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Ferguson: Police Kill 18yo Black Male; Fire Gas/Rubber Bullets Into Protesting Crowds

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Are you really gonna argue that's not him?? Some of you are being absurd in defense of things that aren't really related and have little defense. He robbed a store. Confirmed by the attorney of the friend. Same clothes, same build and video evidence if you somehow don't believe the friend.

Again, the need to defend every aspect of his life is absurd. It makes people doing so look just as bad as those trying to justify what happened. He robbed a store and by law, assaulted the clerk.

I'm not arguing that its not him. The lawyer has stated that there was an altercation, and the police has stated that its him. That is their side of whats happening here, and thats fine. Its all due process.

But again, all of this coming out today doesn't take away the fact that a cop flat out killed, and some will say murdered and even executed a man who attempted to surrender, proven by eyewitness accounts and by two people that were complete strangers to each other.

I know tensions are high in this thread, and thats fine. Its going to be that way, and the more information comes out, the more light will be shed.

But Michael Brown had no criminal record. There may be more to the story behind this new footage that was released today. We just don't know, but we do know that there was police brutality enforced here.
 
I don't think this is very complicated. When you say something in the context of an ongoing conversation, people are going to interpret you as saying something relevant to that conversation. I mean, why else would you be saying something?

You jumped in to object to talking about Brown as a "child". You said "The guy was 18 and 6 foot 4, and capable of robbery, he was hardly a child". Now, presumably you were paying attention and didn't think people were unaware that Brown was about that age, though maybe they didn't know that he was a bit taller than average? "Capable of robbery" is pretty useless, as descriptions go. It's hard to see what this post is trying to accomplish, if we're being charitable. I guess your position now is that you were just being pedantic for no good reason and were looking to have an argument over the definition of 'child' (specifically, whether it's appropriate to talk about people at an age where many have never had real jobs, are still in high school, live with their parents, and are listed as dependents on their parents' tax returns as 'children'). That's kind of a silly point to drop this sort of one-liner about, and if you really felt the need to make this point anyway you should have stopped to think about how it would look - a couple more sentences making clear that you're only wanting to be pedantic and aren't trying to justify his killing would have helped.

But then in a later post you go on and talk about how he wasn't an "upstanding citizen". And by now I don't think anyone's buying that you were just being pedantic earlier. That someone isn't an "upstanding citizen" means they're not a "child"? Clearly we've moved on to dancing around how, while maybe this is tragic and all, it's not nearly as tragic as it'd be if Brown weren't 6' 4".
Or it could simply be a comment on the plausibility of him attacking the police officer. A "child" minding his own business walking down the street attacking an officer seems unlikely vs an adult who just got done robbing a convenience store. It's silly to claim the false dichotomy that the poster was either being unnecessarily pedantic or justifying murder.
 
This justifies getting shot around 10 times in the back by police?

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Pretend I'm slow. Carefully and thoughtfully lead me to what are your conclusions, arguments, and justifications on how Michael Brown's alleged robbery is related to his shooting.

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Well it's related because it's the alleged (sp?) reason Wilson stopped and talked with Brown. It in NO way justifies the shooting/murder that happened, but it is very much related because it's what led up to the two meeting.

Bolding that section just to make sure I don't get accussed of anything when I'm just trying to show how they are linked.
 
Actually that would be battery. Assault is the threat of force, battery is using it.

Still doesn't matter though.

This is an archaic distinction. In Missouri, for instance, the crime of assault in the third degree is committed where "[a] person purposely places another person in apprehension of immediate physical injury; or . . . [a] person knowingly causes physical contact with another person knowing the other person will regard the contact as offensive or provocative."

The robbery really doesn't justify the killing of Brown, though, regardless of what crimes he may have committed.
 
Well it's related because it's the alleged (sp?) reason Wilson stopped and talked with Brown. It in NO way justifies the shooting/murder that happened, but it is very much related because it's what led up to the two meeting.

Bolding that section just to make sure I don't get accussed of anything when I'm just trying to show how they are linked.

That wasn't the reason Darren Wilson has stopped them according to eyewitnesses reports. Or have people recanted the jaywalking story?
 
That wasn't the reason Darren Wilson has stopped them according to eyewitnesses reports. Or have people recanted the jaywalking story?

The cops claim it was the reason Wilson is in the area per the reports they released. Again why I said alleged, there are conflicting reports all over the place.
 
That wasn't the reason Darren Wilson has stopped them according to eyewitnesses reports. Or have people recanted the jaywalking story?

The friend is the only one who has given the jaywalking story. Everyone else came in after the altercation started.
 
Well it's related because it's the alleged (sp?) reason Wilson stopped and talked with Brown. It in NO way justifies the shooting/murder that happened, but it is very much related because it's what led up to the two meeting.

