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[Bedlam]

First it's "gamers" who are apparently all misogynistic, hateful freaks and therefore have to be "over" and now it's the whole internet that hates her.

I'm not disputing anything that actually happened to her, after all there are idiots on the internet, but I'm not okay with these kind of ridiculous generalizations.

 

[KJRS_1993]

Nobody gives a shit that she had sex with 5 guy, but people do care that a developer is sleeping with the so-called journalists that are covering her games. Its totally unethical from a journalism standpoint.

Please see InternetAristocrats vids on the topic...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

Video games journalism has been ridiculously unethical since long before this. Journalists being invited to parties, a crapton of free gear and Christ knows what else behind the scenes to bump up those review scores and write ridiculous hype articles.

What is it about this one that suddenly puts the ethics of games journalism at the top of the map for some people?
Don't pretend this is about journalism, it's an excuse to be absolute dickwads.

 

[MrGerbils]

Always hated the stance GAF seemed to have on this issue. Especially Evilore's incredibly condecending and clearly disingenuous post about it.

Oh GAF is one dude? You're posting on GAF. You must be him! Please tell us GAF's stance on the issue.

 

[The Technomancer]

As I understand the accusations, she slept with A journalist *after* he wrote favorably about her game.

If I was going to decide who was in the wrong there, it wouldn't be Zoe.

The writing in question was also like, mentioning her game in a list of other interesting games. So...yeah

 

[see5harp]

I don't care who she sleeps with. I don't look at review scores to determine what sorta games I like. I was never going to play her text based choose your own adventure ever. She sounds like a shitty girlfriend but that has nothing to do with the gaming industry or what I put on my game fly queue.

 

[neoemonk]

Nobody gives a shit that she had sex with 5 guy, but people do care that a developer is sleeping with the so-called journalists that are covering her games. Its totally unethical from a journalism standpoint.

Please see InternetAristocrats vids on the topic...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

Then why isn't anyone attacking the journalist?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Nobody gives a shit that she had sex with 5 guy, but people do care that a developer is sleeping with the so-called journalists that are covering her games. Its totally unethical from a journalism standpoint.

Please see InternetAristocrats vids on the topic...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

1. Where are the proofs?

2. Why then is she the one being harassed? Wouldn't the supposedly corrupt journalists be the ones to blame then? Or are we supposed to see them as poor victims of an evil female enchantress who used her sex appeal to control them?

No matter how you look at that argument, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[notworksafe]

Pretty sure Obama is the most hated person on the Internet. At least if we're going by website comments and Twitter.

 

[andymcc]

First it's "gamers" who are apparently all misogynistic, hateful freaks and therefore have to be "over" and now it's the whole internet that hates her.

I'm not disputing anything that actually happened to her, after all there are idiots on the internet, but I'm not okay with these kind of ridiculous generalizations.

what i think is more intellectual disingenuous is treating "gamers" as if they are some sort of persecuted class.

 

[Serpens007]

I loved 4chan until it was flooded with 13year-olds cancer who never understood that hating and "u should die" posts there were jokes and never meant to turn into public harasssment to people.

It amazes me how stupid people are to do all of this. We have a long way to go. I just don't understand how afraid are some guys about women beign in the industry, are they afraid thar they will take out porn out or what?

Jeez. I mean, I have been cheated and it hurts a lot, but even if she did actually do that, it doesn't justify public harassment.

 

[MrGerbils]

Nobody gives a shit that she had sex with 5 guy, but people do care that a developer is sleeping with the so-called journalists that are covering her games. Its totally unethical from a journalism standpoint.

Please see InternetAristocrats vids on the topic...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmy5OKg6lo&list=UUWB0dvorHvkQlgfGGJR2yxQ

Then your problem should be with the journalist, not with her. But I bet you'd have to jump on google to even remember the journalists name.

 

[The Technomancer]

Then your problem should be with the journalist, not with her. But I bet you'd have to jump on google to even remember the journalists name.

