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[zeroOman]

Not suspition - images and videos from drones that are constantly flying over gaza/ You can even hear them in the live broadcasts - the constant humming noise.



It is a step to peace - it will happen eventually, but not now.

Have you read the article? Hammas are trying to set conditions for the ceasefire while refusing to meet any of the israeli ones.
there are currently 2 options for a ceasfire:
1) no conditions - both sides stop firing. Hammas refuses this and already broke several cease fires that were started unilaterally by israel.
2) agreeing on some middle ground about the conditions - wich is what the israeli and hammas leaders are currently trying to do/



This isn't the problem with the UN. Even without US's vetoes all they would do is to sign papers. The problem is that the UN lacks the firepower to enforce their decisions. Whenever a war breaks out - the UN troops are the first to leave.
If you want some kind of international force to be here you should be asking for NATO.

they never accepted the ceasefire.... someone is trying to make look as if Hamas broke the cease fires

 

[YoungFa]

Not suspition - images and videos from drones that are constantly flying over gaza/ You can even hear them in the live broadcasts - the constant humming noise.

Do they got like x-ray or something?

 

[Goliath]

Do they got like x-ray or something?

Think about an areal camera that can see activity. You know, people moving large boxes of missles and crates of guns from trucks to buildings.

 

[Quotient]

What do you mean by "tool of the combatants"? Can you clarify a bit?

Egypt amassed their army on the border of Israel while the UNEF watched on. Egypt eventually expelled them in anticipation of war with Israel.

 

[MistakenMobius]

How come UN is seen as being able to solve anything?
Do those guys had any success?
The only middling success are the one where the big boys are involved (US-NATO, Russia)

I mean
Lebanon: Failure
Israel/Palestine: Failure
Rwanda: Failure
Yougoslavia: Failure
Somalia: Failure
Darfur: Failure

I'm not even sure that they could maintain peace in a post partition Belgium.

It's also the worst block voting ever since Eurovision unless that 5 contestant have an über-vote power.

UN isn't feared by Israel, flavor of the month dictator or the big players

It's about as effective as the Nation Society.
The only point working is relief effort after natural disaster, they are pretty terrible at solving political issue.

 

[nib95]

This isn't the problem with the UN. Even without US's vetoes all they would do is to sign papers. The problem is that the UN lacks the firepower to enforce their decisions. Whenever a war breaks out - the UN troops are the first to leave.
If you want some kind of international force to be here you should be asking for NATO.

Nope. I don't believe this would be the case at all. Had the US not continually vetoed these UN resolutions critical to Israel, the UN could have worked towards stationing it's peace keeping military personnel in Palestine (which the Palestinian government would have agreed to), which would have no doubt prevented further Israeli land theft and occupation, and on top of that, they could have issued diplomatic, economic or military sanctions.

 

[Costia]

Those demands are perfectly reasonable. Again, it's a given that during a truce, Hamas wouldn't fire rockets. Can't believe I have to type that out even...that's what a truce is. They don't exactly have much to compromise on other than that.

Some of the demands aren't reasonable. For example the Hammas asks Israel to open the Rafiah passage.
If you look at a map you will see that this passage is between Gaza and Egypt. It's is Egypt's decision whether to open that passage. And if you heard about the Egyptian ceasefire proposition you will notice that it did not include the opening of the passage. (which is understandable since the hamas helps terrorists in Egypt's Sinai area to act against the egyptian government)
The hammas wants israel to pressure egypt into opening the passage. Egypt and israel aren't exactly best friends either.
I don't think it is a reasonable request. They should solve their issues with Egypt by themselves.

Israel only has one condition: making sure the hammas can't fire at israeli citizens. The current demand is to demiliterize th Hammas. Dont think it will happen. Hopefully a non-UN international military force can be stationed in gaza to assure this.

If anyone wants to blame israel for whats going on in gaza they should blame Israel for allowing the hammas to take control of gaza in the first place. It could have been averted. Abumazen could have been in control of both gaza and the west bank, which would allow for peace talks instead of war/

Do they got like x-ray or something?

Close. Advanced IR cameras and a few other things.

Nope. I don't believe this would be the case at all. Had the US not continually vetoed these UN resolutions critical to Israel, the UN could have worked towards stationing it's peace keeping military personnel in Palestine (which the Palestinian government would have agreed to), which would have no doubt prevented further Israeli land theft and occupation, and on top of that, they could have issued diplomatic, economic or military sanctions.

