France sounds like a really racist place.
My coworker might get fired for a racist comment.
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France sounds like a really racist place.
op did she look around before she said it. lol
go ahead i'll be watching the news.
go ahead i'll be watching the news.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Is this a joke? People go their entire lives without making a bigoted comment at work. That's a good record. One comment at work, that's a fucking atrocious record. This is an all or nothing thing. We're talking about racism here, we're not talking about misfiling a paper.
It's 2014 and we're talking about someone stating their daughter should not marry blacks or jews in America. I'm not honestly interested in educating that person using work money, fire her ass and hire someone who isn't racist, oblivious to work place decency and a liability cause some serious fucking offense to her coworkers. Come the fuck on, there are thousands of people out there who want to work, find a job and contribute to society while not being bigoted pieces of shit. We are past the point where we should need sensitivity training for something so obviously wrong. I don't like jumping to firing and wrecking a person's stability but I also see zero reason how this is an issue where having this person continue employment is a good idea.
Manmademan
Member
It may be worth considering the issue the US may be culturally different from France in this regard.
30% of the population (blacks, hispanics, asians, other similar minorities) have only had civil rights here since 1965, and it has been a VERY long process getting us to where everyone is on equal footing. edit: hell, we still aren't many states have no protection for gays, so "oh, you're gay? you're fired" isn't illegal in a lot of places.
France also revealed itself as a nation with rampant, violent, anti-semitism this year.
Not really a model society I believe that we should follow.
KidGalactus
Member
...for the KKK
So, one slip up is not that big a deal. Mmkay. Do you guys like the three strike rule? How many times should we be allowed to be openly racist at work? And how racist should we be allowed to be? Can I say I don't like Jews and have that be not so bad, but not say kikes can burn in hell? What kinds of racism should we tolerate at work and what's an acceptable frequency/tolerable limit?
If there's any wiggle room, it's not racism and you're just overreacting.
If there's no wiggle room, yeah it's racism but don't make people who say racist shit face actual CONSEQUENCES, that's just overreacting.
Killing_Joke
Member
I wouldn't have snitched on her but that's just me. HR should just tell her to keep her personal opinions to herself and call it day.
Squirrel Killer
Member
All I'm saying is that the company has an option which protects them from the negatives of both firing the racist and whatever liability employing a racist in the first place opens them up to. To the company, writing her up and warning her that further instances will lead to termination is a win-win.
Not that it matters to the company, but maybe that opens the racist's eyes a little bit too and she becomes a better person rather than a bitter hag who thinks the world is going to hell because FERRDUM FO SPEECH IS DED!
Angelus Errare
Banned
I think racists should be a protected class. Totes not fair that are discriminated against. Think about their families, they're just words. Simply put up with it and smile! Besides...is it really racism or just ignorance?
I ever tell you that you are my favorite poster on GAF?
I ever tell you that you are my favorite poster on GAF?
DoktorEvil
Banned
4 years is a long time for someone who's a racist to go without being flagged/documented by HR for a comment.
I'd argue that firing her without at least attempting to remedy why her ideas or thoughts are wrong is unethical. She's in her 50s and she should understand how much the world has changed from 1980s to 2014. "jive" doesn't even exist anymore.
HR's job in itself is to help the business achieve it's goals by managing the finite labor and resources humans offer in the workplace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_resource_management
HR has failed to teach diversity and inclusion in this respect. HR has failed if it can't teach this woman why her thoughts about her personal opinion on who her daughter dates isn't a proper thing to express in the workplace, nor why it's wholly wrong to think that way.
This change happened because the Federal government stepped in and actively undermined what State and local munis were doing, which was protecting civil workers who're bigots and KKK members in the South. They were protected just by being involved in government. That change is a great one. It was the one our country needed. Calling in the National Guard to protect black students during integration was needed.
This is a woman, who honestly sounds like she shouldn't have been in that workplace to be with, talking about who her daughter can date and can't date. Who the fuck thinks that is something okay to talk about at work?
That's why HR exists! To protect those who don't have authoritative power & to defend the business from an abusive boss or bigot co-worker. HR is failing in this instance.
If HR doesn't do shit(Which is what those people who're paid in HR to do), then the company fails to operate properly and then fuck it, fire her. A company that doesn't have the bare minimum of HR procedures established doesn't garner much sympathy from me.
