So PsychoPass.
Is Mainstream Hatred Of Anime Growing?
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So PsychoPass.
I see anime movies from time to time because of the increased budget and tighter storytelling, otherwise I mostly dont care because of all the filler and padding they throw in to fill 20 minutes of animations. And yeah, maybe its a reflection of my own broken self but I find the anime avatars with little girls problematic, it doesnt help that is mostly accompanied by a "lewd" or whatever the fuck which I and most people interpret as "Im using irony to hide my erection".
Monster and One Piece are my shit tho.
Monster and One Piece are my shit tho.
Dice//
Banned
I used to *love* anime/manga.
But I feel too much of it is samey now or just not interesting enough for me. The good ones feel few and far between, I watch maybe on a year.
And yeah I'm going there: I hate a lot of this moe stuff, the girls being cute for the sake of cute or any plot with "Hiro, an average student that [dot dot dot]".
But I feel too much of it is samey now or just not interesting enough for me. The good ones feel few and far between, I watch maybe on a year.
And yeah I'm going there: I hate a lot of this moe stuff, the girls being cute for the sake of cute or any plot with "Hiro, an average student that [dot dot dot]".
Chairmanchuck
Member
That is definitely true. I mean most of the rom-coms or harem-series are essentially the same.
Watch Mushishi though
I would still love to see some manga getting a proper adaption like I am a Hero or Billy Bat.
Cardboard cutout beta male with a harem in all but name is my favorite trope. I'm so glad its used so much.
man, i used to be into anime when i was a teenager. it was about the same time i was really into rpgs. and then as i got into college i just stopped caring. there was a show called eureka 7 that kind of ticks every single box of yours and pretty much turned me off to it as a whole. i'm slowly starting to watch some stuff again, based solely off the concept that good entertainment should be good entertainment.
if you have never seen it, this is not an anime, but the style is similar and that is what initially put me off. despite a lot of anime leanings, i really recommend avatar: the last airbender. it's an american-made show influenced heavily by all kinds of different asian cultures. they build it into the architecture, they work it into the fighting moves. the music is great, the fight scenes are inventive, and the way it treats the characters is wonderful. everyone is a person, even the psychotic villains, and it gives time to them to develop motivation so that you could at least understand where they're coming from or why they're having such a breakdown or why they're so power-hungry. the two biggest marks against it are that it's basically a martial arts show and it's in a fantasy setting, but if you like good characters i recommend it. it was originally aired on nickelodeon, but it gained a large following from older folks because of the writing and the acting and the attention to detail. i cannot stress enough how much i was surprised by it not being a 'kid's show', despite everything about it indicating it would be generic and y'know, bad.
i'm trying to think back of anime i watched and might fit everything here. they all get pretty weird and creepy, but in an intentional way that's not supposed to be fun for some people.
serial experiments lain:
i watched this when i was a teenager and like you, i really only watched dubs. it's an unsettling show and honestly pretty weird. it's not about real life, but it is set within the real world. i will say that the dub for this happened about 15 years ago and it kinda shows.
paranoia agent:
this show can really push the envelope in making you feel uncomfortable. it's essentially about people in the real world who don't take responsibilities for their actions and the hell they create for themselves. some episodes are basically dark comedy, others are simply dark. it's by the creator of perfect blue, which i see has already been recommended. however while also psychological, this show does extend a bit out of our reality, but only towards the end of the show. for the most part, it's an interesting mystery with many self-contained stories.
ghost in the shell stand alone complex and ghost in the shell stand alone complex 2nd gig
the police procedural descriptor is a really good fit. the theme songs are really really deceptive in that really neither season is about action or fighting. about the worst thing in these shows are the tachikomas, which you can see in the openings of both. they're the giant spidery robots and good god are they annoying. that said they don't really do much so you won't have much face time with them outside of only a couple episodes. both seasons get into the philosophy of the self and identity.
any four of these are the best i can think up. they all don't miss every single checkmark, but i think they're all of a fairly high quality. serial experiments lain is probably the weakest one, and that's based on me not having seen it in ten years.
i also really love princess mononoke. it's straight-up fantasy, but it deals with politics and reality of man vs. nature. strong female characters, no real fighting to speak of outside the opening and the ending (to show the effects of war, really). plus it's a movie, so it's the smallest investment of time and money out of any of these.
