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[Veritigo_X]

I wonder if that's where the confusion came from with the mass graves found. Media outlets were reporting that it was an OSCE inspector that discovered it, but the OSCE said the inspector was not a member of the OSCE.

Was there any reason for OSCE not to have observers during this election? They seem to have a lot of negativity around them in Russia so I'm wondering if the pro-Russian separatists didn't allow them to observe.

 

[Resident_UA]

For anyone wondering who the international observers are:

Oh, the irony... It's good to see that Russia is uniting extreme right and extreme left political parties.

 

[Purkake4]

I wonder if that's where the confusion came from with the mass graves found. Media outlets were reporting that it was an OSCE inspector that discovered it, but the OSCE said the inspector was not a member of the OSCE.

Was there any reason for OSCE not to have observers during this election? They seem to have a lot of negativity around them in Russia so I'm wondering if the pro-Russian separatists didn't allow them to observe.

OSCE doesn't recognize the election as legitimate, why would they observe it?

 

[Veritigo_X]

OSCE doesn't recognize the election as legitimate, why would they observe it?

Good point. The act of them being their to observe the election would help legitimize it.


In other news, BBC is reporting that Poroshenko has ordered troops to move to some key eastern cities in anticipation for a rebel offensive. Troops are being moved to Mariupol, Berdyansk, Kharkiv, and the northern Luhansk region. As a reaction to the elections, Poroshenko is planning on scrapping the law that would give Donetsk and Luhansk special autonomous rights. He claims the Sunday elections violated the ceasefire agreement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29905014

 

[empty vessel]

So, even the Svoboda party didn't make it into the Ukrainian parliament (failing to reach the 5% threshold): http://www.cvk.gov.ua/pls/vnd2014/wp300ept001f01=910.html
Wonder what angle the Russian media is taking now..

That's precisely the complaint, isn't it? Svoboda has been exercising power in the Ukrainian government since February. They obtained those ministerial positions in the government by brute force. Hence the perfectly legitimate complaints about a fascist coup (which was strongly and shamelessly backed by the US and EU).

Whatever government results from the current elections, that government exercises no democratic legitimacy over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which did not take part in the elections after having rebelled against the violent seizure of power by Svoboda and the extremist right-wing in February.

Exactly. The thought of western media even coming CLOSE to as low as russian media is just laughable.

Until we start seeing common 300 WOMEN RAPED AND SHOT IN THE HEAD BY RUSSIANS we can reexamine the differences..

You should familiarize yourself with western media a bit better.

 

[Chumly]

You should familiarize yourself with western media a bit better.

Wow bringing up the babies in incubators from 1990........... One article. Wake me up when this is a daily to weekly occurrence in western media.

I understand your trying to bring this up as some type of smoking gun that western media is in collusion to brain wash the public but honestly its just laughable. Russian media does this all the time and there isn't such thing as independent media anymore. The Kremlin has cracked down on all of those that deviate from the approved government narrative. They are not comparable period.

 

[empty vessel]

Wow bringing up the babies in incubators from 1992........... One article. Wake me up when this is a daily to weekly occurrence in western media.

The subtle irony of my link being that that article was written in 2002 and intended as a warning to the media in the lead up to the 2003 Iraq invasion, which is now uncontroversially understood to have been abetted by rampant media propaganda about Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction.

And of course it's one article. I'm not writing a book about the history of Western media propaganda on neogaf. That book has already been written. The western media is saturated in propaganda. I see it daily, most recently as regards Ukraine and intended to engender anti-Russian sentiment (it has been a rousing success). If you don't see it, then I would encourage you to read up.

 

[Phantast2k]

Good point. The act of them being their to observe the election would help legitimize it.


In other news, BBC is reporting that Poroshenko has ordered troops to move to some key eastern cities in anticipation for a rebel offensive. Troops are being moved to Mariupol, Berdyansk, Kharkiv, and the northern Luhansk region. As a reaction to the elections, Poroshenko is planning on scrapping the law that would give Donetsk and Luhansk special autonomous rights. He claims the Sunday elections violated the ceasefire agreement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29905014

This Minsk ceasefire agreement has been leaked / known to public right after it was signed (by Russia too). In it, the Russian occupiers (rebels my ass) have agreed to hold communal elections according to Ukrainian law and not farce "republic" elections in return for this self-determination law which is now understandably at odds.
German source: http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/abkommen-minsk-103.html

Of course Russia recognized the farce elections despite signing the Minsk accords because Putin's Russia does regularly.

