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[NimbusD]

For some reason, that sign that says, "I am a woman" is seriously cracking me up right now.

Civil rights protests reference

EDIT: Beaten.

 

[minx]

So, someone did film the shooting of Kajieme Powell (not graphic but is still a video of a man dieing, so be warned about that). That's the guy with the knife yelling "shoot me" killed yesterday.

It doesn't really line up with the police chief saying he "pulled out a knife and held it in an "overhand" position, above his shoulder", when the video shows his arms were completely at his side the entire time. They also said they opened fire when he was within 4 feet, when it was clearly more like 4 yards.

A lot of the media also used the word "charged" which also clearly isn't true, as it was a very slow walk, but I don't think that wording originated from the police.

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

Edit: also it doesn't matter how many shots are taken. People are not seeming to grasp this. You shoot to kill. You keep shooting until the threat is gone. Also handcuffing afterwards is also protocol.

 

[Lime]

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

Seems to work fine in Europe and the rest of the world, but somehow US police are incompetent fucks who can't neutralize a threat without emptying their clips into the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.

 

[fritolay]

So, someone did film the shooting of Kajieme Powell (not graphic but is still a video of a man dieing, so be warned about that). That's the guy with the knife yelling "shoot me" killed yesterday.

It doesn't really line up with the police chief saying he "pulled out a knife and held it in an "overhand" position, above his shoulder", when the video shows his arms were completely at his side the entire time. They also said they opened fire when he was within 4 feet, when it was clearly more like 4 yards.

A lot of the media also used the word "charged" which also clearly isn't true, as it was a very slow walk, but I don't think that wording originated from the police.

Damn that video is terrible of the Powell shooting. Is that what cops do now? What if we have a mentally challenged kid with scissors are they going to shoot the kid that is messed up.

 

[More_Badass]

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

I don't think people are disputing that. The shocking parts are 1) the discrepancy between what happened and how the chief described it 2) how the media reported it, and 3) the cuffing of the guy as he lay there dying/dead

 

[Althane]

Seems to work fine in Europe and the rest of the world, but somehow US police are incompetent fucks who can't neutralize a threat without emptying their clips into the citizens they are supposed to protect and serve.

Do you know the training that European cops get vs. US cops? (More training = better responses to situations)

Normal threats that they face in Europe vs. US? (I believe guns are fairly rare in Europe compared to the US, and I don't know if gang warfare / drug war is comparable in attitude/tensions)

Just curious. US is a different place, we have a different history, and some pretty big fuckups causing different tensions than I would say is present in other countries.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Am I crazy for thinking that some officers (or hateful organizations like the KKK) got some people to start crap every night? Seems like the people in Ferguson are pretty peaceful. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some undercover people do some shady stuff.

Didn't the NYPD get caught doing this with protesters?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

You shoot to kill. You keep shooting until the threat is gone.

Which is it? Because those are two different things. Was he still a threat during those last 3 shots while he was on the ground writhing?

Neutralizing a threat does not always equate to emptying all of your rounds into a suspect. See: Other 1st-world countries. There's absolutely no reason the cop in that video couldn't have fired one round into the suspect, center-mass, and then hesitated a second or two for more to see if he fell/dropped the knife or continued towards them.

 

[thepotatoman]

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

Edit: also it doesn't matter how many shots are taken. People are not seeming to grasp this. You shoot to kill. You keep shooting until the threat is gone. Also handcuffing afterwards is also protocol.

"Shoot to kill" is not a police tactic. Shoot to center mass is a tactic as it's the largest target.

 

[NimbusD]

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

Edit: also it doesn't matter how many shots are taken. People are not seeming to grasp this. You shoot to kill. You keep shooting until the threat is gone. Also handcuffing afterwards is also protocol.

Still seems like overkill to me now that i've seen the video. I counted 10 shots (dont really feel like rewatching to get the exact count) with at least 2 of them being after he already fell. And I know that people have given rebuttals to the whole shoot to injure thing vs shoot to kill, and maybe I'm (I probably am) ignorant in this but the dude was walking it seemed to me like 10 shots at his legs and youd probably incapacitate him pretty quickly with less of a chance of killing him.

