Doctor Who Series 8 |OT| We've fucking time-travelled, yes?

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The Daleks haven't been great outside of series 1, that's true.

At least they aren't the Cybermen. Do THOSE guys need a great episode badly, or what?

They're basically cannon fodder at this point.

Cybermen, like the Master, have always been a bit shit when you really actually properly think about it. That's part of the fun of them, of course. I was really bummed out when Gaiman/Moffat seemed to think the solution was to make them mega powerful - Dalek powerful - last year with their ability to 'upgrade' on the fly and all that. It just makes them more boring, I think; The Cybermen were always meant to be a race of humanoids (or humans!) who traded their humanity away in search of eternal life, and end up constantly scrabbling in the dark corners of the universe for the next upgrade to prolong their lives further.

The Cybermen should be such that they're only really a threat en masse, whereas with the Daleks one should always be enough, which makes an army of them even more threatening. The fact that the Cybermen are crap and don't stand a chance is part of the sheer joy of Doomsday; the Cybermen talk a big game and then four Daleks quite literally glide through hundreds of them like a knife through hot butter - AS IT SHOULD BE.
 
I hate to give the impression I'm super negative on this episode. Like I said, I'm pretty loose and just go along for the ride with new and old Who alike.

The start of this episode bothers me though because of the attitude. I'm an old Who fan, but calling out fangirls I think is both childish and unwarranted. Everyone has a favorite Doctor or a favorite period of the show. One of my favorite things about the series is that it's lots of different things to different people, and it always has been. The whole start of this episode is Moffat apologizing and begging when neither are necessary, and the cherry on top is he's ugly and characteristically unsubtle about it.

I hated almost everything except the dialog and characters during the RTD era, but I've spent 30 years of my life going along for the ride with this series, and after living through Colin Baker and having no show at all for 15 years, I know how low it can go. But this bit was in my opinion roughly as obnoxious as Colin telling Peri to live with it, and I'd hate for the fans on the fence to similarly tune out because of it.

I'm certainly not suggesting this show is in any trouble, and with all due respect to Colin Baker I think Capaldi is already a better fit for the role. I just think the fans - all of them - are better served with a best foot forward rather than an admonishment.
 
It's about time the Daleks got some arms and legs. I mean, I'm surprised the issue of stairs hasn't arisen yet

They did :P The episodes weren't particularly good. And stairs aren't much of an issue since they can hover.

Cyberman are so bad its fun. Like, I don't normally say that kind of thing, but something about the Cyberman just works for me on that level

Pretty much the same for me. The Cybermen and the Daleks are tradition. I don't want them to take up a huge chunk of the season but I'd be disappointed if they disappeared entirely.
 
I hate to give the impression I'm super negative on this episode. Like I said, I'm pretty loose and just go along for the ride with new and old Who alike.

The start of this episode bothers me though because of the attitude. I'm an old Who fan, but calling out fangirls I think is both childish and unwarranted. Everyone has a favorite Doctor or a favorite period of the show. One of my favorite things about the series is that it's lots of different things to different people, and it always has been. The whole start of this episode is Moffat apologizing and begging when neither are necessary, and the cherry on top is he's ugly and characteristically unsubtle about it.

I hated almost everything except the dialog and characters during the RTD era, but I've spent 30 years of my life going along for the ride with this series, and after living through Colin Baker and having no show at all for 15 years, I know how low it can go. But this bit was in my opinion roughly as obnoxious as Colin telling Peri to live with it, and I'd hate for the fans on the fence to similarly tune out because of it.

I'm certainly not suggesting this show is in any trouble, and with all due respect to Colin Baker I think Capaldi is already a better fit for the role. I just think the fans - all of them - are better served with a best foot forward rather than an admonishment.

I think this wasn't a great episode but the important things that really mattered was that Clara came to life properly for the first time since her introduction and that Capaldi sold himself magnificently... and those are the things that really matter. It was also wonderfully shot.

I do sort of agree with the Clara-as-avatar for the fangirl base thing, though. It feels a bit weird. I don't feel as bad about it as you appear to, but I feel where you're coming from.

