You're all over the place. Are you saying then that it is rational to be offended by nigger and faggot? How does that square with your comment on being offended by mere 'words' being the kind of people you wouldn't associate with?
I had a rare encounter with a racist today.
- Thread starter Mineshaft_Gap
- Start date
- Status
You're all over the place. Are you saying then that it is rational to be offended by nigger and faggot? How does that square with your comment on being offended by mere 'words' being the kind of people you wouldn't associate with?
I think the first argument is hard to understand because there are a lot of other terms used to describe an object and people. French wine. European currency. British coats. African food. To the extent that "Oriental Rug" just feels like a case of Oriental modifying the object.
And I don't see the region aspect, by itself, as being overly offensive: If I introduce a friend as "He's European", I don't see that as offensive and have never heard of that as being offensive.
I think it's difficult because the name of the region changed and the context with which it has been used in the past 200 years. To my knowledge, the region was commonly referred to as the Orient, so Oriental would describe both the items and people coming from the region. Now, Asian or Far East Asian both seem politically correct, but understanding why does require context.
Oriental is not as immediately obvious offensive as, for example, "wetback". That term does not describe a region or a region that ever existed, it's clearly stereotyping behavior or an otherwise derogatory term. Whereas the term "Orient" requires more context to understand why it is hurtful.
That being said, I don't use the term because some people find it offensive, but it is certainly more nuanced and not immediately obvious.
kurisu_1974
Banned
No you misunderstood, I was being facetious. I think being offended is an irrational waste of time.
And I don't see why I can freely respond to people trying to insult me, without me being actually offended, something that other poster seems to find very confusing and dumb? But yeah the red flag of being white is out, right?
Zoe
Member
If "oriental" refers to more than just Asia, why do people reserve it for (quoting War Eagle here) "slant eyed Asians"?
The fact that it's not a term used to label people pretty much highlights the issue.
kurisu_1974
Banned
It's interesting because while "orient" is used to describe a region, "oriental" is not used to describe people in Europe. You'd say "people from the orient", not "oriental people". But it's also not just used for objects as Gucci Messiah claims, and neither is it "European imperialist".
I guess it might actually be a historical thing, just not the way Gucci thinks. The US did terrible shit in East and South-East Asia and refers to Asians in general as "oriental", but that would mean the negative baggage comes from US imperialism, not European imperialism. That would also explain why it's typically not considered racist outside the US. There are a ton of oriental restaurants owned and operated by people from oriental countries carrying "oriental" in the name in Europe and nobody cares. And by "oriental", I mean mostly Turkish.
Zoe
Member
That's not what people have been saying about its usage in the UK.
Except it is:
"A native or inhabitant of an Occidental country; a westerner."
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occidental
Eddie Griffin
Banned
Race as of 2014 now extends to people with mental preferences, immigrants from any country, politicians, handicaps, religion, chicken, and in some cases, animals.
It's just now a popular word to throw around now and easy to use to get someone upset, defensive, or in trouble.
But on topic with this situation, both were in the wrong, but still wondering why OP made that completely out of left field sentence.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
They aren't cards, you have come into this thread and said some straight up ignorant things that multiple people have corrected you on. You have also been asking for literature on the subject and help from posters to better understand nomenclature and historical context. When somebody explains these things, they are educating you.
And yes, there is a right and a wrong to this discussion. It's okay to unknowingly say something offensive and then change your stance after being called out on it. What isn't okay is victim blaming or using excuses like 'I grew up with the word' or 'I have _____ friends' to de-legitimize the feelings of others.
Are you kidding me? No seriously, have you never taken a AP history course in high school or a general education class in college? No shit 'Orient' and 'Oriental' have been around before 'modern' imperialism (Yes, the Romans did engage in imperialism) but that isn't the point here. I'm speaking specifically about the word in relation to the subjugation of people, land resources, and culture in Asia by Europeans. Want some literature on the subject? Start here.
Just because the term was started by the Roman Empire, which stretched into Babylon (modern day Iraq), known today as Asia, or THE MIDDLE EAST, doesn't make the term 'meaningless.' Seriously, what kind of logic is that? I've already explained multiple times how using the term oriental can hearken back to the days of imperialism and the negative connotations that has for a lot of people.