Out of what you listed only the economical sanctions might have swayed Israel. From a military stand point the UN are a joke.

 

[MacNille]

How come UN is seen as being able to solve anything?
Do those guys had any success?
The only middling success are the one where the big boys are involved (US-NATO, Russia)

I mean
Lebanon: Failure
Israel/Palestine: Failure
Rwanda: Failure
Yougoslavia: Failure
Somalia: Failure
Darfur: Failure

well, they weren't completely fucking useless in the balkan wars.

 

[Linkhero1]

Egypt amassed their army on the border of Israel while the UNEF watched on. Egypt eventually expelled them in anticipation of war with Israel.

I asked Jag, no offense.

 

[YoungFa]

Close. Advanced IR cameras and a few other things.

Then how come they killed the kids on the beach?

 

[maharg]

If you want to understand the conflict you have to look back at Egypts, Iran's, Jordan's, Syria's, Lebanon's, Israel's and the British's history in that area first. A simple picture labeled incorrectly pretending Palestine was ever a self governing state is misleading. It also ignores how little the other arab nations care for that area. They invaded it to better attack Israel during the 1948 war. They also don't want any of the Palestininans in their countries post 67. Egypt walls off Gaza as well.

It's a very complex situation in the middle east. That picture is misleading on purpose and explains nothing of current events.

None of those pictures claim Palestine was ever self governing, that's just some pre-conception of bias you've brought into it. It claims that there was a territory called Palestine (true) and it has been eroded since the early 20th century (also true). It does not make any particular claims about who caused this erosion or why because it's a fairly simple infograph.

Nor does it imply any transition from or to self-governance, because the state of governance in Palestine has been continuous in nature if not in controller -- it has been occupied the whole time.

Meanwhile, the post that triggered this discussion of 'banning' that picture was advocating a map of the 1967 borders as if they represent anything like the reality of the territorial extents of either side of the line today. Which is ridiculous and absurd and completely and utterly wrong. But ooooooh we have to get rid of the one that doesn't blame Egypt and Jordan for the 47 years of Israeli occupation the Palestinians are currently enduring!

1) no conditions - both sides stop firing. Hammas refuses this and already broke several cease fires that were started unilaterally by israel.

This is some of the most infuriating doublespeak I've seen in this thread and it comes up repeatedly. A unilateral ceasefire is not a thing, and claiming the other side 'broke' an agreement they never agreed to is like something out of 1984.

 

[Costia]

Then how come they killed the kids on the beach?

No idea.

None of those pictures claim Palestine was ever self governing, that's just some pre-conception of bias you've brought into it. It claims that there was a territory called Palestine (true) and it has been eroded since the early 20th century (also true). It does not make any particular claims about who caused this erosion or why because it's a fairly simple infograph.

Nor does it imply any transition from or to self-governance, because the state of governance in Palestine has been continuous in nature if not in controller -- it has been occupied the whole time.

Meanwhile, the post that triggered this discussion of 'banning' that picture was advocating a map of the 1967 borders as if they represent anything like the reality of the territorial extents of either side of the line today. Which is ridiculous and absurd and completely and utterly wrong. But ooooooh we have to get rid of the one that doesn't blame Egypt and Jordan for the 47 years of Israeli occupation the Palestinians are currently enduring!

The map implies borders - which isn't true. If anyone who looked at the map watched the entire video that came along with it you would have had a point. But as it is - being posted as a standalone image, to most people it implies things that the map's original creator did not intend.
BTW i am against the settlements in the west bank, but i dont think that they are an issue. ISrael withdrew from gaza in 2005 and demolished all of the settlements that were there. If a peace treaty is signed between palestine and israel the settlements in the west bank will be gone as well.

 

[Az]

well, they weren't completely fucking useless in the balkan wars.

Just a tiny bit less than usual.

 

[MistakenMobius]

well, they weren't completely fucking useless in the balkan wars.

Srebenica begs to differ.

 

[Quotient]

I asked Jag, no offense.

None taken.

 

[Skyzard]

Not suspition - images and videos from drones that are constantly flying over gaza/ You can even hear them in the live broadcasts - the constant humming noise.

That drone operator who killed those children on swings in the refugee camp needs to be put away for life.

 

[Dominican Power]

Israel only admits to bombing Hamas infrastructure.

 

[Quotient]

Out of what you listed only the economical sanctions might have swayed Israel. From a military stand point the UN are a joke.

