What is it about western comics manga readers are turned off by? (& vice-versa)

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My experience with Western comics tends to be that their chapters/stories/installments feel lighter and feature less content, and even in anthologies everything then has this slightly rushed feel to it since they're trying to do a long form story in very small installments. Its enough to put me off, whereas I think most good manga is paced better
 
My experience with Western comics tends to be that their chapters/stories/installments feel lighter and feature less content, and even in anthologies everything then has this slightly rushed feel to it since they're trying to do a long form story in very small installments. Its enough to put me off, whereas I think most good manga is paced better

That's just the fundamental nature of the trade.

It is significantly easier to pencil + ink relatively simple characters and backgrounds than fully colourise complex characters and backgrounds. As a result, there is more of a pull to consolidate and streamline the typical Western comics...while Japanese manga can be more relaxed in its pacing.

The same issue happens with Anime...the Anime equivalents of Manga tend to be more condensed pacing-wise.
 
That's just the fundamental nature of the trade.

It is significantly easier to pencil + ink relatively simple characters and backgrounds than fully colourise complex characters and backgrounds. As a result, there is more of a pull to consolidate and streamline the typical Western comics...while Japanese manga can be more relaxed in its pacing.

The same issue happens with Anime...the Anime equivalents of Manga tend to be more condensed pacing-wise.

Yeah its why most of the western stuff I've enjoyed is the stuff that has been written for book publication since it doesn't necessarily operate under the same constraints that make the serial stuff feel rushed
 
I have tried to get into superhero comics but my issue is that I can never find a good place to actually start. At least with manga, you start with chapter 1 and then keep reading until there are no more chapters left. There are no reboots or continuity problems or crossover events. It's a lot more straightforward.
 
Superheroes: I don't really want to dig for "good storylines", nor do I want to have to ignore certain other works because "it's not part of the main canon" or "it's a different timeline" or so on and so forth. I like my stories to be holistic works, and rarely do I make an exception only in cases of multiple disparate adaptations of an existing work, such as the Maoyuu Maou Yuusha series. From an outside perspective looking in, it feels like there's only one true "canon", the original series, and everything else up to now is more or less officially sanctioned fan fiction.

Others: I read stuff on occasion, The Sandman, Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, Scott Pilgrim. I have others series I have on the back back log, like Hellblazer and Lucifer, because as interesting as they are, comics simply aren't a priority in my life. Part of this is due to art style differences, I never liked the West's fascination with photorealism, whether in comics or in games. I'm a big character design/art style kind of guy, and I'll read something simply if the art looks interesting, no matter the actual quality of the series. An example that immediately comes to mind is O'Malley's Young Avenger's cover:
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I was really disappointed to find out he wasn't doing an entire comic, because I would've definitely read that. What I like most about this cover is how you can see the personalities of all the team members reflected in the art. It's cartoony, yes, but visually, it conveys far more information about the story than something like:
(Which is still a good cover, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't have the same narrative impact as O'Malley's.)

Communicating story through art is drastically more difficult to do with photorealistic art, because our brains have different standards for abstracted faces and realistic ones. It's why cartoons characters can behave in ways LA actors can't, without breaking immersion or just becoming cringeworthy.
 
I lean towards reading crime related comics with the rare superhero title sprinkled in-between. Scalped, 100 Bullets, Sandman, Planetary and Garth Ennis' Punisher run are at the top of the heap for me. In my limited experience with manga I haven't seen any series that matches the appeal of my favorites.
 
an example of why I think superman is my favorite.

while I prefer manga (and only like certain runs of superhero stories), all-star superman is one of my absolute favorites.

honestly, it's probably my fave superhero story ever.
 
Except with massive eyes and weird hair and no lips and Japanese people who look like white people and WAT.

Yeah Asian (Japanese and Korean) people totally look like that. I've never understood this criticism. Also, the exaggerated eyes allow them to animate emotion more easily (look up Japanese eye emotion).
 
Superheroes: I don't really want to dig for "good storylines", nor do I want to have to ignore certain other works because "it's not part of the main canon" or "it's a different timeline" or so on and so forth. I like my stories to be holistic works, and rarely do I make an exception only in cases of multiple disparate adaptations of an existing work, such as the Maoyuu Maou Yuusha series. From an outside perspective looking in, it feels like there's only one true "canon", the original series, and everything else up to now is more or less officially sanctioned fan fiction.

