Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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That Kotaku note from Stephen Totilo still doesn't read to me like they've certifiably done something wrong and are apologising for it. It says to me that due to concerns raised during the Zoe Quinn situation, they're taking steps to try and make sure a genuine conflict of interest doesn't arise in future. They've looked at stuff like the Patreon funding and gone "Whilst it's likely to be completely innocent, people may not see it that way, so it's best to be safe".

You're constructing a narrative of Kotaku based on what you falsely believe to be an admission of guilt. As for Patricia Hernandez's situation, I'm going to say having read on it this past half-hour, yeah, maybe there is something there to be looked at. There is still no concrete proof, but it would have been a much more acknowledgeable rallying-point than what the past couple of weeks have blown up over.

not "maybe" it's even in the reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ejs7v/gaming_journalists_patricia_hernandez_of_kotaku/ "ohh hey wanna stay over? sure! yay" while publicly in her tweets saying that she slept over at these devs houses all the while making articles like this promoting her games and even having a freaking link to play the game down in the bottom.

When writing in journalism you should —Avoid conflicts of interest, real or perceived. http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp third part down by acting independently.
 
....you didn't even look at the reddit post did you? She publicly addmitted to sleeping and staying over at this people's houses...how is that not a conflict of interest?

But did she publicly admit to sleeping with two developers and did Kotaku admit to that on their website?
 
I've never said it was coincidence but that doesn't mean it's conspiracy either, because I've already discussed it I'm gonna quote myself from 3 pages ago.

Wait, you dont think it is mainly about click bait? I sure as hell do. I'm not seeing value in 99% the way they have gone about talking about "equality", so I dunno seems pretty much "stir the pot" typical tabloid 24 hour news cycle crap to me.
 
Wait, you dont think it is mainly about click bait? I sure as hell do. I'm not seeing value in 99% the way they have gone about talking about "equality", so I dunno seems pretty much "stir the pot" typical tabloid 24 hour news cycle crap to me.

I haven't read all the articles in that picture so I can't comment on them individually. I was more saying that lots of articles on the same subject can often just = topical point worthy of discussion (or a trend becoming apparent), rather than something more sinister.

I think people jump to the clickbait argument too readily and that it's not as literal as being paid per click.

What "equality" are we talking about? I'm a tad confused on that one.

The titles were more than just "gamers are dead. hyuk hyuk. ironic hyperbole".

Other article titles were:
Why Are Gamers So Angry
A Guide to Ending “Gamers”
’Gamers’ don’t have to be your audience. ‘Gamers’ are over.
The End of Gamers
The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them

That sounds pretty negative and not just in a sarcastic way.

I'll repeat: the simultaneous appearance of these articles isn't a "conspiracy" per se. Rather, it's just a reaction of unprofessional writers who have perhaps been caught in a lie and they are lashing out against their accusers with polemic aimed at discrediting their accusers.

But those are all perfectly legitimate topics to discuss. I mean there has always been a lot of anger around gaming culture and it IS changing.

What lie are they covering up?
 
Wait, you dont think it is mainly about click bait? I sure as hell do. I'm not seeing value in 99% the way they have gone about talking about "equality", so I dunno seems pretty much "stir the pot" typical tabloid 24 hour news cycle crap to me.

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Nah the article on the right couldn't be clickbait I mean just look at that title I mean it's totally about equality.
 
So, it's okay to be part a day of protest against being labelled as one group and then do completely the same thing by pointing to an obviously aggravating person and declaring the entirety of the opposition to be like that?

By pointing out that people like Ben Kuchera and Patricia Hernandez are chummy with devs and others giving them positive press and constantly being proven that they're breaching the code of ethics. Doesn't really make it hard to believe that these "journalists" could also being pushing their agenda without consequence.
 
I find this really hard to follow, but is it basically outrage about a girl having sex?

Nope not about Zoe, it's about the people she slept with and how cozy devs are with press Kotaku even admitted that Nathan Grayson was romantically involved with Zoe which shows this crap they're getting away with. Which lead to other "journalists" protecting them viciously while also being hyprocrites in their own right.
 
That's not what I'm saying at all. But classic use of dismissive language instead of addressing what I said. I am pointing out the cross inconsistencies, that's all. I'm pointing out that some game journalists are circling the wagons around their little group. Note how sites like IGN and Gamespot and EDGE and Eurogamer really don't have much of anything to say about all this. It's not a conspiracy. It's not a plot to do something evil.