The UN is useless without NATO member nations.

 

[Heshinsi]

Again, false. The 47 borders are the ones the UN, and by virtue international community agree upon. The 67 borders are used in treaty talks between Israel and Palestine (as well as the US) because Israel has stolen so much land since then, the 47 borders are no longer realistic.

To the second part of your post, that's just fearmongering propaganda, and choosing to ignore facts in place of hyperbole. Hamas has already agreed to the 67 borders, and stated they no longer abide by that charter, both of those things are fact. If Hamas has proposed and IS continually proposing a treaty based on the 67 borders and Israel's right to exist, you cannot say they haven't simply because of a decades old charter.
It's simply false. However, what is not false is the mounting evidence that it is in fact Israel that does not want to agree to the 67 borders, nor a sovereign Palestinian state.

Which part of the UN agrees with the 47 borders (I feel stupid for even saying 47 borders cause they never existed)? The only part of the UN worth a damn is the security council, and I doubt there's a binding resolution signed by the SC that calls for the drawn up, never implemented 1947 borders. Had the Arab armies defeated Israel in 47, would you also being saying that they stole the lands designated for Israel? How can Israel steal lands that were never agreed on, and they took in battle? Post 67, I can understand. But anything before that is horse shit.

Hamas doesn't represent the majority of Palestinians. They are a sister group to our own Muslim Brotherhood, who pose a threat to the Palestinian people, the Palestinian governing authority, and to the civilians in the state of Israel. Hamas doesn't have the right to dictate and attempt to negotiate border deals when they manage a mere strip of land.

 

[MacNille]

Srebenica begs to differ.

the keyword here is "completely".

 

[speculawyer]

The situation in Israel/Gaza is terrible. Seeing this horrible situation, the GOP have opened their hearts and have made an effort to send more support and money . . . to Israel.

WASHINGTON (AP) — While much of the rest of the world watches the Gaza war in horror and scrambles for a cease-fire, U.S. lawmakers are pressing the Obama administration to take no action that puts pressure on Israel to halt its military operations.

Many even have criticized the administration's effort to stop the violence that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 50 Israeli soldiers and three civilians this month.

"At times like this, people try to isolate Israel," House Speaker John Boehner said Monday. "We are here to stand with Israel, not just as a broker or observer but as a strong partner and a trusted ally.

"What does that mean? Well, it doesn't mean issuing vague, on-the-one-hand, on-the-other-hand statements. No, it means backing up our words and showing solidarity with our friend."

This week, legislators will discuss a $225 million request from the Defense Department to urgently bolster Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system.

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-war-us-lawmakers-full-support-055517701.html

And Ted Cruz fought back against that horrible "economic boycott" of Israel:

Until Monday, Sen. Ted Cruz was hindering the appointment of several U.S. ambassadors to key allies by vowing to block all State Department nominees awaiting confirmation.

The Texas Republican said he was releasing his holds after the Federal Aviation Administration answered his questions about its 36-hour ban last week on U.S. airline flights to Israel. Cruz had claimed the prohibition was an "economic boycott" of Israel to pressure it into a cease-fire with the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

Go Figure.

 

[Costia]

That drone operator who killed those children on swings in the refugee camp needs to be put away for life.

I agree with that.

The UN is useless without NATO member nations.

Niether the hamas nor Israel want NATO here. There tends to be a high deathtoll wherever NATO is involved. On the other hand NATO are the only international military force that i am aware that isn't actually useless.

 

[Toxi]

The problem with the UN is they come in with good intentions of helping people but end up becoming a tool of the combatants while also helping civilians.

I'm sorry, could you clarify this?

Because they'd have to be one hell of a fucking asset to justify tank fire at their shelters.

 

[furrygiblets]

Israel only admits to bombing Hamas infrastructure.

I for one am shocked!

 

[linsivvi]

The situation in Israel/Gaza is terrible. Seeing this horrible situation, the GOP have opened their hearts and have made an effort to send more support and money . . . to Israel.




http://news.yahoo.com/israel-war-us-lawmakers-full-support-055517701.html

And Ted Cruz fought back against that horrible "economic boycott" of Israel:


Go Figure.

These people are complicit in the massacre happening in Gaza.

 

[Quotient]

I agree with that.


Niether the hamas nor Israel want NATO here. There tends to be a high deathtoll wherever NATO is involved. On the other hand NATO are the only international military force that i am aware that isn't actually useless.