The mainstream doesn't knows anime well enough to hate it. It's just the geekdom, so to speak, that has turned its back into it. There's still great anime out there, and I don't believe that there has been an overall drop of quallity. But he quality of the most popular, most visible anime series (the kind of titles that geeks outside the hardcore anime fan community gives a chance to watch them due to their popularity and exposure) has indeed declined. I mean:
Cowboy Beebop, Evangelion, Kenshin VS Naruto, Lucky Star, Bleach
Seriously, this is no contest at all. Hell, even the quality of Ghibli's movies have declined too, and that's yet another major "public image of anime" type of thing.
As for the more general theme of acceptation, I have recently been able to get my girlfriend into anime with the help of Attack on Titan, of all things, a series that she "would watch if it would be a regular live action series". When talking to me about what made her like this series while feeling apathic or downright negative about other ones like Haruhi, she summed it up very well about what it didn't had:
- No romance. Seriously, the way Japanese approaches romance and courtship in general is extremely alien to the western audience, if not downright akward and frustrating. There are antire anime character arcs that could be cut if said character would have the balls to speak out to the love interest in question. If it's not done properly (it rarely is) It looks like forced, artificial drama
-No humour. This is yet another very culturally insular thing. While I love the Japanese sense of absurd, tropes like the whole "drop hanging from the head" or "blood coming out of noses due to pervy sheanigans" are understandably off-putting
- No fanservice. Well, duh.
- And as a positive, Attack on Titan had a high stakes type of story, with good hook up since the first chapter (nevermind that AoT latter bogs down badly). Thing is, people likes series that you don't need to get "past the 5 first episodes" in order to get even remotely interesting. General public doesn't tend to have this type of patience
So yes, I can understand why anime in general doesn't go mainstream outside of a couple of extremely popular series.
Nerd hierarchy at work, right here, folks
Cowboy Beebop, Evangelion, Kenshin VS Naruto, Lucky Star, Bleach
Seriously, this is no contest at all. Hell, even the quality of Ghibli's movies have declined too, and that's yet another major "public image of anime" type of thing.
As for the more general theme of acceptation, I have recently been able to get my girlfriend into anime with the help of Attack on Titan, of all things, a series that she "would watch if it would be a regular live action series". When talking to me about what made her like this series while feeling apathic or downright negative about other ones like Haruhi, she summed it up very well about what it didn't had:
- No romance. Seriously, the way Japanese approaches romance and courtship in general is extremely alien to the western audience, if not downright akward and frustrating. There are antire anime character arcs that could be cut if said character would have the balls to speak out to the love interest in question. If it's not done properly (it rarely is) It looks like forced, artificial drama
-No humour. This is yet another very culturally insular thing. While I love the Japanese sense of absurd, tropes like the whole "drop hanging from the head" or "blood coming out of noses due to pervy sheanigans" are understandably off-putting
- No fanservice. Well, duh.
- And as a positive, Attack on Titan had a high stakes type of story, with good hook up since the first chapter (nevermind that AoT latter bogs down badly). Thing is, people likes series that you don't need to get "past the 5 first episodes" in order to get even remotely interesting. General public doesn't tend to have this type of patience
So yes, I can understand why anime in general doesn't go mainstream outside of a couple of extremely popular series.
Nerd hierarchy at work, right here, folks
Riposte
Member
I don't think One Piece manga has bad pacing. Compared to its peers, it's actually quite good in that regard. People can be a little relentless when it comes to weekly comics.
I think Hunter x Hunter is the better manga, but One Piece is much more lighthearted/sentimental and aimed at comedy, which it does a pretty good job with. What they both have in common, despite being so different in tone, is strong and careful world-building. Unfortunately, I feel like One Piece has dropped in quality since its time skip arc and double downed on some flaws, so the comparison between the two is very easy. Recently, the character Rebecca and what she stands for has really annoyed me; I hope her presence is redeemed.
Putting aside my negative reaction to Stumpokapow's list, I think it is better fulfilled with manga, at least until you get to the legal/localized line, because that's quite a grey area.
I agree, little perversness just seemed to be part of Stumps list, but maybe he meant the not kind of realistic and horrible kind.
