"I Can't Relate" Discussion on this mindset

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So I was with a few friends earlier today and we were dicussing movies. The four of us (myself, my best friend Yoon, and two others). We were initially speaking on the how some movies are so badly written not in story but rather in how the character goes about solving the major issue in the story (the overarching story could still be good but this kills a movie for me). Anyways, we somehow got on the subject of just having more diverse main characters in the American film. At one point one of my friends basically states he "cannot relate" to nonwhite main characters; his argument being when he watches a movie he sees himself as the character on screen and when they're black/asian/female it takes him out of the movie and he's more reluctant to see the movie. Honestly I felt this was a really weak argument he presented, I say this because both myself and Yoon despite not being white have no problem/choice with relating to movie characters. So I don't see why he or anyone else who shares his mindset can't do the same when presented with minority characters.

On that subject I've read views about romance depictions in film making people uncomfortable. I've read people saying that they don't like watching white women hooking up with males of different ethnicities on screen, but they're fairly okay with off screen suggestion. This has always been mindblowing to me as well; I was looking for a thought piece written by some guy giving his reason he doesn't like seeing it. His argument is that he and many men like him unfortunately see women as "property" for lack of a better word (I think he says something about the woman being like the trophy for the main and that seeing a white man "conquer" a minority woman is like an ego boost; while seeing a minority male "conquer" a white woman annoys them and feels like an attack on his manhood).

I personally don't understand that; but on some level many people in Hollywood must think this way themselves, or assume the audience thinks the same way because despite BM/WF making up the largest percent of interracial relationships in the US, they're the least represented in media. While WM/BF are grossly over represented in media. Another issue is that WM/*F romances are always shown on screen, while minority male/white female are rarely shown on screen (random example being in Prometheus. Charlize Theron/Idris Elba's quickie isn't shown on screen in any capacity only insinuated).

Given how Hollywood works (assumption of audience + focus groups) this is a large problem with increasing diversity in films; Hollywood assumes that movie goers won't want to watch a movie in which the main character isn't a white male as it will turn too many people off. Now at one point in the US this definitely might have been the case.

I want a serious discussion on this with as little berating and insulting as you guys can muster (I know I'm asking a lot but GAF pls). For those who also feel this way, can you explain in more detail why you do feel this way? Can anyone give a bit more detail as to why people in America feel this way?

This was horribly written in rush, I kind of just typed without really thinking through what I was trying to convey, sorry; I'll edit it later when I'm not mentally all over the place, in the interim pls understand!
 
YOU WOT M8?
I want a serious discussion on this with as little berating and insulting as you guys can muster (I know I'm asking a lot but GAF pls). For those who also feel this way, can you explain in more detail why you do feel this way? Can anyone give a bit more detail as to why people in America feel this way?
 
Interesting. I've heard of people not being able to relate to minority protagonists but I've very rarely thought about how they felt about minority + white relationships. I should honestly bring this up with more people. I can say that, as of now, I'm not really clear on where the mindset comes from. It's hard to imagine a straight white male would be starved for representation in film or TV so I would have assumed at the very least there'd be some eagerness to change it up every once in a while.
 
iv'e had this same discussion with friends of friends over XBL on late nights when it came to main characters in video games. its really always the same lame argument or reasoning that you talked about in the OP. it's nothing more than selective bias, and slight prejudice. nothing is relatable about most of the white male protags in gaming or cinema, yet for some bizarre reason, being white and being male for many white males is all that they need to feel connected to the story of whatever game or film they're interacting with. i really don't get it to be honest. its a strange form of projection. ive had people tell me they can't play Tomb Raider because Laura Croft is a woman, yet they play a game like Skyrim as a Orc or Dark Elf, it makes no sense.

it's the same thing for when GTA San Andreas was announced. you had GTA III and GTA Vice City, starring a white protage who was in a ridiculous crime story with Micheal bay level tropes and plotlines, none of which for the average gamer is relalatable, but somehow people could "relate" to those games. and then when GTA San Andreas was announced, it suddenly became unrelatable because it starred a black protag with mostly black characters, all the while still having the same plotlines and character tropes as previous GTA games; the only difference was the ethnic makeup of the games characters. it was people just projecting their prejudice and using the "immersion" excuse. CJ and Tommy Vercetti were the same character, just different skin tones with a different ethnic backstory. the fact that people felt relation to one over the other when both characters were equally absurd showed how ridiculous this idea of relating to characters in video games and movies are.

