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[curlyfriski]

The use of colour has also come in in amazing strides in the past decade, something that I think manga would hugely benefit from.

Eh grayscale has its own aesthetic appeal.

 

[Pirabear]

I prefer manga over American comics simply due to sheer variety. Never would've expected reading about cooking, farming, or sports to be engaging, but here I am. As far as action goes, I think manga also has better panel composition and sense of speed. Most cape comics I've read have very stiff looking fights in comparison.

The few European comics I've read seemed interesting, would like to read more of those.

 

[……forgetit]

Calm down guys, let's all be civil here.

American artists can do a lot of great things with panels as well, as with the recent Daredevil run or Sandman: Overture, but I do get the impression those are fringe cases.

General rule, the majority of everything is crap, TV, movies, comic, Manga, etc. I wouldn't say those are fringe cases, just creaters with a vision. Same can be said for the best Manga vs everything else.

 

[Mael]

From the US, I hate the endlessly rebooted rehashed regurgitated spandex fetishist superhero sewage that seems to exist for no other reason than to prove Pavlov right.

From Japan, I hate the endless fighty-fight-fightentstein shonen enemy of the week who later becomes an ally and hay there's this tournament... oh, and FUCKING HIGH SCHOOLERS IN EVERYTHING

From Europe, I hate the disjointed style over substance artgasms that go nowhere and make about as much sense as drawing random word balloons on an artbook of technofetishism and bare tits.


Beyond that, there's an incredible amount of amazingly good stuff from everywhere.

For your US example, one in a while isn't so bad the problem is that there's no goto place to start there as there's always a huge backlog you have to put up with (that they try to alleviate with reboots). So yeah :/
I feel like they're really nothing new on that front every time I try to look...

From Japan, there was a time where the mere sign of a school was enough for me to swear off the whole serie :lol

From Europe, do you have any example? I think I'd like to see what you mean here.

 

[PranooY]

When I was a kid, I used to read European comics such as Tin Tin, Asterix etc. I used to occasionaly read American superhero comics, but was not a fan. During my teenage years, one of my friend asked me to check out Akira and Parasyte.
Damn, that shit blew my mind and I was hooked.

Mangas like Akira, Parasyte, Berserk, Hajime-no-ippo, Battle Royal, Gantz, Monster are so amazing. So I prefer them over American comics, which is so confusing and less interesting. Mainly because I feel there are less genre to choose from (the superheroes shit is boring to me(feel the present shitty Naruto is better than them since at least in Naruto main characters die(even though maybe regenerated))), also there is no clear beginning-end.

This is my personal opinion. I'm welcome to trying more American comics, if u guys give me worthy suggestions.

 

[Kinyou]

Talking solely about superhero comics and shonen manga I always found the fights in mangas a lot more appealing. Like, they seem much more dynamic and entire issues are dedicated to just figuring out an opponents weakness. In superhero comic the actual fight seems to be one of the less interesting parts. (at least in my limited experience). Even those AvX spin offs that were solely dedicated to fights fell pretty flat for me.

Same goes for the art itself. Maybe it's just my preference but speedlines, distortions etc. just make a fight look so much more interesting. I don't really see western artist use that much.

Though of course are there some exceptions, like Tradd Moore who manages to put an amazing amount of speed into his pictures (I'd post some pics of the luther strode series but they're probably a bit too graphic)

 

[Enduin]

I like well developed stories with a set start and finish that develops its story and characters. I like a consistent art style and writing. Manga more often than not offer this than American comics, at least among the big DC/Marvel franchises.

I want to like American super hero comics. I really enjoy those kinds of things, but the practices of DC and Marvel just suck the life out of them for me. The writing is normally really bad and the art is all over the place. "Good" runs and arcs are barely a half dozen issues and the whole shared universe aspect just ruins it for me, even if there are some cool things done with it from time to time.

My favorite comic series are stuff like Pluto, Monster,20th Century Boys, Billy Bat, Berserk, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, Akira, DragonBall, Battle Royale and stuff like that. And then US stuff are things like Fables, Watchmen, Sandman, Rising Stars, The Invisibles, The Walking Dead, Y the Last Man, Preacher and others.

I like stuff like All Star Superman, Red Son and a bunch of the iconic Batman runs, but you never see any of those big super hero franchises get the kind of treatment with the same author and artist for 50+ run. That's why I lean more towards stuff from Image and Vertigo than mainline DC/Marvel.

 

[Haly]

I prefer manga over American comics simply due to sheer variety. Never would've expected reading about cooking, farming, or sports to be engaging, but here I am. As far as action goes, I think manga also has better panel composition and sense of speed. Most cape comics I've read have very stiff looking fights in comparison.