Really? Those are your good shows of the past
From where I'm sitting there is no mainstream awareness of anime, let alone any kind of hatred. Never heard anyone in my circle even mention anime, much less discuss it.
It doesn't seem like something that's ever going to go over well in the west though, given that the modern 'face' of anime is usually a 12 year old girl that looks 6 years old yet is actually 1000 years old.
It doesn't seem like something that's ever going to go over well in the west though, given that the modern 'face' of anime is usually a 12 year old girl that looks 6 years old yet is actually 1000 years old.
I don't know if I agree or disagree with this post (I've never seen any kind of 'anime culture' here in England), but man I enjoyed reading it.
Once I got over the wow they do that in cartoons phase when I saw my first anime as a teen, I pretty much lost interest in almost all anime. The storytelling just isn't strong enough and the Anime style emotes and behaviors just wear thin after awhile. It can be downright embarrassing to watch with your girlfriend and wouldn't even try.
I try to tune in once in awhile to see if I could see a cool fight scene or two, but even that hardly works out since many fights are won by shit that doesn't make any sense. It's not even enjoyable to see the hero get the upper hand when it's because of previous unknown ability or plot device #235. Not so say that's the case in all anime of course, but I've seen too many that fall victim to that story telling
I try to tune in once in awhile to see if I could see a cool fight scene or two, but even that hardly works out since many fights are won by shit that doesn't make any sense. It's not even enjoyable to see the hero get the upper hand when it's because of previous unknown ability or plot device #235. Not so say that's the case in all anime of course, but I've seen too many that fall victim to that story telling
Final Spark
Member
Just like any medium you get your good stuff and your bad stuff. I tend to find that the majority of anime is total crap. The few good ones out there, though, are great and maintain my interest in the area.
Let's be honest, anime has never been "mainstream", sure it had a growth in popularity but you are never going to see Attack on Titan on your major TV channels.
Let's be honest, anime has never been "mainstream", sure it had a growth in popularity but you are never going to see Attack on Titan on your major TV channels.
Ping Pong the animation guys
That all I gotta say. Just watch the damn show, its incredible
Quit limitng yourself to shonen then
You guys aparently are confused as to why Shonen anime appeals to kids, and maybe then it's just not for you
But yeah, Ping Pong guys, just watch it. Its beautifully done, incredible music characters and action, and it's only 11 episodes
That all I gotta say. Just watch the damn show, its incredible
Quit limitng yourself to shonen then
You guys aparently are confused as to why Shonen anime appeals to kids, and maybe then it's just not for you
But yeah, Ping Pong guys, just watch it. Its beautifully done, incredible music characters and action, and it's only 11 episodes
If it exists, I don't know about it. That's not to say that there aren't anime with complicated stories written for adults, with believable characters, with long-term pay-offs, with social commentary, with complex themes that aren't explicitly explained to you, and so forth. But I can't think of anything that does it with as much panache as The Wire does, and nothing that achieves The Wire's level of social commentary and incisive sociological analysis.
But then, I think everything on television is shallow compared to The Wire.
I'm one of those people who really likes and respects a few anime series (Puella Magi Madoka Magica is pretty great) but dislikes the medium as a whole. In the past few years I've tried a lot of new shows and generally find them too frustratingly adherent to the "standard" anime visual style, boring tropes (I will basically turn a show off at this point if the first episode is about introducing a new transfer student), and poor pacing (filler in the middle is bad, but so is a pilot that's either cryptic or overexpository).
But here's the reason I cringe whenever my friends suggest a new anime: No Game No Life.
For those who haven't seen it, it's a new series (first season has finished airing) about a brother and sister who are transported to a fantasy universe ruled by "the god of games." In this world, everyone must abide by a set of divine rules, the most important of which is that all conflict must be settled through some kind of game. The protagonists are together the team "____" (blank, no name), gamers who never lose no matter what they're playing.
In many ways the show is excellent. The art is beautiful, the world-building fascinating, the story original and compelling. Each episode revolves around the main characters coming up with a clever and entertaining way to defeat the challenges before them. It may not be high drama, but it's fun, smart fantasy, with a lot of subtle touches, some great metatextual humor, and more heart than you'd expect.
