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[Xando]

Question is "why"?

Ps4 users do not deserve their game to be the best thing they can achive on ps4 hardware too?

Their money is less valuable?

Thats what im always wondering, i bought a PS4 this gen knowing it was the best console (on a hardware level) just like i did last gen with the 360.
Everytime i hear this parity talk i wonder if playstation owners are kinda handicapped by whatever reason.
For me it always seems like devs (or pubs?) are willing to do more for Xb owners than for Ps owners (pure speculation).

 

[Sorc3r3r]

That has what to do with technical analysis? Even if we get around the irrelevance of your post, what game has actually had platform specific missions that were actually good?

You answered for me, but yeah your points are the same i would have written.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

That has what to do with technical analysis? Even if we get around the irrelevance of your post, what game has actually had platform specific missions that were actually good?



Is your avatar some sort of nuanced satire at the XB1? I just ask with all of that horrible artifacting. Also you probably should show a post if you're claiming someone is saying something. I could say that you like cow's milk but you may be a vegan and immediately start shooting laser beams out of your eyes at me.

I understood that reference.

I won't let the parity issue impact my enjoyment of the game. We will obviously get a clearer picture of the situation closer to release or shortly thereafter.

 

[sinnergy]

No one is saying that it can't run games at 1080p 30fps, plus, resolution and framerate aren't the only things to take into consideration. 1080p 30fps with ultra effects vs 1080p 30fps with low effects are still both 1080p 30fps. It's not a static term.

Its like when some people say "the new console can't handle 1080p 60fps", that doesn't make sense because if you turn down/off enough graphical settings, any game could run at 1080p 60fps on the new consoles. I think what some people are hoping for is that the two current-gen versions of Destiny don't run at parity in terms of graphical effects, not in terms of res and framerate, because res and framerate aren't the only things that factor into parity. For example: the PS4 version should have a few little extras graphical touches, such as slightly better AA, or slightly better LOD due to it being the more powerful console. Yet both versions would still be 1080p 30fps games.

I don't want to act like an entitled brat gamer, but devs should get the most out of each machine individually. Gamers on PS4 shouldn't have their games gimped just because the other console isn't as powerful as theirs.

Who says they gimp Maybe this is the best they can do.. on both machines. Or there are other external influences at play, like there always are.. that's how the world works. Somethings just gotta give..

I must say that some posts I see here don't have a clue how software/games are made and what it takes to make them..

You just can't say, they gimped it, or they are lazy, or my beloved console is held back. (maybe it is, and maybe it isn't)

Let's say it's held back.. maybe it's because of a time-constraint, or being over budget.. who knows.

Also this posts is not directed at you, but more in general.

 

[BruiserBear]

Since it ran Tomb Raider at double the fps.. its a big gap.

It didn't really run at double the fps. It had a higher average framerate though.

Also, see my post on the previous page.

 

[Zombie James]

I'll wait for the final release, but right now it's not looking good for Bungie.

 

[MMaRsu]

I'll have to see them in action. I remember reading the discussions of how killzone and second son killed anything Xbox had graphically but after playing both not to long ago for me they don't touch ryse.

What. Both are clearly more impressive then Rise.

 

[Dragon]

I understood that reference.

I won't let the parity issue impact my enjoyment of the game. We will obviously get a clearer picture of the situation closer to release or shortly thereafter.

Oh I'm loving the beta, playing every chance I can get. It's more of a warning in the future, especially for a game like Destiny where I don't have the chance to buy it on PC (at least not at launch).

What. Both are clearly more impressive then Rise.

Ryse and many other launch XB1 games have some seriously horrible loading issues. Which brings me to my point about Destiny, the loading times in the beta don't seem to have been improved really. I'm wondering if the final game will be any different.

 

[DustyVonEric]

So there's all this talk about xb1 holding the game back but what about the fact it's a cross gen title that has to work for 360/ps3?

Well, Here's a quote from Bungie discussing parity of graphics and performance of Destiny on various platforms.

GamesBeat: Does the complexity of the art have something to do with that, or is it something else that means you have to target 30 versus 60?

Sussman: It’s a lot of different things. I could get really technical, but I’d bore you to death. A lot has to do with performance. We’re cross-platform, so we had to be very delicate with all four consoles, making sure they have the same experience, that it looks as good as it possibly can on all these consoles. A lot goes into that, from geometry to textures to post effects to particles to how many players you get on the screen. We’re always balancing that out to make sure everyone gets the same experience.