Now Im not up in arms over this cuz of everything youve said, guy was armed and walking (albiet slowly) towards the officers and was clearly belligerent. But I think the overall problem with police officers in this country is that since killing in this scenario is acceptable, and obviously the easier thing to do, they will do it almost every time without question. There's got to be a better way.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

wow. I don't get the need to cuff someone after they're dead.

Make sure nobody knows he's dead.

 

[block tower]

im pretty sure Fox News is going to start splicing footage of X-Men DoFP to illustrate what happened between Mike Brown and officer Wilson.


btw i was at work earlier, what happened on Fox with that one woman anchor?

 

[belvedere]

NPR had an analyst on yesterday who said that law enforcement in the US are more fearful of being shot than what you might find in Europe. I wonder if that's because of our gun toting dipshit gun culture, or because they can and have been outgunned in the past.

 

[GulAtiCa]

So, someone did film the shooting of Kajieme Powell (not graphic but is still a video of a man dieing, so be warned about that). That's the guy with the knife yelling "shoot me" killed yesterday.

It doesn't really line up with the police chief saying he "pulled out a knife and held it in an "overhand" position, above his shoulder", when the video shows his arms were completely at his side the entire time. They also said they opened fire when he was within 4 feet, when it was clearly more like 4 yards.

A lot of the media also used the word "charged" which also clearly isn't true, as it was a very slow walk, but I don't think that wording originated from the police.

Holy shit... He barely walked to them and they fired so many shots. 9 shots... At least 4 or 5 when falling over and last 2 while still.

Wonder why he was telling them to "shoot me" over and over. Suicidal? Mentally ill? No matter what, didn't deserve to die like that.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

The responses to this video show me how little the public know about police tactics and training, whether you agree with them or not. What did you want the cops to do here? This is a justified shooting all day. You don't come at an officer with a knife. They have him multiple warnings. A human can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. An officer would not be able to react fast enough with how close he was. Just Google to 21 foot rule. Yes it is sad he died, but this appears to be suicide by cop.

Edit: also it doesn't matter how many shots are taken. People are not seeming to grasp this. You shoot to kill. You keep shooting until the threat is gone. Also handcuffing afterwards is also protocol.

European police apparently have access to console mode I guess. And here's one of the first Google results about the '21 foot rule' since you asked, which actually talks about 21 feet not being far enough in some situations (from a website called police-one):

"However widespread that contaminated interpretation may be, it is NOT accurate. A suspect with a knife within 21 feet of an officer is POTENTIALLY a deadly threat. He does warrant getting your gun out and ready. But he cannot be considered an actual threat justifying deadly force until he takes the first overt action in furtherance of intention--like starting to rush or lunge toward the officer with intent to do harm. Even then there may be factors besides distance that influence a force decision.

"So long as a subject is stationary or moving around but not advancing or giving any indication he's about to charge, it clearly is not legally justified to use lethal force against him. Officers who do shoot in those circumstances may find themselves subject to disciplinary action, civil suits or even criminal charges."

No single 'rule' can arbitrarily be used to determine when a particular level of force is lawful. The 21-Foot Rule has value as a rough guideline, illustrating the reactionary curve, but it is by no means an absolute.

 

[Volimar]

NPR had an analyst on yesterday who said that law enforcement in the US are more fearful of being shot than what you might find in Europe. I wonder if that's because of our gun toting dipshit gun culture, or because they can and have been outgunned in the past.

Probably both.

 

[The Lamonster]

shoot first, ask questions later.

 

[belvedere]

Can't bring myself to watch that video. Did the police shoot once and see if that stopped/slowed him down or did they keep firing until they killed him

 

[FamousLastX]

Can't bring myself to watch that video. Did the police shoot once and see if that stopped/slowed him down or did they keep firing until they killed him

Kept firing until they killed him, at least two of the shots appeared to be while he was already dropping/dropped.

 

[BlastProcessing]

The velcro media thing was silly and so was the cops reaction but honestly highlighting it over the rest of the stuff going on is sillier.

Personally I think the press as a whole has done a terrible job; both sides being portrayed as non-humans. The Police are a 'State' on one side and The Public are 'Animals' to another.