The thing I've been trying to puzzle out in my head personally has actually been if I see Smith's cameo as cute and cool or as a weird admission of fear about an older man, a "Well, maybe it'll be easier if they hear it in-show, direct fro him" admission.

I have no doubt Capaldi's going to be excellent anyway... In the words of that hick in South Park, if the shippers and tumblr crowd don't like it, they can git out.
 
Cybermen, like the Master, have always been a bit shit when you really actually properly think about it. That's part of the fun of them, of course. I was really bummed out when Gaiman/Moffat seemed to think the solution was to make them mega powerful - Dalek powerful - last year with their ability to 'upgrade' on the fly and all that. It just makes them more boring, I think; The Cybermen were always meant to be a race of humanoids (or humans!) who traded their humanity away in search of eternal life, and end up constantly scrabbling in the dark corners of the universe for the next upgrade to prolong their lives further.

The Cybermen should be such that they're only really a threat en masse, whereas with the Daleks one should always be enough, which makes an army of them even more threatening. The fact that the Cybermen are crap and don't stand a chance is part of the sheer joy of Doomsday; the Cybermen talk a big game and then four Daleks quite literally glide through hundreds of them like a knife through hot butter - AS IT SHOULD BE.
Yeah, Cybermen and Daleks as menaces are a bit too similar now for my tastes. I'd love to get an episode where the script moves the Cybermen forwards (or backwards) so we'd get their current version to be more thematically unique, but I won't hold my breath considering that the episode that was supposed to make it happen did the opposite of that (Nightmare in Silver).
 
Whoops, lol. Haven't seen the Eccleston ones yet. I'm kind of working my way backward. Well, jeez, so all they have is extermination guns. They're still only scary because the characters say they're scary.
 
The Cybermen should be such that they're only really a threat en masse, whereas with the Daleks one should always be enough, which makes an army of them even more threatening. The fact that the Cybermen are crap and don't stand a chance is part of the sheer joy of Doomsday; the Cybermen talk a big game and then four Daleks quite literally glide through hundreds of them like a knife through hot butter - AS IT SHOULD BE.

My problem wasn't that a Cyberman can't take on a Dalek one on one

It's that a sufficiently large group of Cybermen should be able to take on a single Dalek. There were ridiculous numbers of Cybermen in Doomsday, and they killed exactly zero Daleks.

Couple that with the fact that an onscreen upgrade attempt has been defeated via the power of love, and they're basically a Sesame Street version of the Borg at this point.
 
Yeah, Cybermen and Daleks as menaces are a bit too similar now for my tastes. I'd love to get an episode where the script moves the Cybermen forwards (or backwards) so we'd get their current version to be more thematically unique, but I won't hold my breath considering that the episode that was supposed to make it happen did the opposite of that (Nightmare in Silver).

The moment they started absorbing laser beams in the exact same way the Dalekanium shell is supposed to I thought "god damn it," to be honest. I think the episode took some really positive steps in other ways - I think the hammer horror sort of thing about them removing heads and arms and legs, and one part of a Cyberman being as potentially deadly as the full thing (also explored in The Pandorica Opens when Amy discovers that lone Cyberman head) is actually a really good fit for what the Cybermen are thematically... but the whole thing of making them mega powerful just falls flat for me.

The funny thing is Nightmare in Silver has some dialogue which suggests the opposite - when they're talking about how they're impossible to fight a war against, because every soldier they down, they cannibalize and use to repair themselves - that's great for the Cybermen. That fits. The 'upgrade in progress...' thing, making them invincible to anything in short order, isn't so hot. I wonder, if Doomsday happened again, would four or five Cybermen fall and then would the others all become immune to Dalek guns as Daleks are to Cybermen guns, leading to a stalemate? Ahaha.

Whoops, lol. Haven't seen the Eccleston ones yet. I'm kind of working my way backward. Well, jeez, so all they have is extermination guns. They're still only scary because the characters say they're scary.