Others: I read stuff on occasion, The Sandman, Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, Scott Pilgrim. I have others series I have on the back back log, like Hellblazer and Lucifer, because as interesting as they are, comics simply aren't a priority in my life. Part of this is due to art style differences, I never liked the West's fascination with photorealism, whether in comics or in games. I'm a big character design/art style kind of guy, and I'll read something simply if the art looks interesting, no matter the actual quality of the series. An example that immediately comes to mind is O'Malley's Young Avenger's cover:

BLO_YA.jpeg

Now this is the kind of stylised comic art I love.

I would definitely read an entire series with art like that. In a heartbeat.
 
Just the sheer variety present in manga and subsequently manhwa/korean webcomics. There's just so many chapters coming out/being translated every day. If you can get over the culture barrier, there has to be something for everyone IMO.
 
I've read far more manga in my day then comics but it isn't because I don't like western comic characters or want to read them. It's really come down to a cost vs content issue. I don't find western comics worth the money they're charged compared to a similarly priced manga volume or even buying a book like Shonen Jump (which I used to subscribe to for a while).

Western comics I found take far to long t really have anything happen. Splash pages, while nice to look at, annoy the hell out of me because it's wasted space that could be used to move the plot along. I hate decompression storytelling with a passion and it seems like that is only style of storytelling used in western comics. I can compare recent comics with some I've read when I was much younger. Today it takes 5 or 6 issues to do what could have taken one or two back then. To much of a time and money investment is asked when it comes to western comics and the end result I find isn't worth it.

There is also an issue of consistency. With a manga series it's the same author from start to finish (if the manga finishes). If and when I can find a western comic series that I happen to like enough that I can at least deal with the decompression after a while the writing and art team will change. Then characters start acting completely different for no reason other then because the writer wanted them to or the company wide event demanded it. Sure there are non-superhero or Marvel/DC comics. However I've yet to find a creator owned western comic that has held my interest and those use the same storytelling style anyway.

Then there is the need to sex and gore up just about everything when it at times makes no damn sense when it comes to western comics, especially superhero comics. At times some comics could double as soft core porn. I understand the western comic reading audience is a LOT older now and these companies have to keep them interested so they keep buying but come one. There is another reason but I won't list it here since it could take things to a place the thread maybe shouldn't go.
 
Now this is the kind of stylised comic art I love.

I would definitely read an entire series with art like that. In a heartbeat.

Seconds is released on July 15!

Then there is the need to sex and gore up just about everything when it at times makes no damn sense when it comes to western comics, especially superhero comics. At times some comics could double as soft core porn. I understand the western comic reading audience is a LOT older now and these companies have to keep them interested so they keep buying but come one.

errrr... in my experience, this sort of stuff is far more prevalent in Japanese comics. on average, stuff that is marked for the shonen demographic is way more violent than most of your DC/Marvel superhero comics.
 
while I prefer manga (and only like certain runs of superhero stories), all-star superman is one of my absolute favorites.

honestly, it's probably my fave superhero story ever.

Yeah. I also really liked liked "what's so funny about truth justice and the american way"

I'm an optimist and I think superman embodies optimism more than any other character I have yet to see.
 
Seconds is released on July 15!



errrr... in my experience, this sort of stuff is far more prevalent in Japanese comics. on average, stuff that is marked for the shonen demographic is way more violent than most of your DC/Marvel superhero comics.

It really could just come down to what one has read then. Also perhaps because western comics use color makes it stands out more. Those are really minor issues for me though which is why I listed it last.
 
Don't know about the manga comics themselves but I went by the manga section of a book-store once. there were a bunch of manga fans there, and not only did they look like they didn't shower regularly, when I drew closer they also smelled that way too.
 
If you only like manga, try any of well known completed series from Vertigo.

If you only like western comics, try 20th Century Boys, Monster or Pluto by Naoki Urasawa.
 