So why does it have to include this shit?
That's from an episode where the female lead continually loses game challenges against the protagonists, who use the loss penalties to take her clothing, force her to act like a dog, and make her their slave. Although the treatment of this character, Steph, is the worst part of the series--she's the butt of the jokes, alternately sexualized, infantalized, and robbed of agency by the main characters--the show also features a cavalcade of strong female opponents who are essentially conquered one by one into joining the male lead's harem. Every couple of episodes they'll go bathing while he tries to watch. About the only saving grace is that he doesn't try to fuck his sister.
The most frustrating thing about anime to me is this propensity that creators have for jamming offensive, male-gazey sexualization into otherwise quality shows. American television just doesn't do this as a rule--even schlock like Dexter doesn't make it a point to shove T&A and misogyny in your face. Where it exists in American TV, it's usually there for a reason (The Sopranos, Game of Thrones) or isolated in self-aware trashy pulp (True Blood). As far as I know, America doesn't really have the equivalent; it would be like if Peggy in Mad Men wore skimpy outfits and had scenes where she ended up comically naked sandwiched right between two scenes subtly exploring Don Draper's character flaws through the lens of changing social mores in the 1960s. Even that's kind of an unfair comparison. No Game No Life is basically Burn Notice with better world-building, but Burn Notice managed to be a light, entertaining problem-solving procedural without having Gabrielle Anwar giggling and sudsing up every week.
I like genre stories and anime is way more open to them than other visual mediums; there are a lot of anime concepts that I think sound compelling or could be great shows. But every time I try one I feel like I'm holding my breath just waiting for this bullshit to rear its stupid head and ruin the story I'm watching.
But here's the reason I cringe whenever my friends suggest a new anime: No Game No Life.
For those who haven't seen it, it's a new series (first season has finished airing) about a brother and sister who are transported to a fantasy universe ruled by "the god of games." In this world, everyone must abide by a set of divine rules, the most important of which is that all conflict must be settled through some kind of game. The protagonists are together the team "____" (blank, no name), gamers who never lose no matter what they're playing.
In many ways the show is excellent. The art is beautiful, the world-building fascinating, the story original and compelling. Each episode revolves around the main characters coming up with a clever and entertaining way to defeat the challenges before them. It may not be high drama, but it's fun, smart fantasy, with a lot of subtle touches, some great metatextual humor, and more heart than you'd expect.
So why does it have to include this shit?
That's from an episode where the female lead continually loses game challenges against the protagonists, who use the loss penalties to take her clothing, force her to act like a dog, and make her their slave. Although the treatment of this character, Steph, is the worst part of the series--she's the butt of the jokes, alternately sexualized, infantalized, and robbed of agency by the main characters--the show also features a cavalcade of strong female opponents who are essentially conquered one by one into joining the male lead's harem. Every couple of episodes they'll go bathing while he tries to watch. About the only saving grace is that he doesn't try to fuck his sister.
The most frustrating thing about anime to me is this propensity that creators have for jamming offensive, male-gazey sexualization into otherwise quality shows. American television just doesn't do this as a rule--even schlock like Dexter doesn't make it a point to shove T&A and misogyny in your face. Where it exists in American TV, it's usually there for a reason (The Sopranos, Game of Thrones) or isolated in self-aware trashy pulp (True Blood). As far as I know, America doesn't really have the equivalent; it would be like if Peggy in Mad Men wore skimpy outfits and had scenes where she ended up comically naked sandwiched right between two scenes subtly exploring Don Draper's character flaws through the lens of changing social mores in the 1960s. Even that's kind of an unfair comparison. No Game No Life is basically Burn Notice with better world-building, but Burn Notice managed to be a light, entertaining problem-solving procedural without having Gabrielle Anwar giggling and sudsing up every week.
I like genre stories and anime is way more open to them than other visual mediums; there are a lot of anime concepts that I think sound compelling or could be great shows. But every time I try one I feel like I'm holding my breath just waiting for this bullshit to rear its stupid head and ruin the story I'm watching.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
You're entitled to your opinion, but GoT definitely doesn't always include it for "a reason". Just because the fanservice isn't comedic, doesn't mean it isn't fanservice, and I think that's the main difference between American shows and anime.