In Britain, fifty-something years of British culture just dictates that the Daleks, in particular, are scary. It's just... assimilated. I was born the year that Doctor Who was taken off the air, but I distinctly remember knowing what a Dalek was, despite never seeing the show, growing up. My earliest memory of Daleks in a televisual sense was actually a KitKat ad campaign, where they had the tagline "Have a break, have a KitKat," and the punch line was that the Daleks have a break, and so are rolling around shouting "PEACE AND LOVE" and waving peace flags. Somehow, despite never seeing a Dalek in a dramatic context, I knew what they were, I knew that they screamed Exterminate, and I got the joke.

Anyway... I think they're actually in reality scary for different reasons. The Daleks are meant to be the ultimate expression of that which is different to us. They're the nazis, no doubt, created by a man with memories of the war fresh in mind. They're evil incarnate, and impossibly, terrifyingly powerful.

The Cybermen are really meant to be us. They're meant to be what we can become if we become so desperate, or so greedy, that we throw humanity away. In the classic series, at least, they were also always a bit desperate, struggling, always at the end of their rope. Weirdly, that trait passed to the Daleks for a few years in New Who, as it was constantly the last Dalek(s) in existence struggling to re-establish themselves and scores and scores of Cybermen. Lately, the two have just shifted to occupy this very similar space, and it's a shame.
 
I don't think there's a standards barometer that's universal, to be fair. I loved Capaldi last night but found the episode to be over-long and poorly paced. On the flip side, however, I'm the type of person who defends Love & Monsters. So, everybody's mileage varies, but I personally adore those debates.

Love and Monsters is much better than the Slitheen stuff in series 1, I'll defend it as well.

Honestly, my favorite thing about these threads is reading Kuwabara's review after each episode, being antagonistic as he is towards the Moffat era. I nearly always disagree with what is posted, but they're still fun to read, and help contribute to preventing the place from becoming an echo chamber.
 
Frankly the only thing saving Season 1 from being complete crap is The Empy Child / The Doctor Dances. That was a magnificent two parter and the resolution shows what could have been with Eccleston if we'd had better writers for him.

I personally think Series 1 was all around great. The only bad episode in the whole season was The Unquiet Dead. The show has had some better episodes than the best of Series 1 (but not many have actually topped Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways), but there's never been such a high base level of quality as in that season since.

Series 4 had some really strong episodes (Partners in Crime, The Fires of Pompeii, Planet of the Ood, Midnight and Turn Left are all fantastic), but it also had some really mediocre ones. Series 1 had a consistency in vision across the whole thing. If they had fucked it up, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about Doctor Who today.
 
I havent seen the classic ones, but arent suppose to be two classes of Cybermen, ones from the classic and the others from the new ones (Mondas and Cybus IIRC). Where the classic ones better?

Whoops, lol. Haven't seen the Eccleston ones yet. I'm kind of working my way backward. Well, jeez, so all they have is extermination guns. They're still only scary because the characters say they're scary.

Wait until you see Dalek and
Doomsday
then.
They are pretty great in both of those episodes.

Dalek was my first, so I loved them from day 1.
 
Like others, I also didn't like Clara being used as a proxy to convey a message to fan girls. I didn't like that Clara had already seen all the Doctor's regeneration and even the old version of the Eleventh Doctor, but couldn't get over Twelth looking different. Sure you can say "it's still her first regeneration and you don't know until you experience it" but that seems like a very contrived excuse when we've already seen her comfortable with the Doctor no matter what he looked like. But then again turning Clara into a fan girl in love with a young Doctor is more character development than she's had before, so that's something.
 
Finally got to watch the episode

Not sure how I feel about the new doctor yet, but I want to like him!

New found respect for smiths Doctor, not meaning anything bad about capaldi by this

Clara did some actor this episode, was never a huge fan. Think I'm jumping on the wagon now though

Jenny is pretty attractive! But thought that previous season too

Hmmm that ending, what could that be all about?
 
So I have to say I finally got around to watching and I liked it. Capaldi's Dr looks like it's going to be an interesting one without a doubt. Loved the end of the episode too. Look forward to seeing where they're going with the seeds they've planted in this episode.
 
