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[Zekes!]

Puzzles have become a fundamental aspect of Zelda to me.

That said, since TP I've wanted them to design puzzles with multiple solutions. This could help make the games less linear too as multiple items could be used to solve one puzzle. I'm sure this would be challenging to design, but it'd be pretty cool I think.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Puzzles are by far the most important part of the Zelda games for me.

Why would anyone play the series for combat? There are many, many better combat systems out there. And there are many games better at exploration, or story, or production values.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Zelda 1 and 2. No puzzles (unless you consider mazes and push this block here to be puzzles). Great games.

I want to get lost in Zelda again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOMkQh7f7Q

Cheesy 80s commercial, but no mention of puzzles at all. This is what I want from my Zelda.

Zelda 2 = BARELY a Zelda game. Good game, sure, but it's more of a weird cross between Castlevania and Final Fantasy than a Zelda game.

Zelda 1 didn't have puzzles aside from exploration.

But modern Zelda games have basically used the Zelda 3/ALttP formula, even OoT was basically ALttP 3D.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Actual zelda gameplay is not connecting with newer audiences and sells are showing It.

This is not true at all...
LoZ games are still steady 3-4 millions sellers.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I think that could be an interesting formula for Castlevania, more than for Zelda.

I'm not sure how a open-world action platformer would work tbh but with Lords of Shadow 2 tanking and seemingly being dreadful, I'd take anything.

 

[revolverjgw]

It can't be a Zelda game without puzzles. That brand of action and puzzle-based adventure is so rare, unfortunately

 

[PVR]

Doesn't Skyrim already allow third person and have big dragon bosses and shit? Just play Skyrim.

I don't understand why people wanna take an already existing game and bend/mold it into another game that already exists.

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

 

[Heroman]

Zelda is a puzzle game with a adventure element.

 

[Maffis]

Puzzles are a huge factor for me. But I actually kinda like them when they're easy to solve and makes it a smooth sailing so to speak. But sometimes I wish Zelda bumped up it's combat. Puzzles don't have to get harder. I find them creative enough, but the combat has always been too forgiving and straight forward. I'm really hoping the next Zelda game has a deeper system for battles.

 

[-MD-]

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

I haven't played Skyward Sword but I don't see how one would make the leap from the Zelda series to the Elder Scrolls series as they pretty much share no similarities.

Were you ever a fan of Zelda in the first place? If so which games did you like and why?

 

[Ansatz]

Follow-up question: do you think it is better when puzzles are necessary to move forward, or when they are optional for side benefits, like heart pieces? What makes for a good puzzle?

Optional or mandatory doesn't matter for me, as long as it's in the game and structured in a sensible way. The 3 star system in Mario is a perfect example of that, anyone can reach the flagpole but there's still the depth and cleverness I'm looking for tucked away in the levels.

In the case of Zelda it's quiet different because I love the 2D entries where the overworld is essentially a puzzle by itself, I'm not a fan of the hub-based 3D overworlds even though I loved individual areas. Also temples need to stay intact as they are, so you can't just pull a 3 star system like that without compromising what I like about the series.

A good puzzle is something that makes me think in new ways. Pushing blocks is too straight forward for example, I can accept it if there's a new gimmick like ice floor or sunlight bocks but preferably entirely new puzzles like wall merging which changes how you approach exploration and let's you view the world from a new perspective.

 

[DNAbro]

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

Zelda series has always been a puzzle/adventure game. And I'm confused why you are playing TES for action. The gameplay in Skyrim is god awful and I absolutely adore that game.

 

[hemo memo]

What is Zelda without buzzles?

 

[-MD-]

Zelda series has always been a puzzle/adventure game. And I'm confused why you are playing TES for action. The gameplay in Skyrim is god awful and I absolutely adore that game.

This too, I have no idea why someone would play Elder Scrolls for the gameplay, the combat in those games is mediocre in every sense of the word.

 

[Coffee Dog]

What is Zelda without buzzles?

The Elder Scrolls, apparently.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

The sad thing is The elder scrolls games have worse combat mechanics than even zelda but the world they create is fantastic.

Spoiler

Except the dungeons are copy paste garbage and nowhere near zelda levels.

 

[jblank83]

Zelda has become too puzzle focused. Exploration should be more interesting, dangerous, and rewarding than it is. Environmental navigation and puzzles should be more organic, less artificial. Think Metroid, not Skyward Sword, or A Link to the Past which focuses on item gating and multi-layered areas within areas.

I'm a puzzle game and adventure game fan, games like Layton and Virtue's Last Reward. But when Zelda makes everything a trivial little geometry puzzle it becomes tedious. Worse, it loses that sense of exploration and adventure that the series relies on.