Vice I generally think do a really good job but there is a smell of voyeurism about them that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Press need to sit in people homes; have some chats and also chat to the Police. As it is we are seeing protests and press briefings. These are just events and stories; their not the issue in Ferguson.

Suspect local news is a lot different though; or I'd hope.

To me, the galling part of that video is the hypocrisy. The Police Officer's point is that even though the journalist has the trappings of press, ( A camera, a vest and a "press" badge) those are irellevent and only actual identification is valid. That's a fair point, but there are tons of Officer's there with the trappings of Law Enforcement ( A uniform and a firearm) and no identification.

Too many of these officers are walking around without name tags or badges. They demand the protesters respect their authority while displaying no credentials other than military grade weaponry. The word has been thrown around a ton recently but that actually is "thuggish" behavior. Part of protecting and serving is allowing yourself to be held accountable.

I would love to see officers without proper identification challenged and, if they can't present proper identification, charged with impersonating an officer.

Spoiler

That will obviously never happen and would be a terrible idea, but still.

 

[zer0blivion]

Am I crazy for thinking that some officers (or hateful organizations like the KKK) got some people to start crap every night? Seems like the people in Ferguson are pretty peaceful. I wouldn't be surprised if they had some undercover people do some shady stuff.

Didn't the NYPD get caught doing this with protesters?

It's not unheard of.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

United States
In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation includes FBI agents posing as political activists to disrupt the activities of political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and the American Indian Movement.

New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City.[4]

Denver police officers were also alleged to have used undercover detectives to instigate violence against police during the 2008 Democratic National Convention.[5]

 

[GulAtiCa]

Can't bring myself to watch that video. Did the police shoot once and see if that stopped/slowed him down or did they keep firing until they killed him

They shot 7 shots, then waited a good second after he was on ground, and fired 2 more shots.

Video isn't graphic, it's a cellphone video (vertical) from far away, so you can barely see the guy. So you see him die, but don't see blood/etc

 

[block tower]

Can't bring myself to watch that video. Did the police shoot once and see if that stopped/slowed him down or did they keep firing until they killed him

nope cops emptied a clip into him. at best he was walking toward them and they just shot him. i could care less about cop rules, dude didnt seem like an actual threat. he was threatening them, but i couldn't see how he was actually posing a threat. these cops are some fearful pussies, thats for sure.

 

[FamousLastX]

I heard him say 'I'm tired of this shit.' several times before the police arrived. I'll bet he was depressed or mentally ill. It's so damned sad. It even looked like he stole two sodas with the intent of bringing cops to kill him. I mean, he set them down, and then just waited for the police to arrive.

He needed help, not to be killed.

Which brings up another point of mental illness, and how from my experience and what i've seen, most police departments don't seem to have proper training on how to deal with incidents concerning individuals in that situation. That's best off a discussion for another thread, but still something that I seriously think needs to be addressed in officer training.

 

[Cloudy]

So, someone did film the shooting of Kajieme Powell (not graphic but is still a video of a man dieing, so be warned about that). That's the guy with the knife yelling "shoot me" killed yesterday.

One shot would have dropped that guy. Why so many? And what about tasers? WTF is wrong with these cops?

Dude probably thought cops wouldn't shoot with all this Mike Brown drama. Buddy was wrong cos these cops don't give a shit

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

What is this a video of?

 

[GulAtiCa]

One shot would have dropped that guy. Why so many? And what about tasers? WTF is wrong with these cops?

Dude probably thought cops wouldn't shoot with all this Mike Brown drama. Buddy was wrong cos these cops don't give a shit

They way he talked before and during the cop's interactions with him, makes me think he wanted them to kill him.

 

[belvedere]

Kept firing until they killed him, at least two of the shots appeared to be while he was already dropping/dropped.

Fucking despicable. And to see this happen literally, in the middle of a highly volatile, globally covered tragedy.

 

[FamousLastX]

What is this a video of?

Shooting of a black male armed with a knife by St. Louis City police officers that occured yesterday afternoon.

 

[Cloudy]

They way he talked before and during the cop's interactions with him, makes me think he wanted them to kill him.

