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[TheLostBigBoss]

What's the solution to this? She should have being a white Michonne?

Yes?

Thinking about this, what would happen if a white dude tried to be Glen and had a light "yellow" tint over his skin to attempt to 'mimic' (and I say this loosely) Glens race?

People should just not go there and be mindful of other people and history.

 

[Camp Lo]

What's the solution to this? She should have being a white Michonne?

Sure. Like I said before, no one would have stopped her and asked HEY! where's the black skin tho? She clearly was overthinking it to her own detriment.

Reveling on one's whiteness is generally frowned upon. Also, putting a new white spin on a black character might be seen as whitewashing the character.

Being white but wearing Michonne's clothing, armament, and accessories is considered whitewashing the character?

 

[cyclonekruse]

As a black woman, I'm not going to say this is racist or not, but I have a query for something I've never understood. When black people cosplay as non-black characters, we do so without painting our skin white or something. We revel in our blackness and put a new spin on the character. How come any time I see a white person have a black character costume, they have to go to extremes and paint themselves black?

That said, for her credit, her use of makeup is incredible and she gives a lot of respect towards the character.

Reveling on one's whiteness is generally frowned upon. Also, putting a new white spin on a black character might be seen as whitewashing the character.

 

[TimeEffect]

What do you mean disregarded?

On the first page, Tropic Thunder was brought up, but people deemed it not racist (or acceptable to do) because the whole point was that it was racist of the character to portray blackface.

So, it was okay to do because it brings up the issue while criticizing it, I suppose. But it seems that just means it's okay under context, but I wonder if people still laugh at the portrayal, in which case, isn't it still considered racist? Isn't the whole point that we shouldn't be laughing at black portrayals like this? Or is it funny because the characters don't recognize how ignorant/racist they are?

In IASIP's case, the characters are shitty people who do shitty things, but I wondered why people did not seem to be upset by it. I'm guessing it's because of similar reasons applied to Tropic Thunder (though I can't recall if the blackface was critiqued in the episode, or if it was just an episode that showed how shockingly bad and deplorable the characters on the show get)

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

What's the solution to this? She should have being a white Michonne?

She wouldn't have been the first

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

Reminds me of the Zoe Saldana/Nina Simone movie, where she had to apply dark makeup. Yet, well she's still black or part black I dont know.

Plenty of people gave her shit for that (partly due to her views on ethnicity). Same as they did the girl that was supposed to play Aaliyah originally, because she wasn't dark enough.

 

[kamorra]

man, europe sounds like the promise land

I don't know what you get out mocking him. Yes, it's kinda naive but that's what they tell us from the very first day of school. The concept of different races isn't taught in Germany as an example. Might have something to do with the Nazis who invented that idea in the first place.

 

[Mesousa]

What's so obvious about it? Are you going to explain why or just keep laughing?

This "White people can never ever try and look like a black character by darkening their skin under any circumstance" is an absurd and limiting rule that ignores context and intent.

Instead, you should be thinking "If you want to darken your skin to look like a black character, please be careful to handle it properly and with respect. Be mindful of how it was used in a racist manner so that your intent shines".

The big issue is why the need to black skin at all?

As already shown in this thread people have cosplayed as this character with their regular skin color and it looks fine. Black cosplayers are not dyeing their skin to fit the almost exclusively white characters of Sci Fi, so why does she feel the need to darken her skin to play at a black character.

Michonne is not just a skin color right?

 

[DY_nasty]

I would say she's being ignorant (and her intent is not to be racist). However, would it be better to educate her, and explain why it's really offensive, rather than jump straight to calling her racist?

Being called a racist is like the scariest thing imaginable XD

If doing idiotic things ends in you getting called an idiot, then why shouldn't doing racist things end in you getting called a racist? Take the L, look in the mirror, fix yourself, and move on.

 

[Ruud_Luiten]

Everything is racist, so therefor this is racist.

 

[Two Words]

And the nose?
Or being told that the depiction is a caricature and responding with "haters gonna hate"?
Sounds pretty ignorant to me.


Shines like those bright white teeth

I'll be honest, the constant mocking of an opposing view is growing tiring. I don't know, I always felt neogaf was moderated to avoid that kind of stuff overrunning a debate. It's disappointing when you realize a side you are trying to talk to is just half-listening to what you have to say until they find a good set up for a punchline. I guess this place isn't as well formed for discussion as I was hoping.

 

[prwxv3]

I have to admit its pretty impressive cosplay.