 

[SerTapTap]

I prefer the items from a metroidvania view than for the puzzles honestly. Playing Link Between Worlds and Wind Waker HD this last year I couldn't help but notice the puzzles were almost the least interesting or fun aspect. Though I loved the Gerudo Training Ground. Maybe the more recent games just don't have that great of puzzles honestly. The 1 item + wall merge puzzle design of ALBW was pretty disapointing.

 

[PVR]

This is not true at all...
LoZ games are still steady 3-4 millions sellers.

What I want to say is that the series is not growing sale wise. Sorry for my early chose of words.

 

[jblank83]

What I want to say is that the series is not growing sale wise. Sorry for my early chose of words.

It doesn't need to increase sales as long as it continues to sell well. A Zelda that sells 4,000,000 makes $120 million. Most companies would kill for that much money, and it's probably far more than the average Zelda project's budget.

 

[FStubbs]

What I want to say is that the series is not growing sale wise. Sorry for my early chose of words.

IF anything, given population growth, sales of Zelda are shrinking. And the cultural impact of Zelda is far worse too. The fact that people are even comparing it to Skyrim (and though not in this topic, Dark Souls) shows its decline.

Puzzle Zelda is the road to ruin. Making it a real adventure again and de-emphasizing puzzles is the way to go.


RE: Zelda 2. I'm tired of the internet (and Miyamoto) trying to revise history. Zelda 2 is a real Zelda game (more so than Spirit Tracks, that's for sure) and was extremely popular - they couldn't keep the game on shelves. If anything, Nintendo should explore Zelda 2 a bit more for ideas.

 

[cooljeanius]

Puzzles are what make Zelda games intellectually engaging to me, and the reason I play Zelda games is because of my intellectual engagement with them.

 

[GiantEnemyGoomba]

Dungeon design/puzzles is 95% of what I like about Zelda.

 

[kunonabi]

I prefer the items from a metroidvania view than for the puzzles honestly. Playing Link Between Worlds and Wind Waker HD this last year I couldn't help but notice the puzzles were almost the least interesting or fun aspect. Though I loved the Gerudo Training Ground. Maybe the more recent games just don't have that great of puzzles honestly. The 1 item + wall merge puzzle design of ALBW was pretty disapointing.

Spirit Tracks and Twilight Princess have the best puzzles in the series and Skyward Sword was pretty solid as well. ALBW was an experiment so I don't thinks it's fair to judge the entire series by it. Not until the Wii U Zelda comes out anyway.

 

[Ninjimbo]

They're important. I don't know how much but I would be disappointed if it were absent in a new game. There are plenty of games out there that try to challenge you by having you kill something with a weapon. It's pretty hard to find a game that actually challenges you to navigate an environment through a set of obstacles which I feel Zelda does. Games that used to do puzzles and navigation like Resident Evil and Tomb Raider have all left behind those roots in favor of just having you kill as much as possible. I don't want to see Zelda go that route. What the series does has only become rarer.

Plus, the amount of puzzle solving lends an air of credence to the universe that I feel would get lost if a boy like Link were suddenly tasked with killing a thousand monsters. I like how the 3D games don't have as much combat. It makes those few fight scenes really matter when they finally appear. Every Stalfos fight in OoT felt special because there were so few.

 

[hemo memo]

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

SS

Spoiler

Lanayru

is one of the best dungons in the entire series. In terms of creativity and level design elder scrolls devolpers can learn so much from Zelda.

 

[Slamtastic]

I'd be happy to see them dropped if it meant an improvement in other areas, like open world, story, npcs, sidequests, combat, etc.

Of course, as others have said, I haven't played a Zelda in a long while, and instead play Skyrim.

 

[WillyFive]

If they took out the dungeons in a future Zelda, I wouldn't miss them one bit. They are more a distraction from the main game than anything else for me.

 

[massoluk]

edit: damn GAF Mobile :\

 

[Tuck]

Puzzles are 90% Zelda to me.

This. So much more important than combat *cough*

 

[RedSwirl]

This thread is another reminder of how fragmented and at-war the Zelda fanbase is.

It seems to me a lot of people basically want Zelda to return to the 2D formula of Zelda 1 and ALTTP. Those games are mostly centered around 1) the sense of discovery, and 2) surviving the monsters. Notice I said "surviving," not necessarily fighting. People complain about the combat in Zelda, but to be honest it's never been that complex. In the older games it was always about just not getting killed. Maybe people want that fantasy of getting into an intense sword fight with a skeleton.

Personally I really enjoy figuring out a dungeon. At the same time I wouldn't mind if we actually did get a game that was simply about discovering the mysteries of the world and surviving them. At that point though Dark Souls 1 is probably what people want, or a more challenging version of Skyrim.

