Exactly don't persecute others with no facts then never ever apologize again and again. Then expect people to care any or at all about your personal feelings.
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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Exactly don't persecute others with no facts then never ever apologize again and again. Then expect people to care any or at all about your personal feelings.
Man who invented rude card game vs Indie dev rockstar woman. Not a shocker that the press wants one dead and one exalted.
Sure, I get the reason WHY. I just think they should be called out on their BS. I edited my post to add a bit more. But honestly, the Quinn allegations actually had some impact on the industry, whereas the Cards vs. Humanity allegations had NOTHING to do with the industry. These sites want to be taken seriously, and act like there isn't an extreme bias....
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
That article you linked was a pretty basic opinion piece. I don't see what the big deal is.
Integrity only comes into play when your readers may doubt your facts. Like I said, some articles do go in-depth and when they do, the industry's pretty good about making sure that their integrity is in check.
I have no idea what you're babbling about.
At this point allegations is codeword for "somebody said it on Reddit or Youtube, it must be true." And considering all the bullshit thrown in the past week, it's a well-earned moniker.
The majority if not all of the hate and vitriol are coming from these people who deem gamers are disgusting and full of hate.
The same thing applies to the Max temkin situation, the only evidence of any of accusation was a facebook post. I mean they trusted this random facebook accusation why not trust a full blog post that has actual screencaps and video evidence. I mean if one is alright then why isn't the other?
How is that any different then a girl saying she was raped by the creator of the Cards Vs Humanity creator? That is an allegation. How is that any less valid then Wozniak opening up on twitter and saying he was sexually abused by Quinn, and then Fish and other devs/journalists shouting the guy down to shut up. You can see that for yourself on Twitter. How is that any different then Zoe's ex bf saying that she tried to convince him he had a mental illness to cover up her affairs?
I really do not see how this is any different then someone saying they were raped by the Cards Vs Humanity creator. To me they are both "allegations" being made. And Kotaku decided to cover one story, and not another. So all I'm saying is, why was one story okay to write about, and not the other? If you don't think that any of these allegations should be taken seriously, that is perfectly fine. I'm not trying to argue they should be. I'm just saying, there is inconsistency to how the press covers these things. And from where I'm standing, I think the allegations made against Quinn (the specific examples I gave, not any of the BS about who she slept with)...is more relevant to the industry then the story written about Cards Vs Humanity's creator. As the accused actions here, actually have an impact on the industry itself. Kotaku covering one but not the other is bizarre.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
That article you just linked wasn't witch hunt, or an attack in any way. I don't even think it brought into question whether the allegation was true. It was just a discussion about the language used in his response.
Again, it's just an opinion piece. On how the issue was presented, not the issue itself. By one writer. Explain to me again why it matters in the realm of integrity?
So why didn't they write an opinion piece about the disturbing behaviors of a Dev/Journalists shouting down someone for making a sexual abuse allegation? Do you really not think that is more relevant here. You basically have someone in the industry that comes forward and makes a claim they were sexually abused by someone else in the industry, then you have people in the industry bullying him to be quiet. And the guy backs down because he's afraid he's going to lose his job. This absolutely should have been written about. That's a toxic environment in the industry that is beyond disturbing. That a potential victim can't come forward, because they fear risking their job. That devs/journalists are willing to shout down a potential victim, because the person being accused is one of their friends...
That people in this industry are willing to bully someone (in the public space no less) to shut up about a serious allegation....I mean hell. And yet no one wrote a damn thing about this.
An Opinion piece about nothing gaming related and yes they did "witch hunt" him with every single damn article against him. So why is this piece dismissed as a opinion piece when this opinion piece of something not even related to video games shouldn't be on a gaming journalistic site.
Hell you want a witch hunt about more personal life crap http://kotaku.com/5940401/pc-gaming-studio-said-she-ruined-their-game-but-only-after-she-sued-the-boss-for-sexual-harassment they go into so much damn coverage into the personal life of all of these people because of accusations *which were then dropped and the woman who accused him and she apologized*. Even better is after the public apology she made the press didn't apologize to him.