NATO involvement may be the only viable way forward. Israel withdraws from Gaza strip and hands control back to the People of Gaza. Hamas disbands and completely disarms. NATO steps in to provide security until the Palestinians in Gaza are able to take over.

 

[maharg]

No idea.


The map implies borders - which isn't true. If anyone who looked at the map watched the entire video that came along with it you would have had a point. But as it is - being posted as a standalone image, to most people it implies things that the map's original creator did not intend.
BTW i am against the settlements in the west bank, but i dont think that they are an issue. ISrael withdrew from gaza in 2005 and demolished all of the settlements that were there. If a peace treaty is signed between palestine and israel the settlements in the west bank will be gone as well.

There has never been a complete border between Israel and its neighbours, including Palestine, that was not in some way theoretical. Even the current security walls are only theoretical because of the presence of the settlements beyond them. So to advocate against showing stages of the 'border' because some of those stages are theoretical or merely proposed is to advocate against ever showing a map of Israel at all without pages and pages of context. This is not helpful to meaningful discussion.

As for the idea that Israel will magically decide to tear down the West Bank settlements just because they did for Gaza, I ask you (as I've asked a hundred times) why they don't do this now, if it's so obviously the right thing to do? If it's right, it should not depend on peace.

If I had any faith that the current government of Israel had any intention of *ever* removing the West Bank settlements, I might agree with you. I see no evidence of this, though. Everything points to them at the very least demanding that many of the settlements stay and thus leave any practical Palestinian state nothing but a series of exclaves that would be completely unmanageable. And this is assuming that they wouldn't just prefer to go full on apartheid if they didn't know it would probably finally result in some kind of an actual response from the rest of the world.

 

[MistakenMobius]

NATO involvement may be the only viable way forward. Israel withdraws from Gaza strip and hands control back to the People of Gaza. Hamas disbands and completely disarms. NATO steps in to provide security until the Palestinians in Gaza are able to take over.

No it would be a mess in 5 minutes: a Christian intervention force near Jerusalem? You might as well call is the 10th crusade and see a spike in terrorism in Europe.

 

[Costia]

There has never been a complete border between Israel and its neighbours, including Palestine, that was not in some way theoretical. Even the current security walls are only theoretical because of the presence of the settlements beyond them. So to advocate against showing stages of the 'border' because some of those stages are theoretical or merely proposed is to advocate against ever showing a map of Israel at all without pages and pages of context. This is not helpful to meaningful discussion.
As for the idea that Israel will magically decide to tear down the West Bank settlements just because they did for Gaza, I ask you (as I've asked a hundred times) why they don't do this now, if it's so obviously the right thing to do? If it's right, it should not depend on peace.
If I had any faith that the current government of Israel had any intention of *ever* removing the West Bank settlements, I might agree with you. I see no evidence of this, though. Everything points to them at the very least demanding that many of the settlements stay and thus leave any practical Palestinian state nothing but a series of exclaves that would be completely unmanageable. And this is assuming that they wouldn't just prefer to go full on apartheid if they didn't know it would probably finally result in some kind of an actual response from the rest of the world.

Not magically. Israel doesn't want to tear down the settlements "for free". There must be something given in return. That's how negotiations work.
And there already were a few settlements that were torn down:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses

The demolitions followed a an order for the destruction of 28 illegal buildings in three different settlements, in what Israeli media described as one of the biggest "evacuations" in recent years.

NATO involvement may be the only viable way forward. Israel withdraws from Gaza strip and hands control back to the People of Gaza. Hamas disbands and completely disarms. NATO steps in to provide security until the Palestinians in Gaza are able to take over.

Sounds good to me, but easier said than done.
The US failed to do the very same thing in Iraq.

 

[Dominican Power]

Israel shits over our cease fire efforts and we just let it slide.

 

[Toxi]

It doesn't.
In lebanon the UN were worse than useless. the IDF had to defend to escort the UN troops stationed on the israeli-lebanon border out of lebanon to safety. IT was the UN's job to stop this war - instead they ran away.
Edit: People in israel and in the middle east in general have 0 faith in the UN. which i think is understandable.

In 2009, Israel shelled a UN school with white phosphorus. I'm sure you know what what white phosphorus does.

So yes, your lack of faith in the UN is known.