I feel it could be taken a number of ways. Interpret it how you will, people.

What's obvious to me though, is not every platform version could be as good as it could be.

 

[big_z]

Them IGN compressed pics lol.

I actually prefer the XB1 HUD not due to being flat but the angled design on the PS4 version looks a little blurry/overlapped on the icons, weapon templates and other areas. You can see in the pic below.

it looks like that on the ps4 because theres a chromatic aberration filter being applied. not sure if the effect is used elsewhere or if its simply missing in the xbox build.

 

[benny_a]

If only Activision gave Bungie the additional millions of dollars that a different AA implementation would obviously cost.

 

[Dragonborn]

What. Both are clearly more impressive then Rise.

Not to mention Ryse is sub HD and often has dips below 30. Why people continue to try comparing it to infamous and KZSF, I don't know

 

[vpance]

Parity wouldn't allow them to do that.

lf they parity it up in the end that would be the first time this gen, AAA game wise. SCE should be pissed.

Bungie can't flip on a damn switch for MSAA with 40+% extra GPU power? Really?

 

[Cornbread78]

So how many people here have played it on both systems to see/feel the differences? I mean, one of the big XB1 gamers in our store just ran out and bought a PS4 the other day (to play MLB:The Show) and got played the game on both systems. I mean this guy is a big unashamed Xbox fanboy and said it ran much quicker and "felt" a lot better and looked a lot better on his PS4, so he was switching his pre-order over to PS4 reluctantly because all his friends are on 360/XB1. Needless to say, that is big for him to make that switch being such a XBox homer.... Any of you that played both feel the same way?

 

[VE3TRO]

That's actually on purpose, as an aesthetic choice they have implemented chromatic aberration. You can see in the shadow of the tree in the xbox image, the slight red outline, it's just not applied to the HUD on xbox.

This is called chromatic aberration and this effect is not implemented on xbone.

Ok thanks, I dunno if I like it. I can't notice sitting far from the TV but up close its weird. It's like having 3D enabled but without the glasses.

 

[travisbickle]

it looks like that on the ps4 because theres a chromatic aberration filter being applied. not sure if the effect is used elsewhere or if its simply missing in the xbox build.

You can see on that xbox image, the red outline around the tree shadow, slightly purple at one edge.

Ok thanks, I dunno if I like it. I can't notice sitting far from the TV but up close its weird. It's like having 3D enabled but without the glasses.

That's a pretty good description, it happens in photography/film when a lens can't quite focus to get colours aligned so you'll see slight tinges of red, green, blue around the edges of objects. I do not know why they are designing it in games?

 

[i-Lo]

The XB1, even with 900p looks and runs well. Recent statements about upping the resolution to 1080p with the help of around 10% more GPU power means that they were already hitting 1080p but not the requisite framerate.

For better or worse, parity is here to stay. Destiny 2 will undoubtedly look better for obvious reasons including the chance that it will not be a cross-gen game.

Do I need to go into every single thread acting like I deserve so much better for my $500 GPU and how the PS4/X1/Consoles hold it back? I'd say that would get very irritating and I'm sure there are a few that want/would do it, but seem to hold off.

Point is you do do that; not in all but in many.

 

[MMaRsu]

It's actually is in a way. According to Digital Foundry sources, the GPU drivers genuinely sucked early on, and were part of the earlier port problems. Then you've got the 10% of the GPU being unlocked from Kinect resources, which developers can now use how they like.

Those two things mean the gap has actually closed somewhat. Of course a substantial hardware difference still exists, but these improvements to the XB1 SDK should make ports a little closer than they were at launch. In other words, 720p vs 1080p differences shouldn't be a thing anymore. 900p vs 1080p differences do seem likely going forward, at least for games that target 60fps.

PS4 will always be more powerful than XB1. No amount of new SDK'S or Kinect resource is gonna change that.

So you'll see more 900 and 1080p games on Xb1. But Ps4 will always have the edge and be able to display more. So no, XB1 is not 'catching up'. It's playing catch up but it wont ever get there.

I wish Bungie would have put some extra effort into the ps4 version.