There's demand, but there is no need to manufacture evidence. Many journalists' own twitter feeds are indictments of their unethical journalism.
What are you even getting at?
You don't get too decide what is/isn't relevant to Kotaku (or any other site). They're actually known for having a pretty broad definition of what's gaming culture related. Also an article =/= an attack.
You are right, no one gets to decide what opinion pieces get written or not written on. But at the same time, you have two instances of cases where allegations are brought against a figure in the industry. One is talked about, the other isn't (and the other had an actual possible impact on the industry itself).
So at least to me, while it's their choice to write opinion pieces on what they want, I find it strange that they are willing to follow up one story, and not another that is similar.
So it's ok to publicly announce accusations that were further proven false, but the same situation involving Zoe Quinn, or Phil Fish denouncing the guy who came out with sexual harassment accusations against Zoe Quinn is completely and utterly ignored.
BrassDragon
Member
I just can't.
"Pay us, or the Impartiality Kitty gets it."
I can't remember ever paying a dime for the commentary of Roger Ebert or Walt Mossberg yet retained faith in their approach to criticism. But I suppose they didn't have gamers weighing them down.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Phil Fish being nasty to someone on Twitter is an incredible non story in a volcano of absolute garbage in the past two weeks.
The sexual misconduct allegations (a separate story) could possibly be followed up on, but considering the guy's following tweets I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm guessing internal industry politics and drama. Guess what I would run away from if I was a journalist.
Kotaku publishes stuff on movies and board games all the time. To say it's anything more than an opinion article on the language surrounding rape is delusional.
Gsak
Member
Agreed. Shall we also agree that "journalists" can't decide what Journalism is? Because as of late, they really are giving it a very, very "broad definition". If they cannot, then shouldn't call themselves journalists and they shouldn't be seen as such.
Its quite interesting to see female and male gamers calling for more transperacy on twitter while a lot of journalists try to play it down.I just can't.
Patricia Hernandez went so far as to literally say that statistically he's almost certain to be guilty, given nationwide statistics about rape.
It was very bad, and Totilo had to publicly tell her she was wrong, and had to be considered innocent until proven guilty, in the comment section. Then the article was rewritten. It was written as if he was guilty initially.
I remember getting in arguments on this site in that thread because I just said that he should be considered innocent until proven guilty. That was apparently an extremely controversial position.
I was talking about the article on Max Temkin, not making statements on this as a whole. On the double standard you could have a point (I don't know what to think of this if I'm honest), Perhaps take this up with the editors of the websites you're angry about, have you contacted Totilo to complain/ask for an explanation? I can't speak on their behalf.
On why they don't apologise in those articles I'm not sure it's commonplace for outlets to apologise every time the information they report on changes, usually only moreso if they are the source of that information. They're technically not lying when they report "an allegation has been made" and that later is revoked or proven false.
What do you mean?
This double standard is getting freaking irritating. When these people straight up say they're "journalists" they should be held to the code of being a journalist. Stuff like this gets people fired all the damn time in other fields and yet these people are not getting in any trouble what so ever.
"Pay us, or the Impartiality Kitty gets it."
I can't remember ever paying a dime for the commentary of Roger Ebert or Walt Mossberg yet retained faith in their approach to criticism. But I suppose they didn't have gamers weighing them down.
Pretty hilarious, because that's literally what he's saying.
Phil Fish being an asshole is common. But him bullying someone that has a sexual abuse claim against Quinn, and then Quinn + devs + journalists supporting this bullying to get him to be quiet, is different then Fish just being an asshole. It's terrible behavior that should not be tolerated. It's about context. It's essentially a potential victim coming forward with a sexual abuse claim, and then fellow members of the industry bullying him to be quiet or risk taking a hit to his career. Whether the allegations were true or not, they are very serious allegations that should at least not be treated with bullying. And it really bothers me that we see devs/journalists SUPPORTING this bullying, simply because the person being accused was their friend. That to me, is very disturbing and speaks to a larger problem in this industry (the in groups where people protect one another, or the us vs. them mentality).