He was obviously mentally ill. Didn't deserve to be gunned down like an animal though. Would those cops have shot a white person or even a black woman that fast? I doubt it.

At least try to fucking back off and give him time. It's a knife not a gun. Shit....

 

[Gonzalez]

nope cops emptied a clip into him.

I thought automatics hold up to 15 bullets? Look I'm no gun expert, but I'm a Virtua Cop expert, dammit.

 

[PantherLotus]

Any more news on that woman shot in the head from page 1?? That one raised my hackles like nothing else.

 

[Lime]

15 seconds.

7 shots.

Followed by 2 more shots.

And then cuff the corpse.

And then lie about the story.

This is your police in action. Absolutely fucking horrible. They're supposed to protect and serve. Instead they just roll up on the curb, get out, and empty a clip into whatever person with the most melanin.

Fuck the US society. I'm seriously appalled that this continues to get a pass.

 

[block tower]

Which brings up another point of mental illness, and how from my experience and what i've seen, most police departments don't seem to have proper training on how to deal with incidents concerning individuals in that situation. That's best off a discussion for another thread, but still something that I seriously think needs to be addressed in officer training.

starting to wonder what it is these cops are even trained to do, they didn't even attempt to talk down the situation. they just had gun drawn. notice the guy in the video doesn't threaten the bystanders or even the cops. he just keeps yelling "shoot me". i really dont see how this type of response from cops is right. im not saying the guy wasn't provoking cops, but really, you shoot the guy ten times abd HAVE to shoot to kill? seems like it was completely unnecessary.

EDIT: is the news running the video of cops shooting this guy?

 

[minx]

One shot would have dropped that guy. Why so many? And what about tasers? WTF is wrong with these cops?

Dude probably thought cops wouldn't shoot with all this Mike Brown drama. Buddy was wrong cos these cops don't give a shit

Cmon cloudy. I thought you were smarter than that. You don't user a taser against someone with a knife. People can shrug off taser and keep attacking as the prongs don't always both attach to the skin. A deadly weapon should always met with a deadly weapon. And as to the shots while he was on the ground. Maybe they were not necessary, but there have been cases where a subject will get get back up after being shot and attack officers.

 

[thepotatoman]

NPR had an analyst on yesterday who said that law enforcement in the US are more fearful of being shot than what you might find in Europe. I wonder if that's because of our gun toting dipshit gun culture, or because they can and have been outgunned in the past.

Europe also doesn't execute their prisoners.

The problem really is that everyone in this country thinks criminals are all subhuman, and the police are superhuman. There's this idea that in every single situation, a cop's safety outways the safety of citizens, and a criminal's safety isn't even worth considering.

Could using a taser save 1000 criminal lives but cost 1 cop his? Then we're not going to use tasers. That's the way we view this profession.

 

[block tower]

Cmon cloudy. I thought you were smarter than that. You don't user a taser against someone with a knife. People can shrug off taser and keep attacking as the prongs don't always both attach to the skin. A deadly weapon should always met with a deadly weapon. And as to the shots while he was on the ground. Maybe they were not necessary, but there have been cases where a subject will get get back up after being shot and attack officers.

are you serious? dude literally brought a knife to a gun fight. if the only way officers can handle threatening situations is by the use of gun then our cops are even less apt thani thought. im loosing so much respect for the profession as a whole. at this rate i might as well call the papa johns pizza guy for assistance instead of local cops.

 

[Cloudy]

Cmon cloudy. I thought you were smarter than that. You don't user a taser against someone with a knife. People can shrug off taser and keep attacking as the prongs don't always both attach to the skin. A deadly weapon should always met with a deadly weapon. And as to the shots while he was on the ground. Maybe they were not necessary, but there have been cases where a subject will get get back up after being shot and attack officers.

You may be right about the taser but no way did they have to shoot that many times. And I seriously doubt they would have been so quick to shoot if he wasn't a black male.

There were 2 cops, how are they not trained to take down one guy holding a knife?

 

[enzo_gt]

15 seconds.

7 shots.

Followed by 2 more shots.

And then cuff the corpse.

And then lie about the story.