I haven't seen this expressed for several pages, but I have to say this: guys, the expressions joy at all the teenage girls who supposedly dislike this episode because of the new Doctor's age is completely uncalled for. First of all, even if there are a ton of girls expressing this opinion, that doesn't mean that the majority of teenage female fans only watch the show for the hot stars. There are hundreds of shows with attractive leads; if that was really the main draw, then why this show? And more importantly, even if there are a ton of girls that disapprove of having an old lead star, why the hell does that matter? It really just reeks of the entire "fake fan" thing; girls are allowed to like or disapprove of what they want in the show, and that doesn't make them any less of fans until they themselves decide they are not fans.

Anyway, this was a good episode. It was a bit uncomfortable seeing the Doctor act like a crazy homeless, but he calmed down as the episode went on.
 
I haven't seen this expressed for several pages, but I have to say this: guys, the expressions joy at all the teenage girls who supposedly dislike this episode because of the new Doctor's age is completely uncalled for. First of all, even if there are a ton of girls expressing this opinion, that doesn't mean that the majority of teenage female fans only watch the show for the hot stars. There are hundreds of shows with attractive leads; if that was really the main draw, then why this show? And more importantly, even if there are a ton of girls that disapprove of having an old lead star, why the hell does that matter? It really just reeks of the entire "fake fan" thing; girls are allowed to like or disapprove of what they want in the show, and that doesn't make them any less of fans until they themselves decide they are not fans.

Anyway, this was a good episode. It was a bit uncomfortable seeing the Doctor act like a crazy homeless, but he calmed down as the episode went on.

Wasn't that the point of Clara's rebuttal to Vastra, though? That she wasn't just there because she was after his pretty face? Like, I thought the whole point of that was scene was actually to shove it in the face of people who were too concerned about the supposedly upset fan girls.
 
Enjoyed
• Clara, for pretty much the first time ever. Whatever they've changed, it's working.
• Capaldi. Already liked him from before Doctor Who, and he's good here.
• New titles. Not sold on the music yet (lacks power, or something) but the visuals are nicely conceived and well executed.
• Cinematography. I thought this looks quite nice for the most part.
• Everyone else is already saying it, but Jenny is just dreamy.

Didn't Enjoy
• Endless Jenny/Vastra/Strax schtick. For the hundredth time, yes, I know you're freakin' married. And look, Strax is bad at understanding humans! Almost as funny as it was in every other appearance he's ever made.
• Slapstick. Is this really necessary? You don't have to hit Clara in the face for the newspaper joke to be funny. You don't need to add a comedy "BOING!" sound effect for Vastra knocking the Doctor out to be effective. This isn't the Looney Tunes.
• Plot. Kind of a mess. Callbacks to episodes well over half a decade ago, stuff with the Dinosaur that turned out to not really mean anything... this could've been rethought and pruned back to a neater 45 minutes, I think.

I enjoyed it, but I probably wouldn't call it a good story. A promising start in other ways, though.

Agree with all this. Particularly the Jenny/Vastra/Strax schtick. Capaldi was as fantastic as he was always going to be - just hope he's not wasted by shit writing like the show has seen over the last two seasons.
 
Yo, Strax winging a paper into Clara's forehead was fucking FUNNY. It was the scene afterwards that sucked. If it had cut straight from her getting hit to Twelve in the alley looking at that mirror, it would have been perfect.
 
Watched it a second time and I really enjoyed it a lot more. Any nitpicks I had were pretty much gone with the exception of the "bonk" sound effect.

Also the episode looked GORGEOUS!!
 
At least they aren't the Cybermen. Do THOSE guys need a great episode badly, or what?

Big Finish has been very kind to the Cybermen. Apart from Spare Parts being one of the best Doctor Who stories full stop, they've got other good ones like The Silver Turk and The Harvest.

They definitely need a good TV outing though. Haven't really had one of those since the sixties.
 
Was the sound mixing really bad? There were so many times I couldn't hear voices due to music and sound effects being oddly loud.

Was a less than ideal experience for me as well. Kind of a mess, really.