I do find it bizarre that these allegations against Quinn were not written about by anyone, and yet they will write about allegations made against Cards Vs Humanity's creator. Because at least with Quinn, we have two examples (and again, I'm not talking about her sleeping with anyone, I'm 100% ignoring that, as I don't find it relevant)...where she is alleged to have done very questionable things that HAVE an impact on this industry. If Kotaku wants to cover one and not the other, then fine. But I'm going to question why they will cover one but not the other.
It's just a variation on the old "entitled gamers" meme.
I just can't.
Good luck in the games industry without gamers. Oh, I almost forgot. People who only play Angry Birds and Candy Crush on phones are clearly the desired audience. On that note, I should say good luck getting that crowd to give two shits about your gaming media.
Son of Cervantes
Member
Ugh, Patricia Hernandez is just the worst. I don't understand why Kotaku hasn't fired her. At best, she's problematic. At worst, she's a liability that may well end up getting Gawker Media sued for defamation.
And I was just reading how Hate Plus and Analogue: A Hate Story, which are indie games which Hernandez gave glowing coverage to (and which I was thinking of buying until a few screenshots made me decide against it)...was created by Christine Love, who Hernandez dated. Now, many months after I read that coverage, they've quietly added an update mentioning that Hernandez and Love 'are friends,' in the interest of disclosure.
To me, that alone is a firable offense, and the Max Temkin article was even worse...but Hernandez seems to be made of teflon, nothing sticks to her.
BrassDragon
Member
I referenced influential tech critic Walt Mossberg a few posts back and it made me look up a site with his reviews. There's a big 'ethics' button right at the top of his old homepage next to his bio. It has a personal statement of intent (he didn't just sign off on his publisher's code of conduct but actually wrote his own.)
Is it really that hard for game journalists to follow this man's example? Nothing in that statement is remotely unreasonable.
Is it really that hard for game journalists to follow this man's example? Nothing in that statement is remotely unreasonable.
Thats what im not getting.
When there are no core gamers left that buy more than 5 games a year how does the industry survive?
Gawker has done so much worse that it's not even funny. They are not worried about that, at all. I'm sure they have an aggressive legal team. They've been sued by Apple and more for fairly big things and never seem to back down.
I seriously think the reason they won't fire her is because Kotaku is part of Gawker and Gawker pulls some shady crap all the time with their articles. So I guess they feel invincible.
Wow, that's pretty crazy if true. For all of Totilo's talk that he's concerned about the ethics of his writers...this is pretty crazy. In this case, I think Hernandez had a responsibility to disclose that to her editor. Failing to do so, means she was in a breach of ethics. While I think it was right on them to updated and disclose this to their audience, I really question why she didn't disclose this in the first place.
Microtransactions that's how, because you know people certaintly won't become tired of that crap soon and want everything for free.
EA and friends would probably celebrate but Indie games would get destroyed in such a market.
Because her like most of Gawker media don't care about ethics, only person I've seen to ever care in Kotaku is Jason and that's it.
#GamerGate detractors continue to wrinkle my brain.
This is, of course, not indicative of all those opposed against #GamerGate, but holy shit. This is just one of many hijackers that seem to have no interest in games and are happy to jump on the social justice bandwagon, when this is neither a social nor a justice matter.
She definitely deserves to be fired, but I doubt it will happen.
Code:
[IMG]http://112.imagebam.com/download/Pcb7M5E0BsXa0mgztpIZ6A/34857/348563514/Screen%20Shot%202014-09-01%20at%2000.37.10.png[/IMG]This is, of course, not indicative of all those opposed against #GamerGate, but holy shit. This is just one of many hijackers that seem to have no interest in games and are happy to jump on the social justice bandwagon, when this is neither a social nor a justice matter.
She definitely deserves to be fired, but I doubt it will happen.