I would've done everything in my power to get you fired. Your grandpa is a racist shit with obvious less respect for blacks. Don't make excuses.
Mother fucker, it's not that complicated.
Letterbomb
Banned
Well can I ask what the correct way to say it is?
I've been accused of being a racist for saying it either way within the last year alone.
Black or African American? Which is it? =/
If you've been accused of being racist, it's not because you didn't know whether to say Black or African American, I can assure you of this.
DoktorEvil
Banned
If she lost her job come Monday, I wouldn't feel bad one bit, but HR should at least make the effort to document shit like that and do sensitivity training.
Letterbomb
Banned
No...it's exactly that. Please don't pretend to know my circumstances better than me.
I've been called a racist purely for saying "black guy" or "an African-American", neither in an aggressive or harassing tone or context. The point is that it's impossible to not offend people. Somebody is going to find a reason to be offended over diction, because that's the nature of connotation.
But I like how you couldn't even answer for me which of the two was the correct term.
Exactly. I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread who don't seem to understand the purpose of HR in the first place.
The problem is, at least to me, as that she made these comments to a manager AND another employee. Her views are out there, and a warning at this point does nothing to mitigate that damage.
As for the bolded, why do people keep saying this? THIS IS NOBODY'S PROBLEM BUT HER'S. Oh the poor racist. Won't someone please think of the poor racist??
milquetoast
Banned
I'd probably have told her to be careful about what she says because reasons and left it at that. I wouldn't destroy her job (and now she can't use the job as a reference either) by going to HR. The punishment is way too severe for having some offensive thoughts.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Congratulations, you're now a shitty manager that's made your workplace environment more toxic.
But at least the blatant racist is secure in knowing she's still got her paycheck coming.
Again: Anyone advocating this course of action is acknowledging and ALLOWING for racism to have a home in their workplace, and minimizing the negative effects for the sake of benefitting the racist's bank account, as well as their sense of well-being.
The concept of personal responsibility is being devalued in that scenario, as well.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If saying Black vs African American or vice versa were the reason you were accused of being racist those people are just stupid. Just say black. If the person says they prefer African American then just use that with them. But honestly, just use black, it's all encompassing but you don't argue with someone about how they would prefer to be referred to as. That's the mistake many people make. If they say you're racist all you do is say you've had conflicting views on which word to use so if you want me to use "X" simply let me know. You can't get any politer than that.
She's not in trouble for having thoughts. Other people can't hear thoughts.
She's in trouble for making offensive statements. HUGE difference.
For crying out loud, people. Stop trying to sugarcoat blatant racism.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
The company is under no obligation to show her the errors of her ways. If she doesn't learn that saying that stuff in the workplace isn't appropriate then she needs to fix it. She's created an uncomfortable environment and should be terminated for it.
If her company has a zero tolerance policy to racist remarks, then she's due what she's due. Racism isn't a gray area.
...Words, you know, typically used to convey ideas and beliefs.
You know, before I quit we used to throw some racist jokes here and there in my office but they were just that, jokes. No one got offended because we did it all in good fun and we knew each other very well. If she was really serious about the whole thing and kept acting like an idiot in the open, well then she had it coming if she gets fired.
milquetoast
Banned
nah. I'm just more forgiving than you.
Letterbomb
Banned
See, I wouldn't argue with someone if they said, "Will you call me African American over black?" But the thing is, that never happens. Here's what happens:
"So, this one black guy I knew..."
"THAT'S RACIST!"
"What? What should I have said?"
"YOU'RE RACIST AMG DON'T MAKE EXCUSES."
The moment someone labels you a racist in their mind, it's over. There's no arguing, discussion, or clarification. Just idiocy.
freeofgreed
Member
Are you black or Jewish? Because it's a lot easier to be more "forgiving" when you're not the offended party. Also please don't act like you're being morally superior, because you've essentially just said you'd taken the side of a bigot over all the black/jewish employees who would also would work for you.
And that's the worst thing that can happen to a racist.
AtomskEater
Member
Except OP wasn't the one to bring the matter up with HR.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
When it comes to accommodating workplace racism, that's not a good thing at all.
