Ferguson: Police Kill 18yo Black Male; Fire Gas/Rubber Bullets Into Protesting Crowds

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sphagnum said:
Yeah boo those oppressed people striking back at their oppressors.
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Snarky shit is useless in discussions like this. Let's be clear. I do not support violence as an answer to the problems of police brutality, institutionalized racism, or the blue wall. I do not believe violence solves these kinds of problems. I don't believe burning down random police officer's homes is productive in any sense, assuming that report is true. That does not mean I am "defending the police" or not empathizing with what people are going thru. I haven't "booed" anyone. If you think attacking police officers or burning their property or endangering their families is going to break the blue wall you are severely mistaken. This is a serious issue that won't be solved by violence. At least, let's try to be serious minded in our discussion.
 
watershed said:
Snarky shit is useless in discussions like this. Let's be clear. I do not support violence as an answer to the problems of police brutality, institutionalized racism, or the blue wall. I do not believe violence solves these kinds of problems. I don't believe burning down random police officer's homes is productive in any sense, assuming that report is true. That does not mean I am "defending the police" or not empathizing with what people are going thru. I haven't "booed" anyone. If you think attacking police officers or burning their property or endangering their families is going to break the blue wall you are severely mistaken. This is a serious issue that won't be solved by violence. At least, let's try to be serious minded in our discussion.
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I am serious. I support the right of oppressed people to overthrow their oppressors. Police are legitimate targets.

Do I think this will necessarily amount to anything? No - there isn't a revolutionary consciousness in the United States, and even if there was the people are ill equipped to fight back against the police state in any way but guerilla warfare/prolonged people's war. But peaceful protest isn't going to do anything either.

When an oppressed group fights back, they aren't starting violence. They're responding to the violence already being perpetrated against them. Instead of criticizing the people fighting their oppressors, whether in vain or not, I choose to criticize the oppressors themselves. The people always have the right to rebel.
 
https://twitter.com/TheAnonMessage/status/499458771799015424

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Edit :

Follow up :

https://twitter.com/TheAnonMessage/status/499460631515660288

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sphagnum said:
I am serious. I support the right of oppressed people to overthrow their oppressors. Police are legitimate targets.

Do I think this will necessarily amount to anything? No - there isn't a revolutionary consciousness in the United States, and even if there was the people are ill equipped to fight back against the police state in any way but guerilla warfare/prolonged people's war. But peaceful protest isn't going to do anything either.

When an oppressed group fights back, they aren't starting violence. They're responding to the violence already being perpetrated against them. Instead of criticizing the people fighting their oppressors, whether in vain or not, I choose to criticize the oppressors themselves. The people always have the right to rebel.
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There is an ocean of difference between criticizing and advocating violence against. I can understand why people may want to "strike back" at the police. But I don't support or agree with that mentality. I never suggested protesters were "starting violence", these protests, violent and non-violent, are clearly responses to the shooting. But I do not believe police are indiscriminately legitimate targets for random acts of violence. Peaceful protests have worked in the past, in America and outside America. Policies, including policing policies, have changed over time. You could argue some changes were assisted by violent protests, but I would disagree to an extent. At least, I disagree enough to believe that violence will not make this situation better.
 
sphagnum said:
I am serious. I support the right of oppressed people to overthrow their oppressors. Police are legitimate targets.

Do I think this will necessarily amount to anything? No - there isn't a revolutionary consciousness in the United States, and even if there was the people are ill equipped to fight back against the police state in any way but guerilla warfare/prolonged people's war. But peaceful protest isn't going to do anything either.

When an oppressed group fights back, they aren't starting violence. They're responding to the violence already being perpetrated against them. Instead of criticizing the people fighting their oppressors, whether in vain or not, I choose to criticize the oppressors themselves. The people always have the right to rebel.
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Let me ask you something... are you a troll? I mean, you are on a message board where people use free speech to discuss consumer products created by multinational corporations. It seems like you shouldn't be here.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Let me ask you something... are you a troll? I mean, you are on a message board where people use free speech to discuss consumer products created by multinational corporations. It seems like you shouldn't be here.
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Do you think communists don't enjoy video games or something? I can't help it if I live in a capitalist world. I guess I can't read books or watch movies or buy food either.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Let me ask you something... are you a troll? I mean, you are on a message board where people use free speech to discuss consumer products created by multinational corporations. It seems like you shouldn't be here.
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You can have a moral philosophy and also recognize the world you live in and what you personally have the power to change.