Western comics I found take far to long t really have anything happen. Splash pages, while nice to look at, annoy the hell out of me because it's wasted space that could be used to move the plot along. I hate decompression storytelling with a passion and it seems like that is only style of storytelling used in western comics. I can compare recent comics with some I've read when I was much younger. Today it takes 5 or 6 issues to do what could have taken one or two back then. To much of a time and money investment is asked when it comes to western comics and the end result I find isn't worth it.
I really don't think you can fault western comics for decompression vs Manga. That's like the default mode of storytelling in Manga
 
Don't know about the manga comics themselves but I went by the manga section of a book-store once. there were a bunch of manga fans there, and not only did they look like they didn't shower regularly, when I drew closer they also smelled that way too.

I could say the same about ComiCon attendees.

Fans are just gross people overall.
 
Don't know about the manga comics themselves but I went by the manga section of a book-store once. there were a bunch of manga fans there, and not only did they look like they didn't shower regularly, when I drew closer they also smelled that way too.

Do comic book fans shower regularly?
 
If you only like western comics, try 20th Century Boys, Monster or Pluto by Naoki Urasawa.

I think Pluto is a fantastic series but I think you get a lot more out of it if familiar with The Greatest Robot in the World arc of Astro Boy. Tezuka is one of the best starting points of manga recommendations as his breadth of work embodies so many genres, influences, tonal differences and intended audiences.

I really don't think you can fault western comics for decompression vs Manga. That's like the default mode of storytelling in Manga

i think it's definitely the default story telling for a lot of the big shonen series, at least.

i wouldn't say that of all manga (or western comics for that matter).
 
Speaking of Korean Manhwa, this might be a bit irrelevant but the author Kang Do-ha is actually my favorite visual storyteller. Since his work is online there is no limitations in terms of space and he uses it very well

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I'd really like to see more Mangaka experiment with what they can do too
 
Don't know about the manga comics themselves but I went by the manga section of a book-store once. there were a bunch of manga fans there, and not only did they look like they didn't shower regularly, when I drew closer they also smelled that way too.

*dead*
 
I think only liking either Manga or "Western Comics" is severely limiting yourself.

I read both, but I'm really surprised by how much hate is being thrown in the direction of Western Comics. Image by itself is reason enough to read them.
 
My main problem is in the art inconsistency in American comics, what you see on the cover is not always what you get on the inside. And if I start reading something with a art style I like chances are the style changes into crap the next chapter\volume.

I just like it when what I like stays the way I like it, with an exception from art evolution which I can accept if it happens organically.
 
I think only liking either Manga or "Western Comics" is severely limiting yourself.

I can understand preferences towards genre (lots of manga fans only read battle-shonen, lots of american comic fans only read superhero, etc.) but it is sort of troubling to see reductive generalizations on both sides.
 
I also wonder about how the pricing of Manga vs Comics is going to influence young readers who are just about to start reading. Manga is practically free to a lot of readers, considering all the scanalation sites that translate, collect and host the Manga. It makes it easier for someone to find Manga they like that they can then spend money on. Western Comics can be a lot more expensive to trawl through to find something they like. (There are libraries but that is a limited audience).


ЯAW;120313345 said:
When it comes to comics, does any other country put out slice of life stuff like Japan? Seems like most western stories need to have some kind of goal.

You just have to look in different places. There's Calvin & Hobbes, which is about the best Slice of Life comic you will ever find. There's Guy Delisle's books which are very insightful too.

Western comics = American superhero comics in this thread I see.

I wish more people would read stuff like Guy Delisle's great books:

[IG]http://i.imgur.com/N8F03.jpg[/IMG] [IG]http://i.imgur.com/jZmEj.jpg[/IMG]

[IG]http://i.imgur.com/zSjm9.jpg[/IMG] [IG]http://i.imgur.com/KHdJv.jpg[/IMG]

I very recently finished reading Burma Chronicles. Loved Shenzhen and Pyongyang too.
 
I tend to consider everything just comics and read whatever interests me, rather than intentionally seeking out western over eastern or vis versa. I dislike the western trend of photo realistic and "photo paint" style art, as it limits expression. I think artists like David Aja (Hawkeye) are the cure for this.

I am not turned off by eastern reliance on set character archetypes (so-called "tropey" characters) in storytelling in order to use the characters as vehicles for larger plot and big ideas. However many eastern comics do fall back on cliche characters to the point they're really lifeless.