 

[Night Angel]

It didn't really run at double the fps. It had a higher average framerate though.

Also, see my post on the previous page.

A 10% increase in specs doesn't seem like it would be enough to cause a change of resolution by 50%, though. I'm glad it happened, but I think you're overestimating its impact.

 

[Summer Haze]

Who says they gimp Maybe this is the best they can do.. on both machines. Or there are other external influences at play, like there always are.. that's how the world works. Somethings just gotta give..

I must say that some posts I see here don't have a clue how software/games are made and what it takes to make them..

You just can't say, they gimped it, or they are lazy, or my beloved console is held back. (maybe it is, and maybe it isn't)

Let's say it's held back.. maybe it's because of a time-constraint, or being over budget.. who knows.

Also this posts is not directed at you, but more in general.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said gimped, that makes it sound like I think it's been HUGELY held back, when I don't.

In terms of the bolded part, that doesn't really make any sense...if one console is more powerful then the other, yet they look the same, then obviously some of the power of the more powerful console isn't being put to it's full use. Maybe it's not as simple as that, like you say, but I don't see slightly better AA, or slightly better LOD as huge things that couldn't implemented on the more powerful console due to budget or time restraints....but who knows.

Also, I don't want the PS4 version to be "better" purely for bragging rights, or because I'm an insecure fanboy. It's purely about principle. I just believe that devs should treat each console individually.

 

[gamechanger87]

Sorry, but 10% more GPU alone (11.11% actually) is not enough to increase resolution from 900p to 1080p no matter who's the developer.

That's kinda my point. Are you saying that they are lying about it?

I'm saying that just going by the HW stats alone doesn't explain it all. You need to factor in familiarity with the system and their ability to fully leverage what is available.

 

[rjcc]

There's nothing better than reading threads complaining about gaming being all about graphics...and then reading threads where fans insist the only possible way a game can even look similar on two different systems is if one of them is gimped.


because they know anything about game development, on any level.

 

[teiresias]

Honestly, I don't see why this has to be either a parity thing or an "X1 catching up thing" the fact of the matter is that this game is cross-gen so I think that affects what was done with it more than any differences between X1 and PS4. I mean, the game is playable on 360 and PS3 obviously it's not going to harness all of the power of PS4.

The game is fairly fun though, but it is the first FPS I've ever really felt constrained due to FOV. I'm not usually a FOV maniac, but it gives me motion sickness sometimes.

 

[robertsan21]

Yay, another parity thread already now.

Ugh..incredibly annoying people.

It looks like it's going to be a great game...stop whining about a game that was going to bee 900p on the X1 managing to get to 1080p. People quite literally would not be saying anything if the X1 stayed at 900p...derp.

I find this to be such an incredibly ridiculous thing to actually care about (or at the very least bring up in every single Destiny thread). Granted, this is a performance thread.

Do I need to go into every single thread acting like I deserve so much better for my $500 GPU and how the PS4/X1/Consoles hold it back? I'd say that would get very irritating and I'm sure there are a few that want/would do it, but seem to hold off.

I don't get it why people are happy that a developer is aiming for parity. For this game it really doesn't matter due to it being a cross gen game but if I see this on PS4/one multiplatform games I will be disappointed. I don't like lazy devs!

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Maybe I'm alone (although I know I'm not based on other comments), but the game isn't exactly pushing the envelope for me graphically, it looks nice, but it's very safe from a visual standpoint, and the layout of the world screams cross-gen in design.

The most offensive thing about it is that they're only going to run it at 30fps, I think if there's somewhere that you want to point out parity between platforms, that's the place. Bungie clearly isn't comfortable using the extra power afforded to them for whatever reason, so while the alpha and beta have been pretty fun from a gameplay perspective, there is nothing about this game that screams "next-gen" to me at all.

While it'll probably do well for them because of the name behind it, it shouldn't do well because it's setting any sort of standard for gaming, it's a FPS w/ MMO trappings set in a pseudo open-world environment.

 

[MrAndySchneider]

So how many people here have played it on both systems to see/feel the differences? I mean, one of the big XB1 gamers in our store just ran out and bought a PS4 the other day (to play MLB:The Show) and got played the game on both systems. I mean this guy is a big unashamed Xbox fanboy and said it ran much quicker and "felt" a lot better and looked a lot better on his PS4, so he was switching his pre-order over to PS4 reluctantly because all his friends are on 360/XB1. Needless to say, that is big for him to make that switch being such a XBox homer.... Any of you that played both feel the same way?