Vice dispatch on it: Elections Held in Separatist-Controlled Ukraine: Russian Roulette (Dispatch 83)

Among the violations were:
- people were given food / food discount cards for participating in elections (basically: "help us try to legitimize ourselves and we'll give you food for it"), but also promised pensions.
- there was nothing resembling normal, competing political parties, but rather secondary, or pre-determined loser candidates appearing out of thin air (just like the winning candidates who were themselves noones before Russia decided to withdraw their pawns á la Strelkov, Borodai et. al.)
- fake international observers (see previous posts and below)
- voter age started at 16
- voting process was overseen by armed people, inside and outside the voting facilities (also here)
- the ballots were simply xerox copies and the ballot boxes were not properly set up
- voting period has been extended numerous times
- instances of foreign citizens voting (e.g. the so called "Givi", an Abkhazian, who commands the attacks on the Donetsk airport) and people voting more than one time.

As already been posted, no OSCE presence whatsoever. Instead, Russia invented ASCE stuffed with right and left extrimists (some of which are straight up nazis, like the Hungarian representative who proposed to keep lists of jews) - hilarious if you look at it in contrast to the Ukrainian ellections in which none of the far right parties made it into the parliament...
And as already posted, the Russian "journalists" jumped on it like flies on a fresh pile of shit, especially them RT goons, but also the reputable Ria news which occasionally report unsubstantiated BS about "Ukrainian genocide":
https://twitter.com/GlasnostGone/status/528990431099781121/photo/1 (original already gone).
https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/529061264191160320/photo/1
http://en.ria.ru/politics/20141101/...ect-Polling-Stations-in-Donetsk-Ahead-of.html


Only RT's Graham Phillips - a "journalist" who occasionally takes up arms to fight the "Ukrainian fascists" (just check out his tweets) was in on the charade:

Reps of newly-formed #ASCE strongly criticise #OSCE, say OSCE lost its way, under influence of 'western propaganda'

https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/528631035966550016

Tomorrow's elections in #Donetsk will be overseen not by #OSCE, but by #ASCE- who give a press conference here today.

https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/528610378889326592

Also interesting to note: exit poll results with 2 decimal point precision (only 2 out of 3 though, lol):

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/528973110822047744
Adds up 100.1% btw.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

EV, how do you feel about the far right party in Ukraine getting much less support than far right parties in most western democracies? Or do you think it was a false flag or America's fault?

 

[empty vessel]

EV, how do you feel about the far right party in Ukraine getting much less support than far right parties in most western democracies? Or do you think it was a false flag or America's fault?

I think the Ukrainian far right (e.g., Svoboda, Privy Sector) is so far right that it isn't comparable to the more established far right in western democracies (e.g., in the US, UK, France). Western Ukraine in particular has a unique history in relation to WWII, and its right wing reflects that history. They overtly pay homage to nazis. Although it should be said that this homage to Ukraine's nazi collaboration was deliberately fostered after the so-called "orange revolution" by the US-backed Yushchenko government. And even Yanukovych encouraged those same forces, although for opposite reasons. He thought it would help his political prospects in elections by encouraging the extremists in the opposition. Instead, those forces violently overthrew his government.

See The Return of the Ukrainian Far Right by Swedish historian Pers Anders Rudling for more info. I would highly recommend reading this to anybody curious about why eastern Ukrainians would react negatively to what happened in Ukraine when Svoboda--a western Ukrainian political force--took power by force earlier this year. (It should be noted that this was written before recent Ukraine events and so is not written with any kind of political agenda in relation to the current conflict.)

 

[Resident_UA]

That's precisely the complaint, isn't it? Svoboda has been exercising power in the Ukrainian government since February. They obtained those ministerial positions in the government by brute force. Hence the perfectly legitimate complaints about a fascist coup (which was strongly and shamelessly backed by the US and EU).

What the fuck?!!! Look I'g glad you are back in this thread and maybe if you actually read you will learn something. But what you are saying is absolutely not true. You don't know ANYTHING about Ukrainian politics so STOP pretending. These party names don't mean anything to you whatsoever, you just keep making up bullshit. And before you start posting links to your "sources" I will let you know that I was in Ukraine recently. I know pretty much everything there is to know about Svoboda. It is hated in my hometown in Western Ukraine (Lviv). Everyone knows is has strong ties to Lviv mafia. Somehow I still feel a bit sorry for them, because there are good people there and people like you just keep making up bullshit that they know NOTHING about.

Also where are you from? Why are you doing this?