People generally don't get upset over being called something for no reason at all, usually a word is used in a derogatory manner, has historical context, or is antiquated and considered rude. If somebody came up to me and called me 'exotic' because of my dark skin and curly hair, I'd be annoyed and correct them. You know why? Because it makes me feel like an object or an animal, and that is dehumanizing. It's wrong to place blame on the victims and tell them to do research on words before getting offended. The bottom line is that if I say something and somebody says 'Hey Gucci, I think that's offensive, can you not use that term?' my reaction is to apologize and not do it again in their presence. That's what rational people do, not get on google to try and tell somebody what they can and cannot be offended by.
To answer the other part of your question, I don't think you know what subjugate means. Europeans used force to conquer indigenous people, keep the population under control, and deprive the country of resources. They were technologically superior in the art of warfare, that was the big difference. I have already described how the term oriental was originally used so go back and read that again. No, it was not used as a slur, yes, it evokes unpleasant feeling based on historical context and can be considered offensive.
If you can't see why believing that every person, regardless of color is equal, I don't know what to say.
Zoe
Member
But people never use that term.
These are great points. I also remember (over a decade ago) learning about the treatment of Asian immigrants within the US, especially in South and Western US; I wonder if the term Oriental would be more offensive here than it would be in the Asian countries for reasons like that.
To be fair, I almost never hear the term oriental either.
At least they seem roughly comparable in modern usage (oriental used about five times as much according to google ngrams) https://books.google.com/ngrams/gra...rect_url=t1;,oriental;,c0;.t1;,occidental;,c0)
samus i am
Member
He must be a Redskins fan.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
The difference is that your European friend hasn't historically been on the receiving end of exploitation, enslavement, racism, and subjugation. I don't know why people keep saying 'Well I don't get offended when being called European.' Obviously that doesn't seem offensive, you haven't had your race or region of origin dominated by white men who seek to steal your resources and destroy the existing cultural identity in order to instill their own values.
As far as context goes though, you hit the nail on the head. People need a better understanding of the history involved.
spectral_method
Banned
I never say it because I just say Asian. Oriental is not a word I ever use. That being said, I don't care if that word offends someone. My girlfriends grampa says wetback and jokes around that I'm a mexican, It doesn't matter to me. He has his faults but is an all around good guy, I'm not gonna start a discussion over the correct term and alientate myself from her family. Most of the time these people are older and have an outdated view on things, who cares? They are going to die and the newer more accepting generations will come along and make everything PC so no one is ever offended.
What are you talking about
How often is occidental used to disparage people?
Oh, but we have been. By other Europeans and *gasp* oriental empires. You know, the Persians, Moors, Ottomans, Mongols and so on. History didn't suddenly start 200 years ago.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Staying silent in the face of overt racism and taking a 'who cares if this old dude is slinging around slurs? It doesn't affect me, he'll be dead soon' attitude is being complicit with the behavior. Honestly, that's a terrible opinion to have and makes me question your integrity as a person. Just because he's a 'good guy' who likes to casually throw out slurs (this seems contradictory to me but whatever) doesn't mean that you shouldn't care. I'm not saying you should confront the guy and call him a racist dick but you could voice your displeasure in other ways.
Clearly I am speaking about *gasp* MODERN imperialism. Don't try to move goalposts and deflect from the issue at hand here. That was cute to try and cherry pick at my post again though.
Zoe
Member
Oriental and occidental are terms that go hand in hand. If one is in use but the other is not, than the use of the one is "othering" those people.
Eddie Griffin
Banned
I caught you with this coment slick rick lol.
Why does it matter? A word is either offensive or it isn't, regardless how often it is used.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Well, I'm glad to know that Oriental is a "bad" word, I had no idea.
Honey Bunny
Member
It's pretty widely used in the UK. Food packets, restaurants and whatnot. Unless somethings changed in the few years since I've been there that is. I only learned it was a contentious term through US residents on gaf.
On a related note, I recently learned of a games store here in Switzerland called http://wog.ch/. Now that wouldn't fly in the UK.
On a related note, I recently learned of a games store here in Switzerland called http://wog.ch/. Now that wouldn't fly in the UK.
Messofanego
Banned
I think you missed the word disparage in my post.
spectral_method
Banned
Staying silent in the face of overt racism and taking a 'Who cares if this old dude is slinging around slurs? It doesn't affect me, he'll be dead soon' is being complicit with the behavior. Honestly, that's a terrible opinion to have and makes me question your integrity as a person. Just because he's a 'good guy' who likes to casually throw out slurs (this seems contradictory to me but whatever) doesn't mean that you shouldn't care. I'm not saying you should confront the guy and call him a racist dick but you could voice your displeasure in other ways.