Yeah generally speaking when someone trades sex for favorable treatment we assume that the one offering the preferential treatment is the exploitative one. But Zoe Quinn is apparently a succubus

 

[Anton Sugar]

3) The fact that she cheated on her ex was meant to show off her true character and that she wouldn't be above doing immoral things.

I love that this is apparently the single defining trait of her "morality". As if "good, moral" human beings have never cheated.

Yeah generally speaking when someone trades sex for favorable treatment we assume that the one offering the preferential treatment is the exploitative one. But Zoe Quinn is apparently a succubus

Didn't you know? Women have all the power in sex. Men have no choice.

 

[lmpaler]

Seriously. The controversy was sparked because a jilted lover posted about her sex life and people took that and ran with it to call her atrocious names. What is supposed to be the other side? What other side could possibly justify this enough that the vitriol affects her family?

Which on that note. Why would you even post something like that online?

She cheated on you, move the fuck on and get over it.

You got back with her.

She cheats on you again. And again. And again.

There comes a point where nobody will feel sorry for you anymore because you know what you are getting involved with and you LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU


Was it absolutely disgusting and wrong what the Internet did when he posted his little blog? Yes, absolutely. Those people need better things to do and even if she did do everything he said, she didn't deserve any of that.

But it is also PATHETIC to write a HUGE diatribe on why she is such a shitty person for manipulating you and cheating on you over and over and over(which you allowed).

Why can't people just not live their lives and fucking Facebook and the Internet sometimes?

Like, if he was upset and posted a thread just needing to vent, similar threads to what we have here on GAF, then "Hey man, cool". Communities like this can be a great thing when you all become tight knit, but to just purposefully blast the girl on the Internet on multiple sites and then host your own blog for it(which you update) is well...kinda psycho.

You can say that it was to show the world how shitty of a person she is, but part of me thinks you had a power trip when you realized she was frantically trying to not get you to tell his wife because it could ruin her career and his if she went pubic and you continued to let yourself be abused for the sake of what, I do not know.

Assuming this is actually true and all. I could be wrong and way off base. Who knows really?

 

[BlackGoku03]

When I saw this blowing up everywhere, I looked into it and... I couldn't find where the rage was coming from. I really couldn't. I just... don't quite understand it.

Can someone enlighten me? I was going to ask this in the initial thread but it was moving so fast, I figured my post would be lost in the discussion.

If we, for a moment, assume all the FUD is true, how does this affect me and my games?

 

[besada]

I liked this one:

Truth In Gaming: An Interview with The Fine Young Capitalists

Please take discussion of #gamergate as a whole to the #gamergate thread. And quit dropping links with no commentary.

 

[Kade]

Always hated the stance GAF seemed to have on this issue. Especially Evilore's incredibly condecending and clearly disingenuous post about it.

The stance that this situation is garbage and that the only evidence supporting GamerGate is some Benghazi Loose Change Obama's Passport conspiracy logic?

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

So many of you bums have been saying she did "a lot of bad stuff" so I've looked into it and I can't find shit other than she had sex. Okay...?

Didn't she cheat on her boyfriend with five guys? At least that's what it says on the first page of the thread.

Not that that justifies the harassment.

 

[Riposte]

it's an instance of "gamers" banding together to label something as a "shitty non-game" so they can clearly define to everyone what is and isn't allowed in the video game space

the exclusionary and bigoted behavior makes it extra funny when people start saying bad things about "gamers" as a group

What if you think it's shitty and a game? It's not bigoted to think a concept is flawed.

One unfortunate result of this state of affairs is that by criticizing her game I'm throwing my hat in with those you describe.

 

[Bedlam]

what i think is more intellectual disingenuous is treating "gamers" as if they are some sort of persecuted class.

I find both sides equally ridiculous. This whole part about "gamers" in this conversation is absurd. It should be about "idiots on the internet".

 

[plagiarize]

1. Where are the proofs?

2. Why then is she the one being harassed? Wouldn't the supposedly corrupt journalists be the ones to blame then? Or are we supposed to see them as poor victims of an evil female enchantress who used her sex appeal to control them?

No matter how you look at that argument, it doesn't make any sense.