but you are right OP, this is a real excuse that people use in Hollywood. it's why after 23 James Bond films, the studios have still yet to cast a non-white James Bond. Same goes for Marvel and DC when it comes to there superhero films not casting non-white and female lead roles in their films. they know there's a decent number of people who think in this twisted and odd way of finding thins relatabale, and so they hold off on changing the status quo in favor of keeping things "relatable",
 
He sounds nuts, I've never met anyone who projects themselves onto the main character of a film, you know an actual character. I've heard this argument on GamingGAF, where a lot of creators use the main character as a blank slate to project onto, but that still seems just straight up racist to me. Shooting aliens in the face and flying around like you're a spaceship you can relate to, but once you aren't your skintone or gender, it takes you out of it? Just seems racist to me, albeit mild.
 
I could understand several reasons for not liking or relating to a character, but if their gender, sex, or ethnic is an excuse, it makes you sound like a really shallow person, IMO.
 
I couldn't relate to 99% of the shit in guardians of the galaxy and I still loved it.

But yes it's an extremely weak argument, in many cases the white male portrayed in the movie is someone you can't relate to at all, especially in power fantasy movies where the whole point is that you wish you could relate to the person but can't because said person is too awesome and juiced up on hollywood magic.

Unless your friend ONLY watches everyday, typical joe movies where nothing of any real importance happens then maybe he has an argument. But if he can relate to typical white super hero dude who can do martial arts, is calm under any circumstances and the world relies on him to save it then yeah, there's no relating to that bs other than skintone.
 
At one point one of my friends basically states he "cannot relate" to nonwhite main characters; his argument being when he watches a movie he sees himself as the character on screen and when they're black/asian/female it takes him out of the movie and he's more reluctant to see the movie. Honestly I felt this was a really weak argument he presented, I say this because both myself and Yoon despite not being white have no problem/choice with relating to movie characters. So I don't see why he or anyone else who shares his mindset can't do the same when presented with minority characters.

It's not so much that he can't as that he's never needed to. You'd be missing out on a lot more than he is if you couldn't identify with protagonists whose ethnicity is different from yours.
 
I don't understand the mentality myself, but then again I do not try to project myself onto these characters so maybe that's why I don't understand it. While I have never actually seen somebody argue for it myself (although I know it has happened at times, like with San Andreas for example), I have seen quite a lot of people argue the that we need more minorities/women in lead roles specifically so that these groups would have more roles to identify with which is pretty much exactly the same thing just reversed.
 
For myself personally, movies or video games I find it pretty simply to place myself in a character's shoes regardless of ethnicity or gender, hell or even species. Probably because I've grown use to it over the last 27 years of my life.

It just boggles me that I can relate to really any character of any origin, but there are people out there in which such a concept is just unfathomable.
 
Barring the atrocity to logic these people employed about interraciality (like seriously, how do people not understand the advantages to genetic diversity???), I think people lack imagination in general when it comes to art.

Being able to relate to someone who is not entirely like yourself takes a small amount of work, you have to make connections to that person in your own mind without being told to (he aspires for more, he likes similar things that I like, he struggles with things in life like me).

Most people want to be told what to think and feel. They want the music to swell up at the right moment, the laugh track to tell them when to laugh, and the plot to be explained at every detail.
 
What he's saying is very close minded and will limit his enjoyment of many films. Unfortunately I feel like this is the mindset for a lot of the average movie-goers.

The primary function for storytelling is to give context, meaning and organisation to the messy, meaningless lives we lead. I know this thread is generally about ethnicity but there are wider implications than that. We watch films to gather new experiences so that we don't necessarily need to experience those ourselves. We consume stories so we can be on the front lines of WWII or know what it means to have a family, or not have a family, or be extremely poor, or extremely rich, or extremely lonely without actually having to go through it ourselves.

In this way, watching movies just to relate to experiences or situations we've already been through or already exist in is selling storytelling short. It doesn't matter if you can relate to the situation. All that matters is if you can emote to the situation. If you can feel that isolation, love, heartbreak, fear, despair, satisfaction etc then it shouldn't matter if they're black, white, from a foreign country, from another planet, from the 1940s, from Ancient Rome -- it's just a simulated experience designed to make you feel something that you wouldn't normally feel given your normal day to day life.
 