I also agree with what's been said about western vs eastern pacing, and do prefer stories that don't feel as if they're rushed to fit within a certain framework. Though better western writers can avoid this, working around the limitations of the trade.
 
I don 't get the decompression thing. It's very common in manga as well. I'm guess it's because superhero comics are just not as well paced as manga are (outside of endless shounen), that makes it feel like an issue. Saikano used it to great effect.
 
I don't read manga, but I am getting sick of the endless reboots in Marvel and DC. Obviously not literally endless, but it seems like it happens often. Just gets tiring.
 
I don 't get the decompression thing. It's very common in manga as well. I'm guess it's because superhero comics are just not as well paced as manga are (outside of endless shounen), that makes it feel like an issue. Saikano used it to great effect.

That could very well be it. If it's in a lot of manga as well then it's likely being done differently and there aren't any as many pacing issues. It's extremely noticeable for me with sueprhero comics.
 
I don't read manga, but I am getting sick of the endless reboots in Marvel and DC. Obviously not literally endless, but it seems like it happens often. Just gets tiring.

This is the problem with characters that are meant to be icons that don't really "age".

A comparison would be the Japanese series Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, which has been going since the early 80s. It happened more or less in real time, with characters aging, dying, new generations arriving, etc.

This would not work for Superman, since there always has to be an iconic Superman.
 
I read whatever interests me, a common complaint from both sides though is that Manga is all shonen which it's not, then Manga fans say western comics are all hyper muscular superheroes, which it isn't. If you limit yourselves you need to step out and experience new things.

After all this,


Is from Canada.
 
I also wonder about how the pricing of Manga vs Comics is going to influence young readers who are just about to start reading. Manga is practically free to a lot of readers, considering all the scanalation sites that translate, collect and host the Manga. It makes it easier for someone to find Manga they like that they can then spend money on. Western Comics can be a lot more expensive to trawl through to find something they like. (There are libraries but that is a limited audience).

though what your describing is essentially illegal sharing of copywritten material, it is worth pointing out that manga as a whole is way cheaper and accessible than Western Comics. a weekly issue of shonen jump, which has tons of comics in it, retailed for under 500 yen when I was in Japan. furthermore, Shonen Jump's collected volumes of series retailed for around 500 yen as well. That's the cost of a single issue of a comic in America. In the terms of economical value, it's easy to understand why kids would have a preference to manga.
 
I read whatever I like when I find it. Manga, western comics, doesn't really matter to me if I find it interesting.

So far though, the best comic I have found and read is a western one.
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I have no problems with Western comics. Black Sad, Watchement, Hellboy, Sandman, pretty much everything Vertigo, lots of amazing stuff. And don't get me started with Franco-Belgian comics (or should BD be a more appropriate term?)

My problem is with Marvel/DC superheroes and their offshoots. I can't stand it. I read and liked comics when I was younger, but after I found manga and non-superheroes graphic novels I dropped DC/Marvel and never looked back.

The constant re-use of the same characters in different universes/continuities became a massive turn off for me: I cannot care any less for these characters and their fates. I developed a distaste for the pacing and the dialog as well, which both come out as forced in many situations in order to support the characters.
 
Because American artists can't into panal layout. It's like they are trying to put so much stuff into a small panal as possible because color pages are so expensive.

European comics are not that great in this regard as well but at least it's readable.
 
Because American artists can't into panal layout. It's like they are trying to put so much stuff into a small panal as possible because color pages are so expensive.

European comics are not that great in this regard as well but at least it's readable.

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This is untrue, it varies from artist to artist, just like Manga.
 
The use of colour has also come in in amazing strides in the past decade, something that I think manga would hugely benefit from.
You don't understand part of the reason why manga does so well, it's because the pages are largely black and white and the page size of a manga is smaller than a comic. They are able to produce manga compilation volumes with around 180-200 pages that only cost roughly 3 to 5 dollars. Compared to an issue of a comic with 20 pages of color but costing 3 to 5 dollars, with less story content, or to the somewhat equivalent comic volumes which cost more than 10 dollars, manga is easily more affordable which is why manga manage to sell a lot more.