Not even that, because she slept with him *after* the favorable press. So that'd be the journalist using his journalism to get a woman to sleep with him by flattering her publically.

Which would be a serious breach of journalistic integrity on his part, but unless we have a shred of evidence saying Zoe said 'I will sleep with you if you say nice things about me in the press' it's entirely on the press sneak fuck.

 

[JSoup]

Topic title had me expecting Phil Fish crying about something again. :/

 

[SparkPeople]

It sure sounds like you're condoning people going on there saying "I don't want to say she deserves it, but she deserves it."

She didn't deserve to have her private life exposed like that, nor does she deserve the constant stream of shit that comes her away as a result of it.

But when she started doing interviews and articles about the state of sexism in gaming culture, she should have been ready for the backlash. It doesn't make sense to me to do a talk about how shitty women are treated on the internet, then act surprised that she, a woman, is treated poorly on the internet.

I think what they were going for was that if you're going to engage in entry level victim blaming, it would be best to do ANYTHING else.

That said, I don't necessarily disagree with your comment. I think the people who are trying to justify the harassment Quinn has received while at the same time saying harassment is wrong, are complete scumbags.

I think this is a serious communication problem that's happening. Quinn's harassment is wrong, but it's not surprising. Trolls around the internet have always tried to make it a boys club since day one.

I'm not blaming Quinn for cheating. That's between her, and her ex-boyfriend, and whoever else she affected. I think she's a shitty person for doing it, but then again I don't care enough to do anything about it.

I blame her ex-boyfriend for breaking her trust, and her privacy to post an online retribution against her in the industry she works in. Doing it under the guise of "hey guys there's a serious problem in your industry by my cheating ex-girlfriend" is weak as shit. The fact that we are ok with breaking someone's privacy for nudes or punishment is worse than the harassment of individuals.

That's certainly, uh, one interpretation of that Editor's Note. A tad cynical and on-the-defensive for my tastes. I prefer the more obvious one.

Which is?

Please elaborate on that...

The drama with the TYFC's policy on transgender persons, which came at the same time she was trying to host her own game-making event. But that was whatever. She made peace with them now.

Her initial response to the entire controversy was "I will not negotiate with terrorists", which was the best way to handle this. Don't fan the flames, don't engage with people who threaten you, and let them tucker themselves out.

Cut to a few weeks later: She's retweeting, making blog posts about, and engaging with the trolls again. This gives them more ammunition, and more power in the long run.

 

[plagiarize]

I find both sides equally ridiculous. This whole part about "gamers" in this conversation is absurd. It should be about "idiots on the internet".

Who in this thread is using "gamers" in that way? I'd love to know.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

He can choose to do whatever he wants, so can you or so can I. But I hope he returns to post.

Hasn't Gamergate moved on to Destiny and how Bungie is complaining about "early" reviews?

It's an expression. I'm not literally mandating that he come back and explain himself, just as I'm not really saying that GAF is a hivemind (both things I figured would've been clear).

What he posted is basically just a drive-by shit post though, unrelated to the main topic. Therefore, it warrants some explanation. Although as this is also unrelated, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Stylo]

I love that this is apparently the single defining trait of her "morality". As if "good, moral" human beings have never cheated.

Yeah, I've read that and never understood why people are so fixated on that.

 

[MrGerbils]

Yeah generally speaking when someone trades sex for favorable treatment we assume that the one offering the preferential treatment is the exploitative one. But Zoe Quinn is apparently a succubus

It's also absolutely impossible that two people who work in the same industry, share the same likes and interests, and have the same friends, could possibly want to sleep with each other because they like each other. It has to be that she's using sex to get one post on Kotaku about her free game.

 

[Angelus Errare]

what i think is more intellectual disingenuous is treating "gamers" as if they are some sort of persecuted class.

In the other thread, someone actually stated that "gamers" are being persecuted worse than black people ever were.

My eyes rolled so hard that I was temporarily blinded.

 

[Jules Coast]

Isn't it amazing how similar all people are? I just see so much similarity in the reaction to this scandal and other social issue headlines like the ongoing Ray Rice domestic violence issue. I want to make it very clear that I am not drawing comparisons between the actual events that transpired, just the reaction.