I can kind of see this argument for games since you're actually playing the character and relating to the character sometimes helps people connect with the game. But for movies, it's like you're experiencing someone else's story since you're "completely removed" from the movie in the sense that you have no interaction with the character.
 
For myself personally, movies or video games I find it pretty simply to place myself in a character's shoes regardless of ethnicity or gender, hell or even species. Probably because I've grown use to it over the last 27 years of my life.

It just boggles me that I can relate to really any character of any origin, but there are people out there in which such a concept is just unfathomable.

I sometimes wonder if it isn't that they can't relate, it's that they fear change. They fear it may change the way they have perceived a lot of things in their lives.

I can't fathom that myself, but that doesn't stop me from trying to figure it out.
 
At one point one of my friends basically states he "cannot relate" to nonwhite main characters

I think your friend is either full of shit or has something seriously wrong with his mental empathic functions.

What does he do when he watches a movie with just animals, like The Lion King? Or The Land Before Time? They're nonwhite main characters. Is he really unable to relate to them? Does he feel nothing when Littlefoot's mother dies in The Land Before Time?

I'm sorry, this just sounds ridiculous.
 
I've heard people say "I can't relate" when it comes to games and movies. I don't really understand what that means. Relate to what? And why do you have to relate to it?

I can sympathize with any character in whatever medium if it's written well. Like all the appliances in The Brave Little Toaster.
 
I think your friend is either full of shit or has something seriously wrong with his mental empathic functions.

What does he do when he watches a movie with just animals, like The Lion King? Or The Land Before Time? They're nonwhite main characters. Is he really unable to relate to them? Does he feel nothing when Littlefoot's mother dies in The Land Before Time?

I'm sorry, this just sounds ridiculous.

White voice actors for the main characters lol, idk
 
I think your friend is either full of shit or has something seriously wrong with his mental empathic functions.

What does he do when he watches a movie with just animals, like The Lion King? Or The Land Before Time? They're nonwhite main characters. Is he really unable to relate to them? Does he feel nothing when Littlefoot's mother dies in The Land Before Time?

I'm sorry, this just sounds ridiculous.

In my time living, I've come to the realization that empathy isn't as common as one would think and that many people lack it.
 
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That they do
 
The problem, I think, is there isn't enough content out there with great minority characters that are widely available. We'll have the occasional show but they're generally type cast into their roles. These roles are often created because of the color of their skin. Similar to how Asians are usually the martial artist.

An increase in movies with more minority characters being actual characters instead of stereotypes would help solve this issue. Those who do watch foreign shows, movies, etc. probably have no problem with relating to a character no matter what color the actor is.

If I couldn't relate to someone who wasn't my gender or race, I'd never watch anything.

That said, I've always found it odd how I relate to more male characters than female characters. This might be just playing the odds, however, since there are more male protagonists.

I relate more to female characters. I think it may be I'm tired of all the male tropes and what not.
 
I am a white male in the US

I like to imagine myself as many different creatures across the expanse of the universe

I cannot relate to what your friend said unfortunately
 
I can somewhat understand the line of thinking in videogames as a lot of those encourage you to 'put yourself in the shoes' of the character but not liking a movie because you cant relate to the ethnicity or sex? You're watching a story unfold not being asked to imagine yourself going through it. I can't relate to Sleeping Beauty as a character but I don't really have to either.

On the other hand I have found myself understanding cultures and religious beliefs more because I can empathise with certain things a character does(even Sleeping Beauty). When we see things like pain or love on screen we can empathise with that and it humanises what is otherwise alien to us. Well, I hope so anyway.
 
I relate to female characters more than anything else. I also find if fascinating that white men can't relate to anything but white men when consuming media.
 
You're smart OP. Do you think there's more to it than the feeling of privilege? A person of the privileged class would have a hard time relating to a role-flip of what the non-privileged class has been forcibly exposed to all their lives.
 
Very rarely has it felt hard to associate with a character if they aren't white... I can understand it but most of the time its not an issue in my head

perhaps if it is a situation in a movie i just cant picture myself being in the feeling is more pronounced.. But a good movie should have you emphasising with the characters regardless of race

generally i think i like imagining i am in the characters shoes but that's me
 
It's also gets more interesting when you consider science fiction and fantasy. Like dudes have no problem reading a story with hobbits, elves, dwarves, vampires, and aliens who all come from magical fairy tale land being the protagonists but put a minority from real life in that position and you some how can't relate to that.
 