Bolding that section just to make sure I don't get accussed of anything when I'm just trying to show how they are linked.

I agree on both counts, but it would additionally be relevant to how much of a danger the officer perceived Brown to be. That's going to be a large component of the case (which I think should weigh in Brown's favor) if the evidence isn't clear that Brown surrendered.
 
I don't think this is very complicated. When you say something in the context of an ongoing conversation, people are going to interpret you as saying something relevant to that conversation. I mean, why else would you be saying something?

You jumped in to object to talking about Brown as a "child". You said "The guy was 18 and 6 foot 4, and capable of robbery, he was hardly a child". Now, presumably you were paying attention and didn't think people were unaware that Brown was about that age, though maybe they didn't know that he was a bit taller than average? "Capable of robbery" is pretty useless, as descriptions go. It's hard to see what this post is trying to accomplish, if we're being charitable. I guess your position now is that you were just being pedantic for no good reason and were looking to have an argument over the definition of 'child' (specifically, whether it's appropriate to talk about people at an age where many have never had real jobs, are still in high school, live with their parents, and are listed as dependents on their parents' tax returns as 'children'). That's kind of a silly point to drop this sort of one-liner about, and if you really felt the need to make this point anyway you should have stopped to think about how it would look - a couple more sentences making clear that you're only wanting to be pedantic and aren't trying to justify his killing would have helped.

But then in a later post you go on and talk about how he wasn't an "upstanding citizen". And by now I don't think anyone's buying that you were just being pedantic earlier. That someone isn't an "upstanding citizen" means they're not a "child"? Clearly we've moved on to dancing around how, while maybe this is tragic and all, it's not nearly as tragic as it'd be if Brown weren't 6' 4".

I can say two things without thinking his killing was justified, I didn't think I'd need a disclaimer for it
 
The timecode moves its entire position from video vs those stills you just posted... The wall of the door is in between the 0 and 9. But on the video, the wall is on the side of the 0 and 9. Even if I contrast the hell out of it, the line still says on the other side of the 9. Its a fixed camera innit?

Weird discrepancy.

video: http://www.onenewspage.us/video/201...Michael-Brown-Was-Robbery-Suspect-Release.htm

Please stop this. If there are legitimate reasons to doubt the validity of that video, you can be sure someone with knowledge of such things will point them out somewhere. The world needs less forum detectives.

Also, the friend with him in that video admitted it was them.
 
That wasn't the reason Darren Wilson has stopped them according to eyewitnesses reports. Or have people recanted the jaywalking story?

The cops claim it was the reason Wilson is in the area per the reports they released. Again why I said alleged, there are conflicting reports all over the place.

This aspect of the case will just be a he-said/they-said, and highlights the problem with there supposedly being not dash-cam video/audio equipped on the officer's police vehicle. The cops can just lie this one away.
 
Or it could simply be a comment on the plausibility of him attacking the police officer. A "child" minding his own business walking down the street attacking an officer seems unlikely vs an adult who just gone done robbing a convenience store. It's silly to claim the false dichotomy that the poster was either being unnecessarily pedantic or justifying murder.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Brown was incapable of attacking a police officer. I don't get the sense that Brown being physically weak is any part of anybody's narrative about this. Do you think that maybe you've misunderstood the reasons why people are using the word 'child'?

But, sure, few are wanting to "justify murder", consciously. That's probably too strong. What lots of people are doing - and this happens every time there's an incident like this - is sort of downplaying how tragic this is and to what extent there's a problem with the police. It's bad, and people involved did wrong and made mistakes, but ultimately this is an understandable consequence of how the world works and there's really nothing (worthwhile) we can do about it. We'll all agree to try harder next time, and maybe black people might want to consider being more careful to not present as threatening.
 
So this is why the police waited so long to to come up with some way to character assassinate a dead person. Sure he may or may not have robbed the place of some cigars but, what does that have to do with the apparent execution style shooting of Michael Brown. When did the cops turn into the street judges from Judge Dredd? So someone with no prior record may have committed petty theft and simple assault so that gives the police officer the right to execute the unarmed person in the street? Also anyone who tries to justify this bs is just sad.
 
Pretend I'm slow. Carefully and thoughtfully lead me to what are your conclusions, arguments, and justifications on how Michael Brown's alleged robbery is related to his shooting.

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Are you serious? Giving ME the benefit of the doubt? Pretend you're not slow. Scroll through the last few pages and read what I've posted. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here in your creation of your fallacy ridden post.
 
The timecode moves its entire position from video vs those stills you just posted... The wall of the door is in between the 0 and 9. But on the video, the wall is on the side of the 0 and 9. Even if I contrast the hell out of it, the line still says on the other side of the 9. Its a fixed camera innit?

