Support NeoGAF

[joedan]

I hope people now realize that this new atheist movement is a faux cover to hate and no different than extremist religious folks. The old atheist is a much cleaner concept of how they really should live which is not believing but not hating either. Harris has forgotten one side is the clear aggressor, as per his argument its ok for Palestinian civilians go get it as long as Israel does its job because Palestinians are muslims so their loss is not really a loss

No, it really isn't. Pretty opportunistic of you to say that at this time.

 

[Zaptruder]

Is there any more context to that?

Yes... he put his foot in his mouth with what he thought was a fairly straightforward comparison between two forms of bad things.

The greater context is that it's possible to rank two things while still considering them bad.

And the context for that statement is that it's possible to think that calling for the destruction of Israel is worse than the foundation of Israel... but still think they're both bad.

And the actual reason he made that tweet was in support for a pretty good article from Sam Harris about the moral position of Israel v Hamas.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

 

[kmag]

Yes... he put his foot in his mouth with what he thought was a fairly straightforward comparison between two forms of bad things.

The greater context is that it's possible to rank two things while still considering them bad.

And the context for that statement is that it's possible to think that calling for the destruction of Israel is worse than the foundation of Israel... but still think they're both bad.

And the actual reason he made that tweet was in support for a pretty good article from Sam Harris about the moral position of Israel v Hamas.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

No offense but that's an awful article. The fact he's had to put explanatory notes on almost every paragraph should be an indication of that, especially since most of his notes don't really make much if any sense.

It's essentially an anti-muslim diatribe which repeats the human shield fallacy (only one entity has been proven to use Palestinian citizens as human shields and it's Israel)

 

[Zaptruder]

No offense but that's an awful article. The fact he's had to put explanatory notes on almost every paragraph should be an indication of that, especially since most of his notes don't really make much if any sense.

Made sense to me?

I don't know man - it seems as long as Hamas has a specific mission to destroy Israel, and the Palestinian people have a specific mission to not live in a secular state, then the war will never be resolved.

And as long as Israeli forces are vastly superior in strength, and Hamas prioritized the killing of Israelis over protecting its civilians... casualties for the palestinian civilians will continue to mount disproportionately.

 

[RustyNails]

Lord knows that that Richard Dawkins is just the biggest Christian fundie out there, am I right?

Christian fundies and New Athiests usually share a pretty common ground when it comes to middle east and Muslims. For example, Hitchens' support for Iraq invasion and Dawkins' current support for Israel.

 

[zeroOman]

Made sense to me?

I don't know man - it seems as long as Hamas has a specific mission to destroy Israel, and the Palestinian people have a specific mission to not live in a secular state, then the war will never be resolved.

And as long as Israeli forces are vastly superior in strength, and Hamas prioritized the killing of Israelis over protecting its civilians... casualties for the palestinian civilians will continue to mount disproportionately.

U talk as if Israel run by secular.. which isn't true at all

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Made sense to me?

I don't know man - it seems as long as Hamas has a specific mission to destroy Israel, and the Palestinian people have a specific mission to not live in a secular state, then the war will never be resolved.

And as long as Israeli forces are vastly superior in strength, and Hamas prioritized the killing of Israelis over protecting its civilians... casualties for the palestinian civilians will continue to mount disproportionately.

And that completely ignores the West Bank where Isreal is displacing, killing and denying basic human rights to Palestinans, even though they have a security agreement with Isreal.

 

[Skyzard]

Iran's supreme leader is calling for Muslims to arm Palestinians.

I wish Iran would send some form of protection at this point.

 

[RustyNails]

Made sense to me?

I don't know man - it seems as long as Hamas has a specific mission to destroy Israel, and the Palestinian people have a specific mission to not live in a secular state, then the war will never be resolved.

And as long as Israeli forces are vastly superior in strength, and Hamas prioritized the killing of Israelis over protecting its civilians... casualties for the palestinian civilians will continue to mount disproportionately.

Have you looked at Hamas list of demands for 10 year truce, and their position on 67 borders? You may rubbish it as terrorist lies, but its ludicrous to say Hamas wants to destroy Israel when over the last decade majority of their sugar fertilizer rockets fell off from the sky into the desert below. Even if I play along with this scenario and give you the argument, you still have to explain why a secular PA that recognized Israel sees west bank settlements every day.

 

[Quotient]

Iran's supreme leader is calling for Muslims to arm Palestinians.

I wish Iran would send some form of protection at this point.

It has. Iran has been sending Hamas rockets.Though don't think Iran cares for the Palestinians, they are just using them in their proxy war with Israel and the U.S.