You can also make suggestions as to how the world could move towards something you expect to be more in line with your morals.
 
Shit is getting even crazier! I don't condone violence but as history has showed us that is about the only thing that can actually make a change. I hope everybody is alright though.

sphagnum said:
Do you think communists don't enjoy video games or something? I can't help it if I live in a capitalist world. I guess I can't read books or watch movies or buy food either.
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Commies love video games, comrade!
 
benjipwns said:
You can have a moral philosophy and also recognize the world you live in and what you personally have the power to change.

You can also make suggestions as to how the world could move towards something you expect to be more in line with your morals.
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I get that, but he has advocated a revolutionary peoples war to create a state with communal property. In such a state, the things that he claims that he gets to enjoy as a Communist do not exist. Cinema, video games, food, and most popular books spanning various topics... all the product of Capitalism. In Communist countries, the people don't enjoy any of that stuff unless it explicitly serves the ruling party. They don't even get to access the internet. But you know who does? The people's party leaders, who live in palaces while the poorest worker starves to death. So, it's just laughable.

You don't want a heavy-handed police force, right? I've never looked at a Socialist state and said "wow, I wish my police force treated us like they treat their citizens. I'd love to be put in a gulag for practicing Judaism! Oh boy oh boy."
 
vas_a_morir said:
I get that, but he has advocated a revolutionary peoples war to create a state with communal property. In such a state, the things that he claims that he gets to enjoy as a Communist do not exist. Cinema, video games, food, and most popular books spanning various topics... all the product of Capitalism. In Communist countries, the people don't enjoy any of that stuff unless it explicitly serves the ruling party. They don't even get to access the internet. But you know who does? The people's party leaders, who live in palaces while the poorest worker starves to death. So, it's just laughable.

You don't want a heavy-handed police force, right? I've never looked at a Socialist state and said "wow, I wish my police force treated us like they treat their citizens. I'd love to be put in a gulag for practicing Judaism! Oh boy oh boy."
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You're conflating "communism" with "Communism" but that's really for another thread.
 
To get change, violence needs to be at least an implied threat. As in, "if we don't get a better deal, we'll take it or die trying, and it's better to give us what we want instead of dealing with us".

I don't think Americans are willing to die for much of anything these days, which is one reason why reform has been so slow in America.

Note: that doesn't mean that the folks who wish reform are always right. I'm just sayng that without a threat, reform that threatens the system has no teeth. (and police power is always a threat to the system, this isn't gay marriage here)
 
Piston Hyundai said:
Wouldn't something like that be relatively easy to fake? Just dump some random dudes' names in there and call it a day.
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I would think it's public record.

vas_a_morir said:
I get that, but he has advocated a revolutionary peoples war to create a state with communal property. In such a state, the things that he claims that he gets to enjoy as a Communist do not exist. Cinema, video games, food, and most popular books spanning various topics... all the product of Capitalism. In Communist countries, the people don't enjoy any of that stuff unless it explicitly serves the ruling party. They don't even get to access the internet. But you know who does? The people's party leaders, who live in palaces while the poorest worker starves to death. So, it's just laughable.

You don't want a heavy-handed police force, right? I've never looked at a Socialist state and said "wow, I wish my police force treated us like they treat their citizens. I'd love to be put in a gulag for practicing Judaism! Oh boy oh boy."
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I think in this case he's advocating more in favor of revolutionary action in general and less about the specifics down the road where we get to that good stuff.
 
vas_a_morir said:
I get that, but he has advocated a revolutionary peoples war to create a state with communal property. In such a state, the things that he claims that he gets to enjoy as a Communist do not exist. Cinema, video games, food, and most popular books spanning various topics... all the product of Capitalism. In Communist countries, the people don't enjoy any of that stuff unless it explicitly serves the ruling party. They don't even get to access the internet. But you know who does? The people's party leaders, who live in palaces while the poorest worker starves to death. So, it's just laughable.