 

[Sushi Nao]

Honestly, North American culture has for so long extolled stupid and impulsive as "cool" and educated and thoughtful as "lame", and then we jump on people for doing something uneducated. I can totally see someone doing this out of sheer ignorance to the historical significance of it.

 

[Kinvara]

There is a long history surrounding how darker skin is deemed less beautiful than white skin. There is a whole system of oppression that makes it difficult for black models, actors, performers, etc. to get work simply because their appearance/race makes them less desirable than their white counterparts.

Dear white people: a race or skin color isn't something you can put on whenever it's convenient for you.

Quoting this again since no one has responded to me yet:

A race isn't a costume- just because she did it a little better than most doesn't make it any less problematic. (It still looks pretty inaccurate and bad.)

For a long time, I felt I couldn't get into cosplay because of my skin color because there were so few characters that I knew of that had darker skin. Eventually, I accepted that I can dress up as anyone who I want to be but the stigma is still there.

A white cosplayer darkening up their skin feels like a slap in the face to all the difficulties black cosplayers have to face in regards to racism.

She gets to smear on some bronzer and is applauded as "accurately" depicting this character.

While black cosplayers get comments like "XXX character isn't black. Why are you cosplaying them?" and "This is pretty good even though they're black".

 

[Two Words]

The big issue is why the need to black skin at all?

As already shown in this thread people have cosplayed as this character with their regular skin color and it looks fine. Black cosplayers are not dyeing their skin to fit the almost exclusively white characters of Sci Fi, so why does she feel the need to darken her skin to play at a black character.

Michonne is not just a skin color right?

I feel it is a choice. I see nothing wrong with choosing to not change your skin tone or change it. But if you choose to skin tone, you should certainly do it carefully.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

No it doesn't.

A race isn't a costume- just because she did it a little better than most doesn't make it any less problematic. (It still looks pretty inaccurate and bad.)

For a long time, I felt I couldn't get into cosplay because of my skin color because there were so few characters that I knew of that had darker skin. Eventually, I accepted that I can dress up as anyone who I want to be but the stigma is still there.

A white cosplayer darkening up their skin feels like a slap in the face to all the difficulties black cosplayers have to face in regards to racism.

She gets to slap on some bronzer and is applauded as "accurately" depicting this character.

While black cosplayers get comments like "XXX character isn't black. Why are you cosplaying them?" and "This is pretty good even though they're black".

Now this a post that should be read by all on the matter.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Depends on your reason for doing it. If it's meant as mockery I would consider it racist. If it's done out of adoration for a favourite character I can't really view it as racist.

This, basically. She was doing what she could to look like a character she likes. It's the opposite of racism.

This has very little to do with what this girl actually did and everything to do with people incorrectly associating it with "blackface" idiots from 70 years ago.

The way I see it, she's not stereotyping black people with her cosplay, she's trying to make herself look like one specific character, who happens to be black. In no way is that racist.

Exactly. If there is no stereotyping being done, and no negative connotations being suggested whatsoever, where is the racism in this? It isn't there.

 

[frankie_baby]

The big issue is why the need to black skin at all?

As already shown in this thread people have cosplayed as this character with their regular skin color and it looks fine. Black cosplayers are not dyeing their skin to fit the almost exclusively white characters of Sci Fi, so why does she feel the need to darken her skin to play at a black character.

Michonne is not just a skin color right?

I wasn't aware the girl had done nothing apart from change her skin colour for the costume

 

[Spoo]

there's no right choice, except not doing a cosplay of another race. maybe her looking pale white would fly okay with you, but not to her, so why should she do a half-ass cosplay in her eyes?

your sister probably gave herself space on the chest to be able to breathe? or maybe she just felt like taking a fanart take on the armor. I've seen pink stormtroopers.

Well, she has breasts. So it's a physical thing that she is working around, and it does impact the accuracy of her costume -- and you can call that half-assed all you want, but it's really not. So my point was, if this other girl really wanted to cosplay as Michonne, and she wanted to work around the fact that she is not black, then people are going to be okay if she doesn't paint her face. I mean, would you have the gall to walk up to someone and say "Gee whiz, you aren't black, how dare you try to have a take on this character!" That would be tantamount to asking women not to cosplay as their favorite male characters, or vise-versa.