 

[maharg]

Not magically. Israel doesn't want to tear down the settlements "for free". There must be something given in return. That's how negotiations work.
And there already were a few settlements that were torn down:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-illegal-west-bank-settlement-destroy-houses



Sounds good to me, but easier said than done.
The US failed to do the very same thing in Iraq.

Ah yes, this makes Israel sound so much better. Now instead of being stubborn, they're just using the displacement of people as a 'tool in negotiation'. Note that the settlements continue to grow while Israel continues to 'negotiate'. The largest one grew by 20% in the last 10 years. One of them sits smack dab in the middle of the West Bank and they almost built a finger of the security wall out to it.

They should not need anything in return. The settlements are wrong and using them as a weapon against the Palestinian people to force a compromise is doubly wrong. It beggars belief that anyone can consider them a non-issue in this conflict, but even if this conflict weren't around everyone with any conscience at all should be arguing for their removal with or without a treaty.

If I'm punching you in the face repeatedly no one thinks it's reasonable for me to ask you for your lunch money in exchange for stopping.

Also, I'm really curious what you think the Palestinians have to give in exchange for a state other than land.

 

[Linkhero1]

This isn't the problem with the UN. Even without US's vetoes all they would do is to sign papers. The problem is that the UN lacks the firepower to enforce their decisions. Whenever a war breaks out - the UN troops are the first to leave.
If you want some kind of international force to be here you should be asking for NATO.

It's not just about force. I do not have the list but it's been posted here, but the US vetoed some important resolutions that would have caused for an investigation into Israel war crimes and such. IMO that's very important. If someone can post that list, it would be great.

Edit: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123142814&postcount=355

 

[Zen]

Hey we are going to illegally take your land and destroy your homes, we will only stop if you give us something.

To say nothing of how Israel has strategically used the settlements (and more specifically the use of announcing new settlement plans) at key times to derail peace talks.

 

[Costia]

Israel shits over our cease fire efforts and we just let it slide.

It's the hamas that does, So far they refused any cease fire offer and were the first to shoot when israel tried to unofficialy prolong an existing humanitarian cease fire.

Also n case people here aren't aware of this:
Israel's population is 8mil. 1.5mil of those are Muslims. They are full Israeli citizens.
There are also around 100,000 palestinians from gaza and the west bank working in israel (when there isn't a war going on).
So in case someone here thinks that this is a jews vs muslims or israeli vs palestinians issue - that is not the case. The people are well capable of working together. It is a problem of Islamic extremism that while being a fraction of the population de-facto controls the Palestinian government.

 

[linsivvi]

If it wasn't for the UN many people living in Gaza would've been starved to death by Israel. It's the UN that provided the necessary food and water to the strip.

It's disingenuous to call them useless.

 

[Zen]

It's the hamas that does, So far they refused any cease fire offer and were the first to shoot when israel tried to unofficialy prolong an existing humanitarian cease fire.

Also n case people here aren't aware of this:
Israel's population is 8mil. 1.5mil of those are Muslims. They are full Israeli citizens.
There are also around 100,000 palestinians from gaza and the west bank working in israel (when there isn't a war going on).
So in case someone here thinks that this is a jews vs muslims or israeli vs palestinians issue - that is not the case. The people are well capable of working together. It is a problem of Islamic extremism that while being a fraction of the population de-facto controls the Palestinian government.

No it is a problem of Israel stealing Palestinian land with illegal settlements, illegal occupation and control over Palestinian territories, pushing people who have no other recourse to radicalize.

 

[Costia]

Ah yes, this makes Israel sound so much better. Now instead of being stubborn, they're just using the displacement of people as a 'tool in negotiation'. Note that the settlements continue to grow while Israel continues to 'negotiate'. The largest one grew by 20% in the last 10 years. One of them sits smack dab in the middle of the West Bank and they almost built a finger of the security wall out to it.

They should not need anything in return. The settlements are wrong and using them as a weapon against the Palestinian people to force a compromise is doubly wrong. It beggars belief that anyone can consider them a non-issue in this conflict, but even if this conflict weren't around everyone with any conscience at all should be arguing for their removal with or without a treaty.

If I'm punching you in the face repeatedly no one thinks it's reasonable for me to ask you for your lunch money in exchange for stopping.