• The assumptions made about people you've never met
• The assumptions made about situations that you were not there for
• The assumptions made about the events that could have led up to this
• The witchhunt for Zoe Quinn/Ray Rice/Roger Goodell

I think it's just human nature. Too much energy is put into their condemnation and not enough is put towards turning a negative event into a positive conversation about the future.

 

[Bedlam]

Who in this thread is using "gamers" in that way? I'd love to know.

Probably no one, I don't know as I haven't read the full thread. By "conversation" I meant the two extremes of the broad picture that are flinging shit at each other.

 

[plagiarize]

The drama with the TYFC's policy on transgender persons, which came at the same time she was trying to host her own game-making event. But that was whatever. She made peace with them now.

Her initial response to the entire controversy was "I will not negotiate with terrorists", which was the best way to handle this. Don't fan the flames, don't engage with people who threaten you, and let them tucker themselves out.

Cut to a few weeks later: She's retweeting, making blog posts about, and engaging with the trolls again. This gives them more ammunition, and more power in the long run.

not talking about sexism doesn't make it go away. exposing it and shining a harsh light on it could over time actually help.

She gets to talk about the shit she has been put through, and if that means she is put through even more shit as a result, that isn't on her, because she shouldn't be put through shit for talking about unfairly being put through shit.

Kill the discussion is an openly stated goal of some of the people throwing hate at her. I don't blame her for not doing what those people want either.

You say she is giving them more ammunition, but really they want her to shut up.

 

[Palette Swap]

Didn't she cheat on her boyfriend with five guys? At least that's what it says on the first page of the thread.

Not that that justifies the harassment.

And that's nobody's business. Yet, it's the only fact actually discussed.

Not even that, because she slept with him *after* the favorable press. So that'd be the journalist using his journalism to get a woman to sleep with him by flattering her publically.

Which would be a serious breach of journalistic integrity on his part, but unless we have a shred of evidence saying Zoe said 'I will sleep with you if you say nice things about me in the press' it's entirely on the press sneak fuck.

The plan totally makes sense: sleep with a journo after coverage, to promote your free game.

Occam's razor, how does it work?

 

[Simply Sarah]

She didn't deserve to have her private life exposed like that, nor does she deserve the constant stream of shit that comes her away as a result of it.

But when she started doing interviews and articles about the state of sexism in gaming culture, she should have been ready for the backlash. It doesn't make sense to me to do a talk about how shitty women are treated on the internet, then act surprised that she, a woman, is treated poorly on the internet.



I think this is a serious communication problem that's happening. Quinn's harassment is wrong, but it's not surprising. Trolls around the internet have always tried to make it a boys club since day one.

I'm not blaming Quinn for cheating. That's between her, and her ex-boyfriend, and whoever else she affected. I think she's a shitty person for doing it, but then again I don't care enough to do anything about it.

I blame her ex-boyfriend for breaking her trust, and her privacy to post an online retribution against her in the industry she works in. Doing it under the guise of "hey guys there's a serious problem in your industry by my cheating ex-girlfriend" is weak as shit. The fact that we are ok with breaking someone's privacy for nudes or punishment is worse than the harassment of individuals.



Which is?



The drama with the TYFC's policy on transgender persons, which came at the same time she was trying to host her own game-making event. But that was whatever. She made peace with them now.

Her initial response to the entire controversy was "I will not negotiate with terrorists", which was the best way to handle this. Don't fan the flames, don't engage with people who threaten you, and let them tucker themselves out.

Cut to a few weeks later: She's retweeting, making blog posts about, and engaging with the trolls again. This gives them more ammunition, and more power in the long run.

Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that because of her saying harassment is a problem for women that her getting harassed as a woman as a result should just mostly be shrugged at?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Probably no one, I don't know as I haven't read the full thread. By "conversation" I meant the two extremes of the broad picture that are flinging shit at each other.

There's an "extreme" harassing a female developer and her friends and family. What is the other "extreme"? People saying "gaming culture" is toxic?