You don't want a heavy-handed police force, right? I've never looked at a Socialist state and said "wow, I wish my police force treated us like they treat their citizens. I'd love to be put in a gulag for practicing Judaism! Oh boy oh boy."
Click to expand...

This isn't the thread for that but there hasn't been a true communist country. Just corrupt countries claiming communism.
 
vas_a_morir said:
I get that, but he has advocated a revolutionary peoples war to create a state with communal property. In such a state, the things that he claims that he gets to enjoy as a Communist do not exist. Cinema, video games, food, and most popular books spanning various topics... all the product of Capitalism. In Communist countries, the people don't enjoy any of that stuff unless it explicitly serves the ruling party. They don't even get to access the internet. But you know who does? The people's party leaders, who live in palaces while the poorest worker starves to death. So, it's just laughable.

You don't want a heavy-handed police force, right? I've never looked at a Socialist state and said "wow, I wish my police force treated us like they treat their citizens. I'd love to be put in a gulag for practicing Judaism! Oh boy oh boy."
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I'm sorry, did you say food is a product of capitalism?
 
Oh shit everybody talking about communism now. I'll try to get us back on track!


Have we learned if cops houses have actually been burnt down? Has there been any news reports about that yet?
 
NEOPARADIGM said:
I'm sorry, did you say food is a product of capitalism?
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Practically all of the food, books, games, and movies I freely enjoy are indeed the product of Capitalism., yes.

For example, I enjoy Coke Zero. Capitalism.
I like to eat Skyline Chili. Capitalism.
I like to order a Papa Johns pizza from time to time. Capitalism.
I like to use Sriracha Rooster sauce. Capitalism.
I like to eat Avacados grown in commercial farms domestically and abroad. Capitalism.
I like to read Game of Thrones. Capitalism.
I like to watch Goodfellas. Capitalism.
I like to play Gundam EXVS. Capitalism.

I do not say that it is a perfect system and there are people who suffer because of it. But, I like these things and that's how I got em.

I'm just saying, being pro-communal property and enjoying video games and movies is like being against slaughter of livestock and taking a big juicy bite of a Ribeye Steak. Seems so laughably hypocritical that I figured he was a joke character.

And I've read the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1944, Communist Manifesto, Bernstein, Lenin, and so forth when I was in college. In fact, I'd say the EPM1844 is one of the more eye-opening books I've read concerning what the Industrial Revolution does to a man emotionally. I know all about the differences between Primal Communism, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and Marx's vision of the inevitable futuristic True Communism. HOWEVER, the Revolutionary stuff appalls me because it leads to the same thing: Thugs with guns living in mansions while everyone else lives as his serfs out of fear of violent retaliation.

Anyway, I guess this isn't the place for it. Sorry guys!
 
CrimsonCommie said:
Most people especially Americans have no idea what communism is since we're taught it's evil from a very early age. But this definitely doesn't need to drag out into a capitalist vs communist debate.
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Hm, I didn't really learn that it was evil, just that it is misguided and doesn't work.

And that evil people have used it to further their own ends on multiple occasions and committed some of the world's worst atrocities in its name.
 
vas_a_morir said:
Practically all of the food, books, games, and movies I freely enjoy are indeed the product of Capitalism., yes.

For example, I enjoy Coke Zero. Capitalism.
I like to eat Skyline Chili. Capitalism.
I like to order a Papa Johns pizza from time to time. Capitalism.
I like to use Sriracha Rooster sauce. Capitalism.
I like to eat Avacados grown in commercial farms domestically and abroad. Capitalism.
I like to read Game of Thrones. Capitalism.
I like to watch Goodfellas. Capitalism.
I like to play Gundam EXVS. Capitalism.

I do not say that it is a perfect system and there are people who suffer because of it. But, I like these things and that's how I got em.

I'm just saying, being pro-communal property and enjoying video games and movies is like being against slaughter of livestock and taking a big juicy bite of a Ribeye Steak. Seems so laughably hypocritical that I figured he was a joke character.

And I've read the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1944, Communist Manifesto, Bernstein, Lenin, and so forth when I was in college. In fact, I'd say the EPM1844 is one of the more eye-opening books I've read concerning what the Industrial Revolution does to a man emotionally. I know all about the differences between Primal Communism, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and Marx's vision of the inevitable futuristic True Communism. HOWEVER, the Revolutionary stuff appalls me because it leads to the same thing: Thugs with guns living in mansions while everyone else lives as his serfs out of fear of violent retaliation.