It is a tool in negotiations and the growth of the settlement puts more and more pressure on the Palestinian leaders to reach an agreement. If Israel will tear down the settlements now it will only postpone the agreement.
You need to look on the other side as well. There are some things that israel must give up for peace and there are some that the Palestinians must give up as well. If Israel gives up the settlements of its own free will, the palestinians won't give up a thing. Morover, even if a Palestinian leader will be willing to give something up of his own free will to promote the peace, it will be considered as cooperating with the enemy among the palestinians and he will get overthrown - making all the advancement made up to that point useless. It is not only a tool in negotiations for israel's sake - but it is also a tool to support a willing palestinian leader. It would be considered as a huge achievement for him if what he does destroys the settlements. On the other hand if Israel will do it of it's own accord - it will be unnoticed and diplomatically speaking - wasted.
Israel has already tried a unilateral withdrawal and the destruction of settlement "for free". And instead of peace we got the Hammas. It just doesn't work the way you want it to.

It's not just about force. I do not have the list but it's been posted here, but the US vetoed some important resolutions that would have caused for an investigation into Israel war crimes and such. IMO that's very important. If someone can post that list, it would be great.

Edit: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=123142814&postcount=355

Important? Sure. But it won't solve anything. People will feel better about themselves for investigating and that's about it.

 

[Rollo Tomasi]

My Facebook news feed has become a battleground.

 

[Dominican Power]

They destroyed their power plant, Jesus. It just keeps getting worse.

 

[Sioen]

Nvm

 

[Toxi]

It is a tool in negotiations and the growth of the settlement puts more and more pressure on the Palestinian leaders to reach an agreement. If Israel will tear down the settlements now it will only postpone the agreement.
You need to look on the other side as well. There are some things that israel must give up for peace and there are some that the Palestinians must give up as well. If Israel gives up the settlements of its own free will, the palestinians won't give up a thing. Morover, even if a Palestinian leader will be willing to give something up of his own free will to promote the peace, it will be considered as cooperating with the enemy among the palestinians and he will get overthrown - making all the advancement made up to that point useless. It is not only a tool in negotiations for israel's sake - but it is also a tool to support a willing palestinian leader. It would be considered as a huge achievement for him if what he does destroys the settlements. On the other hand if Israel will do it of it's own accord - it will be unnoticed and diplomatically speaking - wasted.
Israel has already tried a unilateral withdrawal and the destruction of settlement "for free". And instead of peace we got the Hammas. It just doesn't work the way you want it too.

You cannot justify the creation and expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank (where Hamas isn't even in control) as a negotiation tool. It is inhumane to force people off their land because some other people in a completely different area are firing rockets at you and you want peace with that group.

It also completely distabilizes any attempt at peace in Gaza because they feel Israel will keep preying on them if they capitulate like the West Bank.

 

[Linkhero1]

Important? Sure. But it won't solve anything. People will feel better about themselves for investigating and that's about it.

It would be a step in the right direction. To say something won't come out of it is pretty naive. If what you said is true then the US would have no reason to veto any of the resolutions.

 

[Zaph]

Israel has already tried a unilateral withdrawal and the destruction of settlement "for free". And instead of peace we got the Hammas. It just doesn't work the way you want it to

Who would have thought putting people in a cage, then stepping out of the cage wouldn't end in peace?

 

[Dominican Power]

More shilling for Israel on CNN.

 

[speculawyer]

I heard some reports today where Israel is talking about 'toppling Hamas' once & for all.

I don't think they understand how this works. I don't see how that is possible. And even if Hamas went away, don't they realize that something similar would replace it?

 

[Toxi]

I heard some reports today where Israel is talking about 'toppling Hamas' once & for all.

I don't think they understand how this works. I don't see how that is possible. And even if Hamas went away, don't they realize that something similar would replace it?

More likely something worse.

 

[funkypie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_Bazaar_massacre

Some of you guys seem to like making light of nonviolent protests achievements. The fact is that these movements were met with extreme violence but they did not waver.



When did I say they would have been fine? I'm questioning if nonviolent protest would have been a viable path. Don't put words in my mouth.

sorry what does that have to do with what was being discussed. You posted a massacre from the 1930s that had nothing to do with ghandi

 

[jakonovski]

I heard some reports today where Israel is talking about 'toppling Hamas' once & for all.

I don't think they understand how this works. I don't see how that is possible. And even if Hamas went away, don't they realize that something similar would replace it?

They do realize that, and that's what's scary about this.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Yeah, if their real goal is eliminating or reducing extremist violence then this campaign with it's disproportionate civilian death toll is incredibly counterproductive.