So, yeah, she has choice, and she made the wrong one. She could have not worn black face and avoided offending a lot of people. She could have chose a different costume, too, but I'm not a fan of the idea of locking people out of their fun fantasies just because they don't have the 'accurate' physical qualities -- I would only care that when people do it they be considerate. If they are looking in the mirror and crying because their face isn't black and it means a 'half-ass' costume, they should probably take two steps back from that mirror and sit down and think so they can make up for all the time they spent NOT thinking.

 

[Juke Joint Jezebel]

For fucks sake people don't half overreact. This is racist? As a cosplayer she's just playing a character she likes from a show she enjoys, who cares if she used a bit of cosmetics to try and match the skin tone of the character she likes.

 

[Alucrid]

I don't know what you get out mocking him. Yes, it's kinda naive but that's what they tell us from the very first day of school. The concept of different races isn't taught in Germany as an example. Might have something to do with the Nazis who invented that idea in the first place.

because the sentiment, while ideal, isn't at all realistic. also, i'm an not expert on 20th century germany, but i don't think the nazis started the classification of humans into races

 

[Mighty Chin]

It's not Black Face and its not Racist. IMO she should have gone a bit darker.

 

[Two Words]

The way I see it, she's not stereotyping black people with her cosplay, she's trying to make herself look like one specific character, who happens to be black. In no way is that racist.

Even further, she is portraying a specific portrayal done by a specific real black actress.

 

[blitzcloud]

And the nose?
Or being told that the depiction is a caricature and responding with "haters gonna hate"?
Sounds pretty ignorant to me.


Shines like those bright white teeth

the nose was a fucking disaster.

but deflecting a wave of hatred saying "haters gonna hate" is not really uncalled for. if she really had no ill intention, why would she let some people tell her otherwise?

Apparently we have to adapt to what we can perceive as an angry mob tells us and change our views in a short timespan. Things like that take time to assimilate, bishop. And we're not the ones getting the pressure, so we have the time and freedom to talk about the matter openly without anyone staring at every word we type.

I mean...

I don't know, thats how I feel. We're not flash storages, our brains are complex and they're built in a way that just because someone tells you "don't do this", your brain won't suddenly flip a switch and change views on the matter. Over the time, that's something else.

I wouldn't be so critical of the haters gonna hate thing. With the internet you never know if it's people trying to help you out or censor you, for starters.

 

[Mesousa]

I feel it is a choice. I see nothing wrong with choosing to not change your skin tone or change it. But if you choose to skin tone, you should certainly do it carefully.

Lol I just think its a road you don't want to travel.

 

[TheYanger]

Not racist in the least. There's a huge difference between the stereotypical minstrel show blackface and someone using makeup to look like a character they enjoy. Sometimes this stuff just goes too far for the sake of outrage.

 

[Kathian]

Doesn't she realise these sorts of things are segregated due to the colour of her skin?
She probably should have a bit better understanding of what other white people 'blacked' up for (not just mockery but in the arts it was often so they didn't have to hire black actors) but the history of other white peoples intentions do not and should not define hers.

If people keep segregating and declaring what one race or another can do based on the colour of their skin there will be racism.

Shes trying to look like a character; that character has black skin; her not thinking twice about that is in my opinion a good thing. I don't even see how this is bad taste; shes trying to be someones spitting image - no other forms of exaggeration, nothing. If you remove historical perspective then theres nothing really here.

 

[Mononoke]

Being called a racist is like the scariest thing imaginable XD

If doing idiotic things ends in you getting called an idiot, then why shouldn't doing racist things end in you getting called a racist? Take the L, look in the mirror, fix yourself, and move on.

EDIT:

based on this...

this was the quote from her

"Everyone who makes something good gets haters, right. I see it as something special, my site also gets more likes"

Doesn't sound like she minds being ignorant. So I guess there was no reasoning with her to begin with.

 

[frankie_baby]

because the sentiment, while ideal, isn't at all realistic. also, i'm an not expert on 20th century germany, but i don't think the nazis started the classification of humans into races

Nothing wrong with living by our ideals

 

[DY_nasty]

I'll be honest, the constant mocking of an opposing view is growing tiring. I don't know, I always felt neogaf was moderated to avoid that kind of stuff overrunning a debate. It's disappointing when you realize a side you are trying to talk to is just half-listening to what you have to say until they find a good set up for a punchline. I guess this place isn't as well formed for discussion as I was hoping.

Or maybe its you and your adamant will to disregard clear points made by others over and over again. You don't even make it a goal to address certain parts of an argument so you can delve further into a poorly worded, half-baked rambling where you respond with something even more asinine than your previous post.