This is pretty big sticking point for me as well, and one of the most glaring flaws of superhero comics versus their Japanese analogue, battle shounen:

What a superhero fight typically looks like, from what little I've seen here and there:

Meanwhile, in Japan:

EDIT: With individual frames to make it more clear what I'm talking about:

(Obviously, not every manga artist can be Murata Yuusuke, but I feel that, in general, Japanese artists just have a better grasp of motion than their Western counterparts.)

 

[Blargonaut]

Superheroes: I don't really want to dig for "good storylines", nor do I want to have to ignore certain other works because "it's not part of the main canon" or "it's a different timeline" or so on and so forth. I like my stories to be holistic works, and rarely do I make an exception only in cases of multiple disparate adaptations of an existing work, such as the Maoyuu Maou Yuusha series. From an outside perspective looking in, it feels like there's only one true "canon", the original series, and everything else up to now is more or less officially sanctioned fan fiction.

Others: I read stuff on occasion, The Sandman, Watchmen, The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, Scott Pilgrim. I have others series I have on the back back log, like Hellblazer and Lucifer, because as interesting as they are, comics simply aren't a priority in my life. Part of this is due to art style differences, I never liked the West's fascination with photorealism, whether in comics or in games. I'm a big character design/art style kind of guy, and I'll read something simply if the art looks interesting, no matter the actual quality of the series. An example that immediately comes to mind is O'Malley's Young Avenger's cover:

I was really disappointed to find out he wasn't doing an entire comic, because I would've definitely read that. What I like most about this cover is how you can see the personalities of all the team members reflected in the art. It's cartoony, yes, but visually, it conveys far more information about the story than something like:

(Which is still a good cover, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't have the same narrative impact as O'Malley's.)

Communicating story through art is drastically more difficult to do with photorealistic art, because our brains have different standards for abstracted faces and realistic ones. It's why cartoons characters can behave in ways LA actors can't, without breaking immersion or just becoming cringeworthy.

 

[Mael]

Seriously there's stuffs like Zetman which is supposed to be Katsura's take on superhero comics...
And well

I take it Katsura has only read gritty grimdark stuffs
And by god the details in his stuffs!
As good as ever.

 

[Alcotholic]

I think there's something to be said about the digestibility of certain comics. Japanese comics could be comparable to a cheap wine-- you guzzle it to get drunk. You can go through a lot of them in one sitting and they are much easier to take in than most american comics. American comics are more like a fine wine. Much slower paced, but often much deeper.

I used to read manga's quite a bit. At some point I just got tired of japanese culture and dropped it all- anime, manga, etc. Then I dated a girl who took a graphic novel analysis class and lent me some really great books, like V for Vendetta, Black Hole, The Sandman, Fun Home, Maus, etc. I find them often more rewarding and deeper than stuff like Love Hina, Full Metal Alchemist, and Death Note.
I still don't really care for super hero comics though. I've read a few old ones and they're often pretty campy. The dialogue disinterests me.
If anyone has any good recommendations for great graphic novels, let me know.

 

[PranooY]

Meanwhile, in Japan:

(Obviously, not every manga artist can be Murata Yuusuke, but I feel that, in general, Japanese artists just have a better grasp of motion than their Western counterparts.)

What is this from? Is it any good?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

(Obviously, not every manga artist can be Murata Yuusuke, but I feel that, in general, Japanese artists just have a better grasp of motion than their Western counterparts.)

The big difference is Yuusuke gets many pages to do that one sequence on. The entire chapter is basically that one sequence right there.

In many American mainstream comics, you got 20-22 pages a month, and you can't spend them all on a fight sequence. You have to make every panel count for maximum efficiency. You have to pick your moments, and you can tell exactly the moments that happen between this panel:

and this panel:

 

[Mael]

I think there's something to be said about the digestibility of certain comics. Japanese comics could be comparable to a cheap wine-- you guzzle it to get drunk. You can go through a lot of them in one sitting and they are much easier to take in than most american comics. American comics are more like a fine wine. Much slower paced, but often much deeper.

I used to read manga's quite a bit. At some point I just got tired of japanese culture and dropped it all- anime, manga, etc. Then I dated a girl who took a graphic novel analysis class and lent me some really great books, like V for Vendetta, Black Hole, The Sandman, Fun Home, Maus, etc. I find them often more rewarding and deeper than stuff like Love Hina, Full Metal Alchemist, and Death Note.
I still don't really care for super hero comics though. I've read a few old ones and they're often pretty campy. The dialogue disinterests me.
If anyone has any good recommendations for great graphic novels, let me know.