 

[plagiarize]

Probably no one, I don't know as I haven't read the full thread. By "conversation" I meant the two extremes of the broad picture that are flinging shit at each other.

This 'two extremes' framing needs to stop.

One extreme wants women not to suffer misogynistic bullshit and is openly angry about it. The other wants gaming to remain a place where they can be openly misogynistic.

One of these extremes is not as extreme as the other.

Oh, and one of them deserves to get shit thrown at it.

 

[maltrain]

50% of the day? You spend exactly twelve whole hours every single day sat at your computer? That's insane. I wish somehow that that could be explained as some sort of slight exaggeration meant to add emphasis to your point but as we all know in reality everything is entirely literal. What a fucking lol...

I work 8 hours a day (like almost everyone here in Chile) and I'm all the time connected to internet. I administrate a forum and make a digital magazine too, so I'm on my PC easily 4 more hours a day (not every day of course, but 5 days a week at least). I play games, seeing movies, stay with my children and wife 4-6 hours and never sleep more than 6 hours. So... nothing so special.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that because of her saying harassment is a problem for women that her getting harassed as a woman as a result should just mostly be shrugged at?

I think he's saying she is fanning the flames by regaining the spotlight with articles and interviews.

I'm not sure if I agree or not. It's hard for me to have a solid opinion on this other than none of this should have happened in the first place.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Isn't it amazing how similar all people are? I just see so much similarity in the reaction to this scandal and other social issue headlines like the ongoing Ray Rice domestic violence issue. I want to make it very clear that I am not drawing comparisons between the actual events that transpired, just the reaction.

• The assumptions made about people you've never met
• The assumptions made about situations that you were not there for
• The assumptions made about the events that could have led up to this
• The witchhunt for Zoe Quinn/Ray Rice/Roger Goodell

I think it's just human nature. Too much energy is put into their condemnation and not enough is put towards turning a negative event into a positive conversation about the future.

How can you compare the reactions when the events are totally and completely different? People wanted action on Ray Rice because first there was a video of him dragging his unconscious then-fiancee out of an elevator and then because there was a video showing him actually knocking her unconscious.

In the case of Zoe, you had an angry ex posting relationship stuff that, while certainly not painting her in a very good light, doesn't really have much of anything to do with the responses that followed.

 

[AstroNut325]

Not even that, because she slept with him *after* the favorable press. So that'd be the journalist using his journalism to get a woman to sleep with him by flattering her publically.

Which would be a serious breach of journalistic integrity on his part, but unless we have a shred of evidence saying Zoe said 'I will sleep with you if you say nice things about me in the press' it's entirely on the press sneak fuck.

Agree with this. I still believe Zoe shouldn't be harassed. The journalist(s) should be the ones to answer for corruption. But even then... seeing the stupidity and childish behavior on Twitter, and other sites is mind boggling. It does look like the whole thing is a cover to push misogyny.

 

[plagiarize]

I think he's saying she is fanning the flames by regaining the spotlight with articles and interviews.

I'm not sure if I agree or not. It's hard for me to have a solid opinion on this other than none of this should have happened in the first place.

Get the fuckers all riled up so they publically spew their nonsense and we can all see them for the bigots they are.

She is a victim of harassment, so she gets to talk about being harassed. It's ludicrous to say that she shouldn't, because if she does, she will be further victimized.

That's entirely on the people harassing her. ENTIRELY.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I think he's saying she is fanning the flames by regaining the spotlight with articles and interviews.

I'm not sure if I agree or not. It's hard for me to have a solid opinion on this other than none of this should have happened in the first place.

What some people see as "fanning the flames", I see as publicly exposing the terrible behavior of all those harassers.

Those people WANT to silence her. The logical answer is to expose those assholes.

 

[FartOfWar]

In the other thread, someone actually stated that "gamers" are being persecuted worse than black people ever were.

My eyes rolled so hard that I was temporarily blinded.

Please link us to it. Sounds amazing.

 

[aeolist]

What if you think it's shitty and a game? It's not bigoted to think a concept is flawed.