But is it a cover-up performed by those in control of the information flow? I'd say that more than one or two things are being covered up and are not being addressed with honesty and integrity. I don't view that as an industry-wide conspiracy. I view that as journalists who lack integrity continuing to lack integrity. From the initial reaction to the knee-jerk reponse to the marginalizing of ANY dissenting voice to the shutting-down of discussion to the painting of 'gamers' with dismissive and offensive strokes....yeah, I'd say that journalists still have a lot to answer for. That doesn't mean I advocate for exposing someone's personal life (even in cases of "conflict of interest" I believe some discretion should be followed) but at the same time I don't think it's all a non-issue.

I don't think it's a "conspiracy". I think that when a group of people get caught in a lie they tend to continue lying. If that group of people is in a place of authority (or a place where they can control information flow or public opinion) then history tells me they'll try to cover it up first. This is how scandals get started in the first place.

The titles were more than just "gamers are dead. hyuk hyuk. ironic hyperbole".

Other article titles were:
Why Are Gamers So Angry
A Guide to Ending “Gamers”
’Gamers’ don’t have to be your audience. ‘Gamers’ are over.
The End of Gamers
The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them

That sounds pretty negative and not just in a sarcastic way.

I'll repeat: the simultaneous appearance of these articles isn't a "conspiracy" per se. Rather, it's just a reaction of unprofessional writers who have perhaps been caught in a lie and they are lashing out against their accusers with polemic aimed at discrediting their accusers.
Don't bullshit me. You just wrote this.
I find it odd how this thread - dating back to 2012 - is brought up in the overall discussion but people are actually DEFENDING the same industry that they spend 200+ threads lambasting over the past 2 years. Kinda like how many on NeoGaf said that Phil Fish "got what he deserved for being a prick" in the Marcus Beer incident, yet they rallied around him during his most recent public appearance. It reeks of an agenda.
What is the agenda of "many on NeoGaf"?
 
not "maybe" it's even in the reddit post http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ejs7v/gaming_journalists_patricia_hernandez_of_kotaku/ "ohh hey wanna stay over? sure! yay" while publicly in her tweets saying that she slept over at these devs houses all the while making articles like this promoting her games and even having a freaking link to play the game down in the bottom.

The fact that you didn't have to do any sort of digging into private messages etc. and instead got all of that from a publically viewable Twitter feed goes against any notion of their friendship being 'secret' or 'hidden'. Should it have been disclosed at the time in the article? Yes. However, is there any sort of evidence that their friendship has actively caused Patricia to write "This is good!" about an objectively bad piece of work? Why is it unfathomable to think that you can be friends with someone and evaluate their work without pandering to them?
 
Nope not about Zoe, it's about the people she slept with and how cozy devs are with press Kotaku even admitted that Nathan Grayson was romantically involved with Zoe which shows this crap they're getting away with. Which lead to other "journalists" protecting them viciously while also being hyprocrites in their own right.

So you've just said it's basically about her having sex. Don't bring up the Grayson thing now when he didn't write anything of significance about Zoe Quinn prior to or since them apparently being involved (none of our business btw).
 
It's kinda hilarious that the first games journalism scandal that has actually got policies to move since Doritogate was borne out of what has turned out to be more-or-less a red herring.

Ultimately, though, I take the position that "journalism" is a platonic ideal that has never really existed outside of some isolated incidents. In video games media, especially, there's never been such a thing as "ethics" or "integrity". Games media has been (metaphorically) in bed with developers and publishers for as long as I can remember.

The big problem is that games media is having their lunch eaten on both main divisions. On the news front, they are being replaced by official blogs, YouTubes and streams. I would not be surprised at all if Xbox Wire and PlayStation Blog are getting more clicks than most games media websites. On the reviews front, YouTube and to a lesser extent Twitch are eating their lunch. Certainly, in the absence of demos, I think that 20 minute plus videos of which the vast majority are gameplay would be better indicator of whether you would like X game than a thousand word review. This is also known as the Giant Bomb model, and I recall reading that they are now regularly getting more views than GameSpot, hence GameSpot cutting down on its writers and focusing on its video output.

Which makes the games writers' approach to their audience baffling. Gamers are the only people who care about games media. To tar them all as misogynistic neckbeards who live in their mother's basements does not make you endearing. (It also doesn't make the misogynists disappear.) Ultimately, contempt breeds contempt. All the writers crying over how "gamers are dead" are doing is driving their audience away to places which doesn't show disdain for their viewership (which, again, would be official blogs and YouTube).