You are actually comparing a harem light hearted silly story like Love Hina to visual novels like The Sandman?
There's more to mangas than just what's popular in jump (and they occasionally do some really good stuffs there too).
There's also a huuuuuuuuge difference between monthly comics (Berserk, FMA...) and weekly comics (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Toriko) without talking about yearly stuffs (HxH) and other who delves in visual novels proper like the Taniguchis of the world.

What is this from? Is it any good?

One punchman it's as good as it looks.

The big difference is Yuusuke gets many pages to do that one sequence on. The entire chapter is basically that one sequence right there.

In many American mainstream comics, you got 20-22 pages a month, and you can't spend them all on a fight sequence. You have to make every panel count for maximum efficiency. You have to pick your moments, and you can tell exactly the moments that happen between this panel:

and this panel:

Murata does even less sometimes, it's just his crazy style really.
OnePunchman is a monthly comic (or even less sometimes) and it's really 20 pages per issue....and sometimes he feel like he's bored and does 50....
No one is like him really.

 

[Ultima_5]

I think there's something to be said about the digestibility of certain comics. Japanese comics could be comparable to a cheap wine-- you guzzle it to get drunk. You can go through a lot of them in one sitting and they are much easier to take in than most american comics. American comics are more like a fine wine. Much slower paced, but often much deeper.

I used to read manga's quite a bit. At some point I just got tired of japanese culture and dropped it all- anime, manga, etc. Then I dated a girl who took a graphic novel analysis class and lent me some really great books, like V for Vendetta, Black Hole, The Sandman, Fun Home, Maus, etc. I find them often more rewarding and deeper than stuff like Love Hina, Full Metal Alchemist, and Death Note.
I still don't really care for super hero comics though. I've read a few old ones and they're often pretty campy. The dialogue disinterests me.
If anyone has any good recommendations for great graphic novels, let me know.

Y the Last Man - Is really excellent. Its about 60 issues which you can get in 5 hardcover books. I'm in the middle of the 3rd one so I can't speak for the 2nd half, but so far its beyond excellent.

Hellboy - He's a demon detective. Alot of the stories are based on folklore and kind of one shots. They have beautiful library copies out now

 

[Pirabear]

Meanwhile, in Japan:

Lol, I was specifically thinking of OPM while typing that. Murata is a god.

 

[Chococat]

Good. Then it takes 10 minutes.

If I have to read supplementary material to understand what is going on in a book- there a problem. Supplementary material should enhance the main product, not be a requirement.

You should start reading X-Men, when a new Writer joins the serie. Seems pretty easy to me.

And how is someone new to the series going to know when there is a new writer? None of that information is easy to pick out on a shelf of graphic novels unless you know what you are looking for.

But, but there are Dragonball Z and GT! Its so strange an confusing!

Except for manga, there is only Dragonball, which covers the whole original story by the writer/artist Akira Toryama. "Dragonball Z" is a TV title to denote the difference between the young Goku stories and adult Goku. "GT" is a TV only invention and has no manga counterpart.

(Can I start reading Dragonball Z without Knowledge of Dragonball?

The general American TV audience had no problem understanding Dragonball Z without viewing Dragonball first because the writing was self contained.

I think not, I think its way to hard to get the information, why Son Goku is dead and all this stuff and why are there people with Ape-Tails and why are there so many Aliens so suddenly?)

Yes, cause there are these things called synopsis and character bios in the beginning or end of most manga- you don't have to go to an outside source. Typically- if a past event plays an important roll in a current arc- the writer will flash back to the important information or give an exposition dump to make it clear to new readers. They don't just footnote and require a reader to buy an out of print random issue from another series to get what is going on.

If you confused by ape tails and aliens- how you enjoy Wolverines various origins? Why did for decades readers accept Logan with metal claws, skeleton, and a healing factor without any back story what so ever? Some facts in any fantasy/sci-fi/superhero story just are accepted at face value.

I still dont understand the difficulty in using Google to search for a summary.

a) Some of us started reading comics before the internet was widely available and Wikipedia even existed. Again, if the book is so vague I have to refer outside material, then the writing is shit.

b) Stories are about more than a series of event. They are about how those events effect the character in them. You don't get that from Wikipedia.

Then buy a paperback with all collected series for the event. They are pretty common.

Using your Dragonball example, can you tell me what volume you would by to start reading the "Z" story? The Red Ribbion arc? The Cell Arc? Even as a fan, I could not off the top of my head.

But with a manga like Dragonball- I know I am getting the same Goku from issue one to end of 42. the change to the character evolve from the story.