One unfortunate result of this state of affairs is that by criticizing her game I'm throwing my hat in with those you describe.

criticism isn't the problem, the issue comes when people try to "other" her or her games because of the design choices she made. excluding multiple choice text adventures from being games (which i doubt would even happen if DQ weren't about a social cause) is a tactic intended to try and silence certain speech and voices from participating in the culture.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Get the fuckers all riled up so they publically spew their nonsense and we can all see them for the bigots they are.

She is a victim of harassment, so she gets to talk about being harassed. It's ludicrous to say that she shouldn't, because if she does, she will be further victimized.

That's entirely on the people harassing her. ENTIRELY.

I see. Makes sense.

I guess that's like a civil rights victim speaking out after the fact to shed light on the wrong doing.

Maybe SparkPeople has the mindset: "If she didn't like the attention before, why keep doing it?"

 

[Dega]

Never heard of her.

lol Me either.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I've been working on a game that talks about this stuff, so I've read a alot of interviews and write ups from and about people like Phil Fish, total biscuit, Adam orth, anita sarkeesian, and Adam Sessler. And what's so strikIng about this one in particular is how strong and resilliant she seems to be despite arguably getting it worse than all of these people. pretty amazing.

 

[plagiarize]

I see. Makes sense.

I guess that's like a civil rights victim speaking out after the fact to shed light on the wrong doing.

Maybe SparkPeople has the mindset: "If she didn't like the attention before, why keep doing it?"

That reads scarily close to 'if you don't want to keep being treated that way, stop dressing that way'. I get the point, but the answer is probably something like 'because now it's a matter of principle'.

 

[SparkPeople]

Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that because of her saying harassment is a problem for women that her getting harassed as a woman as a result should just mostly be shrugged at?

No, absolutely not. No one should be harassed for their gender. I can see where it sounds like I did though, my bad on that.

What I'm saying is that there are significant problems within the gaming community when it comes to allowing women into the actual culture. This is a bad thing, and ridiculous if you take a step back and look at what women bring into every culture they permeate.

That said: there are issues with saying the gaming community is "white males, college educated, racist, misogynist." It's a terrible generalization that's caused a lot of backlash. First, it puts at gamers the defensive, such as boogie's youtube video "I'm not a bigot, are you?".

Second, it marginalizes the rest of us who are not white, not racist, not misogynist because we either have to defend ourselves, or deny affiliation with something we enjoy.

Third: because this movement and general atmosphere is coming from outside gaming culture, it places even more people on the defensive because it's coming from a movement that criticizes, but has done little to actually change things.

The culmination of criticism, outright attack, and general trolls stoking the fire has resulted in an atmosphere where there is an immediate affiliation attributed to a person the second they step into the battlefield. This forces a lot of the level headed people to stay away and leaves only the hard liners to scream into each others faces.

Why am I writing this long diatribe? Because I think Zoe Quinn would have been attacked regardless of gender. The use of gendered insults obiscufates this, but even kotaku writers, Phil Fish, and the TYFC campaign manager have all been attacked (all men).

I think that people who want to criticize Quinn's actions on legitimate grounds are frustrated at being thrown into the misogynist camp. The use of gender as a shield hurts more than it helps.

That reads scarily close to 'if you don't want to keep being treated that way, stop dressing that way'. I get the point, but the answer is probably something like 'because now it's a matter of principle'.

If the principle is "don't harass women because of their gender" I'm all for it.

 

[BlackGoku03]

That reads scarily close to 'if you don't want to keep being treated that way, stop dressing that way'. I get the point, but the answer is probably something like 'because now it's a matter of principle'.

Not really. It's kind of how people questioned those who decided to march for civil rights knowing they may be bitten by dogs, hosed by firefighters, and taken to jail. "Why march and stand up for yourself when the system is still broken?"

See what I mean? Or maybe we should just let him respond to SimplySarah's post....

 

[Devilgunman]

Nobody gives a shit that she had sex with 5 guy,

I think that's the only thing I give a shit, but I don't feel the need to express my harsh opinion about this woman in public.

Thing she should learn:
- Be sincere to your boyfriend and stop fucking other guys.