 

[Zaptruder]

And that completely ignores the West Bank where Isreal is displacing, killing and denying basic human rights to Palestinans, even though they have a security agreement with Isreal.

That's depressing to hear.

Then I don't really know what to say, other than both sides are crooked as fuck, but one side looks worse from our perspective only because of their relative military competence.

 

[Hitokage]

One of the worst points is that without terrorism or antisemitism we'd only have a single state. One of the key objections raised against a one-state solution is that if Palestinians had full citizenship rights then they'd render Jews a minority, making Israel no longer a Jewish state.

 

[Zen]

Hence why the Israeli policy is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories until they are statistically insignificant. Why not a two state solution then? Because then they could not take the Palestinian land (for reference they feel that the West bank is the ~heart~ of the Jewish people). Israel claims that Palestinian land is ~contested land~ but that is bullshit under international law.

That's depressing to hear.

Then I don't really know what to say, other than both sides are crooked as fuck, but one side looks worse from our perspective only because of their relative military competence.

Hamas was enforcing a 2 year cease fire (by even hunting and shutting down extremist splinter groups within Gaza) that Israel agreed to, and Hamas was in the process of forming a Unity Government with the government in the west bank, that was agreeing to meet all the stipulations set out by the US and EU. Hamas has said that they would accept settling the conflict along the 1967 borders (that were agreed upon and Israel has continually violated since) and they proposed the following:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

This whole thing, this current go around, is because Israel did not want the Palestinians to form a unity government that agreed to long term non violence (Hamas for its part promised 10 years) because that would give the Palestinians much more credibility in the eyes of the UN.

So when those 3 teens went missing, Israel blamed Hamas and used it as a false pretext to arrest hundreds of people without charge and start operation protectiv edge, refused to share any proof of it with their allies (even the US state department says there is no proof hamas had anything to do with it) and now the Israeli chief of police has confirmed it was not hamas who kidnapped those kids.

 

[Armoured Titan]

Pat Condell at it again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHC8KC5cLs8

 

[Rawket Lawnchair]

Can someone from Israel, or who speaks Israeli/Jewish/Hebrew, translate this video please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkrGYhqTwso

 

[LNBL]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/gaza-power-plant-attacked_n_5629259.html

 

[Skyzard]

I'm surprised Israel hasn't created a false flag incident after their extremist operations to try and restore international opinion.

Probably don't trust their own government not to spill the truth.

 

[Chariot]

I'm surprised Israel hasn't created a false flag incident after their extremist operations to try and restore international opinion.

Probably don't trust their own government not to spill the truth.

They don't really need to, they just have to provoke Hamas. And this time it's even cheaper, when they took advantage of the three killed teenagers. I don't think that it was orchestrated, but they certainly seized the opportunity.

 

[enewtabie]

Iran's supreme leader is calling for Muslims to arm Palestinians.

I wish Iran would send some form of protection at this point.

Iran has been doing that for a long time along with other nations. Egypt stopped a lot of it,but they get plenty. Where do all those pkms,rpgs and Aks come from you suppose?
They are reportedly trying to get weapons from North Korea now.

 

[Elfforkusu]

On the subject of New Atheism for me personally I'm as strident as a /r/ atheist can be at times, and have had personal experience that justifies it to some extent, and have a low tolerance level for irrational thinking.. but it doesn't influence me to be bigoted towards muslims nor does it lead me to defending a out-right apartheid state because it has the pretensions of being a western democracy.

In fairness to the use of apartheid...

Did South Africa ever bomb the shit out of black communities' hospitals? I honestly don't remember.

 

[Zaptruder]

Hence why the Israeli policy is to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian territories until they are statistically insignificant. Why not a two state solution then? Because then they could not take the Palestinian land (for reference they feel that the West bank is the ~heart~ of the Jewish people). Israel claims that Palestinian land is ~contested land~ but that is bullshit under international law.



Hamas was enforcing a 2 year cease fire (by even hunting and shutting down extremist splinter groups within Gaza) that Israel agreed to, and Hamas was in the process of forming a Unity Government with the government in the west bank, that was agreeing to meet all the stipulations set out by the US and EU. Hamas has said that they would accept settling the conflict along the 1967 borders (that were agreed upon and Israel has continually violated since) and they proposed the following:



This whole thing, this current go around, is because Israel did not want the Palestinians to form a unity government that agreed to long term non violence (Hamas for its part promised 10 years) because that would give the Palestinians much more credibility in the eyes of the UN.