Of course, this doesn't mean that official blogs and YouTube are perfect (I expect most games writers would be working on some story about underhanded advertising and undisclosed payments with YouTubers), but I honestly prefer them over Kotaku, IGN, Gamespot, Polygon et al. At least with official blogs, you know the writer is trying to sell you stuff. :v

[Also, this thread is heading for a lock. Frankly, it should have been archived last year, but I think the mods have made their position clear on the Zoe Quinn shitstorm and its aftershits]
 
Nope not about Zoe, it's about the people she slept with and how cozy devs are with press Kotaku even admitted that Nathan Grayson was romantically involved with Zoe which shows this crap they're getting away with. Which lead to other "journalists" protecting them viciously while also being hyprocrites in their own right.

And again, fail to mention that the relationship between Grayson and Quinn happened after any mention of Depression Quest had occurred in anything written by Grayson.

Grayson got away with nothing, because he did nothing.
 
This comedy of horrors is so hilarious that people are now blaming this imagined mentality of censorship for a host being shitty and flaky?

That Zoe Quinn and her evil minions have infiltrated not only games journalism itself, but also control domain providers. I hear they've managed to assimilate the mole people, so watch out for earthquakes.

Imagined mentality, are you kidding me? GamerNosh already went done a week ago after writing unfavourably on Zoe Quinn.
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Why would TechRaptor lie about being targeted next when one website has already gone down? They have no reason to lie.
 
Don't bullshit me. You just wrote this.

What is the agenda of "many on NeoGaf"?
"many on NeoGaf" decried Phil Fish and did not stand up for him during the Marcus Beer incident and the subsequent Twitter attack. Do you not recall the numerous threads about it?

It really quite shocked me how lots of people (in general, even, not just on NeoGAF) rallied around him (and his own use of twitter attacks) during the Zoe Quinn incident, based on how the internet at large treated him the first time (and many times before that). I'm just pointing out that in the real world, it's bad form to pick and choose which statements made by the same person you're going to rally behind. The term "integrity" applies to people who take the whole person and their past - not just each individual comment they make - to judge whether or not they're a person worth listening to or rallying behind.
 
The fact that you didn't have to do any sort of digging into private messages etc. and instead got all of that from a publically viewable Twitter feed goes against any notion of their friendship being 'secret' or 'hidden'. Should it have been disclosed at the time in the article? Yes. However, is there any sort of evidence that their friendship has actively caused Patricia to write "This is good!" about an objectively bad piece of work? Why is it unfathomable to think that you can be friends with someone and evaluate their work without pandering to them?

Because being chummy with devs like she has publicly shown, shows that her opinion on the article is mostly invalid. The worse part is that they didn't disclose it all, and that Stephen totilo didn't even try to make her do so. All while giving positive press and even linking the game to play//buy in the article.

Why is it that people are so against these "journalists" being less chummy with devs and crap, yet we can all be in arms about "journalists" getting free crap from AAA. They're both conflicts of interest. Overall if she and kotaku really wanted to give press at all to her friends games they could of easily avoided the conflict by just getting another writer no affiliated with them to write the article, but they didn't.
 
Imagined mentality, are you kidding me? GamerNosh already went done a week ago after writing unfavourably on Zoe Quinn.
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Why would TechRaptor lie about being targeted next when one website has already gone down? They have no reason to lie.

Because there's an insane, frothing demand for ANYTHING to fuel the conspiracy fire?

At this point you can clearly state that basically anything barring acts of god has a Quinn bias against you and the conspiracy freaks will have your back.

"many on NeoGaf" decried Phil Fish and did not stand up for him during the Marcus Beer incident and the subsequent Twitter attack. Do you not recall the numerous threads about it?

It really quite shocked me how lots of people (in general, even, not just on NeoGAF) rallied around him (and his own use of twitter attacks) during the Zoe Quinn incident, based on how the internet at large treated him the first time (and many times before that). I'm just pointing out that in the real world, it's bad form to pick and choose which statements made by the same person you're going to rally behind. The term "integrity" applies to people who take the whole person and their past - not just each individual comment they make - to judge whether or not they're a person worth listening to or rallying behind.

It's almost as if people changed their mind. Like normal, rational people do every day.
 
The fact that you didn't have to do any sort of digging into private messages etc. and instead got all of that from a publically viewable Twitter feed goes against any notion of their friendship being 'secret' or 'hidden'. Should it have been disclosed at the time in the article? Yes. However, is there any sort of evidence that their friendship has actively caused Patricia to write "This is good!" about an objectively bad piece of work? Why is it unfathomable to think that you can be friends with someone and evaluate their work without pandering to them?
You don't really "get" journalistic integrity, do you?