Non US, non white, can't relate to US culture for the most part so it's irrelevant to me. Then again I don't put myself in films as the MC, neither do I with videogames where I have no agency in creating and molding the character visually and ito personality.
 
It's also gets more interesting when you consider science fiction and fantasy. Like dudes have no problem reading a story with hobbits, elves, dwarves, vampires, and aliens who all come from magical fairy tale land being the protagonists but put a minority from real life in that position and you some how can't relate to that.

Real life is too real.

People will see a face with a circle and two dots. They will empathize with a cartoon character and flinch when Tom the cat gets hit over the head with a hammer. Elves and aliens are safe, having no feeling of connection to the real world and many possible scary or negative emotions associated with reality.

In the real contemporary world, there are a thousand biases. Social upbringing, politics, etc. Other people can be a real threat to one's own sense of security. I talked to a heterosexual woman once, who was baffled by, for instance, gay people. She claimed she couldn't imagine in any way that gay was a real thing, it made no sense. Eventually she got really agitated and angry, and Freudian slipped that she knew *she* was a woman, she wasn't confused about her feelings.

I have to wonder how many people who brusquely dismiss others with "I can't relate" are in fact uncomfortable thinking about it, because they don't like some feeling it brings up inside.
 
Real life is too real.

People will see a face with a circle and two dots. They will empathize with a cartoon character and flinch when Tom the cat gets hit over the head with a hammer. Elves and aliens are safe, having no feeling of connection to the real world and many possible scary or negative emotions associated with reality.

In the real contemporary world, there are a thousand biases. Social upbringing, politics, etc. Other people can be a real threat to one's own sense of security. I talked to a heterosexual woman once, who was baffled by, for instance, gay people. She claimed she couldn't imagine in any way that gay was a real thing, it made no sense. Eventually she got really agitated and angry, and Freudian slipped that she knew *she* was a woman, she wasn't confused about her feelings.

I have to wonder how many people who brusquely dismiss others with "I can't relate" are in fact uncomfortable thinking about it, because they don't like some feeling it brings up inside.

A lot of people lack empathy and imagination. Sadly, it can be that simple.
 
Remember when the movie The Best Man Wedding, a commedy about the friendship love and family, was called a "race themed movie"? I think that somehow applies here.
 
The idea that you have to have a self insert lead seems weird to me. I watched some indie flick on Netflix with Ruffalo about the rise of HIV/AIDS within the gay community. Also had that Sheldon dude from Big Bang. I hate that fucking dude, but it was a great movie anyway even if I couldn't relate to a bunch of gay white dudes and that Sheldon actor was legit.

I dunno i brought up the issue of minority leads to friends after that discussion we had a while back, Angelus. Between two black dudes, me and an fillipino friend, we could barely think up enough leads to count o two hands that got regular work as a big part. But each of my friends stated it wasn't because of their race, but instead because they simply weren't big enough.

That a Will Smith or a Jackie Chan was proof that Hollywood was unbiased despite the fact that they couldn't think of more than two handfuls of big minority actors between them all. Even less when you discounted pigeonhole stereotype roles for each.

Anyway I'm on a phone and my shit's rambling now. Idk I agree that it's weird, Hollywood is shitty. That's why I watch foreign films.
 
I dont really care about skin color, but I'll be honest and say that if a games protagonist isnt either a tough guy or a hot chick, Im generally not interested.
I like to see characters with traits and physical features that I admire.
 
I think your friends are full of shit.
I'd argue more people can relate/empathise with any person regardless of skin colour than those who can't. Maybe it's even just that white people in the US are fucked? Idunno, hell my favorite game characters are either black (Lee TWD), gay (Bill tLoU) or a young hispanic female. Maybe your friends are just idiots?

I do disagree with the trophy comment, and also there being more BF/WM than BM/WF representation in the media... well at least in Canada anyway.
It is really rare to ever see a WM/*F in any TV shows or Movies; however WF/BM is super common. That's my experience anyway, though not that any of this even matters... So I'm Shutting up now, lol.