I generally enjoy Jenny, Vastra and Strax, but there seemed to be a bit of redundancy going on in this episode. Along the lines of "we'll take three or four cracks at [thing] and keep what works," yet somehow all of it made it in. Will try the episode again, mostly just posted to commiserate with piratepwnsninja. Rear channels. Very loud. Much noise.
 
fuck i loved capaldi. maybe it's just because i'm so used to him but he felt like malcolm tucker when he's on his better behaviour.

very jerkish but also inquisitive and potentially friendly. and i know they mentioned he swapped a watch for it but i still got the impression that he robbed the coat from the hobo lol.

sound mixing as usual for this series is shit, couldn't make out a few words at times. episode itself was meh, eleventh hour was an amazing inroduction to a new doctor. this was kind of mediocre, but the doctor himself was great.

scenes with jenny, vastra and clara were kind of boring. kept wanting them to return to the doctor.
 
Yo, Strax winging a paper into Clara's forehead was fucking FUNNY. It was the scene afterwards that sucked. If it had cut straight from her getting hit to Twelve in the alley looking at that mirror, it would have been perfect.

Maybe I'm talking about my ass (what's new) but I do wonder if the episode had to be a certain length to be shown in cinemas. As people have said it very much felt like an extended cut with all the deleted scenes kept in.

Plus, I guess they had to include all the gadgets that kid designed for the Paternoster Gang. Hence Strax using his weird examining thing.
 
Yo, Strax winging a paper into Clara's forehead was fucking FUNNY. It was the scene afterwards that sucked. If it had cut straight from her getting hit to Twelve in the alley looking at that mirror, it would have been perfect.
Yeah, not getting the issues with the newspaper part, had me cracking up. The cartoon hammer was too much, though.

One thing I've really loved about Twelve so far is Capaldi's played him with a sense of angry desperation and fear that we aren't used to really seeing. Smith was fantastic at playing off the lonely sadness aspect with his trademark whimsy, so I'm curious to see what lighter aspects Capaldi will play off of this darker side.
 
Just finished a re-watch. I mostly liked it the first time around, but felt it off a little in places. Watching it again it felt better though, it felt smoother and more enjoyable to watch overall.

Maybe the first time around I was more anxious to see him more in control etc, and didn't really want to watch any sort of prelude/regeneration sickness stuff, so kept wanting it to push on.

I also thought the Strax paper bit was funny, I don't even mind his next scene with the health examination.

Also, in the scene after the Doctor picks Clara up and introduces his new costume etc.
He basically admitted that 11 was attracted to Clara and wanted to be her boyfriend to some degree, right?
 
When I think series one, I think:
  • The best series finale they've ever done in the form of Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways (Pandorica Opens/Big Bang and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday come close, but no cigar)
  • Father's Day is just magnificent in general even if the enemies don't really slot into the wider canon too well; Piper's best performance and arguably the second best performance of any new Who companion only behind Tate in Turn Left
  • Incredibly, Boom Town remains one of the best explorations of both the Doctor's morality on crime & punishment and what he does to a companion's life (the Rose/Mickey scenes) there's been.
  • The second best Dalek story in the full 50 year history, and the best modern Dalek story by a country mile.

And you only had to get through farting aliens to get to the good stuff.

I remember following a lot of forums gauge reaction when Doctor Who was first aired in the US. I was positive that the Aliens of London two-parter would turn a lot of people off. I'm glad many stuck around.

I agree on Boom Town as well. It's an incredibly underrated episode.

As for the finale, Parting of the Ways is still the best finale but I'm not a huge fan of Bad Wolf so I generally give the edge to Pandorica Opens/Big Bang.
 
Agree with all this. Particularly the Jenny/Vastra/Strax schtick. Capaldi was as fantastic as he was always going to be - just hope he's not wasted by shit writing like the show has seen over the last two seasons.

Yea if I had to have one complaint it is those 3. They were interesting oh many many moons ago. Now though they've become a joke and one that has long over stayed it's welcome. It's a shame too because they used to be interesting.
 