It's the notion of being above all reproach so that the validity of your story - and the integrity of your news firm - is not called into question. Back during a time when people got their news - not their political opinions - from the newspaper and TV, it was kind of an important thing to establish, this ol' "integrity" thingamajig.
 
Wait is this stuff for real? If even half the stuff is true then its no wonder
people wont be quite lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE

yes it's all true and how close these people are is all true it's all publicly available yet nobody calls them out on the bullcrap. When people in positions of power in the indie scene are giving each other awards and such to promote each other when they're all close buddies makes those awards go under scrutiny.
 
The fact that you didn't have to do any sort of digging into private messages etc. and instead got all of that from a publically viewable Twitter feed goes against any notion of their friendship being 'secret' or 'hidden'. Should it have been disclosed at the time in the article? Yes. However, is there any sort of evidence that their friendship has actively caused Patricia to write "This is good!" about an objectively bad piece of work? Why is it unfathomable to think that you can be friends with someone and evaluate their work without pandering to them?

In general it's just considered unethical in a journalistic profession, and commonly a journalist has to reveal it's conflict of interest to his or her manager. It's a rule that a lot of professionals abide by.

For example, this is an excerpt from the NYU Journalism Handbook for Students. You can find a similar, shortened rule in the Reuters handbook of journalism

--Writing about friends and family members: Most newspapers bar reporters
from writing about, or including quotes from friends or family members, although
there may be some exceptions, if the reporter is open about it. In an
autobiography or memoir, obviously it is fine. Even here, however, there is an14
obligation: the writer should be transparent and stipulate the relationship,
whatever form that may take. When a reporter is sent out to sample opinion or
find an expert, those sources should not be relations, unless the journalist can
honestly claim the relationship won’t sway what he writes one way or the other.
In other words, would the reporter pull punches because he's a friend of the
source? That's why it is usually a good idea to stay clear of using friends and
relatives in articles in most instances.
 
Imagined mentality, are you kidding me? GamerNosh already went done a week ago after writing unfavourably on Zoe Quinn.
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Why would TechRaptor lie about being targeted next when one website has already gone down? They have no reason to lie.

Because anyone that knows how reddit is run, knows that only admins can ban accounts from the entire site.


And they have only done so because of constant rule breaking of the sites few overriding rules. Two of them being doxxing (because of the boston bomber business) and vote manipulation.

There are infinately worse things still on reddit that are not banned or even has subreddits dedicated to them.
 
Because there's an insane, frothing demand for ANYTHING to fuel the conspiracy fire?

At this point you can clearly state that basically anything barring acts of god has a Quinn bias against you and the conspiracy freaks will have your back.



It's almost as if people changed their mind. Like normal, rational people do every day.

it's not about Zoe quinn it's about the fact that this whole Scandal calls into question the "journalists" involved, which many of these people even publicly addressed. How is it so hard to see that these people don't want their integrity questioned because then they would actually have to do work and avoid articles like http://kotaku.com/a-different-way-to-respond-to-a-rape-accusation-update-1605542083
 
"many on NeoGaf" decried Phil Fish and did not stand up for him during the Marcus Beer incident and the subsequent Twitter attack. Do you not recall the numerous threads about it?

It really quite shocked me how lots of people (in general, even, not just on NeoGAF) rallied around him (and his own use of twitter attacks) during the Zoe Quinn incident, based on how the internet at large treated him the first time (and many times before that). I'm just pointing out that in the real world, it's bad form to pick and choose which statements made by the same person you're going to rally behind. The term "integrity" applies to people who take the whole person and their past - not just each individual comment they make - to judge whether or not they're a person worth listening to or rallying behind.
Many on GAF stood up for Phil Fish because his company was just doxxed and conspiracy nutjobs were spreading "evidence" (easily proven wrong with even a bit of scrutiny) that he hacked himself to mislead the people on this forum.

I think Phil Fish is an asshole. It's also completely irrelevant to whether I defend him in a thread where some people are seriously convinced he was to blame for getting his private information leaked.
 
I haven't read all the articles in that picture so I can't comment on them individually. I was more saying that lots of articles on the same subject can often just = topical point worthy of discussion (or a trend becoming apparent), rather than something more sinister.

I think people jump to the clickbait argument too readily and that it's not as literal as being paid per click.

What "equality" are we talking about? I'm a tad confused on that one.