In anime, sexualized content is played for laughs, in American shows it's played straight/"serious" in the form of sex scenes, even though it's just as meaningless at times.
Game of Thrones is not perfect here, but at least some of what the show is talking about is what it means to have a culture that objectifies and degrades women. Regardless, I don't think it compares to the way women are treated in anime. Arya is not sexualized, Catelyn is not sexualized, Brienne is not sexualized--Game of Thrones has issues but it also respects most of its characters in a way that the anime I've seen just doesn't.
Anyway, this is not the hill I want to die on. (As I said, I have problems with the way Game of Thrones treats its women sometimes.) My overall point is that quality (or even light, summer) American television does not as a rule work like this. With anime you have to look very hard to find the stuff that doesn't.
LaserBuddha
Member
Ahahahaha NO.
It's there for sexual gratification, but wrapped in a cloak of humor to save the creators and viewers from mutual embarrassment over why it's really there.
OH SILLY UGUU-CHAN, WILL YOU EVER STOP ACCIDENTALLY PLACING YOUR VAGINA ON MY FACE AND GETTING ALL EMBARRASSED AND TSUNDERE BECAUSE YOU SECRETLY WANT MY TRANSFER STUDENT BONER!? SO HUMOROUS!
That kind of "humor" is for sexually frustrated teens or adults who stopped developing at that point.
/dead
I actually agree with the bolded, though. Anime fans, from my personal experience, are obnoxious as fuck. Like... calm down buddy. You don't need to raise your voice when you talk about your favorite Japanese cartoon. And insert select Japanese words into your sentences.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
When I said for laughs I meant more in terms of a lighter tone than two people simply having a sex scene which I would consider more "serious" than a nip slip or someone seeing someone else naked by accident.
Also, don't mistake me for liking that stuff. It's why I started and dropped Love Hina and pretty much haven't even attempted another echi series. I still do think it's a fundamental cultural difference. Because sex is deemed so "mature" here, sexual content isn't treated as casually as any other slapstick form of comedy
Jex
Member
Tsundere? That sounds like weaboo talk to me, son. Are you some kind of Japanophile??
LaserBuddha
Member
I want to send all American otaku on a free trip to Japan so that they can see that the dialog and characterization of almost every anime does not reflect how real people are, Japanese or otherwise, and watch them deflate as Japanese people avoid them just like they do their own otaku.
Crash Station
Member
So boring? Plenty of stuff.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Femmeworth
Banned
The real joke is people getting defensive when such criticisms are levied without emotionally charged language. Planetes is an important series to me but that doesn't mean I make myself blind to its flaws.
Oh you.
Jex
Member
It's weird that you single component out as the worst element while ignoring all the incest subtext (and occasionally plain old text), not to mention the all the fanservice shots of underage characters.
Also, while I understand your complaints (I've certainly made them myself) about the show they're a little misplaced. You're watching a show designed to pander to otakus and then complaining that it features otaku pandering content. It's a bit like reading erotica and complaining about the naughty bits. That's just the genre of show that you're watching. It's offensive and stupid but it's just part of the fabric of otaku-bait shows. I recommend to steer clear of such properties if you find such content objectionable (and why shouldn't you, it is pretty gross).
Well, this thread has finally been worth it then.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Who said it reflected real people? I don't see anyone saying that
I think Laserbuddha is on a crusade in his own head.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
If anything I've seen popularity GROW.
Crash Station
Member
You know at this point, I'm starting to see more veiled racism about Japan from American otaku than idealized "everyone loves anime!" stuff. Stuff like "they hate us whites because they're the most racist people in the world, but what they make is still cool!"
I'm aware, just not into them. I have quite a few friends who recommend me things, but it's just not for me.
What, only american? Damn patriots. Even with an agenda you're too cheap to send all non-japanese otaku, only the american ones. Are we not good enough for you, to be zealous people?
EU! EU! EU!
Jex
Member
If we're talking raw numbers, convention attendance has been rising steadily year on year. That depends if you consider such a thing as an indication of popularity, of course.