 

[Heroman]

If they took out the dungeons in a future Zelda, I wouldn't miss them one bit. They are more a distraction from the main game than anything else for me.

But dungeons are the main game.

 

[FartOfWar]

Thats what I am doing. Skyward sword ended the series for me. If I want to solve puzzles I will play a puzzle game. I am playing The elder scrolls series from now on.

And I'll never eat another pizza now that I discovered hamburgers.

 

[SerTapTap]

But dungeons are the main game.

Depends on the game, Wind Waker is like...90% not-dungeon

 

[axisofweevils]

A Zelda game without puzzles is like a Mario without jumping. At that point, it might as well be another IP.

 

[WillyFive]

But dungeons are the main game.

The worst offender of this was Skyward Sword, where even the overworld itself was a dungeon with puzzles. It seemed so contrived and unappealing; having the adventure and story pause every few areas to do some random puzzle solving.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

About as important as the combat. Neither one should suffer.

 

[PVR]

And I'll never eat another pizza now that I discovered hamburgers.

Congratulations!

 

[Heroman]

Depends on the game, Wind Waker is like...90% not-dungeon

Most of the game you are trying to get something that can only be found in a dungeon. Outside of the 3rd pearl and the triforce hunt you are trying to get to a dungeon.

 

[FartOfWar]

IF anything, given population growth, sales of Zelda are shrinking. And the cultural impact of Zelda is far worse too. The fact that people are even comparing it to Skyrim (and though not in this topic, Dark Souls) shows its decline.

Puzzle Zelda is the road to ruin. Making it a real adventure again and de-emphasizing puzzles is the way to go.


RE: Zelda 2. I'm tired of the internet (and Miyamoto) trying to revise history. Zelda 2 is a real Zelda game (more so than Spirit Tracks, that's for sure) and was extremely popular - they couldn't keep the game on shelves. If anything, Nintendo should explore Zelda 2 a bit more for ideas.

Is Zelda less popular or are the platforms the games are exclusive too increasingly less popular (compare Wii U and 3DS to Super Nintendo, DS, etc.)?

 

[Nimajneb]

I hope the people who are saying they don't want puzzles in Zelda have played Okami. The game nails the over world, side quests and NPC interactions better than any Zelda, but the puzzles and dungeons are barely existent.

Also people who want only the puzzles should play Zack and Wiki. The puzzle design has always reminded me of Zelda.

 

[FartOfWar]

Congratulations!

If you insist on the all-pizza diet, follow in the footsteps of pizza lords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKilm79bNAU

 

[GiantEnemyGoomba]

Depends on the game, Wind Waker is like...90% not-dungeon

And that's why it's the worst 3D Zelda

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Follow-up question: do you think it is better when puzzles are necessary to move forward, or when they are optional for side benefits, like heart pieces? What makes for a good puzzle?

I prefer when we basically get both.
The series is generally good at regulating it's more complex puzzle designs to mandatory gameplay segments while also providing simpler optional side-puzzles to reward curious players.
I don't think it needs to do one or the other because it's been doing both for years.

In terms of what makes a good puzzle.
I can only really give an example:
-Using my newly acquired flying slashing beetle item to clear a ceiling of angry Deku Baba plants by flying around and cutting their stems (while avoiding their gnawing faces and the walls of the temple) so I can safely walk across a tight rope (that hovers above a punishing enemy filled pit) = good puzzle design (imo)

That particular example of a very early Skyward Sword puzzle makes great use of the environment, enemies, and properties of the dungeon's item.
A mainline EAD developed Zelda game that's devoid of designs like that might as well be a whole new IP.

 

[Moon_frogger]

It's crucial. The combat is just window dressing.

 

[WillyFive]

Most of the game you are trying to get something that can only be found in a dungeon. Outside of the 3rd pearl and the triforce hunt you are trying to get to a dungeon.

That is the objective, yes; but you are not in those dungeons, you are trying to get to them.

 

[Dr. Buni]

Not important at all to me. Puzzles actually just get in the way for me. I want to explore and beat bosses, not solve puzzles.

 

[maxcriden]

Karsticles, if you're looking for a good challenge, you should try the Tower of Terror with the bug net! I couldn't do it, it's super tough....

 

[MisterGrey3000]

And that's why it's the worst 3D Zelda

Plus the dungeons that are there (which the player actually does spend a decent amount of time in seeing as they're mandatory for beating the game) aren't exactly the most clever, interesting, or unique dungeon-designs from a gameplay perspective...
I guess the "Tower of The Gods" was fun, but riding that boat around it's environment became a bit tedious (like swimming through the annoying currents in the "Great Bay Temple")

 

[Crayolan]

Zelda is a combination of action, exploration, and puzzles. Without all 3 of those elements it's not a Zelda game.