Well all of these articles, I'm guessing, are supposedly about equality, diversity, and being more inclusive. I mean, all I'm seeing in the reactions to these articles everyone is talking about is, "working as intended" instead of actually fostering diversity, equality, and inclusiveness. I'm not seeing much of a press dialog to foster equality in most of the articles/stories being defended or attacked, I'm just seeing shallow pieces regurgitating what the original stories are saying. And I'm not seeing any call for the press to change their hiring practices practices or covering of said industry, so all I see is pot string with no real interest of changing the status quo. Which, again, says to me click bait.

Like someone else said in here, how many clicks did the leigh post get? I'm seeing click opportunity with a small fraction of the games media and them string the pot and jumping to the controversial swing of blaming the consumer(which always causes problems). Remember, the message pretty much(from the press) has been the issue is the consumer(a certain consumer, but the consumer none the less). The message even has consumers blaming other consumers for the "culture" of the industry(working as intended for more potential clicks, I say), all the while(for the most part of the conversations I'm seeing) ignoring everyone actually in-charge of content(developers/publishers) and message(media).

Almost all of these articles and stories are reactionary to twitter and blogesphere events, and then someone saying something edgy and everyone else doing me too journalism. I dont see why these articles need defending, when they are literally not serving the supposed intended service, that they were supposed to. So essentially the media is supposedly pissed about a message they perpetuated with help from the publishers and then blaming the consumer. I dunno, all I can get from all this is click bait.
 
Because anyone that knows how reddit is run, knows that only admins can ban accounts from the entire site.


And they have only done so because of constant rule breaking of the sites few overriding rules. Two of them being doxxing (because of the boston bomber business) and vote manipulation.

There are infinately worse things still on reddit that are not banned or even has subreddits dedicated to them.

I never go to Reddit and I don't know much about it. But am I to understand then that the only possibility is that they deleted these Reddit...threads or whatever you call them, themselves since a ban is nearly impossible?
 
it's not about Zoe quinn it's about the fact that this whole Scandal calls into question the "journalists" involved, which many of these people even publicly addressed. How is it so hard to see that these people don't want their integrity questioned because then they would actually have to do work and avoid articles like http://kotaku.com/a-different-way-to-respond-to-a-rape-accusation-update-1605542083

Except that it wasn't a scandal. So anybody - journalists included - defending the journalists in question happen to be right.

So it's not a defense against integrity in general, it's against this "scandal" bullshit.

Congrats internet, you've earned the JOSEPH MCCARTHY award for tenaciously tying together faulty evidence in your hatred of something entirely nebulous and easy to modify.
 
Nope not about Zoe, it's about the people she slept with and how cozy devs are with press Kotaku even admitted that Nathan Grayson was romantically involved with Zoe which shows this crap they're getting away with. Which lead to other "journalists" protecting them viciously while also being hyprocrites in their own right.

Last I heard that was conjecture. Is there proof that she slept with members of the gaming press?
 
Because anyone that knows how reddit is run, knows that only admins can ban accounts from the entire site.


And they have only done so because of constant rule breaking of the sites few overriding rules. Two of them being doxxing (because of the boston bomber business) and vote manipulation.

There are infinately worse things still on reddit that are not banned or even has subreddits dedicated to them.

There's actually a new clause which says that only 30% of your submissions can be self-promotion. More than that and you risk getting your account banned for spamming. It's a dumb rule that's probably dampened the activity of official accounts (which on reflection was probably the intention) that I would imagine the TechRaptor just fell foul of.

Oh, and the wiping of the Zoe Quinn threads last week? The anti-witchhunting rules they put in place after the Boston bombing in action.

Occam's razor, y'all.

Last I heard that was conjecture. Is there proof that she slept with members of the gaming press?

The one game writer mentioned admitted it to his editor, who disclosed it. So, yeah, confirmed. The red herring is the suggestion that she got any benefit from it.
 
For starters, the relationships between writers and game developers is what it is. Sometimes there is one, sometimes their isn't - with the surge of independent game development is it really a surprise that these developers also tend to stem from or be connected to those that passionately cover the video game industry mostly because they enjoy the medium itself, rather than because they want a phat paycheck?