This is some strange behavior. Oh, well.

My experience with the PS4 version is limited, I didn't spend hours upon hours on it, like with my Xbox One version. But it didn't look or feel any different. I prefer the XB1 controller, though, so maybe my observation is skewed.

 

[Amentallica]

Still amazed with some peoples perception that the PS4 is a super high end gaming PC and the XB1 is on the level of the Wii U.

That isn't what people are saying. There's a clear hardware disparity between the two consoles, therefore, logically, it should follow that the PS4 is capable of more than the XB1.

As for what someone else, or others have said, I don't think it's feasible to try to max out each console with multiplatform titles. We'll see those strengths with exclusives. In spite of this, I also think that Destiny's performance on PS4 should have significant advantages to XB1.

But whatever.

 

[benny_a]

There's nothing better than reading threads complaining about gaming being all about graphics...

You choose to enter a thread whose very purpose is about graphics.

If you don't like Digital Foundry threads, then you don't need to click on Digital Foundry threads.

 

[shandy706]

Point is you do do that; not in all but in many.

Can you quote me saying the X1/PS4 are holding back PC games? It's possible my memory fails me.

I've certainly said, in many threads, that "parity" complaints are annoying and that despite my GPU I'm not complaining.

Also, read the point of all my posts. The fact that there was never "parity" resolution wise, and that many (not all) complaints seem to focus just on that. Bungie didn't manage resolution "parity" on their own.

I don't get it why people are happy that a developer is aiming for parity. For this game it really doesn't matter due to it being a cross gen game but if I see this on PS4/one multiplatform games I will be disappointed. I don't like lazy devs!

I read their "parity" comments as a focus on equal gameplay/gunplay/story. If there was full performance parity then the X1 and PS4 builds would run at 600p (last-gen random guess res)

 

[Sorc3r3r]

Thats what im always wondering, i bought a PS4 this gen knowing it was the best console (on a hardware level) just like i did last gen with the 360.
Everytime i hear this parity talk i wonder if playstation owner are kinda handicapped by whatever reason.
For me it always seems like devs (or pubs?) are willing to do more for Xb owners than for Ps owners (pure speculation).

Maybe and I underline maybe, this big pub needs to have little differences between the two console where they sold their games.
Trying to help a platform holder in serious truble selling its hardware, so painting reality where there are little differences between the two versions of their games, for two hardware that now cost the same.
Isn't Activision taking some money from xblg too or it is a thing of the past?
It's a symbiotic relationship so there is no need and no reason to beat a button that is damaging one of your source of money.
And on ps4 the game is good enough....they'll buy nonetheless.

I'm too cynic.

 

[Chobel]

That's kinda my point. Are you saying that they are lying about it?

I'm saying that just going by the HW stats alone doesn't explain it all. You need to factor in familiarity with the system and their ability to fully leverage what is available.

I'm lost, and I have no idea what we're arguing here. Can point exactly what's wrong with what I'm saying?

As DF said, that 10% GPU shouldn't be enough to go from 900p to 1080p. So either Bungie had a bit of headroom (other than the 10% kinect reserve) in xbone but choose not to use it for anything until now, or there will be some cutbacks to visual effects in release build.

 

[T.O.P]

So how many people here have played it on both systems to see/feel the differences? I mean, one of the big XB1 gamers in our store just ran out and bought a PS4 the other day (to play MLB:The Show) and got played the game on both systems. I mean this guy is a big unashamed Xbox fanboy and said it ran much quicker and "felt" a lot better and looked a lot better on his PS4, so he was switching his pre-order over to PS4 reluctantly because all his friends are on 360/XB1. Needless to say, that is big for him to make that switch being such a XBox homer.... Any of you that played both feel the same way?

I'm switching between the two versions daily PS4 on a 40" Samsung F5500 , X1 on a W905A Sony 55"

i can't tell the difference and i tried

 

[greenegt]

I think this whole parity discussion is jumping the gun. Until we get to final release and DF confirms that both versions are exactly the same, there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Cornbread78]

This is some strange behavior. Oh, well.

