Support NeoGAF

[davepoobond]

i think its weirder that they "put themselves" in that situation than that they can't relate to someone who isn't like them. that being said, the point of watching a movie/playing a game IMO is to experience something you would not personally ever experience

 

[Irobot82]

Are we supposed to relate?

So when I play a narrative game with a pre-made character I don't try to relate to them, I experience their life in this "digital moment". I enjoy experiencing what they do. I don't care who the main character is, I don't need to relate, I just need to be able to absorb them in a sense.

Does that make sense at all?

 

[Yado]

It's odd to me when people need to relate to or place themselves in a character's shoes at all really. I've never felt the need to do that in order to enjoy something.

 

[aeolist]

white privilege: the thread

people who have never had to stretch outside their comfort zone to enjoy a pastime tend to be lazy and entitled

 

[John Kowalski]

I never take this commentary seriously. It's unfortunate if the person really does feel that way and cannot help but restrict themselves so, but it's so obviously a result of predominant gender/race representations that i have a hard time even considering the person exclaiming it capable of true criticism, of nay kind.

But perhaps it was that very underlying comfort and knowledge about how art works that has given me the necessary perspective to not feel that way, a comfort with the formal aspects of film can definitely help understand what is being conveyed often beyond superficial details, which race and sex often are.

Art is inherently about communication, if you only see what you want to see, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Do Better]

when he watches a movie he sees himself as the character on screen and when they're black/asian/female it takes him out of the movie and he's more reluctant to see the movie.

To me that sounds more like wanting a power fantasy than needing relatability.

 

[ppor]

I can't relate to people who can't relate.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

I think familiarity is a better word.

In science-fiction most aliens are humanoid. Sure it's cheaper budget-wise to cast humans and not have to design environments for different species, but the audience relates more to two feet and opposable thumbs because they're familiar. If there were no humans in Transformers it probably wouldn't be as popular, and even then the Transformers take humanoid forms.

The primary demographic for "hardcore" video games are white males, so most protagonists are white males. Games also parrot movies, and most financially successful movies have white males as the protagonist.

And yes, the whole lack of minority leads is a big issue. When a movie casts a female/minority male in a role supposedly meant for a white male, it results in controversy. If you've seen the movie "The Pelican Brief", it stars Denzel Washington, but in the book his character is white. There's also a romance in the book that is cut from the movie.

 

[Servbot24]

To me, announcing that you can't relate to something is announcing your own shortcoming. If you can't relate then you better get to work expanding your world view and capacity for compassion.

 

[RM8]

Is it weird that I never watch films / TV looking to "relate" with anyone or anything? I'm happy being the spectator. Because of this, I actually like characters / settings that I can't relate to.

Games? I'm a gameplay person, I don't care if I'm playing as a male, female, blasian, white-latino, human, frog, robot whatever protagonist. I want fun gameplay and cool character designs.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

The problem I have with this defense is that it can only even apply to a small subset movies that are realistic slice of life type stuff. We can't actually relate to what it's like to be a superhero, secret agent, detective, soldier, president, space-faring era, olden-times era, supernaturally plagued, etc, kind of person. Of course people respond by saying, well the issues facing them are different but the way it affects them is similar to the way I react to issues in my own life, so I can relate that way. But then what stops them from doing the same thing for other races/genders? It's usually something deeper or simply a refusal to engage at all.

 

[Mixolydian]

I've never had a problem with empathy, but I think that declaring something is "wrong" with someone, or that they have a shortcoming if they can't relate is the equivalent of armchair quarterbacking. Of course there are some who cannot get past certain things like race or gender, but those are people I dont hang with.

I don't care what race or ethnicity made a movie, music, or wrote a book. If it's good, it's hood. The only thing I judge those mediums on is if they engage me in a way that has me thinking about them long term.

 

[MCN]

I'm having flashbacks to the San Andreas reveal debacle.