The wrong doing is the lack of disclosure, something some sites are actively trying to do something about. That being said, it's not inherently true at every site on the internet either. A lot of focus is put into the mistakes by the handful of "huge" video game websites, but ignore the fact that - when it comes to a majority of the coverage, there is nothing inherently wrong with it the way #GamerGate puts it. Do some journalists get sick of gamers? Of course - there is a minority of gamers, a sect of them, that really want to do nothing but degrade and attack anyone who writes something they don't agree with. I run a relatively small cookie website in comparison to say, Kotaku. At my site (Zelda Informer, for those curious), I can write an opinion piece that some of the fan base doesn't agree with. In return, I will be attacked and belittled over it. This is not the case for EVERY comment or tweet, but they are the loudest of them - making their voice be damn sure it is heard.

On the surface, I have a responsibility to understand the nature of any fanbase. We only have 300k or so fans on FB, with a net reach of say, 1.5 million viewers a month. We're relatively small time, and it's a lot easier for me to never take to heart any of the attacking remarks. I am sure working at a much bigger place, it is a lot harder to just ignore the attacks. Especially since they do sometimes get to be a lot bigger threats than I get. I've had threats against the life of me and my family, but no one has gone on to post my address to my face and send me pictures of my home from Google Maps, proving they know where my family and I are and can find us. They could if they wanted, but I know in general they are empty threats that can easily be made over the internet due to being anonymous. In general, most people wouldn't, to my face, say they would kill me and my family because they disagree with me.

Going deeper than the surface, this constant belittling of something we do, basically, out of passion... can lead to us being cynical. I am not afraid to admit I have told other staff members that our fans are acting like idiots - reality is that remark really only applied to a dozen of the commentors and not the other 200 or so of them, but it can get really frustrating, especially since we don't believe in any sort of auditing in our audience. Our fans can speak out as freely as they want.

I have no problems with people like Geoff Keighley. He openly admits that he is sponsored. He's transparent about it. Sometimes he does ask tough questions, other times he doesn't, and it's all too blatantly obvious when he doesn't (due to a sponsorship). Geoff was a big reason this thread started, but reality is that the problems with Game Journalism are less about "the handful of corrupt connections between writers and developers" and more about the integrity of the medium on the whole. I'm talking Journalism in general, not just game Journalism.

There is a sever lack of researching in our medium, and sites and writers jump all over the current hot story because they have a gut reaction to it (like all fans do) and they obviously know their fan base will be interested in the story. It's more about the story and how it makes us feel, less about trying to report actual facts. There is nothing wrong with rumor mongering in my mind, as long as it is labled as such. Posting something as a definitive fact without the concrete evidence to back it up is a big problem with Journalism. You can watch ANY news channel and see this happen every day, read any video game or other news outlet and see it too. Tons of "news", most of it with very little facts to back it up.

The problem is, specific to us, is that since game journalists really work out of passion more so than most journalists is that we're gamers like everyone else, we have gut reactions like everyone else, and we share those gut reactions in our work. We don't go the extra mile to prove or disprove a report, and we don't even do the bare minimum - where we can mention a current story but full diclose that we don't know the whole story, or we have a lack of sufficient evidence to prove it. It's fine to talk about stuff (we do it on GAF every day), but to report it means we must be willing to admit, within the text (and even the title when possible), that we don't have enough facts. Let the readers decided for themselves (like the Quin situation). We still don't have all the facts and we probably never will.

I also feel, slowly, there is this attitude growing that gamers (or whatever we call ourselves) just WANT gaming journalism to be more corrupt than it really is. Rarely are teh complaints about shoddy grammar, but shoddy reporting, yet we seem to take the stance of a cherry picking 20 or 30 stories and ignoring the fact that in between, there were hundreds if not thousands of stories that were just fine. This doesn't excuse the bad ones, but it puts the complaints in context - is journalism really any worse than it's ever been, or are we just wanting it to be worse than it is to justify a biased and jaded view people carry due to select number of incidents?
 
And again, fail to mention that the relationship between Grayson and Quinn happened after any mention of Depression Quest had occurred in anything written by Grayson.

Grayson got away with nothing, because he did nothing.


We dont know anything about any of this, all we know is a bloggers side of the story, twitter messages, and what Kotaku said(and them saying anything other then "hey we didnt do anything wrong" would have been stupid on their part for PR reasons). Trying to infer what actually went on there is a fruitless battle, because nobody knows much of anything. If we are talking about what we KNOW went on, I'm not sure how you can say you know Grayson(or anyone else involved) didnt do anything wrong. There would be no vested interest in any of the party members to tell the truth(including an angry blogger). The whole thing is a mess and wouldn't have happened in the 1st place if the game press wasn't run the way it is.
 
No it does not. Not. Without. Proof.

You can be dubious, but you cannot stand there and say it is unequivocally true.