Anyway, I guess this isn't the place for it. Sorry guys!
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I'm just going to address the bolded since that actually relates to this thread. The same exact thing can be said about capitalism we're seeing the effects of this right now in Missouri. The rich ruling class are sitting in their mansions while their guns, the police, are attacking innocent people most of them are too afraid and don't have the means to retaliate.


timetokill said:
Hm, I didn't really learn that it was evil, just that it is misguided and doesn't work.

And that evil people have used it to further their own ends on multiple occasions and committed some of the world's worst atrocities in its name.
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The same exact thing can be said about capitalism but most people ignore that.

benjipwns said:
Need a Communism |OT| or something.
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Yes apparently
 
benjipwns said:
Need a Communism |OT| or something.
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You know, it might be good. Plus, it would give our friends on here who favor Socialism* (Absolutely no private ownership of property) a chance to make a good argument for why such a system would be viable and preferable. We can all learn.

Anyway, we gotta chill out on this topic or Comrade Bish will be putting all of us in the gulag. lol

CrimsonCommie said:
I'm just going to address the bolded since that actually relates to this thread. The same exact thing can be said about capitalism we're seeing the effects of this right now in Missouri. The rich ruling class are sitting in their mansions while their guns, the police, are attacking innocent people most of them are too afraid and don't have the means to retaliate.
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This is an interesting perspective and although I'd like to talk about it further, we'd best take it to PM if you'd like or leave it for the Communism OT.
 
El Odio said:
I have a feeling this will only lead to bad things. This is just going to throw a insane amount of fuel into the fire.
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Still preferable to another black kid getting loaded full of bullets with the police having nothing to show or do about it though.
 
enzo_gt said:
Still preferable to another black kid getting loaded full of bullets with the police having nothing to show or do about it though.
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While I guess it is better than another innocent life being taken, releasing the tape to the public and likely proving that the eyewitness accounts of Micheal being killed without any sort of justification were true the fact that this recording exists and was withheld by officials likely because they wanted to sweep it under the rug could and will likely agitate many of the already violent protesters. What that will lead to is anyone's guess but it's probably only going to get more violent.
 
I'll be honest, I thought that Adder guy who posted the other day saying he was crying thinking about this stuff was just being melodramatic, and I posted dismissively.

But after reading this thread - the whole thread - I think despair is a natural and completely understandable reaction :-/
 
Missouri police 'shoot second man' in city where teenager was killed

Man is said to be in critical condition in hospital after fresh demonstrations over police shooting of Michael Brown, 18

A second man has been shot by police in the Missouri city where an unarmed black 18-year-old was shot dead last weekend, according to multiple reports.

Police officials told local reporters that the man was shot in Ferguson by a St Louis County officer after pointing a handgun at him soon after 1am on Wednesday, following fresh demonstrations over the death on Saturday of Michael Brown.

The officer was responding to reports of shots being fired and men wearing ski masks carrying shotguns. The man was in critical condition in hospital, a police spokesman told the St Louis Post-Dispatch, Fox 2 and KMOV, and his gun was recovered at the scene.

A woman was separately being treated in hospital after being shot in the head during a drive-by shooting in the city. The incidents followed the peaceful end earlier to a tense standoff between protesters and police, prompting hopes of avoiding a third night of violence.

A raucous convoy of about 250 young demonstrators, marching along a main route into downtown Ferguson, was halted about 30 yards from a wall of police assembled at the entrance to the street where Brown was killed by a still-unidentified officer on Saturday.

Officers in military-style uniforms, some carrying high-powered rifles and wearing balaclavas, formed a line at least two men deep and blocking the entire width of Florrisant Street, the main drag where angry protests over Brown's killing had flared for the previous two nights.

Pitched behind two large armoured trucks, they repeatedly warned the demonstrators through a Tannoy system to "get out of the road or face arrest" – the same warning delivered on Monday night before officers fired teargas, rubber bullets and wooden baton rounds into the crowds.