My experience with the PS4 version is limited, I didn't spend hours upon hours on it, like with my Xbox One version. But it didn't look or feel any different. I prefer the XB1 controller, though, so maybe my observation is skewed.

He's a big sports fan and was really missing a baseball game to play, so he took his bonus check and bought and PS4 and The Show. That part made sense at least since 2K didn't make an MLB game this year. Overall, he was blown away by The Show more than Destiny, but did say he could feel a big difference between the two versions when he played them.

I'm switching between the two versions daily PS4 on a 40" Samsung F5500 , X1 on a W905A Sony 55"

i can't tell the difference and i tried

One on hand that's good to hear that they both perform well, but on the other hand, the whole "parity" between consoles must be tough for Sony to swallow when they are dumping millions and millions of dollars into marketing deals and promoting this 3rd party game...

 

[Guymelef]

If only Activision gave Bungie the additional millions of dollars that a different AA implementation would obviously cost.

You'll see, the more than possible PC version will ship with FXAA only.

 

[KageMaru]

Who cares? Most people are just bugged because the xbox one in that case is holding the other version back. And if they feel so, they are free to say it here imo.

Why gimp one version while maxing out the other? If they have limited resources I wouldn't max out one version while leaving much overhead on the other version. If they go for full parity, I'd be disappointed.

Who cares about the reality of game development?

No one actually knows that the XBO version is holding anything back. Just like no one here knows how easy it would be to push the PS4 version further, but people are just running with assumptions and speculations anyways.

What we do know is that this is Bungie's first multi-plat title, meaning they need to consider owners of PS360 and XBO, NOT just PS4 owners. It would be a horrible business move to not put the effort to make the other versions on par because a small group of PS4 owners expect everything to be better, finite resources be damned.

I understand wanting the extra power in the PS4 to be utilized, but I also understand that nothing in game development is easy and regardless of their (or our preferences) they need to run a business. As the generation goes on and the scope of development grows, we'll see the gap more and more. This is already an ambitious title, I don't think it's fair to demand more without knowing all the details.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Still amazed with some peoples perception that the PS4 is a super high end gaming PC and the XB1 is on the level of the Wii U.

Shit dev tools at launch on XB1 and 8GB GDDR5 RAM hype caused all this.

 

[benny_a]

What we do know is that this is Bungie's first multi-plat title, meaning they need to consider owners of PS360 and XBO, NOT just PS4 owners. It would be a horrible business move to not put the effort to make the other versions on par because a small group of PS4 owners expect everything to be better, finite resources be damned.

Exactly!

Thanks for pointing the bullshit out KageMaru. The real issue is how the PS3 version doesn't look the same as the 360 version.

 

[theDeeDubs]

So how many people here have played it on both systems to see/feel the differences? I mean, one of the big XB1 gamers in our store just ran out and bought a PS4 the other day (to play MLB:The Show) and got played the game on both systems. I mean this guy is a big unashamed Xbox fanboy and said it ran much quicker and "felt" a lot better and looked a lot better on his PS4, so he was switching his pre-order over to PS4 reluctantly because all his friends are on 360/XB1. Needless to say, that is big for him to make that switch being such a XBox homer.... Any of you that played both feel the same way?

I gave some quick impressions earlier based on switching inputs and taking turns playing each mission. To sum up:

Framerate felt identical
Bad black crush on XB1
XB1 definitely lower res

The black crush was the worst part. It kind of ruins a lot of the beauty of the game. But I HATE black crush. It always drove me nuts last gen when everyone said the PS3 versions looked washed out, but it was mainly because it was compared to the crushed blacks on the 360 or their TV settings to compensate for them.

 

[Caayn]

Them IGN compressed pics lol.

I actually prefer the XB1 HUD not due to being flat but the angled design on the PS4 version looks a little blurry/overlapped on the icons, weapon templates and other areas. You can see in the pic below.

Why did Bungie go for CA on the HUD in the first place. It doesn't make it look better at all.

 

[intheinbetween]

Thats what im always wondering, i bought a PS4 this gen knowing it was the best console (on a hardware level) just like i did last gen with the 360.

wat?

 

[mrklaw]

Destiny looks good, but it doesn't look spectacular. Xbone is probably the target platform. The added 10% will probably lower the amount of optimisation necessary to hit 1080/30. As for PS4, the game probably hits around that target with less effort.