.....ya know what you're right let's completely ignore the fact that she and many other "journalists" have broken these rules just because ya know the perceived message isn't completely true. I mean it's not like integrity matters at all to these people when they openly slander every damn person in the industry never fully apologizing and never actually pointing out fallacies in peoples arguments. I mean I guess the comment section of each Kotaku is the bastion of perfect and balanced discussion.
 
There's actually a new clause which says that only 30% of your submissions can be self-promotion. More than that and you risk getting your account banned for spamming. It's a dumb rule that's probably dampened the activity of official accounts (which on reflection was probably the intention) that I would imagine the TechRaptor just fell foul of.

Oh, and the wiping of the Zoe Quinn threads last week? The anti-witchhunting rules they put in place after the Boston bombing in action.

Occam's razor, y'all.

You only get shadowbanned, you can still post, but no one can see your threads until someone signs them off.

Actual full, 'your account is gone' banned is done very strictlyz
 
We dont know anything about any of this, all we know is a bloggers side of the story, twitter messages, and what Kotaku said(and them saying anything other then "hey we didnt do anything wrong" would have been stupid on their part for PR reasons). Trying to infer what actually went on there is a fruitless battle, because nobody knows much of anything. If we are talking about what we KNOW went on, I'm not sure how you can say you know Grayson(or anyone else involved) didnt do anything wrong. There would be no vested interest in any of the party members to tell the truth(including an angry blogger). The whole thing is a mess and wouldn't have happened in the 1st place if the game press wasn't run the way it is.

What? (Sorry for skipping your other reply, I think we fundamentally disagree on clickbait). We don't know what went on, so how can you know he didn't do anything wrong? This is such a muddled point.

Considering that the original complaint that he'd reviewed her game favorably in return for the wild thing was proven false, there is no reason not to trust what he says. There is no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing. Unless you count him linking her game in an article.
 
You only get shadowbanned, you can still post, but no one can see your threads until someone signs them off.

Actual full, 'your account is gone' banned is done very strictlyz

I'll argue that getting shadowbanned is worse because it's harder to notice that you've been banned, but point taken.
 
We dont know anything about any of this, all we know is a bloggers side of the story, twitter messages, and what Kotaku said(and them saying anything other then "hey we didnt do anything wrong" would have been stupid on their part for PR reasons).

We do know, because the article is there and dated and has not been deleted in an attempt to cover up anything.

Not to mention that all that was written about Depression Quest was that Nathan Grayson mentioned Depression Quest in a list in a Greenlight article. Mentioned it. No endorsement or favourable placement. That's it.
 
It is a red herring at this point if that person had sex with games writers.
The real issues are the writers trying to white wash corruption in the industry (if you do not believe that their is any, you are clearly blind to even the thread you are in), writers thinking they are better than gamers and thus attacking them, the attacks against anyone that tries to be level headed and tells people to stop generalizing, people threatening each other, and the people that toss blind support behind that that person bar some really questionable actions (not talking about the sex).
 
The one game writer mentioned admitted it to his editor, who disclosed it. So, yeah, confirmed. The red herring is the suggestion that she got any benefit from it.

The quote said "people", not "person", which seems like libel. And why would there be a problem with someone being romantic with someone else in the industry if there is no benefit?

http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346 in the article "nathan and zoe were in a romantic relationship" so yes she has slept with members of the gaming press. This then calls into question other "journalists".
Which other members do you have proof that she slept with?
 
What? (Sorry for skipping your other reply, I think we fundamentally disagree on clickbait). We don't know what went on, so how can you know he didn't do anything wrong? This is such a muddled point.

Considering that the original complaint that he'd reviewed her game favorably in return for the wild thing was proven false, there is no reason not to trust what he says. There is no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing. Unless you count him linking her game in an article.

I was talking about all of it. Not just Grayson.
 
The quote said "people", not "person", which seems like libel. And why would there be a problem with someone being romantic with someone else in the industry if there is no benefit?


Which other members do you have proof that she slept with?

There's nothing wrong about being in a relationship with someone else. That's no problem at all. But if you're a journo, you should abstain for writing any piece for someone you're involved with personally. Doesn't matter how much involved, friend or family or lover, but it's generally something you just don't do, unless revealed firsthand either to readers, or simply to your higher-up. With that said, Grayson's infraction was pretty minor in comparison. Hernandez's pieces though wasn't really. She did add a clarification later...a year and a half later which isn't much really

Anyway, I think I shall go to bed, I've had some good exchange. Stay civil people, I feel like it's getting a bit heated here.