 

[Dram]

I'm having flashbacks to the San Andreas reveal debacle.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=820

 

[Foggy]

It's an odd sentiment and is probably rooted in more subconscious instincts. I think most people that respond by saying they can't relate don't really understand why they feel that way so they look for the shortest line from A)their response to B)a justification. It's the clearest difference they can come up with, but never have any sort of eloquent reasoning for why that difference causes such a different response.

 

[RM8]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=820

Wow, LTTP. "I personally can't watch black porn", I can't breathe.

Actually, I'd say it's creepy that anyone would want to "relate" to a GTA game.

 

[Jado]

On that subject I've read views about romance depictions in film making people uncomfortable. I've read people saying that they don't like watching white women hooking up with males of different ethnicities on screen, but they're fairly okay with off screen suggestion. This has always been mindblowing to me as well; I was looking for a thought piece written by some guy giving his reason he doesn't like seeing it. His argument is that he and many men like him unfortunately see women as "property" for lack of a better word (I think he says something about the woman being like the trophy for the main and that seeing a white man "conquer" a minority woman is like an ego boost; while seeing a minority male "conquer" a white woman annoys them and feels like an attack on his manhood).

I personally don't understand that; but on some level many people in Hollywood must think this way themselves, or assume the audience thinks the same way because despite BM/WF making up the largest percent of interracial relationships in the US, they're the least represented in media. While WM/BF are grossly over represented in media. Another issue is that WM/*F romances are always shown on screen, while minority male/white female are rarely shown on screen (random example being in Prometheus. Charlize Theron/Idris Elba's quickie isn't shown on screen in any capacity only insinuated).

Given how Hollywood works (assumption of audience + focus groups) this is a large problem with increasing diversity in films; Hollywood assumes that movie goers won't want to watch a movie in which the main character isn't a white male as it will turn too many people off. Now at one point in the US this definitely might have been the case.

I've touched on this several times before and was reluctant to make a thread about it due to the visceral reactions I've gotten over the mere mention of it in the past.

Honestly, it stinks. Movies and television love bending to the will of racists and the mentally shut-in. The totally asexual black (Asian, Hispanic, Arab, Indian) male is a real problem in entertainment. If anyone is confused what this is about, just look it up and then pay close attention to the shows you watch. Men of color are usually dickless with no discernible sex drives, while white men right alongside them are hooking up with women from all backgrounds. Perfect example: Baby Mama with Fey and Pohler. Malco and Pohler (below) should have obviously hooked up and were probably meant to in some version of the script. But you know... Hollywood.

Relevant quote from an article about this trash:
The White Liberal “Feminism” of Tina Fey and Baby Mama

There are few roles for people of color in Baby Mama’s white world. The biggest is that of Fey’s doorman, Oscar Priyan (played by Romany Malco), who assumes the role of the Magical Negro, receiving no character development but dispensing much sassy advice and support to the two white female protagonists with whom he never, ever has any sexual tension. Towards the end I though perhaps Amy Poehler’s character would end up coupled with him—during a climactic spat Fey calls her white trash” to which she replies “I deserve that” and Malco intones “no, you don’t”. Wow, is Baby Mama actually going to develop the latent class-solidarity theme that cried out from under the cutsey scenes of Poehler and Malco asexually bonding? Given the predictable, formulaic trajectory of the entire movie (I spotted the films final “twist” the second Fey met Greg Kinnear), they should have gotten together—except for the Magical Negro law which forbids him from having any sex life, especially one involving a white lady.

Now we have women of color being thrown into the spotlight, but only if they're constantly lusting after and having sex with white men (Scandal, Mindy). Yay, ratings! Shonda Rhimes is fully aware that Scandal would not sell to audiences if it was black woman/black president nor white woman/black president. Mindy Kaling has apparently gotten a ton of support from minority groups to help launch her career (MANAA Asks Fox To End “White Only” Dating Policy on “Mindy Project”) but knew her show should would bomb if she didn't surround herself with an attractive white supporting cast and endlessly date white men only. I read she eventually added a minority character: a stereotypically sassy black nurse. She's gotten well-deserved criticism and only taken on a really shitty defensive stance. She made it big (with help from people like her) so who cares, right? Figures.