With a comic series like Batman- I don't know which individual artist/writer interpretation of the character of Batman and his rogue gallery I am getting. Looking at shelf of Batman graphic novels- there is no starting at #1, because by #3 the creative team will have changed along with characterization. By #7, the Joker may be criminal mastermind spouting off bad pun, but in issue #15 with a new creative team may be a sadistic psychopathy worthy of a horror book. Superhero comics series even within a few issues of each other are not consistent to their own character archetypes.

I would say this a disadvantage.

It depend on series and genre. Good and bad works can be both produced by an author/artist with a single vision, and a group of creatives working on a singular property. It comes down to personal preference.

Personally when it comes to comics and manga- first and foremost- I want the art style to be consistent throughout the entire series/story arc. None of this changing artists in the middle of an issue. And the cover art better be representative of the art style inside (stupid variant covers).

Story wise- I'm cool with one writer or a team that is working together. I'm not a fan of switch writers every arc who have wildly different interpretations of the premise unless they are their own self contain works. (like The Killing Joke).

Over all, manga is generally more friendly to newcomers. Independent comic on other "western" titles are next if you have a good store that stocks them (in America). Superhero comics are hit and miss and have a steep learning curve to find artist/stories one likes. They definite require outside resources to get up to speed and to decipher which issue/books are required reading. That is cool if you are into that sort of thing and can be very rewarding.

However, if one wants to get into superheroes, I would suggest the various animated shows over the original source materials because they are designed to be understood by all ages and retell the best stories.

So people who pick up issue 527 of Detective Conan arent confused, why this little boy acts like a teenage dude? Or people who want to pick up Ranma 1/2 issue 787 why this girl can change into a boy?

Nope. Again because of the included synopsis in each book.

Your two examples are weak because cause Ranma is situation comedy and Detective Conan in a detective story that are written episodically. The over all history of the story is not important- the current mini story and how the character react is.

They are more akin to watching something like Star Trek TNG. In each episode it pretty easy from context to pick up Picard is captain, Worf is a warrior, and Data is android. All stories revolve around the adventures and mishaps of the crew of the Starship Enterprise. Later characters like Barclay and Roe don't change the universe, they just add a new character for the establish characters to interact with.

 

[Tyrant Rave]

You are actually comparing a harem light hearted silly story like Love Hina to visual novels like The Sandman?
There's more to mangas than just what's popular in jump (and they occasionally do some really good stuffs there too).

To be fair, it's no different than many people in this thread who are only talking about superhero comics

 

[Haly]

What is this from? Is it any good?

One Punch Man. It's actually a kind of parody/satire of superheroes. And yes, it's pretty good.

The big difference is Yuusuke gets many pages to do that one sequence on. The entire chapter is basically that one sequence right there.

In many American mainstream comics, you got 20-22 pages a month, and you can't spend them all on a fight sequence. You have to make every panel count for maximum efficiency.

Right, this is a problem with the format. At least in the world of manga, a monthly work still gets something like 50-60 pages to work with.

And it's not like Murata always needs 20 panels to something like that:

BAM.

(For the unitiated, the above is from Eyeshield 21, a manga about football handegg.

 

[Mael]

To be fair, it's no different than many people in this thread who are only talking about superhero comics

Well yeah but ignorance is no excuse for shitting on a whole medium either.
I'm still rather pissed that the only super hero stuffs I can stomach this days is something from Japan because I can't self contained stories where I'm sure it doesn't spill to 15 creative teams...

Haly the fun part about your E21 example is that no one is supposed to accurately knows wtf Sena just did here

 

[Faiz]

Meanwhile, in Japan:

Hahah wait wait, you are honestly comparing a fight scene from random Black Cat comic to a single scene that Murata essentially spent a whole chapter on, effectively animating it on successive pages?

NEITHER is typical. That is such an extreme comparison.

 

[cheezcake]

I think there's something to be said about the digestibility of certain comics. Japanese comics could be comparable to a cheap wine-- you guzzle it to get drunk. You can go through a lot of them in one sitting and they are much easier to take in than most american comics. American comics are more like a fine wine. Much slower paced, but often much deeper.

I used to read manga's quite a bit. At some point I just got tired of japanese culture and dropped it all- anime, manga, etc. Then I dated a girl who took a graphic novel analysis class and lent me some really great books, like V for Vendetta, Black Hole, The Sandman, Fun Home, Maus, etc. I find them often more rewarding and deeper than stuff like Love Hina, Full Metal Alchemist, and Death Note.
I still don't really care for super hero comics though. I've read a few old ones and they're often pretty campy. The dialogue disinterests me.
If anyone has any good recommendations for great graphic novels, let me know.