Now onto the trophy comment. As someone who married outside my race, I am pretty pissed off at the suggestion I married her due to some fucked form of White Powah! I will admit it's fucking irritating that because people in the US can't get their heads out of their asses when it comes to race, all white people are painted with the same brush.
So I am rambling but sure ok, maybe some mentally fucked guys view a different coloured women as a trophy, but that shit's not normal and hardly exclusive to whites.
 
Yeah I find this view completely bizarre. I have a friend who says he never buys books written by women for this reason. They must think that enjoying art is very difficult for those of us who aren't straight white males.
 
I guess it depends on what you think the purpose of fictional media is?

If it's purely some sort of escapist endavour, then I could see how the prot. resembling you being useful.
 
It never bothers me in film or games, but I do find that it matters slightly in music. A lot of American artists make cultural references that are lost on me, whereas artists from my patch have lyrics like "Around here we say birds, not bitches" or "From a council flat, paying higher rate tax" which have far more cultural resonance with me.

I've never wanted to 'put myself' in a film or a game before. I use those mediums to explore the worlds of others, not recreate my own.
 
What do some of you mean by saying that his reasoning sounds like an "excuse"?

Do you mean that he can relate to minority protagonists but isn't willing to admit it? What is he trying to hide?

This is an interesting debate.
 
What do some of you mean by saying that his reasoning sounds like an "excuse"?

Do you mean that he can relate to minority protagonists but isn't willing to admit it? What is he trying to hide?

This is an interesting debate.

Not really an excuse but it's a cop out. The more you dig into that statement the less it makes sense. I just think people who would say that probably never put much thought into it.
 
I dont really care about skin color, but I'll be honest and say that if a games protagonist isnt either a tough guy or a hot chick, Im generally not interested.
I like to see characters with traits and physical features that I admire.

Funny because a lot of traits of "heroes" from todays movies are anything but, specially under the incredible coincidences trope movies seems to be falling into.

Can't say I can relate to your friends OP, but I'm sort of an activist in this regard so my judgement is impaired. Most people I know though have become accustomed to the white male protagonist and have trouble taking interest in movies that don't feature one... which is funny cause none of them are white.
 
I just cannot understand the mentality that you cannot relate to a character because of their ethnicity, gender or age. I know white males make up a large quantity of mainstream cinema and television, but that seriously limits the amount of quality films you can watch, books you can watch or programmes you can watch. If anything, diversity allows for me to relate more to different social groups that I wouldn't normally be able to understand so easily.

One issue with this might be that often times minority characters are poorly written - I don't need to go into the numerous sexist and racist stereotypes - and therefore are hard to relate to because they basically aren't characters. We are starting to get a lot of really good female protagonists in television for example (Liz Lemon, Mindy Lahiri etc.) that show a truly female experience. But trying to find well-written reflections of other minorities is hard.

Now, in games I can understand it somewhat more. I don't experience it myself, but if the protagonist is supposed to be a cypher for the player and not a character in its own right, then I can understand wanting something more representative of you.
 
It's not too hard at this point because we deal with it your whole life. A lot of people just don't care to imagine themselves in other situations. Unfortunately, empathy is one of the slowest emotions, and is even seen as a weakness by some people (remember Sotomayor's confirmation hearing?)

People won't empathize until they have to, like when GOP politicians suddenly stop going against LGBT rights once one of their kids/family members comes out.
 
Don't people always mention relatability when talking about reasons people want more diversity in video games and comic book movies (And in general, but those seem to be the two biggest pillars here)?

Not that that's an excuse to not watch or play something at all. But I can understand someone who looks like you being more relatable and that relatability resulting in a more enjoyable experience. That's why I always thought it was such a good reasoning for diversifying games in the first place.
 
I kind of have the opposite problem with games. I just end up feeling annoyed and roll my eyes when I see stuff that's clearly designed to pander to a power fantasy mindset.
 
The purpose of many artistic works (books, films, even games) is to encourage you to empathize with someone outside of your every day experience. To demand a relatable protagonist is to wildly, perhaps willfully, miss the point.
 
I dont think I factor race, ethnicity or gender of the protagonists into my choice of whether to experience media or not. If it's great I'll go see it or play it.

That being said I do tend to create characters that are white males. Though I think that makes sense. In a game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect I'm creating a character that is basically an idealized me to become the hero and I make choices that I would think I would make. I'm projecting myself into the game world basically.
 
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