Has Jason ever...talked about this? I'm seriously baffled as to why Kotaku would write a piece about the Cards Vs Humanity allegation, but not the Quinn sexual abuse/ mental illness abuse allegation. And then the fact that Hernandez didn't disclose this to her editor when the piece originally went up, and is a clear example of a breach of ethics.
I know he's not the voice for Kotaku. And it's not like he's the owner. But damn. I really respect him, and would be curious to see what he thinks about this.
That makes this whole situation even more hilarious, these "journalists" constantly praise indies and others and promote these indies and they don't realize that what they're doing completely conflicts with what they're saying. Or they truly just don't care what so ever.
It's like I said earlier. Imagine if Stuart Scott from ESPN came out on social media and insulted his very audience by declaring that 'sports fans are dead' merely because he is offended by how some fans behave when their team loses. We see riots in the streets, setting things on fire, tipping over cars, people getting trampled, etc. But do we see sports media claiming that sports fans are social reject heathens that sports would be better off without? LOL, I don't think so. You can't generalize and shit on your entire audience because of what some imbeciles with obvious issues choose to do.
Gsak
Member
After the last 2 weeks, do you really have to ask?
Live Free or Die
Banned
I'm surprised there hasn't been any uproar over GiantBomb's PAX live stream background with Square Space logos all over but, Geoff Knightley gets ripped apart for having Doritos and Mountain Dew in the background during an interview.
I assume Ebert and Mossberg were paid by PBS, the Chicago Sun-Times, The Wall Street Journal, or whoever employed them. And in turn those organizations were funded by the government (in the case of PBS), the readership, and the diverse range of advertisers. They weren't doing it for free.
I think what Wilcox is trying to point out is that games journalists rely on advertising money from games publishers. We could sever that connection and get impartial coverage, but then it wouldn't be free. Journalists have to make a living, and that money has to come from somewhere. And apparently nobody but games publishers want to advertise on gaming news outlets.
I think the message got smothered by his unbearable attitude though. Christ, what an ass. The games media could at least take steps in the right direction.
Completely different situations.
One is a standard non-endemic sponsorship deal (how websites survive). The other was a so-called journalist being paid to promote products while hosting a Halo promotional junket.
If MS/Halo hadn't been involved, I bet it would have never blown up.
Son of Cervantes
Member
Jason also did that clickbait 'fight' with George Kamitani over Dragon's Crown artwork. His nose isn't exactly clean. But he's probably staying out of it because it's not his place to comment on the behavior of other Kotaku employees. That's definitely Totilo's purview.
And mostly gamers buy games and give their stories the most traffic. Yet we are the enemy as a whole because of what some ass clowns choose to do. You can find toxic trolls in any community. Since when did such people become exclusive to gaming circles?
This isn't really a 1 to 1 comparison though.
Sports fans aren't. Swatting football games. Blaring porn on boomboxes when cheerleaders are on the field. Sports casters generally don't casually use offensive terms on air or in public and not get social backlash.
Sports is a demographic that is already policing itself in a way that gaming absolutely is not.
There is no sport where you can make a video serious about all the ridiculous shit that happens to women in those sports because that doesn't. When figureheads in sports make racist remarks they're pushed out and ostracized.
When a baseball game, or hockey, or basketball game is on it is literally ONLY about the game.
the term "Gamer" being over has a lot of facets to the reason that would spur people to say such a thing. Many gamers have united under some kind of banner of "we support people who want to be able to denigrate people with no social repercussion". It's been used as a term to draw a line in the sand and gate others who like other "less hardcore" games from being part of the conversation.
I do think that sometimes people take things too personally or seriously. But, i think you'd have to be a special kind of scumbag to try and say that people who want everyone to get along and are mad at people who make others feel bad for their uncontrollable circumstances are equivalent to racists.
The big problem here is that for some reason people started using issues of journalistic integrity to add fuel to a firey war against other social issues within the community.
Live Free or Die
Banned
Oh ok, I was just curious about that when I was watching the stream and didn't see anyone talking about it.
Thanks.
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