You've just compared some of the best western comics ever made to pop shonen manga, better comparisons would be to stuff like Monster, 20th Century boys, Akira etc

For recommendations definitely try out Saga and Y: The Last man, same author, both incredible, though Saga is ongoing

 

[Mr-Joker]

Meanwhile, in Japan:

EDIT: With individual frames to make it more clear what I'm talking about:

(Obviously, not every manga artist can be Murata Yuusuke, but I feel that, in general, Japanese artists just have a better grasp of motion than their Western counterparts.)

I must read this like yesterday, it looks awesome.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think there's something to be said about the digestibility of certain comics. Japanese comics could be comparable to a cheap wine-- you guzzle it to get drunk. You can go through a lot of them in one sitting and they are much easier to take in than most american comics. American comics are more like a fine wine. Much slower paced, but often much deeper.

I used to read manga's quite a bit. At some point I just got tired of japanese culture and dropped it all- anime, manga, etc. Then I dated a girl who took a graphic novel analysis class and lent me some really great books, like V for Vendetta, Black Hole, The Sandman, Fun Home, Maus, etc. I find them often more rewarding and deeper than stuff like Love Hina, Full Metal Alchemist, and Death Note.
I still don't really care for super hero comics though. I've read a few old ones and they're often pretty campy. The dialogue disinterests me.
If anyone has any good recommendations for great graphic novels, let me know.

I'll take self contained Western comics over a whole lot of manga to be sure, but then I'll easily take most manga over serialized Western stuff because the serialized western stuff manages to both sometimes seem slow while also feeling frantic and rushed due to the page limits of issues

 

[Alcotholic]

You are actually comparing a harem light hearted silly story like Love Hina to visual novels like The Sandman?
There's more to mangas than just what's popular in jump (and they occasionally do some really good stuffs there too).
There's also a huuuuuuuuge difference between monthly comics (Berserk, FMA...) and weekly comics (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, Toriko) without talking about yearly stuffs (HxH) and other who delves in visual novels proper like the Taniguchis of the world.

It is an odd comparison. I just threw some names out there, but in general I find manga's all lacking depth.
Edit: There are a few exceptions. I read Phoenix and found all of that pretty mind blowing. Osamu Tezuka is pretty amazing for obvious reasons.

 

[Mael]

You've just compared some of the best western comics ever made to pop shonen manga, better comparisons would be to stuff like Monster, 20th Century boys, Akira etc

For recommendations definitely try out Saga and Y: The Last man, same author, both incredible, though Saga is ongoing

Last man?

Spoiler

Yes I'm trying to plug a French comic that I like

It is an odd comparison. I just threw some names out there, but in general I find manga's all lacking depth.

That's because you're not reading the good stuffs.
If you value US comics to super hero comics you can reach the same conclusion quite quickly.

 

[Alx]

The big difference is Yuusuke gets many pages to do that one sequence on. The entire chapter is basically that one sequence right there.

In many American mainstream comics, you got 20-22 pages a month, and you can't spend them all on a fight sequence. You have to make every panel count for maximum efficiency. You have to pick your moments, and you can tell exactly the moments that happen between this panel:

http://images.sequart.org/images/Picture-seven.png[IMG]

and this panel:

[IMG]http://images.sequart.org/images/picture-eight.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

Well, manga can render spectacular motion in single frames too (one of my favorites is in Trigun, where you can see in a single frame the character kicking a rocket away... I wish I could find it online) It is one of the commonly developed aspects of the genre, with heavy use of speed lines and different effects.
Maybe part of it is made possible by the black&white publication, and also the practice of having multiple assistants for those. But action mangas usually give a better sense of motion than action comics.
In comics, a way of rendering complex motions that I like is when the artist draws different positions of the same character in a single frame, with a transparency effect. I remember seeing it in Spider-Man or Daredevil issues. It gives a good undestanding of the complexity of the moves, but doesn't have speed lines to convey motion.

 

[Haly]

It was mostly to shill OPM actually, I posted one of Murata's more memorable full page spreads above to make the comparison more fair.

I could go through all of the Ultimate Spiderman, which is where the Black Cat panels are from, and not find something that even comes close to Murata at his best. Something else I pulled randomly:

Latest fight from All Rounder Meguru:

 

[Kurita]

I must read this like yesterday, it looks awesome.

Yeah read it

 

[Mael]

Yeah read it

I still remember that issue, a lengthy color chapter just because
This guy is insane!