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Weird discrepancy.

video: http://www.onenewspage.us/video/201...Michael-Brown-Was-Robbery-Suspect-Release.htm
Possibly a front door closing, or a fridge door near the camera, or even something else caused it to vibrate?

At this point, with the friend's lawyer corroborating the robbery, dissecting the video is pointless.
 
The truth of what happened leading up to this should be known(consider the timing suspect). But don't latch onto their bait. If two crimes were committed that day only one caused a life to be lost. Let's not highlight a push over a death..
 
I have family that are in law enforcement, and they have been saying for years that police officers are too quick to use lethal force. It's true that it's hard to predict how a person will react when faced with danger. Even trained professionals (like those in law enforcement or military) can react badly in a life or death situation (because even simulation training can't prepare someone for a real life moment). The problem is, a lot f these incidents you hear about don't sound like life and death situations. Even if someone gets a couple punches in on you, how does warrant using lethal force against them?

The only argument I can see, is if they claim the person is punching them over and over, that they feared that they would die by being pummeled to death. Or they feared the person would grab their gun if they were knocked out, or when they are in the struggle. I guess the other side to this is, a person that commits a crime shouldn't be resisting arrest period. But ultimately, a police officer is trained to deal with these sort of things, and apart of the job is taking a risk (the same way that being in the military requires risk). That's why they get paid the money that they do.

Anyways, there really is no justification for when police shoot someone that has given up and is unarmed. I think regardless of how this event played out (what led up to it), we need an overhaul of the system (with police using lethal force so freely). Either that, or require police to start using more non-lethal methods (that it must always be attempted first, unless the person has a gun drawn on them, or trying stab them with a knife).
 
Pretend I'm slow. Carefully and thoughtfully lead me to what are your conclusions, arguments, and justifications on how Michael Brown's alleged robbery is related to his shooting.

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

The robbery is related to the shooting because it provides motive for Brown's alleged attack on the cop - he didn't want to be arrested for robbery. Without this motive, the cop's story falls apart even before you get to the eye witnesses or the hopefully forthcoming hard evidence.
 
I can say two things without thinking his killing was justified, I didn't think I'd need a disclaimer for it

Sure. There are all kinds of things you could say without thinking that the killing was justified. But you again seem to not be understanding how communication works.

Like, if I had quoted you originally and said nothing more than "Some people are just happy that Brown got murdered", you'd probably figure that I was talking about you, right? I mean, I quoted you. It looked like I was responding to you. That's how a reasonable person would have read my post. But maybe I was just saying that! It's true, isn't it? Surely you don't disagree that there are people who would be happy if a black man got murdered, right?
 
Please stop this. If there are legitimate reasons to doubt the validity of that video, you can be sure someone with knowledge of such things will point them out somewhere. The world needs less forum detectives.

Also, the friend with him in that video admitted it was them.

Possibly a front door closing, or a fridge door near the camera, or even something else caused it to vibrate?

The timecode is shifted from the photographs, and the video from a fixed camera -- and it seems to play at a low fps. The stills are from the video, so if there was a change in position in the video, thered be a change in position on the pictures. The wall/redline seems to be a coffee machine or something..?

BB: I'm not saying that the video is fake -- but factually, the timecode translates from the video (at the link provided) and the pictures of the stills. You can see it. The video doesn't need to be fake/real to justify an execution. I use my eyes, professionally doing vfx, it jumped out as weird when I saw it. Its a dramatic difference.

This is all just smearing a black man, to create the narrative seen in this thread first hand, from family stories, posts, etc. He deserved to be executed if he commuted a crime. As others have said, this is it for this case. Happens all the time. The timecode though, moves.
 
This aspect of the case will just be a he-said/they-said, and highlights the problem with there supposedly being not dash-cam video/audio equipped on the officer's police vehicle. The cops can just lie this one away.

Dispatch records? Wouldn't he have said he was responding or that he has spotted a possible suspect that fit the identity?

I'd say the time the dispatch call came over the radio describing the suspect can either confirm or destroy the idea he would have been stopping him because of the robbery.
 
Dispatch records? Wouldn't he have said he was responding or that he has spotted a possible suspect that fit the identity?

I'd say the time the dispatch call came over the radio describing the suspect can either confirm or destroy the idea he would have been stopping him because of the robbery.

I don't think so, not with any certainty, and not unless the cop radioed in to dispatch that he had eyes on the suspect. There is still the chance he just happened upon two black men walking in the middle of the street and that it pissed him off.
 

Sounds like that division needs to be taken over by the Justice Department (or sued). Actually, I have no idea how that sort of thing works. Can it be done? Has anything like that ever happened in the history of the US?

I guess in my head, I always thought the Justice Department could sue or take over a local police division if it was corrupt. But I'm not even sure how that works.

(I apologize if I'm 100% wrong, I'm totally ignorant on this subject).
 