This is your police in action. Absolutely fucking horrible. They're supposed to protect and serve. Instead they just roll up on the curb, get out, and empty a clip into whatever person with the most melanin.

Fuck the US society. I'm seriously appalled that this continues to get a pass.

It's been almost 2 weeks since the shooting, things are still escalating and this hasn't been resolved yet.

With every passing day we get reconfirmation that the system is broken beyond belief and is ludicrously unfit for the job it's supposed to do. Obama has to bite his tongue, the mainstream media is perpetuating misinformation and the cops continue running their negro internment camp.

 

[thepotatoman]

starting to wonder what it is these cops are even trained to do, they didn't even attempt to talk down the situation. they just had gun drawn. notice the guy in the video doesn't threaten the bystanders or even the cops. he just keeps yelling "shoot me". i really dont see how this type of response from cops is right. im not saying the guy wasn't provoking cops, but really, you shoot the guy ten times abd HAVE to shoot to kill? seems like it was completely unnecessary.

EDIT: is the news running the video of cops shooting this guy?

I got the video from Chris Hayes twitter account, saying he's covering it tonight, so at least one guy is. Don't know if others are.

 

[PantherLotus]

I always understood that officers should avoid killing a suspect at nearly every possible cost except for the endangerment of other civilians. Once that dude was shot he was effectively disarmed. Everything else is cops just losing their minds because they don't belong -- judge, jury, executioner.

 

[Pizoxuat]

Any more news on that woman shot in the head from page 1?? That one raised my hackles like nothing else.

I'm trying to follow this story, but it seems the media has no interest in finding out who shot Mya Aaten-White or where the bullet has disappeared to. The Toronto Sun has covered the incident but with no new information.

 

[Cloudy]

Also, can we get pictures of this knife? I'm hearing a lot of "look liked" a steak knife. Was it a steak knife or not? This shit is so distressing to me. He certainly wasn't lunging at them

 

[Yagharek]

Civil rights protests reference

EDIT: Beaten.

Jesus. I can't say I've ever seen this image, but can imagine the context. Bayonets raised is terrifying.

 

[More_Badass]

Any more news on that woman shot in the head from page 1?? That one raised my hackles like nothing else.

This? Have any of the major news channels covered it?

 

[FamousLastX]

Also, can we get pictures of this knife? I'm hearing a lot of "look liked" a steak knife. Was it a steak knife or not? This shit is so distressing to me. He certainly wasn't lunging at them

No but the argument being used to justify it is that he could have possibly lunged at them if they didn't shoot. Forget de-escalation, they don't have an obligation to try and do that it seems.

 

[minx]

You may be right about the taser but no way did they have to shoot that many times. And I seriously doubt they would have been so quick to shoot if he wasn't a black male.

There were 2 cops, how are they not trained to take down one guy holding a knife?

Explain to me how two officers could safely take down a crazed guy with a knife.

 

[Nanashrew]

I always understood that officers should avoid killing a suspect at nearly every possible cost except for the endangerment of other civilians. Once that dude was shot he was effectively disarmed. Everything else is cops just losing their minds because they don't belong -- judge, jury, executioner.

Everyone wants to be Judge Dredd when really they should be Andy Griffith.

Explain to me how two officers could safely take down a crazed guy with a knife.

Multiple options:

Talk to him.

Self defense training to subdue the subject without serious injury

Taser

 

[Byakuya769]

Explain to me how two officers could safely take down a crazed guy with a knife.

Talk to him.

From the moment they stepped out of their car, the conversation was "drop the knife or die."

 

[block tower]

Can anybody point me to anything resembling legitimate information on this fractured eye (most likely) BS? I'm talking with someone who is convinced it is 100% true.



"Outgunned".

Hasn't that happened like... Twice in US police history? I'll try to dig up the article I read on it a few years back... They really drummed up the use of that phrase to justify their transformation into the force they are today.

well that's not a lie. most gangs in Chicago (my city) have high powered automatic and semiautomatic weapons that they buy from illegal arms dealers, steal from suppliers or getvsold by shady military suppliers. the cops are definitely getting out gunned. but i agree its no excuse to militarize the police. if the police are in over their heads then call in the NG or army who has better experience with that type of situation.