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I actually made a longer post about how fight scenes work in most american comics. Most of em stink, but there is a way to do them right

I think about the fight sequence more than anything. To be frank, most fight sequences in superhero books, even in otherwise very good ones, aren't particularly interesting. The pacing is off, or the storytelling aint there, or the choreography is wonky, or various other quirks.

The ideal fight sequences shouldn't be show-stoppers, but natural extensions of the characters and their stories and motivations. They should have goals for the people involved(and the audience knows those goals so they can be involved and not just passive viewers), they're built up and paced well, its clear where all the people and places they're fighting at are in relation to one another, from panel to panel there's a clear "flow", you can see how they got in that position and how one panel translates to the next. The panels should be stories into themselves, snapshots of important moments that build up into one longer narrative.

Here's an easy example from The King. Light on background, wisely free of dialog, has a bit of Kirby's exaggeration for maximum effect, but it tells its story quite well.

There's a clear beginning, middle, and an end. You can tell how the figures ended up where they are between panels. Kirby puts emphasis on certain limbs for you to follow, like Batroc's leg winding up in panel one and he misses wildly in the second. Batroc's sweeping foot and Cap's hand draws your attention in the fourth panel, right where he brings it down in the fifth one, then starts to get out from underneath him in the sixth one. Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.

But you don't have to be so conventional, and you can use your form to say something about the content. I hate to go back to the Morrison/Quitely well again, but those two guys knew what they're doing.

To set up, this is the new Batman and Robin's first night out fighting a Circus of Crime, including these martial artist triplets. Damian, proudly proclaiming his ninja/Batman heritage to anybody in ear shot, doesn't respect Grayson and thinks he can handle anything the world throws at him. Naturally, he's the first to leap to a fight.

Quietly goes for a "realistic" approach to his day-glo superheroes fighting wacky characters. This is part of Morrison's intention that Batman and Robin be "Adam West Batman directed by David Lynch", to make the silly and weird just a bit dark and twisted. He doesn't use comic booky sound effects or action lines but playfully uses his environments and characters to tell the story, like how Damian's leg arcs through the smoke or the cute SMASH with the wall cracks. I've never seen kung fu triplets, but the great attention to detail Quitely shows them with makes them more plausible, their actions more believable, and hit with more impact. When they go from ready to catch Damian to finishing pose, you buy into it entirely. He's always aware of the size and shape of the room they're fighting in and where they are in relationship to it and each other(notice the cop hat in front of them in the second panel and the cop hat behind them in the third is a good way to mark how close they've gotten in the space between panels). He shifts the panel sizes and angles to emphasize chaotic movement, but he also draws tighter and tighter on Damian's face, his options dwindling down, overwhelmed by what's happening, until that last calm but kinda sad close-up where the arrogant son of Batman and ninja masters realizes he might actually be out of his league. and then BAM an explosive forward kick in a big panel to end the introspection as Robin flees.

But for one reason or another, be it laziness, incompetence or otherwise, most fights in comics today are kinda whatever. You see them and don't really think about them and then they are forgotten about. There's a craft to the fight scene.

And there's a way to be unconventional about them even at the cost of drama. Gilen/McKelvie's Young Avengers is all about youth, cool, breaking the rules, surface textures and frothy icing. And every issue they never repeat the same design for a fight sequence and try to invent new ways to do them in the context of the larger narrative and how it reflects the tone and the characters

 

[Kurita]

I still remember that issue, a lengthy color chapter just because
This guy is insane!

The world doesn't deserve all he does for us plebeians ;_;
Murata :bow

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

That's your problem again, which is that you automatically assume anyone reading primarily manga over comics is a weaboo, being "all about Japanese culture". Which a lot of people who consume manga probably aren't. The second largest market for manga in the world is France, but it's not like they're "all about Japanese culture" considering how fierce they are about French culture.


What I said is that someone who reads manga isn't necessarily a Japan enthusiast. You're making the assumption that someone who primarily reads manga is by default really into Japanese stuff, when it could be that they enjoy the stories and don't look much further in Japanese culture. There are some Japanese people who like American football but that doesn't mean they are 'America enthusiasts'. They could be 'football enthusiasts'. Labeling someone a fan of a whole country because they like one particular thing from that country is too broad.

Not to derail this thread too much but I'm not sure why you're fighting this idea so much. Look at you - on the side of manga in this conversation, manga themed avatar (ie choosing to represent yourself to the community as being into manga), posting history mainly in manga or FF threads. If someone were to ask me what you were into, I'd say "Japanese things".