So when those 3 teens went missing, Israel blamed Hamas and used it as a false pretext to arrest hundreds of people without charge and start operation protectiv edge, refused to share any proof of it with their allies (even the US state department says there is no proof hamas had anything to do with it) and now the Israeli chief of police has confirmed it was not hamas who kidnapped those kids.

Well damn. So that really is a piece of shit article then. What's the deal with Hamas and it's call for the destruction of Israel? That doesn't sound logically compatible with what they're attempting to do now if what you write is true.

 

[Aaron]

Well damn. So that really is a piece of shit article then. What's the deal with Hamas and it's call for the destruction of Israel? That doesn't sound logically compatible with what they're attempting to do now if what you write is true.

Hamas did... over a decade ago. That's not the current policy of Hamas. Pretty much everything leveled against Hamas are things they've long since stopped doing or saying, or complete falsehoods of things they've never done. But if you control the media, you control what are seen as facts.

 

[Costia]

It is, yes.

That map is false. learn a bit of history before you re-post something you saw on Facebook/twitter.
Before 1948 the entire area belonged to the british mandate.
Between 1948 and 1967 the west bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza belonged to Egypt.
When the treaties with Jordan and Egypt were signed - they didnt want the west bank and gaza back. (currently the hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by egypt since the hamas is aiding the muslim brothers in sinai against the egyptian government)
the current map:

Here is what the egyptians think about the hamas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo

Here is what the palestinian representative in the UN thinks about his government. It is literally his job to defend them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8

On topic: AFAIK Israel did not deny the hit. The IDF warned the residents and told them to evacuate from the area. The hamas has urged the civilians to stay put and act as human shields. http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/4340.htm
Unfortunately the civilians decided to ignore IDF's warnings and obey the Hamas request.

 

[enewtabie]

Cnn is reporting Hamas not accepting cease fire developed by West Bank Palestinian Leadership. But an Hamas spokesman says it's not true. Who knows.

 

[Zen]

That map is false. learn a bit of history before you re-post something you saw on Facebook/twitter.
Before 1948 the entire area belonged to the british mandate.
Between 1948 and 1967 the west bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza belonged to Egypt.
When the treaties with Jordan and Egypt were signed - they didnt want the west bank and gaza back. (currently the hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by egypt since the hamas is aiding the muslim brothers in sinai against the egyptian government)
the current map:

Here is what the egyptians think about the hamas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo

Here is what the palestinian representative in the UN thinks about his government. It is literally his job to defend them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8

On topic: AFAIK Israel did not deny the hit. The IDF warned the residents and told them to evacuate from the area. The hamas has urged the civilians to stay put and act as human shields. http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/4340.htm
Unfortunately the civilians decided to ignore IDF's warnings and obey the Hamas request.

The top part is pretty meaningless but I wanted to point out that of course Egypt currently is no fan of Hamas because they are in the process of deposing and executing the democratically elected Muslim brotherhood. I would also point out that when the treaty with Jordan was signed they did not want Palestine because they agreed with the Palestinian assertion of independence and self determination.

Also watch this

Dr. Hani Faris, Adjunct Professor in the Department of Political Science at the University of British Columbia, President of the independent American think tank Trans Arab Research Institute (TARI), & internationally recognized expert on the Palestine-Israel conflict comments on the historical context of the maps.

http://youtu.be/TzWJDqYx6NM?t=3m30s

If you are curious of his other credentials

Adjunct professor UBC department of poltical science vancouver
Faculty associate in Asian Research in UBC
Poltiical science Kuwait univrsity
Served as faculty Center for Middle East Studies at Harvard
The department of poltiical science and institute of middle east and islamic studies at Mgill
History department simon fraser university

 

[Jag]

Has this HuffPo article been posted yet?

Haven't read this yet, but it's a good article and it's from a Muslim who grew up in a Muslim country. Pretty unbiased.

Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

 

[Chariot]

Unfortunately the civilians decided to ignore IDF's warnings and obey the Hamas request.

The IDF is bombing safe zones and UN shelters, too. There is no safe place, so people just stay at their houses or near them, it's as safe as any other place.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_74589.html

 

[nib95]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/gaza-power-plant-attacked_n_5629259.html

The international community has to do more, with or without US support. This is getting beyond the realm of allowing anything less. UN shelters, camps, vehicles etc under fire. This is an element of the entire international community under attack.

 

[Costia]

Cnn is reporting Hamas not accepting cease fire developed by West Bank Palestinian Leadership. But an Hamas spokesman says it's not true. Who knows.