My problem with the trio is this: they are immune to death.
That is not a good thing in Doctor Who, imho.

We had a character being immune to death, it was Captain Jack. But it was a known fact about him. The trio? However beautiful and sassy Jenny is, their presence still means "no danger whatsoever".

What I like the most about the Big Finsih 8th Doctor audio stories is that they felt real stories, with proper endings, tragedies, somethimes. The trio lessens that effect. I just wish they would once again tackle social commentary, let the doctor go somewhere where the situation is hopeless. Capaldi is a great fit for that, but only when the situation is not relieved of any kind of threat.

To add an example: if Deep Breath was an audio play, instead of Vastra/Strax/Jenny, we would have 3 random humans from London. They would most likely meat their tragic fate by the hand of the robots. Compare that to the comedic "oh, we are in danger" parts seen in the actual episode.
 
S1 was the worst for me. Parting of the Ways is a great finale (agreed that Bad Wolf is a very strange and not-so-good ep) and Father's Day is one of my personal favorites, but that's about it for me. A lot of so-so forgettable episodes and a couple of super bad ones too. I'm also that one person who doesn't like The Doctor Dances two-parter; thought the constant "Are you my mummy?" was more annoying than scary.
 
My problem with the trio is this: they are immune to death.
That is not a good thing in Doctor Who, imho.

We had a character being immune to death, it was Captain Jack. But it was a known fact about him. The trio? However beautiful and sassy Jenny is, their presence still means "no danger whatsoever".

What I like the most about the Big Finsih 8th Doctor audio stories is that they felt real stories, with proper endings, tragedies, somethimes. The trio lessens that effect. I just wish they would once again tackle social commentary, let the doctor go somewhere where the situation is hopeless. Capaldi is a great fit for that, but only when the situation is not relieved of any kind of threat.

To add an example: if Deep Breath was an audio play, instead of Vastra/Strax/Jenny, we would have 3 random humans from London. They would most likely meat their tragic fate by the hand of the robots. Compare that to the comedic "oh, we are in danger" parts seen in the actual episode.

Moffat doesn't really seen to like killing, though. Everybody Lives was more a mission statement than anything, and from River to the fact that we went three years (!) without seeing a Dalek exterminate a human on screen despite them putting in multiple appearances and all that. Say what you will about Voyage of the Damned, Davies built a set of relate-able disaster movie archetypes and then roasted them, making sure that one of the few that survived was the bastard nobody liked. If Moffat wrote that episode they probably would've all lived, it's one of those weird things. He kills no-namers, but the second there's an actual character, even a one-off one, they're immune to death.

The cop-outs of Strax's death originally and Jenny's death last year still really bum me out. That scene in particular with Jenny, "Ma'am, I think I've been murdered," is fucking great, and then they cop out of it.
 
The moment they started absorbing laser beams in the exact same way the Dalekanium shell is supposed to I thought "god damn it," to be honest. I think the episode took some really positive steps in other ways - I think the hammer horror sort of thing about them removing heads and arms and legs, and one part of a Cyberman being as potentially deadly as the full thing (also explored in The Pandorica Opens when Amy discovers that lone Cyberman head) is actually a really good fit for what the Cybermen are thematically... but the whole thing of making them mega powerful just falls flat for me.

The funny thing is Nightmare in Silver has some dialogue which suggests the opposite - when they're talking about how they're impossible to fight a war against, because every soldier they down, they cannibalize and use to repair themselves - that's great for the Cybermen. That fits. The 'upgrade in progress...' thing, making them invincible to anything in short order, isn't so hot. I wonder, if Doomsday happened again, would four or five Cybermen fall and then would the others all become immune to Dalek guns as Daleks are to Cybermen guns, leading to a stalemate? Ahaha.



In Britain, fifty-something years of British culture just dictates that the Daleks, in particular, are scary. It's just... assimilated. I was born the year that Doctor Who was taken off the air, but I distinctly remember knowing what a Dalek was, despite never seeing the show, growing up. My earliest memory of Daleks in a televisual sense was actually a KitKat ad campaign, where they had the tagline "Have a break, have a KitKat," and the punch line was that the Daleks have a break, and so are rolling around shouting "PEACE AND LOVE" and waving peace flags. Somehow, despite never seeing a Dalek in a dramatic context, I knew what they were, I knew that they screamed Exterminate, and I got the joke.