I would also tend to think Japanese Football fans would be America enthusiasts, yes. They would need to go outside of the mainstream in their culture to engage in the sport, it's a work of effort to track the things down and learn about them.

It's my experience that the things you're into inform your reactions to other things. I'm not seeing how this is controversial. You are into Japanese manga and are therefore critical of western comics because they do not fit into the cultural norms you've adopted. This is what everyone in this thread is doing from all sides of the argument.

 

[Riposte]

lol since when was Batgirl from a manga?

(Isn't that Cassandra Cain?)

I've noticed the best superhero comic fights, like the examples ViewtifulJC posted, are usually best as visual spectacles (in addition to the secondary purpose they serve). Rarely do they have you sitting there in the mind of someone all tensed up in the fight like battle shonen. In a direct comparison it can look they are rushing it out, which is naturally due to how they are printed.

 

[Tacitus_]

I read whatever I like when I find it. Manga, western comics, doesn't really matter to me if I find it interesting.

So far though, the best comic I have found and read is a western one.

Ooh, looks like cyberpunk. *checks google* it IS cyberpunk. Lovely.

And my local library has it. Extra lovely.

 

[Mael]

The world doesn't deserve all he does for us plebians ;_;
Murata :bow

I usually don't care that much about the quality of the art that much (my fav is HxH anyway and I liked his scribbles!)
But damn I love his work.

Not to derail this thread too much but I'm not sure why you're fighting this idea so much. Look at you - on the side of manga in this conversation, manga themed avatar (ie choosing to represent yourself to the community as being into manga), posting history mainly in manga or FF threads. If someone were to ask me what you were into, I'd say "Japanese things".

I would also tend to think Japanese Football fans would be America enthusiasts, yes. They would need to go outside of the mainstream in their culture to engage in the sport, it's a work of effort to track the things down and learn about them.

It's my experience that the things you're into inform your reactions to other things. I'm not seeing how this is controversial. You are into Japanese manga and are therefore critical of western comics because they do not fit into the cultural norms you've adopted. This is what everyone in this thread is doing from all sides of the argument.

Not really here in France, mangas are not really that stuffs you need to go out of your way to find.
Really there's a spot in libraries to find them but they're not this Japanese stuffs you here about that are not really part of the culture that people will look at you weirdly if you read them in public.

 

[Haly]

Maybe part of it is made possible by the black&white publication, and also the practice of having multiple assistants for those. But action mangas usually give a better sense of motion than action comics.

Here's the thing, Murata doesn't really use assistants on OPM. At least, not that i know of. Maybe some background scenes or effects, but for the most part, everything you see is all done by him, which explains why it takes to long for chapters to come out.

You can see him live streaming his work here, no assistants whatsoever on many of the most complex pages: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nebu-kuro1

And his take on Spiderman...

EDIT: Beaten by le kurita

 

[Finaika]

Wow, these looks lightyears ahead of what Marvel is normally doing.

 

[Gr1mLock]

As a fan of both I'd say the biggest issue with mangas in general is that it takes forever for anything to happen.

 

[Tacitus_]

Not to derail this thread too much but I'm not sure why you're fighting this idea so much. Look at you - on the side of manga in this conversation, manga themed avatar (ie choosing to represent yourself to the community as being into manga), posting history mainly in manga or FF threads. If someone were to ask me what you were into, I'd say "Japanese things".

I would also tend to think Japanese Football fans would be America enthusiasts, yes. They would need to go outside of the mainstream in their culture to engage in the sport, it's a work of effort to track the things down and learn about them.

It's my experience that the things you're into inform your reactions to other things. I'm not seeing how this is controversial. You are into Japanese manga and are therefore critical of western comics because they do not fit into the cultural norms you've adopted. This is what everyone in this thread is doing from all sides of the argument.

You can find mangas (well the most popular ones) right next to Donald Duck pocketbooks in your local convenience store here in Finland. Probably harder to find american stuff that isn't Disney/Spiderman/Batman than manga here.

 

[kurisu_1974]

This is the best western comic

No contest.

 

[mjontrix]

Plot progression.

And one true timeline, not 10 different ones for each group that are all different.

I'm pretty sure even a half decent mangaka and his team could create a superior story, plot and character development then the best Western comic from DC or Marvel period.

 

[milena87]

Bitches don't know about my Blacksad.

Yep, Blacksad is awesome. I loved the first volume so much that I bought the remaining 4 soon after finishing it.

Anyway, I like both western comics and mangas, but maybe western comics a bit more. I find them more varied.
And I'm reading pretty much everything that Image Comics is releasing.