Looks like people here aren't aware of this.
The palestinians aren't a single faction.
Hammas controls gaza. Fatah controls the west bank. The hammas and the fatah are enemies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

A few months ago the have tried to settle things between tham, but failed to do so. So for now there are 2 palestinian governments:
1) Fatah in the west bank - lead by abu mazen
2) Hamas in gaza - lead by haled mashal (who lives in qatar)

 

[Aaron]

Haven't read this yet, but it's a good article.

This is pretty much GAF:

Already discussed multiple times, and proven wrong on every point.

 

[marrec]

Haven't read this yet, but it's a good article and it's from a Muslim who grew up in a Muslim country. Pretty unbiased.

I love Whataboutism as much as the next guy, but this is particularly irrelevant given the decades long oppressive occupation of Palestinian land and the illogical support of Israel given by the USA.

 

[zeroOman]

That map is false. learn a bit of history before you re-post something you saw on Facebook/twitter.
Before 1948 the entire area belonged to the british mandate.
Between 1948 and 1967 the west bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza belonged to Egypt.
When the treaties with Jordan and Egypt were signed - they didnt want the west bank and gaza back. (currently the hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by egypt since the hamas is aiding the muslim brothers in sinai against the egyptian government)
the current map:

Here is what the egyptians think about the hamas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo

Here is what the palestinian representative in the UN thinks about his government. It is literally his job to defend them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8

On topic: AFAIK Israel did not deny the hit. The IDF warned the residents and told them to evacuate from the area. The hamas has urged the civilians to stay put and act as human shields. http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/4340.htm
Unfortunately the civilians decided to ignore IDF's warnings and obey the Hamas request.

how about u learn from the other side of this conflict

Dr Hani Faris: Historical Context of the Palestinian Maps: Fact and Fiction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzWJDqYx6NM

 

[Linkhero1]

Looks like people here aren't aware of this.
The palestinians aren't a single faction.
Hammas controls gaza. Fatah controls the west bank. The hammas and the fatah are enemies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

A few months ago the have tried to settle things between tham, but failed to do so. So for now there are 2 palestinian governments:
1) Fatah in the west bank - lead by abu mazen
2) Hamas in gaza - lead by haled mashal (who lives in qatar)

Seems it is you who isn't aware of what's currently going on.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...81d5c6-ea46-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html

 

[Zen]

Looks like people here aren't aware of this.
The palestinians aren't a single faction.
Hammas controls gaza. Fatah controls the west bank. The hammas and the fatah are enemies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

A few months ago the have tried to settle things between tham, but failed to do so. So for now there are 2 palestinian governments:
1) Fatah in the west bank - lead by abu mazen
2) Hamas in gaza - lead by haled mashal (who lives in qatar)

Are you coming in just to spread fud?

 

[collige]

Hammas controls gaza. Fatah controls the west bank. The hammas and the fatah are enemies.

No they aren't. They USED to be enemies.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas

 

[Jag]

Already discussed multiple times, and proven wrong on every point.

Including the parts where he says settlements and land grabs by Israel are wrong and will prolong the conflict resulting in an apartheid state? Or is he just wrong on the parts people disagree with?

 

[Dopus]

Haven't read this yet, but it's a good article.

This is pretty much GAF:

Please stop bringing this article up, it's absolute garbage and the points made in it have been addressed in this thread already.

Including the parts where he says settlements and land grabs by Israel are wrong and will prolong the conflict resulting in an apartheid state? Or is he just wrong on the parts people disagree with?

Amazing how you try and turn it around. Fantastic.

 

[Chariot]

We should ban that article and the picture of the progress of Israels land. As much wrong things costia says, he is right in that the picture is misleading and incomplete. Those two get posted every few pages and don't get less disattracting.

 

[Costia]

The IDF is bombing safe zones and UN shelters, too. There is no safe place, so people just stay at their houses or near them, it's as safe as any other place.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_74589.html

I have heard about, it was an isolated incided that is being reviewd by the IDF.
there was alao this:
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/hamas-rockets-found-in-second-united-nations-school/374874/
The UN found a hamas weapon stash in a UN school - and gave it back to the hammas.
So even UN safehouses are being used by the hammas.

The top part is pretty meaningless but I wanted to point out that of course Egypt currently is no fan of Hamas because they are in the process of deposing and executing the democratically elected Muslim brotherhood. I would also point out that when the treaty with Jordan was signed they did not want Palestine because they agreed with the Palestinian assertion of independence and self determination.

Also watch this

http://youtu.be/TzWJDqYx6NM?t=3m30s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood#2011_revolution_and_after
They were democratically elected and then proceded to undermining the democracy of their country.