But for 40 minutes, the protesters defied the threat. Some hung out of car windows, while others raised their arms aloft and repeated what has become their defining slogan: "Hands up, don't shoot." A police helicopter swooped around the dark sky above, shining a bright spotlight on the faces of the almost entirely African American crowd.

"Heavenly father, help us as we continue on this journey of justice," Rasheen Aldridge, a 20-year-old self-appointed leader of the group, told them through a megaphone. "The people behind us, they will do what they will do. Only you can judge us; only you can protect us."

As the police declined to follow through with arrests, furious members of the crowd screamed obscenities at officers and urged them to "shoot those rubber bullets". But after 40 minutes in which it seemed that a repeat of Monday night's clashes would happen at any moment, the protesters abruptly melted away.

Patricia Bynes, a Democratic committeewoman for Ferguson, who was observing the standoff nervously, said she hoped its resolution signalled an end to the violent clashes. "But there is definitely still an antagonism there," said Bynes.

In the early hours of Wednesday it was reported that a small skirmish had resulted in police again using teargas and a young woman being struck in the head with a projectile. Spookwrites, an Instagram user who had previously been covering the protests, posted a photograph of herself wearing a neck brace and showing cuts on her face.

"We have a right to assemble, a right to freedom," said Paul Muhammad. "But here we are facing what looks like a military imposing martial law. It is not acceptable."

The protesters had marched from a church more than a mile away, where earlier in the evening the Rev Al Sharpton, the veteran civil rights leader and TV host, appeared alongside Brown's parents to appeal for calm after two nights in which about 50 people were arrested.

Ferguson police refused on Tuesday to release the name of the officer who shot Brown in sharply disputed circumstances. While police say that Brown assaulted the officer during a struggle, witnesses said he was shot while trying to run away after being grabbed by the officer when he and a friend would not leave the road and walk on the pavement.

For the previous three hours, the officers held their line while being approached by several people who gestured at them or aired complaints. One man, who refused to stop walking, promptly found his chest emblazoned with the red dot of a laser sight from an officer's gun.

Lawanda Wallace, 40, got closer than anyone else to the stone-faced officers and accused them of racism. "It's just the same as 40 years ago," said Wallace. "When white people do it, it's an honest uprising; when black folks do it, it's rioting and looting."

A series of cars, some of whose drivers seemed to be taunting the officers, also approached the police line. One man drove towards them at such speed, and stopped so short of hitting officers, that several people watching gasped and screamed in anticipation of a crash or a shooting to prevent one.

As the man turned his car around and drove away, he poked his head out of his driver-side window and smiled. "I don't know what's up with them," he said of the police.

The Ferguson city police officer who shot Brown has not been named publicly, but has been placed on paid leave while the shooting is investigated by the separate St Louis county police department. The FBI is also looking into whether the incident caused civil rights violations.

In a statement on Tuesday, Barack Obama described Brown's death as "heartbreaking". Noting the FBI investigation, the president appealed for calm. "I know the events of the past few days have prompted strong passions, but as details unfold, I urge everyone in Ferguson, Missouri, and across the country to remember this young man through reflection and understanding. We should comfort each other and talk with one another in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds."

The official response to Brown's death has been rejected as insultingly inadequate by many African American residents of Ferguson, a city of about 21,000 people where 67% of the population is black, yet 94% of the police force – and prominent figures in local government, such as the mayor – are white.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ice-shoot-man-city-teenager-killed?CMP=twt_fd
 
Tedesco! said:
I said it earlier in the thread, and it's semantics, but I believe the police meant for the people to be in their homes, not just standing in their yards.
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The problem is that the police are firing tear gas that is blowing into their homes from outside.

Tedesco! said:
I don't give a shit. I don't have a dog in this fight I'm not siding with the police on this point. I was just trying to make a guess at the action of the police and why they did what they did. No need to jump down my throat.
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Bullshit.


NEOPARADIGM said:
I'm back on page 19, but I just wanted to say:



I don't believe this for a fucking second.
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Wait til you get to the witness account.

kame-sennin said:
Off-topic/on-topic:

24 year-old man shot and killed by LAPD



http://www.vibe.com/article/man-fatally-shot-lapd-during-confrontation
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Did I not just say that this was going to happen again soon? It wasn't in this thread, but I'm certain I did.
 
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