Before art, manga and comics are a business. Artists who manage to make full use of the black and white can do just fine telling stories without color. Primarily, people don't read manga for the art. I'd be hard pressed to stick with something insipid even if it looked pretty.

I wasn't trying to cause offense, hence not calling y'all weeaboos but yeah pretty much, you as a manga fan appear to be into different stuff than I as a western comics fan. Just one look through your posting history shows me that. You're all about Japanese culture. And that's totally fine. But I'm guessing that's not your native culture, and so the choice to get heavily into it is a conscious one that you go into knowing that it's different.
That's your problem again, which is that you automatically assume anyone reading primarily manga over comics is a weaboo, being "all about Japanese culture". Which a lot of people who consume manga probably aren't. The second largest market for manga in the world is France, but it's not like they're "all about Japanese culture" considering how fierce they are about French culture.

IMO it's the same with any other form of cultural identification. "I am X", where X is "metal head" or "MMA fan" or "classical music fan" etc. IMO, a primary identification spreads out into other interests and is usually fairly predictable along certain lines, myself included.

Which is all a long way of saying "of course manga fans don't like western comics". I'll put it this way - I'm in to weird rock music, right? Therefore I've consciously opted out of mainstream music and won't like it if I hear it. This decision was probably in part informed by my liking comics as a kid, an activity that as an 11 year old was purposefully exclusionary (I knew my peers didn't like/get it) and that also led to me being into other niche hobbies along similar lines.

I think the same would be for someone who's a Japan enthusiast, one thing leads to another and before you know it, Japanese stuff is your primary cultural occupation, to the point where other more traditional forms of media don't appeal as much.
What I said is that someone who reads manga isn't necessarily a Japan enthusiast. You're making the assumption that someone who primarily reads manga is by default really into Japanese stuff, when it could be that they enjoy the stories and don't look much further in Japanese culture. There are some Japanese people who like American football but that doesn't mean they are 'America enthusiasts'. They could be 'football enthusiasts'. Labeling someone a fan of a whole country because they like one particular thing from that country is too broad.
 
I've got a huuuuuuuuuuuge collection of mangas but I also read comics from France and Belgium as well as some Americans ones.
And well for America sorry but if you're not someone like Jeff Smith chances are your stuffs won't be that interesting...
Even then that's not true, I guess the difference is that I tend to think of HxH, Saturn Apartments, One Piece, Akira or Pluto when I think about mangas while if you tell me about US comics I tend to think of stuffs like Spiderman, Superman or 4 fantastics that are more franchise churned out like factory cars where the original author is either dead or so old you know it's no longer the author's vision that's pushing the character in the franchise.
I mean it's kinda like Spirou or Gaston, the original author dead/lost right/lost interest and someone else comes up to tell what is basically his take on the characters instead of making original characters.
I'm bored of anything DBZ for exactly this reason : the story the author wanted to tell is done and over with no need to trot the rotten corpse all over to try to get more of my money (ironically DB is a manga I only have the 42nd volume).
 
Because American artists can't into panal layout. It's like they are trying to put so much stuff into a small panal as possible because color pages are so expensive.

European comics are not that great in this regard as well but at least it's readable.

This may be one of the worst generalizations I've read in this thread yet.
 
There are a lot of genres to pick from in manga and it's a lot easier to consume either in print or digital format. I pick up stand-alone works when it comes to Western comics.

American superhero comics have gotten ridiculously convoluted lately and I have no interest trying to get into that mess.
 
From the US, I hate the endlessly rebooted rehashed regurgitated spandex fetishist superhero sewage that seems to exist for no other reason than to prove Pavlov right.

From Japan, I hate the endless fighty-fight-fightentstein shonen enemy of the week who later becomes an ally and hay there's this tournament... oh, and FUCKING HIGH SCHOOLERS IN EVERYTHING

From Europe, I hate the disjointed style over substance artgasms that go nowhere and make about as much sense as drawing random word balloons on an artbook of technofetishism and bare tits.


Beyond that, there's an incredible amount of amazingly good stuff from everywhere.
 
Calm down guys, let's all be civil here.

American artists can do a lot of great things with panels as well, as with the recent Bendis(?)-Daredevil run or Sandman: Overture, but I do get the impression those are fringe cases.
 
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