You don't see me outright laughing at others because they aren't comparing this woman's cosplay to people dressing up as Heath Ledger's Joker.

 

[Alucrid]

Really? Because the response I read from her was:



As for the nose, are you saying black people don't have wider noses? When I make a character in a game, I always make the nose wider to reflect the nose that I have. This is bad, how exactly?

this was the quote from her

"Everyone who makes something good gets haters, right. I see it as something special, my site also gets more likes"

 

[Camp Lo]

There is a long history surrounding how darker skin is deemed less beautiful than white skin. There is a whole system of oppression that makes it difficult for black models, actors, performers, etc. to get work simply because their appearance/race makes them less desirable than their white counterparts.

Dear white people: a race or skin color isn't something you can put on whenever it's convenient for you.

Quoting this again since no one has responded to me yet:

No it doesn't.

A race isn't a costume- just because she did it a little better than most doesn't make it any less problematic. (It still looks pretty inaccurate and bad.)

For a long time, I felt I couldn't get into cosplay because of my skin color because there were so few characters that I knew of that had darker skin. Eventually, I accepted that I can dress up as anyone who I want to be but the stigma is still there.

A white cosplayer darkening up their skin feels like a slap in the face to all the difficulties black cosplayers have to face in regards to racism.

She gets to slap on some bronzer and is applauded as "accurately" depicting this character.

While black cosplayers get comments like "XXX character isn't black. Why are you cosplaying them?" and "This is pretty good even though they're black".

+1

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

this was the quote from her

"Everyone who makes something good gets haters, right. I see it as something special, my site also gets more likes"

So she's willfully ignorant and just doesn't give a shit?

Ehhh, fuck her then. If she doesn't give a shit about why people would find it offensive, but understands it, she's an idiot.

 

[Two Words]

Lol I just think its a road you don't want to travel.

I don't know, I think my James Brown example worked. If you were a big fan really nailed the dancing, singing, and appearance of James Brown, why should it matter if it's a white guy darkening his skin? I'd feel like the guy must really be a big James Brown fan to do all that work and I would feel wrong to tell him his race determined he isn't allowed to give himself an authentic appearance of James Brown to go along with the dancing and singing.

 

[CrashSimonFaye]

Black Guy here, I don't find this racist. I could MAYBE see insensitive, but it's a nice get up so I don't agree with the outrage. She could have rocked it without the makeup though.

 

[Anustart]

There is a long history surrounding how darker skin is deemed less beautiful than white skin. There is a whole system of oppression that makes it difficult for black models, actors, performers, etc. to get work simply because their appearance/race makes them less desirable than their white counterparts.

Dear white people: a race or skin color isn't something you can put on whenever it's convenient for you.

Quoting this again since no one has responded to me yet:

What does this even have to do with this situation? The woman is portraying a character for the fun of it. Not donning the costume then going out trying to steal jobs or whatever it is you're talking about.

Black Guy here, I don't find this racist. I could MAYBE see insensitive, but it's a nice get up so I don't agree with the outrage. She could have rocked it without the makeup though.

Careful! Two Worlds got jumped for having a "rare" opinion for a black person.

 

[Kathian]

While black cosplayers get comments like "XXX character isn't black. Why are you cosplaying them?" and "This is pretty good even though they're black".

This is nothing to do with this girl.
Its the above comments that are ignorant; its not your fault but those comments are not hers either.

Whether you like her form of cosplay is also different from racism.

 

[John Bender]

This is ridiculous!
There is absolute NOTHING "racist" about this.

 

[flkraven]

As a cosplayer, you're not "honoring" anything, and if you want to double down on "intent" as an shield from criticism - despite being told that it is offensive - then you're an asshole.

But what specifically is offensive about this sort of cosplay. I genuinely want to know and understand. Is it the poorly made nose? Is it just simply the fact that she put makeup on her skin? And if that is the case, why is this offensive for those of us that are less informed or less educated on these issues?

I've read a ton about blackface, it's origins, and it's uses today, and have learned even more from the various links posted in this thread. However, I have failed to conclude that this falls in the same category as blackface. Whether the cosplayer new it would be considered offensive or not, I just don't understand how she is offending people.

 

[Two Words]

Or maybe its you and your adamant will to disregard clear points made by others over and over again. You don't even make it a goal to address certain parts of an argument so you can delve further into a poorly worded, half-baked rambling where you respond with something even more asinine than your previous post.