Anyway... I think they're actually in reality scary for different reasons. The Daleks are meant to be the ultimate expression of that which is different to us. They're the nazis, no doubt, created by a man with memories of the war fresh in mind. They're evil incarnate, and impossibly, terrifyingly powerful.

The Cybermen are really meant to be us. They're meant to be what we can become if we become so desperate, or so greedy, that we throw humanity away. In the classic series, at least, they were also always a bit desperate, struggling, always at the end of their rope. Weirdly, that trait passed to the Daleks for a few years in New Who, as it was constantly the last Dalek(s) in existence struggling to re-establish themselves and scores and scores of Cybermen. Lately, the two have just shifted to occupy this very similar space, and it's a shame.


HAHAHA I'd completely forgotten about that kitkat advert, just looked it up on YouTube, absolutely hilarious
 
Moffat doesn't really seen to like killing, though. Everybody Lives was more a mission statement than anything, and from River to the fact that we went three years (!) without seeing a Dalek exterminate a human on screen despite them putting in multiple appearances and all that. Say what you will about Voyage of the Damned, Davies built a set of relate-able disaster movie archetypes and then roasted them, making sure that one of the few that survived was the bastard nobody liked. If Moffat wrote that episode they probably would've all lived, it's one of those weird things. He kills no-namers, but the second there's an actual character, even a one-off one, they're immune to death.

The cop-outs of Strax's death originally and Jenny's death last year still really bum me out. That scene in particular with Jenny, "Ma'am, I think I've been murdered," is fucking great, and then they cop out of it.

Agree entirely. It felt like RTD's stories had actual stakes. I wonder if it's because Moffat has kids?
 
Oof. The first twenty minutes almost made me ashamed to be a Who fan. Then it got a lot better!

Bad:
- confused capaldi scenes. bad acting from everyone in the "bedroom" gag
- the dinosaur. inconsequential to the plot, waste of budget, and no one in london seems to particularly give a crap
- green screens. take them away
- the condescending, fourth-wall-breaking, downright aggressive dressing down of the audience about capaldi's appearance.
- acting like capaldi is a hideous beast
- vastra being condescending all the time anyway
- Strax
- horrible pacing: "The game's afoot!" cut to: everyone having tea in the exact same room
- how desperately moffat wants a cookie for making vastra and jenny gay. reminding us constantly

Good:
- everything capaldi, post-eyebrows scene
- "there are lines, but i didn't do the frowning"
- Clara, interesting for the first time EVER!
- Clara + Thirteen dialog from the restaurant on. Already better than with twelve. better writing?
- restaurant scene in general
- Clara's attempt to intimidate the robot + the crying bit. best acting from her maybe ever
- Twelve cameo (though unfortunately linked the show's clear fear that people will reject capaldi)


How I wish they would jettison vastra, strax, and jenny. Clara + Thirteen scenes give me hope!
 
Yeah, I think the whole "pretty face" scene was in defense of the young Doctors' supposedly shallow fans. At least that was my take on it.

Really like Capaldi thus far. He's funny but different and surprisingly vulnerable.
 
Jenny and Vastra marriage being mentioned so much is bad writing, but I always give it a personal pass because the trio is popular with children. The more children hear the fact that the characters they like are a lesbian couple, the better. Not trying to open a discussion about this, just my 2 cents. It's definitely something that could be written better and they've been in need of some depth for a while now.

#gayagenda

But really, the paternoster gang has a lot of untapped potential that I wish would be used outside of cartoon jokes and them doing the same things they always do when they're featured in an episode. A well-written spin-off with them could go places. Even a minisodes youtube thing would do.
 