Within a short period, serious public opposition developed to President Morsi. In late November 2012 he 'temporarily' granted himself the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts, on the grounds that he needed to "protect" the nation from the Mubarak-era power structure. He also put a draft constitution to a referendum that opponents complained was "an Islamist coup."[80] These issues[81]—and concerns over the prosecutions of journalists, the unleashing of pro-Brotherhood gangs on nonviolent demonstrators, the continuation of military trials, new laws that permitted detention without judicial review for up to 30 days,[82] and the seeming impunity given to Islamist radical attacks on Christians and other minorities[83]—brought hundreds of thousands of protesters to the streets starting in November 2012

 

[Zaptruder]

Hamas did... over a decade ago. That's not the current policy of Hamas. Pretty much everything leveled against Hamas are things they've long since stopped doing or saying, or complete falsehoods of things they've never done. But if you control the media, you control what are seen as facts.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Hitokage]

Hamas did... over a decade ago. That's not the current policy of Hamas. Pretty much everything leveled against Hamas are things they've long since stopped doing or saying, or complete falsehoods of things they've never done. But if you control the media, you control what are seen as facts.

Eh, it's important to distinguish between Hamas official policy and beliefs held popularly by Hamas members and officials. Such distinctions exist generally in politics. If anything, it just means a deal can be made even if they aren't happy about it and it might depend on their current mood.

 

[Zen]

I have heard about, it was an isolated incident that is being reviewed by the IDF.

Eyewitness reports from reporters on the ground have repeatedly disagrees with IDF assessments and this is not isolated incidents.

there was alao this:
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/hamas-rockets-found-in-second-united-nations-school/374874/
The UN found a hamas weapon stash in a UN school - and gave it back to the hammas.
So even UN safehouses are being used by the hammas

Only found in two already abandoned schools, please get your facts straight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood#2011_revolution_and_after
They were democratically elected and then proceded to undermining the democracy of their country.

Agreed, though it does not change what I said.

Breaks my heart to see an invader zim fan being a shill.

 

[Aaron]

Including the parts where he says settlements and land grabs by Israel are wrong and will prolong the conflict resulting in an apartheid state? Or is he just wrong on the parts people disagree with?

It's in how he frames it.

It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israel could end up as one in the future, he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.

So you see it's not Israel's fault they're oppressing Gaza. They have no other choice!

Bullshit.

Eh, it's important to distinguish between Hamas official policy and beliefs held popularly by Hamas members and officials. Such distinctions exist generally in politics. If anything, it just means a deal can be made even if they aren't happy about it and it might depend on their current mood.

The official stance of Hamas is a return to the '67 borders. How could they do that with the destruction of Israel? I think it's also important to have a historical context, and why Hamas might have called for such destruction at some point, and why they've changed their position.

 

[xclaw]

Any working live streams?

 

[Jag]

We should ban that article and the picture of the progress of Israels land. As much wrong things costia says, he is right in that the picture is misleading and incomplete. Those two get posted every few pages and don't get less disattracting.

So ban anything some people disagree with? Ban things that propose a dissenting viewpoint? I understand not agreeing with someone, but banning things because you don't like what they say sounds a bit ... extreme.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/gaza-power-plant-attacked_n_5629259.html

Have they blamed Hamas yet or are they are still in the preliminary investigation stages?

 

[furrygiblets]

Including the parts where he says settlements and land grabs by Israel are wrong and will prolong the conflict resulting in an apartheid state? Or is he just wrong on the parts people disagree with?

Wow

 

[AlphaSnake]

No they aren't. They USED to be enemies.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas

They're still very much torn apart.

Take American Republicans and Democrats and separate them by a factor of 10.

 

[deathkiller]

We should ban that article and the picture of the progress of Israels land. As much wrong things costia says, he is right in that the picture is misleading and incomplete. Those two get posted every few pages and don't get less disattracting.

The picture shows something that most people don't know and Costia clearly ignores, 40% of the West Bank is controlled by Israel and Palestine people are forbidden to live there. This percentage increases every year as Palestine people are forced by Israel to leave their farm lands and go to live in cities.

 

[Costia]

No they aren't. They USED to be enemies.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas

Are you coming in just to spread fud?

Seems it is you who isn't aware of what's currently going on.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...81d5c6-ea46-11e3-9f5c-9075d5508f0a_story.html

Nice articles. Too bad they don't reflect the reality.
I am aware that they have signed an agreement, but so far nothing has come out of it.
Abu mazen agreed to the first cease fire proposal by Egypt, to which the hammas replied that they weren't aware of any such offer.
If you think a piece of paper is going to make peace between the hamas and the fatah, you are mistaken.
The current situaution is that the hammas acts independatly and does not listen to the elected palesteinian president (abu mazen).