Relevant:
Mindy Kaling Only Makes Out With White Guys on The Mindy Project

Anyway, this isn't true diversity representative of real life. It's the continuing pandering to narrow-minded Americans and indulging in white male fantasies of getting the exotic colored girl. I'm over this nonsense.

 

[besada]

It never bothers me in film or games, but I do find that it matters slightly in music. A lot of American artists make cultural references that are lost on me, whereas artists from my patch have lyrics like "Around here we say birds, not bitches"

As a septic, I've never had much trouble understanding what a band like The Streets were talking about. I think that's part of the joy of experiencing culture that originates outside your own -- the sense of seeing with new eyes and hearing with new ears.

 

[Carnby]

I can't think of a time when I watched a movie and thought "That could be me!"

 

[Anton Sugar]

So I was with a few friends earlier today and we were dicussing movies. The four of us (myself, my best friend Yoon, and two others). We were initially speaking on the how some movies are so badly written not in story but rather in how the character goes about solving the major issue in the story (the overarching story could still be good but this kills a movie for me). Anyways, we somehow got on the subject of just having more diverse main characters in the American film. At one point one of my friends basically states he "cannot relate" to nonwhite main characters; his argument being when he watches a movie he sees himself as the character on screen and when they're black/asian/female it takes him out of the movie and he's more reluctant to see the movie. Honestly I felt this was a really weak argument he presented, I say this because both myself and Yoon despite not being white have no problem/choice with relating to movie characters. So I don't see why he or anyone else who shares his mindset can't do the same when presented with minority characters.

It's bullshit. If anything, film/cinema is one of the best ways possible to show the perspective of someone else (ultimately, the director, but the characters by proxy) and relating to it. Roger Ebert has a really good quote on this but I can't find it.

This guy sounds like he is just uncomfortable viewing the world through anyone else's eyes other than his own.

On that subject I've read views about romance depictions in film making people uncomfortable. I've read people saying that they don't like watching white women hooking up with males of different ethnicities on screen, but they're fairly okay with off screen suggestion. This has always been mindblowing to me as well; I was looking for a thought piece written by some guy giving his reason he doesn't like seeing it. His argument is that he and many men like him unfortunately see women as "property" for lack of a better word (I think he says something about the woman being like the trophy for the main and that seeing a white man "conquer" a minority woman is like an ego boost; while seeing a minority male "conquer" a white woman annoys them and feels like an attack on his manhood).

Also, he sounds like a major douche.

As for the rest of your post--it's essentially a more "casual" yet institutionalized fear of this:

 

[block tower]

On that subject I've read views about romance depictions in film making people uncomfortable. I've read people saying that they don't like watching white women hooking up with males of different ethnicities on screen, but they're fairly okay with off screen suggestion. This has always been mindblowing to me as well; I was looking for a thought piece written by some guy giving his reason he doesn't like seeing it. His argument is that he and many men like him unfortunately see women as "property" for lack of a better word (I think he says something about the woman being like the trophy for the main and that seeing a white man "conquer" a minority woman is like an ego boost; while seeing a minority male "conquer" a white woman annoys them and feels like an attack on his manhood).

im curious as to this part. is their really this sort of tribalism among the average white male pertaining to interracial romance on screen? i dont mean this in an insulting way, im just asking if at a conscious or subconscious level does the average white male have a sense of ownership when seeing a white woman on screen having a romantic relationship with a non-white male? i really never thought of this point myself, because as someone who is biracial (czech/AA), ive never had this sort of sentiment when it came to women of any ethnicity on screen, maybe partly due to my racial background.

 

[Angelus Errare]

You're smart OP. Do you think there's more to it than the feeling of privilege? A person of the privileged class would have a hard time relating to a role-flip of what the non-privileged class has been forcibly exposed to all their lives.

For some people there is more to it than privilege, some just don't see minorities as equals. But for many it's simply their inability to see past their own viewpoints in life.