I echo most of the sentiment here although I am a bit more lenient when it comes Strax, Vastra, and Jenny (oh, how I love thee)...For the most part I enjoyed it and if the plan from Moffit was to get me to hate, then accept, and finally like 13, then he did a good job. As other have also noted, this is the first time I actually liked Clara...she was a character with actual dimension to her and in some ways she echoed my sentiments of the loss of Smith.

In regards to Clara, it seems that here she is seen as nothing more than an avatar for the fangirls out there who were unhappy with Capaldi and I think that is being a bit unfair. Her character (although aware of regenerations) had never lived through one and it's a big change...Would it really make sense for Clara to blindly accept the massive change that Capaldi's doctor brings when he is COMPLETELY different to Smith both physically and emotionally? Yes, her arch mirrors what many fans think but it is also only natural that she should feel the same.

In any case, it's nice to have DW back and although I've seen all of the new Who, this is the first time I'll experience a new Doctor from the start and I must say, I like Capaldi so far.
 
My wife and daughter are huge fans of the show so we watched the episode together. They're also going to a movie theatre tonight!

I thought it was a clever episode because it had Clara going through what a lot of the younger fans may be going through. "Do I even want an older Doctor?"

The show has become more popular than ever with an international, mainstream appeal. It rose to that position however with increasingly younger Doctors. Older Doctors are apart of the show history however. I'm sure the folks at BBC asked themselves "Can we maintain our popularity with an older Doctor?"

So with this attempt I think they are walking slowly through that. Capaldi's Doctor has to convince Clara just as he has to convince the fans.
 
i didn't mind the slapstick, but the cartoon sound effects were a bit too much. other than that, it was a fun episode. Capaldi is great and Clara got her introduction personality back. hopefully it sticks around this time.
 
My problem with the trio is this: they are immune to death.
That is not a good thing in Doctor Who, imho.

We had a character being immune to death, it was Captain Jack. But it was a known fact about him. The trio? However beautiful and sassy Jenny is, their presence still means "no danger whatsoever".

What I like the most about the Big Finsih 8th Doctor audio stories is that they felt real stories, with proper endings, tragedies, somethimes. The trio lessens that effect. I just wish they would once again tackle social commentary, let the doctor go somewhere where the situation is hopeless. Capaldi is a great fit for that, but only when the situation is not relieved of any kind of threat.

To add an example: if Deep Breath was an audio play, instead of Vastra/Strax/Jenny, we would have 3 random humans from London. They would most likely meat their tragic fate by the hand of the robots. Compare that to the comedic "oh, we are in danger" parts seen in the actual episode.

How are they immune to death?
 
How are they immune to death?

He won't kill them off. They are too popular among kiddies as a trio.

It's not a gang if it is just a lesbian married couple, for example.

He already went back on Jenny and Straxes deaths.

I hope the Cybermen kill Clara.

They need to be credible. Having them kill off someone the audience is either invested in or trying to invest in would be a start.
 
The Daleks haven't been great outside of series 1, that's true.

At least they aren't the Cybermen. Do THOSE guys need a great episode badly, or what?

They're basically cannon fodder at this point.

The Cybermen need to move back towards to their origins if you ask me, I'm surprised nobody has tried to ask Moffat about that in the DW magazine. Go back to the old style where you can partially see the human inside and the creepy synthesized voices. Obviously update it so it looks modern though.

They obviously aren't afraid about scaring kids (that is an important thing in my opinion, kids can handle tons and that includes blood and people being shot) so I would go for it.
 
The Cybermen need to move back towards to their origins if you ask me, I'm surprised nobody has tried to ask Moffat about that in the DW magazine. Go back to the old style where you can partially see the human inside and the creepy synthesized voices. Obviously update it so it looks modern though.

They obviously aren't afraid about scaring kids (good if you ask me, kids can handle tons and that includes blood and people being shot) so I would go for it.

The first Cybermen are among the most scary things I have ever watched. They felt human, yet like a twisted version of our own desires for efficiency and perfection.

After that they looked more and more like robots and it is hard to tell the 'man' beneath/inside.

Update them, but get that edge back.

For those of you who are new to Doctor Who or have only watched Nu-Who, this is what their faces looked like:

DVDGra11b.png
 
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