The simplest and most likely explanation. Plus being cross gen helps keep requirements relatively low.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I'll have to see them in action. I remember reading the discussions of how killzone and second son killed anything Xbox had graphically but after playing both not to long ago for me they don't touch ryse.

Ryse was technically announced in 2010 and had at least a year put into it before that. They had a long time to work on that and aim for the 8GB RAM in the Xbox One. Keep in mind that it was 900p and not open world.

Killzone and infamous had nowhere near that development time and for most of their development only targeted 4GB of RAM.

I'm not saying Ryse isn't an impressive looking game, but we do need to look at each of the games development to understand them.

Personally, I do think infamous looked better given what it was doing (open world, lighting, time of day etc).

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

What we do know is that this is Bungie's first multi-plat title, meaning they need to consider owners of PS360 and XBO, NOT just PS4 owners. It would be a horrible business move to not put the effort to make the other versions on par because a small group of PS4 owners expect everything to be better, finite resources be damned.

Eh, I dunno, based on sales numbers lately, both the 360 and PS3 new games markets have dropped out, they're more than likely going to sell the most copies on the PS4, then XB1. Better to push that tech and give people a reason to upgrade IMO than saddle people with a game built on 7+ year old systems.

The more I play of the beta, the more concerned I get about the long term prospects for it.

 

[TAJ]

It didn't really run at double the fps. It had a higher average framerate though.

It was pretty consistently 20fps higher. Saying it was double is not entirely accurate, but it's not hyperbole either.

 

[Chobel]

Why did Bungie go for CA on the HUD in the first place. It doesn't make it look better at all.

My guess: In Xbone, Bungie are using one display plane for frame buffer and another for HUD, so CA only affects the framebuffer and not the HUD. In PS4 there's only one display plane (HUD+framebuffer) so CA affects all.

 

[BigDug13]

Eh, I dunno, based on sales numbers lately, both the 360 and PS3 new games markets have dropped out, they're more than likely going to sell the most copies on the PS4, then XB1. Better to push that tech and give people a reason to upgrade IMO than saddle people with a game built on 7+ year old systems.

The more I play of the beta, the more concerned I get about the long term prospects for it.

Cross-gen is definitely going to hold things back. Like Borderlands, you'll see "waves" of bullet sponge enemies instead of simply being able to throw "more" enemies at once at the player as the method of making the game "more challenging". It sucks to be held back by last gen on a highly anticipated game.

The graphics are not the problem with last gen specs, the lack of hardware grunt to allow more enemies on screen at once is a bigger anchor around the neck of this game. I personally hate fighting bullet sponges as the method to make a game more challenging.

 

[jim2011]

Ryse was technically announced in 2010 and had at least a year put into it before that. They had a long time to work on that and aim for the 8GB RAM in the Xbox One. Keep in mind that it was 900p and not open world.

Killzone and infamous had nowhere near that development time and for most of their development only targeted 4GB of RAM.

I'm not saying Ryse isn't an impressive looking game, but we do need to look at each of the games development to understand them.

Personally, I do think infamous looked better given what it was doing (open world, lighting, time of day etc).

Terrible argument. You obviously have not read up on the troubled history of Ryse. What was announced in 2010 for 360 was completely scrapped. It was originally a first person kinect game.

 

[intheinbetween]

Ryse was technically announced in 2010 and had at least a year put into it before that. They had a long time to work on that and aim for the 8GB RAM in the Xbox One. Keep in mind that it was 900p and not open world.

Killzone and infamous had nowhere near that development time and for most of their development only targeted 4GB of RAM.

I'm not saying Ryse isn't an impressive looking game, but we do need to look at each of the games development to understand them.

Personally, I do think infamous looked better given what it was doing (open world, lighting, time of day etc).

well I should add Ryse changed from the 360 project to XB1 not too long ago, plus it was originally a Kinect game (thing you can notice if you play it), so I don't think they had much development time as it might seem

 

[AmaterasuOni]

This is the power of the multiplatforming (unintentional parity). Just drop the last gen. While Destiny is good looking on PS4, it really shows that it's not pushing the limits at all. Colors are a bit washed up and the actual world seems lifeless. I doubt they're gonna polish it anymore.