It doesn't matter to me dude. He jokingly does it and I don't care. Unless he says "you effing beaner, I want your kind to leave my country" then I won't take offense because while yes it is a slur, he isn't using it in an agressive manner towards me.
Agressive manner: means whatever I/anyone wants it to mean, If you consider simply saying a slur to be agressive or an affront to you/your people/etc then good for you go voice your opinion. I won't care about it until I deem it necessary to say something, which I rarely do because I'm a man with giant brass testicles and no emotions just how god intended to make them, and I don't get upset with small meaningless interactions with people I see may four times a year.
When exactly did modern begin, and which oriental (not Asian - if you want to use European imperialism as an explanation, you have to use the European definition) countries were conquered, enslaved and exploited by those evil European imperialists you constantly talk about? And do you actually realize that parts of Europe were still occupied by the Ottomans until well into the 19th century?
I stand by what I wrote: If the term in racist in the US, it's probably because of US imperialism in combination with the US definition of the term, not European imperialism. You know, events like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War
In most cases "oriental" is used to point out someone's origin and nothing more.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
The modern age of imperialism began in the 1700s and continues to this day, I thought this was pretty common knowledge. You sure are getting defensive over facts, I'm guessing you live in Europe? Want an idea of when Asia started to be divided up between European nations looking for natural resources, territory, and extended spheres of influence? Open a new tab, go to google, and do a simple search. I'm not going to sit here typing out an essay on the history of imperialism unless you're giving me credit towards my masters.
EDIT: I'll just make this easy and put you on ignore. It's obvious you just want to move goalposts and deflect from the original issue, which is that 'oriental' can be considered a derogatory term based off of historical precedence, namely imperialism.
Setting an arbitrary time period seems more like moving goalposts. Apart from Vietnam and to a lesser extent Indonesia and China you'll not find a lot of historically fueled ill will towards westerners and their imperialistic exploitation.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
is "The Orient" not allowed to be used anymore? (not saying i use that word)
That's exactly how it was explained to me, years ago.
Honey Bunny
Member
It's racist and offensive when referring to people but not to objects in the US, then? That's interesting.
sankt-Antonio
Banned
Today in a meeting, this one guy said "i have this and that problem, to solve it we could pull a niggertrick by doing (so and so)". I was shocked.
Then, his boss said "yeah, that would really be a niggertrick, we can't pull that off".
I was like, WTF IS GOING ON!?!
I don't like these two people anymore.
Then, his boss said "yeah, that would really be a niggertrick, we can't pull that off".
I was like, WTF IS GOING ON!?!
I don't like these two people anymore.
That's an interesting idea. Isn't the term 'Jap' thought of as racist largely due the the internment of Japanese-Americans? I wonder if this is something similar.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Um, its not arbitrary, but alright. The age of European imperialism is pretty well defined.
I can't tell if your last sentence is a joke post or not. Japan, China (which is freaking huge and shouldn't be discredited), the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, India..don't even get me started on Arabia. Wow.
I don't think it's a slur, just an outdated term for a particular region. Now we are more specific using the middle east, southeast asia, etc
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
My stance is to just not repeat things someone tells me are racist/offensive. I was surprised and thought it was a bit silly that oriental is considered racist, but it's really not my place to say.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
So if I'm just hanging out with my friends and casually call one a 'faggot' for doing something I don't like, that makes it okay? If an Asian friend trips and I tell them to open their eyes so they can see where they're walking, stretching my eyelids for emphasis, that makes it okay? Come on dude, casual racism is not okay and doesn't deserve a place in our society. Sitting there and letting him call you a 'wetback' is being complicit. He's a grown man that knows right from wrong, there's no doubt that the guy knows he's using racially insensitive language that would piss off a lot of Mexicans. It doesn't matter if you're saying it aggressively or being a casual racist, that's not cool. Once again, I'm not telling you to dump your GF and tell her gramps off. However, there are other ways to handle the situation and sitting here saying 'it doesn't bother me, I don't care' is a disgusting attitude to have in my opinion. Not that you care what some stranger on neogaf has to say.
Oriental is the laziest word possible. It's been pointed out that Oriental has referred to the Middle East, then South Asia, then finally East Asia as shit got less mysterious for Europeans. When it finally ended at East Asia, it stuck.
