art ticks will vary from one artist to another. Just as not all manga characters look like Dragon Ball dudes, not all capes look like they were drawn by Rob Leifeld.

What I find weirdest about manga is how strongly study culture is represented in hentai. It's pretty hard to find age-appropriate material.
 
To me that doesn't really look like anything special in narrative storytelling, it's just panels done more artistically. I don't have the page on hand, but the 16-panel page from The Dark Knight Returns showing the Waynes' deaths (spoilers) seems to me just plain better at the 'narrative storytelling' you're purporting that Batwoman does, because that page was actually storytelling, whereas the page you posted was more like 'check out this cool action sequence in this cool spread'. There are probably better examples in Batwoman, but you chose poorly.

Yeah pretty much just chose this page because it's dope as fuck, slightly limited by what Google has too. But you're right, that bit in DKR is very good, or even look at something like watchmen with the layering of narratives, sometimes three or four deep in a single panel. But really I was going for an emphasis that shows western comics can also be incredibly dynamic and visually arresting as well.

The use of colour has also come in in amazing strides in the past decade, something that I think manga would hugely benefit from.

I think this is a very roundabout way of trying to call people who prefer manga 'weaboos'. The preference does not necessarily lie completely with artforms (which seems to be the focus of your post). The 'westerner who is primarily a manga reader' is not necessarily a person who is 'immersing himself in a fairly alien culture'. Consumption of entertainment material is not in turn an act of 'definition pop-culturally' through this 'alien culture'.

I wasn't trying to cause offense, hence not calling y'all weeaboos but yeah pretty much, you as a manga fan appear to be into different stuff than I as a western comics fan. Just one look through your posting history shows me that. You're all about Japanese culture. And that's totally fine. But I'm guessing that's not your native culture, and so the choice to get heavily into it is a conscious one that you go into knowing that it's different.

IMO it's the same with any other form of cultural identification. "I am X", where X is "metal head" or "MMA fan" or "classical music fan" etc. IMO, a primary identification spreads out into other interests and is usually fairly predictable along certain lines, myself included.

Which is all a long way of saying "of course manga fans don't like western comics". I'll put it this way - I'm in to weird rock music, right? Therefore I've consciously opted out of mainstream music and won't like it if I hear it. This decision was probably in part informed by my liking comics as a kid, an activity that as an 11 year old was purposefully exclusionary (I knew my peers didn't like/get it) and that also led to me being into other niche hobbies along similar lines.

I think the same would be for someone who's a Japan enthusiast, one thing leads to another and before you know it, Japanese stuff is your primary cultural occupation, to the point where other more traditional forms of media don't appeal as much.
 
As someone who reads both Manga and Western comics, I tend to lean toward Manga purely because they have a beginning, middle and an ending whereas Western comics don't and reboot time after time which gets annoying and cause character development to go nowhere.

This thread saddens me. There's so much more to Western comics that superhero schlock.

The last non superheroes western comic I read was The Beano, before I outgrew it.
 
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