I think your friends are full of shit.
I'd argue more people can relate/empathise with any person regardless of skin colour than those who can't. Maybe it's even just that white people in the US are fucked? Idunno, hell my favorite game characters are either black (Lee TWD), gay (Bill tLoU) or a young hispanic female. Maybe your friends are just idiots?

I do disagree with the trophy comment, and also there being more BF/WM than BM/WF representation in the media... well at least in Canada anyway.
It is really rare to ever see a WM/*F in any TV shows or Movies; however WF/BM is super common. That's my experience anyway, though not that any of this even matters... So I'm Shutting up now, lol.

Now onto the trophy comment. As someone who married outside my race, I am pretty pissed off at the suggestion I married her due to some fucked form of White Powah! I will admit it's fucking irritating that because people in the US can't get their heads out of their asses when it comes to race, all white people are painted with the same brush.
So I am rambling but sure ok, maybe some mentally fucked guys view a different coloured women as a trophy, but that shit's not normal and hardly exclusive to whites.

No offense but you're overly defensive, there is absolutely no need for the #notallwhitemen rebuttal dude. Anecdotal experiences are near pointless in these types of debates; and I'm willing to bet the number of WM/*F on screen romances dwarf the *M/WF on screen romances even in Canada; you're simply arguing that because you are not aware/have not seen this in media that it's not there.

As for the female = property = conquer bit. That was what was one person's view on it and why it made him uncomfortable seeing BM/WF on screen romances; arguing that other races do it too is a pointless thing to bring up when we're talking about how Hollywood plays a role in reinforcing this lopsided romance in media.

For every one movie in which you see a *M/WF onscreen romance, you can easily name 10 in which it's WM/*F as the onscreen romance regardless if this is film or TV. I'm somehow doubting that Canada is this utopia of equal representation.

No one is claiming "all white men see females as trophy wives" reread the initial post and this time without the anger of feeling attacked.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

If being able to relate was that important, we'd never have all sorts of classics. It's not like it's easier to relate to mass murderers, terrorists and

Spoiler

talking animals

than an interracial couple. Right?

 

[Satch]

Don't people always mention relatability when talking about reasons people want more diversity in video games and comic book movies (And in general, but those seem to be the two biggest pillars here)?

Not that that's an excuse to not watch or play something at all. But I can understand someone who looks like you being more relatable and that relatability resulting in a more enjoyable experience. That's why I always thought it was such a good reasoning for diversifying games in the first place.

The issue is that minorities of all kinds relate to white men in media all the time, easily, with very little work. They've essentially been forced to relate to the white man's experience because the minority experience is barely present in media at all.

So the question is, what is it about white men that makes it so hard for them to relate to minorities, when minorities have consistently related to white men for decades?

 

[War Peaceman]

The issue is that minorities of all kinds relate to white men in media all the time, easily, with very little work. They've essentially been forced to relate to the white man's experience because the minority experience is barely present in media at all.

So the question is, what is it about white men that makes it so hard for them to relate to minorities, when minorities have consistently related to white men for decades?

You said it right there. They've never had to adapt as minorities have. It is why visibility and representation is so important for all types of minorities.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

No offense but you're overly defensive, there is absolutely no need for the #notallwhitemen rebuttal dude. Anecdotal experiences are near pointless in these types of debates; and I'm willing to bet the number of WM/*F on screen romances dwarf the *M/WF on screen romances even in Canada; you're simply arguing that because you are not aware/have not seen this in media that it's not there.

As for the female = property = conquer bit. That was what was one person's view on it and why it made him uncomfortable seeing BM/WF on screen romances; arguing that other races do it too is a pointless thing to bring up when we're talking about how Hollywood plays a role in reinforcing this lopsided romance in media.

For every one movie in which you see a *M/WF onscreen romance, you can easily name 10 in which it's WM/*F as the onscreen romance regardless if this is film or TV. I'm somehow doubting that Canada is this utopia of equal representation.