If anything, I personally think there's already been something positive going on and I'll keep participating sometimes. This whole journalistic integrity might sound silly for some but I think, if done properly, it would impact everyone positively in the end. Cheers people, stay nice
 
.....ya know what you're right let's completely ignore the fact that she and many other "journalists" have broken these rules just because ya know the perceived message isn't completely true. I mean it's not like integrity matters at all to these people when they openly slander every damn person in the industry never fully apologizing and never actually pointing out fallacies in peoples arguments. I mean I guess the comment section of each Kotaku is the bastion of perfect and balanced discussion.

...and GamerGate people say it's the journalists who have an agenda. You could have a completely valid set of points to make Dugna, but trust me, from a completely objective viewpoint, you're ranting and sounding like the sort of person you're trying to campaign that you're not.

I'm off to bed.
 
You don't really "get" journalistic integrity, do you?

It's the notion of being above all reproach so that the validity of your story - and the integrity of your news firm - is not called into question. Back during a time when people got their news - not their political opinions - from the newspaper and TV, it was kind of an important thing to establish, this ol' "integrity" thingamajig.

We're talking about, at the end of the day, a branch of writing that revolves around basically forwarding facts from a publisher/developer to the consumer and communicating opinions. Stories that involve "detective work" are rare in the industry because the industry by and large is about interpretation of artistic qualities and other personal gobbledegook. What facts are there to doubt when it comes to video games? None that readers can't go verify.

If there's anything that is called into question, it's how seriously people take game writing. If a game writer goes knee-deep into something with a lot of investigative facts, okay, check their credentials. By and large the industry is very good at this when the gravitas is on the table. But the rest of the time, there's nothing of note.
 
We're talking about, at the end of the day, a branch of writing that revolves around basically forwarding facts from a publisher/developer to the consumer and communicating opinions. Stories that involve "detective work" are rare in the industry because the industry by and large is about interpretation of artistic qualities and other personal gobbledegook. What facts are there to doubt when it comes to video games? None that readers can't go verify.

If there's anything that is called into question, it's how seriously people take game writing. If a game writer goes knee-deep into something with a lot of investigative facts, okay, check their credentials. By and large the industry is very good at this when the gravitas is on the table. But the rest of the time, there's nothing of note.

So if these writers are just people who forward information and that's there only job, then why do articles like http://kotaku.com/a-different-way-to-respond-to-a-rape-accusation-update-1605542083 exist, I mean from what everbody says about Zoe Quinn and that her personal life shouldn't delved into. Then why do they time and time again delve into peoples personal lives that have NOTHING to do with gaming? If they can delve into other people's personal lives and tarnish them then people can do the same thing to them. They never publicly apologize to these people ever it seems so why should we apologize about digging into them?
 
So if these writers are just people who forward information and that's there only job, then why do articles like http://kotaku.com/a-different-way-to-respond-to-a-rape-accusation-update-1605542083 exist, I mean from what everbody says about Zoe Quinn and that her personal life shouldn't delved into. Then why do they time and time again delve into peoples personal lives that have NOTHING to do with gaming?

Yeah that is what really bothers me. Why do they write articles on allegations here, but not with Quinn? I don't really care about who she had sex with, because I don't think there is enough evidence to back up that she slept with someone for press coverage (and there was never an allegation made of this to begin with. People just saw the information, and extracted the possibility of an ethical breach). But what about the allegations Wozniak made about her sexually harassing him? And then Phil Fish shouting the guy down, and bullying him to shut up. And other Devs and journalists supporting these actions? What about the allegation that Quinn tried to make someone believe they had a mental illness (so she was abusing mental illness), and yet is an activist for mental illness? Surely, these allegations should be weighed on when considering her credibility as an activist?

Especially if we are going to report on the allegations of other people that aren't even related to the industry or their job. At least with Quinn's case, you could argue that some of her actions have an impact on the industry (Wozniak is a member of this industry, that possibly was sexually abused, but was bullied into shutting up for fear of losing his job in the industry. Quinn's credibility as an activist/voice for what she pushes etc. At least that is more relevant to the industry then that article on the Cards vs. Humanity guy. I seriously want to know what Jason Schreier thinks about this, and why it's okay for Kotaku to cover one and not the other. And if his answer is that, well they are just allegations made by an ex boyfriend. So, and the allegations made by the girl against the guy who made Cards Vs Humanity isn't any different? They are still X person making Y allegation. And you are reporting on it.
 
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