JJDinomite
Banned
People are simply growing up. Anime is created for children, just like regular cartoons. I'll admit I'm still nostalgic of some shows (such as Spongebob, Fairly Odd Parents, etc.), but like many adults, I've given up actively watching them. The same goes for anime. People who grew up on anime have moved on to film and literature for a good plot and character development. Does that mean people hate anime? Not necessarily. It just means people think it's a child's activity, and find it odd when fellow adults still watch it. It's sort of like seeing a 40 year old man eating a Happy Meal.
LaserBuddha
Member
I was kind of commenting on the mention of cultural difference by clarifying that it's more like a difference in creep culture than something which would be normal and intellectually fulfilling to Japanese people in general.
Also, one of my main complaints I've expressed about anime is the lack of realistic characters.
You're wrong, youre so dead wrong.
There are anime for all ages. Look at this shit and tell me that's for children: NSFW. There are of course really mature, ones not only this gore fests, but this should show within seconds that anime is not generally for kids. Anime is for everyone, it depends on the show or movie what age group its target. Saying that, would be the same as "movies are for children".
But most anime people remember weren't made for kids.
Ah I love this one.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
I mean it's grossly exaggerated, but I still meant what I said. It's the same way that kid's shows (shonen) can have cursing and violence that American kids shows could NEVER get away with. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone in Japan curses like a sailor or that they're all desensitized to violence, it just means that there are cultural factors there allow those sorts of things to be accepted
This is a dumb post, and not in a sugarcoated "you're slightly misguided way" but in a, "you don't know what you're talking about at all" sort of way. Seriously, this reeks of ignorance and I can't tell if you're feigning it to rile people up or if you actual belief the nonsense you posted is true. Anime has different audiences like every other fucking entertainment medium out there
Crash Station
Member
You know, this is a refreshing mindset after all the accusations of pedophilia.
You're partially right in that these days, a lot of the commercially viable anime is aimed at children. However, there's also a lot aimed at otaku in their 20s, 30s and up which is why a lot is shown at midnight and later. It's true that the amount aimed at "normal" adults is the minority these days, but it absolutely still exists.
Jex
Member
I would call for a moratorium on people making arguments in this thread that been debunked multiple times but that would require people to actually read the thread. I suggest that it may prove informative to scan a few pages as this, aiming with many other arguments, have been thoroughly debunked.
Questions like these suggest a fundamental misconception in the mind of the asker about what anime actually is in terms of the industry as a whole. It is nothing like, say, the American live action television market. For one, it's far far smaller, a fraction of a fraction of the size. More importantly, though, is how and why anime get made. Many, many shows get made to simply sell something whether it's toys, manga or light novels. It's audience is largely kids, teenagers and 'otaku' (who can be any age). It's creators are underpaid and overworked, sleeping at their desks and eating ramen to stay alive. It's a cheap business designed to move product.
At no point is anyone really incentivised to make something along the lines of, say, The Wire (which would be made in live action anyway, and even then it wouldn't exist because Japanese TV has no interest in such stories) and if anyone ever tried to do something like that they'd just lose a lot of money.
It's kind of like asking why there aren't any American cartoons like The Wire.
Its a combination of simple, easy to follow anime like DBZ no longer airing at a good time on maintream networks, and Anime itself no almost catering and pandering entirely to otaku (since they buy all the DVDs/BDs, figures, collectibles, etc.)
Really, the anime industry has no one to blame but themselves for the current niche status of anime.
Really, the anime industry has no one to blame but themselves for the current niche status of anime.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Ever heard of a little thing called The Simpsons?
Its also kind of asking why are there no other shows like The Wire before or since.
JJDinomite
Banned
Sorry for not reading the entire thread, guys. My post wasn't meant to troll or insult; it's only my insight on the issue. I've actually talked to friends about this in the past, and we came to the same conclusion. However, I'm glad you guys have different opinions. I think I understand what you are saying; not all anime is intended for children.
This is why I tell absolutely no one I watch anime, unless a person who also watches anime asks me if I do, which would be extremely rare to say the least. I don't watch a whole lot anyway, but the internet is my only outlet for me to talk about it, which is a bit depressing. I stayed away from those high school/college clubs and conventions, because I also thought some of those people were kind of obnoxious. Just the way it has to be I guess.
The problem is the only adult targeted animation in western markets are comedies like Archer or Simpsons. No one could make an animated drama like Cowboy Bebop or Welcome to the NHK or Monster.
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