 

[mltplkxr]

What got me into manga in the mid-90's are three things:
1. style
2. subject matter / story
3. bad guys not necessarily evil / protagonists who are not saints

I found the Japanese style much more dynamic and engaging. Also, American comics focused on "realistic" anatomy, which I don't care for, while manga had much more variety like chubbys, slims, girls with no boobs, etc. There's also a fluidity in manga that I find much more appealing. Japanese are also incredible mechanical and industrial designers and I love the design of things.

The stories also where closer to me. Searching for lost civilizations, exploration and adventure, losers, space operas, post-apocalyptic settings all touched subjects that deeply interested me. The other point in manga that blew my mind where enemies that had good reasons to be pissed, who had depth or who would share some values with the protagonist.

Nowadays though, there's a huge part of the American comic industry that are not superhero comics. There's ton of incredible stuff but I'm staying far away because there is so much stuff I'd want to buy.

One last thing. A lot of people are taking shots at Dragon Ball as a counterexample to all the criticisms against superhero comics. It's a bad example because DB has a consistent story line with a beginning and an end and it lasted somewhat like 10 years. A more apt comparison would be Golgo 13, which is started in the 60s and is still going. It is episodic and the stories revolve around Golgo 13 much than a setting with characters. Compilations of favorite cases where released, comprising of issues from different decades, and it mostly holds. That would be very hard to do with Dragon Ball.

 

[Daingurse]

I don't know, I read both.

 

[cheezcake]

Plot progression.

And one true timeline, not 10 different ones for each group that are all different.

I'm pretty sure even a half decent mangaka and his team could create a superior story, plot and character development then the best Western comic from DC or Marvel period.

Read stuff outside of DC and Marvel then, seriously surprised at how many people dont seem to realise that there's incredible works on both sides.

 

[BigDes]

Plot progression.

And one true timeline, not 10 different ones for each group that are all different.

I'm pretty sure even a half decent mangaka and his team could create a superior story, plot and character development then the best Western comic from DC or Marvel period.

It's posts like this that always make me sad about these discussions, where people on both sides of the argument like to reduce each massive medium into small genres. Western comics aren't uniquely about superheroes just as Manga aren't uniquely about Shonen/Moe.

The criticism that all comics have 10 different timelines for each group is only really a problem in the cape and cowl genre and those aren't the only western comics in existence, you could read comics for years without touching a cape. .

The reason I don't read manga over western comics is simply down to lack of exposure on my part. I know which comics I will love or at least will find interesting as I know where to go to get information about upcoming books or recommended books. With manga I don't and these leads to me guessing, sometimes I guess correctly ie Berzerk, Uzumaki, Akira, Biomega, Blame!, Ghost in the Shell and sometimes I don't.

I would probably enjoy manga more if I knew what was there and how to get at the stuff that sounded interesting to me, but all the manga boards I see tend to recommend books that I have no interest in, and since I have no idea of what to choose I tend to get stuck on the most popular stuff which tends to be either shonen/moe or awfully translated.

What I would love is if there was a website somewhere that let you choose the comics you loved and then based on those provide you with some decent manga to get started with.

As for the comment about a middling mangaka being better than the best western writer it comes across as mere fanboyism and is worthy only of a raised eyebrow.

 

[LuffyZoro]

The current run of Hawkeye by Matt Fraction has a lot in common with slice-of-life stories, and is fantastic. Here's the first volume (see, you can start at #1!).

 

[fredrancour]

As someone who reads a ton of both kinds of comics, it really feels like the majority of criticisms of western comics are made without having

Even just restricting the discussion to dc and marvel superhero comics inside the main universe, authors do get the chance to spend multiple years writing continuous story arcs with characters. The near-decade morrison spent writing batman, and the several years of hickman's fantastic four are things I've enjoyed as much as any manga, maybe more. Its not like people are only ever given a couple months consecutively. Yes, people are at the mercy of word-of-mouth to sort out good books with a character from the bad.

It is true that the available pagecount means that the best battle shonen have better fight scenes than the majority of capes.

Then non superhero stuff like locke and key, sandman, fables, or superhero inspired standalone stories like planetary .... shoot, I think planetary and sandman are both better than any manga I've ever read, though I know that I should probably diversify my manga reading.

 

[Haly]

I would probably enjoy manga more if I knew what was there and how to get at the stuff that sounded interesting to me, but all the manga boards I see tend to recommend books that I have no interest in, and since I have no idea of what to choose I tend to get stuck on the most popular stuff which tends to be either shonen/moe or awfully translated.

I feel much the same, except for the fact that I vastly prefer Japanese art to American art (and really, art is one of the main draws of comics/manga), but I can overlook that for a good story.