No one is claiming "all white men see females as trophy wives" reread the initial post and this time without the anger of feeling attacked.

I think I came off all wrong here. I am hopped up on dayquil and not expressing myself properly I guess. Anyway I wasn't defensive towards you personally for your post, but the idiocy of what your friends said got under my skin. I was commenting on their shitty opinions.
Besides my post wasn't meant to mean #notallwhitemen, just sharing my personal thoughts on the subject. So I guess it's just a #notthiswhiteman post.

 

[wildfire]

I don't understand the mentality myself, but then again I do not try to project myself onto these characters so maybe that's why I don't understand it. While I have never actually seen somebody argue for it myself (although I know it has happened at times, like with San Andreas for example), I have seen quite a lot of people argue the that we need more minorities/women in lead roles specifically so that these groups would have more roles to identify with which is pretty much exactly the same thing just reversed.

Basically sums up my own thoughts on the topic. It's lame but a significant chunk of people think like this across any type of boundary you try to box them in as.

 

[wildfire]

Are we supposed to relate?

So when I play a narrative game with a pre-made character I don't try to relate to them, I experience their life in this "digital moment". I enjoy experiencing what they do. I don't care who the main character is, I don't need to relate, I just need to be able to absorb them in a sense.

Does that make sense at all?

If we are going to as this question at a high level. Yes.


Nostalgia critic goes into great detail how humanistic features make Tom and Jerry so much better than it would've been without is as comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g95LoGROho

It's a great primer on learning the basics of comedy that no one else explains very well.

 

[CPS2]

white privilege: the thread

people who have never had to stretch outside their comfort zone to enjoy a pastime tend to be lazy and entitled

I think I'm gonna have to accept that people commonly misuse words to mean the complete opposite of what they're saying. fwiw you don't actually mean that people are entitled to straight white male protagonists in films. You mean they think they are entitled or are self entitled but actually are *not entitled* but I could care less because you're literally hitler.

 

[BocoDragon]

I know when watching 12 Years a Slave and watching the rape scene, I was completely unable to feel empathy or any emotion at all. After all, the victim was a totally different gender and ethnicity to me! So how could I feel anything, really?

 

[kirblar]

You said it right there. They've never had to adapt as minorities have. It is why visibility and representation is so important for all types of minorities.

However, targeted media is definitely a thing. Tyler Perry movies, Queer as Folk, Univision - these things are directed specifically at a certain sub-population. The audience for "my stuff only" isn't restricted only to people in the majority population, it's very much present in the minority populations as well, for people in those subgroups who want the things they're personally familiar with (culture/race/religion) onscreen. And that leads to tension, and things like "Looking" being criticised for not being "gay enough", despite, y'know, featuring 3 gay male leads, gay sex, and the Folsom Street Fair.

 

[GraveHorizon]

My friend (white male) says Batman is a better, cooler character than Black Panther because he's more relatable. And he's more relatable because he's white.

 

[Fancy Clown]

If you can't relate to movie characters (or people) simply because of different race, sex, or gender then you lack empathy.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I think I'm gonna have to accept that people commonly misuse words to mean the complete opposite of what they're saying. fwiw you don't actually mean that people are entitled to straight white male protagonists in films. You mean they think they are entitled or are self entitled but actually are *not entitled* but I could care less because you're literally hitler.

To be fair, "entitled" is commonly used that way. E.g., "he's an entitled little douche" for a spoiled brat.

He's not actually, legally/morally/righteously, entitled. Of course.

 

[ponpo]

On that subject I've read views about romance depictions in film making people uncomfortable.

This is the part I can't relate to (._. )

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Its such a bullshit excuse. We're all humans, a character isn't suddenly unrelateable because they have a different melanin level. I don't know how someone can say that and not realize how shallow and racist it makes them sound.

edit: thanks satch, lol

 

[Satch]

Its such a bullshit excuse. We're all humans, a character isn't suddenly unrelateable because they have a different melatonin level. I don't know how someone can say that and not realize how shallow and racist it makes them sound.

melanin