Gotdatmoney
Member
What does sensitivity training do for the rest of the employees in the work environment? This isn't just about her, that's what many people fail to realize. By allowing her to continue employment, everyone else that has to be around her is going to know she has these thoughts and it's going to make them uncomfortable REGARDLESS of what HR does bar firing her. Sensitivity training is done before issues occur, not after. Because honestly, as a black person, I'm not going to give a shit if HR gives a person in my work place sensitivity training after stating that I'm not worthy of dating her daughter because I have black skin. Do you expect me to be okay working around someone like that?
Letterbomb
Banned
I'm as forgiving as him and I'm Jewish.
What's the point you're raising here?
Hardly. Just look at the reactions in this thread alone. Dehumanization at the very least. People so eager to jump the gun and strip her of income/security because of an idle comment intended to lighten the mood.
milquetoast
Banned
my grandmother on my mom's side was jewish so technically..
Squirrel Killer
Member
Allow me to quote:
Me said:
Also, a warning may mitigate the damage already done. Obviously, it may not be a practice at the company in questions, but at my company, they notify the reporter of any disciplinary action taken in response to their report.
DoktorEvil
Banned
I don't know if OP has a zero tolerance workplace. He never indicated whether or not it was.
Shaming racists only puts people on the defensive about their ideas, not why they're wrong. HR has the opportunity here to administer training that it pays a lot of money for and it's a waste not to attempt to administer training before possibly canning her.
freeofgreed
Member
I updated my post
Yeah it's so wierd for people to not feel compassion for someone who dehumanizes them. I thought you said you were going to stop posting?
Gotdatmoney
Member
That person is just an idiot then. If the person isn't even going to hear out an explanation then so be it. Believe me, I'm not about everything being PC always, I find that annoying but it's still important to try and refer to people in a manner which they would like when you're talking about a trait they will always possess.
Defense force settled in. Get your popcorn.
freeofgreed
Member
Dude so what? She's already racist, who cares to what degree of a racist she is at that point? Also I highly doubt any fucking sensitivity training will suddenly make a lady whose at least 30 years old change views her own mother ingrained into her.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I bet you if a black coworker heard her and called her a "racist bitch". The people defending the ol racist lady wouldn't have any problems with that black employee being canned ASAP.
Squirrel Killer
Member
She wasn't terminated.
Manmademan
Member
argue all you want, but it is not the job of HR to "fix" broken employees. It's the job of HR to remove said employees when they cause a problem, and make sure the company's ass is covered via documentation.
In my case during onboarding all of this is covered several times. "harassment or discrimination on sexual, racial, political etc grounds is not tolerated and is grounds for termination." There is no room for "I didn't know being a racist is wrong". If you somehow managed to avoid catching up to the rest of society over the past several decades then you're not someone who should be employed. I'll hire someone who isn't an idiot, other racists will learn to keep that shit to themselves, and make all of our lives easier.
HR's job is to protect the company's interests. It's in the company's interests to not have bigots on the payroll.
your error here is thinking that it's HR's job to "teach" diversity and inclusion. It isn't. It's there to enforce it. It's not my job to teach you not to be racist any more than it's my job to teach you not to be an alcoholic, or not to steal from us. My job is to make you aware of the policy (which in the case of blatant racism is redundant imho) and enforce it. edit: every employee in my facility has about 40+ hours of state mandated training to complete every year. None of it is designed to teach you to not be racist, or not sexually harass employees. The reason why is because this shit should be obvious to anyone that's learned to walk upright. if I have to spend five minutes "teaching" you that racism and sexism are wrong, then you don't belong here.
and the federal government did this by bringing the hammer down on those who weren't compliant. When the governor of alabama blocked black kids from going to school he didn't get a written warning or a stern talking to, he got the national guard on his doorstep to show the feds weren't fucking around.
someone with poor judgement, which is another reason not to keep her around.
I read that part, but it literally does not matter. Nobody cares about her feelings or opening her eyes, and nobody should care. Considering her should not be priority over protecting the business and protecting the black and Jewish employees who could potentially work for you.
Letterbomb
Banned
I'd like to see both of them fired if the situation escalated to insults and slanders being thrown to and from each other. But that's not the situation. The situation is that an employee made an idle comment to lighten the mood. It was offensive, but not intentionally harmful. Action SHOULD be taken, but not to the extent that people are saying here. The action should be a sit down with HR--putting the HR department to good use, doing what's it's meant to do--and a verbal warning that termination is the consequence of repeated offense.
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