But it's always been a lazy term for the other, the exotic, and it's super bullshit to hear it describe someone in 2014.
And for all of the people who aren't from America and might not understand the specific American culture of race relations, if you're an Asian and you hear someone call you Oriental it's only re-indicative of being considered not American, instead being from the Orient, a mysterious and exotic place.
Asian Americans may vary in their ignorance on whether they should be offended or not.
But it's always been a lazy term for the other, the exotic, and it's super bullshit to hear it describe someone in 2014.
And for all of the people who aren't from America and might not understand the specific American culture of race relations, if you're an Asian and you hear someone call you Oriental it's only re-indicative of being considered not American, instead being from the Orient, a mysterious and exotic place.
Asian Americans may vary in their ignorance on whether they should be offended or not.
I think that term is always negative, whereas "oriental" is just a neutral description with no inherent negative connotation (from "sol oriens" -> "rising sun" -> East). If it carries any negative connotation in certain parts of the world, those would have been caused by events or behavior towards people from those regions. But in this case, it's really complicated because Americans and Europeans apparently don't even use the term to describe the same region, so the events and behavior would obviously be different as well.
Except that's the American (or British?) definition, not the (continental) European one.
I'm gonna blogGaf a little to share a similar anecdote
I'm Mexican, and I had a "kinda funny" racist moment in EPCOT last year... I'm not sure if I was supposed to be offended or not, I just found it a little awkward.
Context: me and my GF were on EPCOT Disney last year, and there was this Food and Wine festival going on. There were little food stands representing several countries and you could get a dish for 3 to 5 bucks, and we were determined to try them all...
so, we check out the Mexico stand and we see that the food offering was very "meh" (meat tacos, fish tacos and a traditional dessert), so we didn't try that. Fast Forward to the Greece stand, we were in the line and a middle-aged woman asked us if we knew what they were serving in Greece. The conversation went like this:
"We're not 100% sure, I think it's a lamb dish and a salad with some fancy dressing".
"If you're not sure, why are you in the line?"
"Well, we want to try every dish in the festival, we just skipped Mexico"
"Why? the tacos were amazing"
"Yeah, I'm sure they were, it's just that we're mexicans, and we were expecting something a little more gourmet"
"What?? are you serious? You guys are mexicans?"
"Yeah..."
"But you don't look mexicans at all!!, you look jew"
"Well, we're not, we're mexicans".
"You're pulling my leg, right?"
"No, I swear".
"Well, then it's OK that you skipped the Mexico stand, I'm sure you eat tacos everyday"
"Emmm, kinda". (I was very awkward at this point)
"I still can't believe you guys are mexicans"
and in that point we politely ignored her before it started to get uglier
I'm Mexican, and I had a "kinda funny" racist moment in EPCOT last year... I'm not sure if I was supposed to be offended or not, I just found it a little awkward.
Context: me and my GF were on EPCOT Disney last year, and there was this Food and Wine festival going on. There were little food stands representing several countries and you could get a dish for 3 to 5 bucks, and we were determined to try them all...
so, we check out the Mexico stand and we see that the food offering was very "meh" (meat tacos, fish tacos and a traditional dessert), so we didn't try that. Fast Forward to the Greece stand, we were in the line and a middle-aged woman asked us if we knew what they were serving in Greece. The conversation went like this:
"We're not 100% sure, I think it's a lamb dish and a salad with some fancy dressing".
"If you're not sure, why are you in the line?"
"Well, we want to try every dish in the festival, we just skipped Mexico"
"Why? the tacos were amazing"
"Yeah, I'm sure they were, it's just that we're mexicans, and we were expecting something a little more gourmet"
"What?? are you serious? You guys are mexicans?"
"Yeah..."
"But you don't look mexicans at all!!, you look jew"
"Well, we're not, we're mexicans".
"You're pulling my leg, right?"
"No, I swear".
"Well, then it's OK that you skipped the Mexico stand, I'm sure you eat tacos everyday"
"Emmm, kinda". (I was very awkward at this point)
"I still can't believe you guys are mexicans"
and in that point we politely ignored her before it started to get uglier
Nobody is arguing against that. It clearly is offensive to a lot of Asian Americans.
It's the false equivalence to the n word that is objectionable and inflammatory. Also Americans do not have a monopoly on words and their meanings.
- Status