You don't see me outright laughing at others because they aren't comparing this woman's cosplay to people dressing up as Heath Ledger's Joker.

Why are you still misrepresenting a point I didn't make? I was strictly comparing it to portraying a specific portrayal. There is so many straw man arguments being made here. I'm taking arguments seriously here. Im trying to have a real discussion. Im not the one completely misrepresenting arguments or mocking others.

 

[joelseph]

I have to admit its pretty impressive cosplay.

Honest question, what is impressive about it? I'm only going off the pics in the article OP posted, the FB link didn't seem to have a better shot. I see she painted her face and is wearing clothes that resemble the characters outfit? Is there more to it?

 

[Corronchilejano]

I wasn't aware the girl had done nothing apart from change her skin colour for the costume

Change in skin tone, hairstyle, hair color, nose, lip color and added the bandana. So yes, not just the skin color.

 

[Camp Lo]

I don't know, I think my James Brown example worked. If you were a big fan really nailed the dancing, singing, and appearance of James Brown, why should it matter if it's a white guy darkening his skin? I'd feel like the guy must really be a big James Brown fan to do all that work and I would feel wrong to tell him his race determined he isn't allowed to give himself an authentic appearance of James Brown to go along with the dancing and singing.

Goddamn, dude. This whole post is bullshit but you keep asking why should it matter after constant examples of why are posted in this thread.

Just to preempt the "WHERES THE EXAMPLES" reply:

No it doesn't.

A race isn't a costume- just because she did it a little better than most doesn't make it any less problematic. (It still looks pretty inaccurate and bad.)

For a long time, I felt I couldn't get into cosplay because of my skin color because there were so few characters that I knew of that had darker skin. Eventually, I accepted that I can dress up as anyone who I want to be but the stigma is still there.

A white cosplayer darkening up their skin feels like a slap in the face to all the difficulties black cosplayers have to face in regards to racism.

She gets to slap on some bronzer and is applauded as "accurately" depicting this character.

While black cosplayers get comments like "XXX character isn't black. Why are you cosplaying them?" and "This is pretty good even though they're black".

 

[Courage]

Honest question, what is impressive about it? I'm only going off the pics in the article OP posted, the FB link didn't seem to have a better shot. I see she painted her face and is wearing clothes that resemble the characters outfit? Is there more to it?

I don't see how the nose resembles the character either.

 

[Mononoke]

Wow, fuck her. Haha

Basically sounds like she can't even be approached on the subject. Seems to me, even if you told her why it's offensive, and why it has a long history tied to it, she would probably say something like "it's my right", "quit being offended". Blah blah.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I dunno, she probably could of done without the makeup and no one would be talking about it.

But it isn't like she tried to be Trayvon Martin like that one guy did.

 

[kamorra]

because the sentiment, while ideal, isn't at all realistic. also, i'm an not expert on 20th century germany, but i don't think the nazis started the classification of humans into races

Well, the so called science is based on their work. Fact is that there are no human races. There is only one. But it's a good way to classify humans in good and bad ones I guess. It's disgusting and the faster we can get away from it the better. Try to talk about race in Germany and not get called out being a fucking racist scumbag. It's impossible and from my perspective rightly so.

 

[Two Words]

Goddamn, dude. This whole post is bullshit but you keep asking why should it matter after constant examples of why are posted in this thread.

I haven't heard why though. Just "Context". And when I explain how context shows it is okay, people ignore it or make mocking jokes.

 

[kehs]

But what specifically is offensive about this sort of cosplay. I genuinely want to know and understand. Is it the poorly made nose? Is it just simply the fact that she put makeup on her skin? And if that is the case, why is this offensive for those of us that are less informed or less educated on these issues?

I've read a ton about blackface, it's origins, and it's uses today, and have learned even more from the various links posted in this thread. However, I have failed to conclude that this falls in the same category as blackface. Whether the cosplayer new it would be considered offensive or not, I just don't understand how she is offending people.

The race of the character is being turned into prop alongside the rest of the costume.

 

[AkuMifune]

Basically sounds like she can't even be approached on the subject. Seems to me, even if you told her why it's offensive, and why it has a long history tied to it, she would probably say something like "it's my right", "quit being offended". Blah blah.

I can't imagine anyone taking such an ignorant stance in the face of such overwhelmingly calm discussion about historical context and the social stigma attached to white people painting their faces to pretend to be another race.