The robbery is related to the shooting because it provides motive for Brown's alleged attack on the cop - he didn't want to be arrested for robbery. Without this motive, the cop's story falls apart even before you get to the eye witnesses or the hopefully forthcoming hard evidence.
Exactly. It does not mean the cop is not guilty. It is germane to the investigation however.
 
and why is everyone forgetting how the police have acted this entire time? The whole.. aiming sniper rifles at protesters/showing up with tanks to a vigil preemptively..thing.. the whole taunting.. the whole inept police chief.... the whole, dude drove away after he killed someone..? All of this is immediately eroded because you no longer have to factor those things in. There is no puzzle to solve. You saw a video that might be him shoving a clerk out of the way. -- So that means everything that has happened is within reason. He had a death wish, and wanted to kill a cop by getting caught walking down the street, and not for a robbery, then, hes going to jungle punch him and take the gun, shooting both cops dead? After stealing some cigars........? He doesn't even have a gun to do this mission?

For fucks sake people. This is just smearing a dead dude, without even being able to talk about the police officer. Because he RAN AWAY from the fucking scene and has stayed silent on the matter.

I know this is a few pages back and maybe this is not something I should do (I'm trying to play catch-up and this thread exploded after the last time I was here), but I really want people to read what you said, because it's so important.
 
Are you serious? Giving ME the benefit of the doubt? Pretend you're not slow. Scroll through the last few pages and read what I've posted. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here in your creation of your fallacy ridden post.


These are your posts. All you have talked about in this thread is about the video of the allege robbery, and trying to find fault with people who say that it is irrelevant. So I ask you again, please tell me (according to you) why its justified to keep on zoning on what Michael Brown allegedly did vs. Darren Wilson taking a life.

Are you really gonna argue that's not him?? Some of you are being absurd in defense of things that aren't really related and have little defense. He robbed a store. Confirmed by the attorney of the friend. Same clothes, same build and video evidence if you somehow don't believe the friend.

Again, the need to defend every aspect of his life is absurd. It makes people doing so look just as bad as those trying to justify what happened. He robbed a store and by law, assaulted the clerk.

The leaked police report from the cop that responded to the call already confirms it is video from that day. The date on the video could be off for simple reasons. Electronic devices and dates have a way of doing that, but I'm sure it will spread as a conspiracy now.

You do know what strongarm is, right? Attack the things that don't add up, but let's stop defending every aspect of his life. It's not ok to rob a store and YES, shoving someone is assault. Full stop, nothing to do with anything else that happened.

WAT!?

Is this what we've come to just to say a victim has no blame in anything in their life?

I've just been lurking, but is anyone following the logic from Zoe? I keep seeing, "why would he try to detain him through the window?" and "why would he confront them about jaywalking if it was about a robbery?"

We have no idea if he did so or not. We only have the one friend who says it was about jaywalking. However, said friend has also failed to mention they were likely just involved in a robbery.

NONE of that excuses being shot multiple times. Just pointing out how some people are seeing what they want possibly.
 
What lots of people are doing - and this happens every time there's an incident like this - is sort of downplaying how tragic this is and to what extent there's a problem with the police. It's bad, and people involved did wrong and made mistakes, but ultimately this is an understandable consequence of how the world works and there's really nothing (worthwhile) we can do about it. We'll all agree to try harder next time, and maybe black people might want to consider being more careful to not present as threatening.

Are you speaking of "lots of people" in a general sense or specifically in this thread? I haven't seen anyone suggest that here.
 
Here's some good news I think:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html

St. Louis County Executive Charlie Dooley will lead an effort to appoint a special prosecutor to handle the case involving an officer who shot unarmed teenager Michael Brown.

Dooley spoke with Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster today and asked the process to remove St. Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCulloch from the case. Tension has mounted over the county's handling of the situation. McCulloch fought back on Thursday, criticizing a state effort that replaced county police handling protests in Ferguson.

"The county executive believes Bob McCulloch is biased and shouldn't handle this case," said Pat Washington, Dooley's spokeswoman.

The process isn't easy. Dooley doesn't have the power to remove McCulloch. Washington said he must obtain signatures and petition a judge for the removal.

Dooley and McCulloch have been at odds. McCulloch pulled his support for Dooley's re-election effort last year and campaigned heavily for his opponent, Steve Stenger. For most of this summer, Stenger ran television ads prominently featuring McCulloch criticizing Dooley's leadership and alleging corruption in the county.

I don't think anyone is going to be satisfied with what the local prosecutors do on this case. Hopefully McCulloch will view this as an out for his office to let this be someone else's problem.
 
in a racist persons mind he deserved to die just for being black in a prejudice persons mind they figure well he must have committed a crime and put the cop at risk so that's why he got killed. Being black in America you are usually guilty before proven innocent and all is fair game if you fit the profile.
 
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