EDIT: Below is a link to their proposed policy changes. Just use google translate. There's a lot of stupid shit there (making abortion illegal, legalizing guns, tougher immigration policy etc), but nothing even close to stuff you and your "sources" keep making up.

http://www.svoboda.org.ua/pro_partiyu/prohrama/

 

[Resident_UA]

See The Return of the Ukrainian Far Right by Swedish historian Pers Anders Rudling for more info. I would highly recommend reading this to anybody curious about why eastern Ukrainians would react negatively to what happened in Ukraine when Svoboda--a western Ukrainian political force--took power by force earlier this year. (It should be noted that this was written before recent Ukraine events and so is not written with any kind of political agenda in relation to the current conflict.)

Here's a quote from a guy you are quoting. I think even he acknowledges that two things have nothing in common. I still disagree with him on most points, but this illustrates how you just pick random articles from very much unknown authors to push an agenda. Why?!!

This effect should be resisted. Refuting propaganda is important, but it has also been done extensively and it is not enough: if we only reiterate the simple facts that Ukraine is not a country of anti-Semites, that the Maidan revolution was not run by fascists, and that Russia has its own problems with anti-Semitism and right-wing extremism, we are still entangled in the insidious snares of propaganda, which stifle searching reflection and honest, productive debate.

Also how is the quote below acceptable? If something like this was written about figure that Israel released this would turn into an international scandal:

Under his tenure, the SBU also produced an official number of 10,063,000 million victims of the 1932-33 famine in the Ukrainian SSR, a tripling of the consensus number by historical demographers. Such manipulation of what are terrible figures anyhow is not a minor issue but reflects a long-standing tendency to “compete” with the Holocaust.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/155618

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

EV going with quotes from someone breaking out arguments from new age Holocaust "I just question the 'official' numbers" deniers to try to make the Holodomor less severe. Holy shit, does the Kremlin actually pay for this?

 

[Outcome]

BBC News: Two teenagers died and four were wounded when an artillery shell hit a school playing field

Rebels say its Ukraine forces, Ukraine forces say its rebels, rebels say its Ukraine forces, Ukraine forces say its rebels, I say fuck em both.

 

[Veritigo_X]

BBC News: Two teenagers died and four were wounded when an artillery shell hit a school playing field

Rebels say its Ukraine forces, Ukraine forces say its rebels, rebels say its Ukraine forces, Ukraine forces say its rebels, I say fuck em both.

Here is where the school is located: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.0403126,37.7319318,390m/data=!3m1!1e3

You can see two football fields on the map, but it's not known which field was hit. I read one site say it was the more south-eastern field, but they didn't have any source to back it up. Note the close proximity to the Donetsk Airport, which has seen a lot of fighting over the course of the conflict.

 

[empty vessel]

EDIT: Below is a link to their proposed policy changes. Just use google translate. There's a lot of stupid shit there (making abortion illegal, legalizing guns, tougher immigration policy etc), but nothing even close to stuff you and your "sources" keep making up.

I know you are a nationalist Ukrainian for whom fascism has been normalized, but Svoboda is the same party about which the conservative European Union just two years ago wrote:

The European Parliament ... s concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada; recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

EV going with quotes from someone breaking out arguments from new age Holocaust "I just question the 'official' numbers" deniers to try to make the Holodomor less severe. Holy shit, does the Kremlin actually pay for this?

Just to be clear, you are comparing Per Anders Rudling to a Holocaust denier?

 

[antonz]

Here is where the school is located: https://www.google.com/maps/@48.0403126,37.7319318,390m/data=!3m1!1e3

You can see two football fields on the map, but it's not known which field was hit. I read one site say it was the more south-eastern field, but they didn't have any source to back it up. Note the close proximity to the Donetsk Airport, which has seen a lot of fighting over the course of the conflict.

The rebels are claiming the rocket came from Pisky to the west. Problem with that is all evidence at the scene including rocket entry point etc. indicate it came from the East which is Rebel held territory In particular the only city in the firing arc would be Makiivka

 

[Simplet]

That's precisely the complaint, isn't it? Svoboda has been exercising power in the Ukrainian government since February. They obtained those ministerial positions in the government by brute force. Hence the perfectly legitimate complaints about a fascist coup (which was strongly and shamelessly backed by the US and EU).

Whatever government results from the current elections, that government exercises no democratic legitimacy over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, which did not take part in the elections after having rebelled against the violent seizure of power by Svoboda and the extremist right-wing in February.

What a subtle and totally not obvious transition between "obtained [some] ministerial positions" in the first paragraph and "violent seizure of power" three lines later.

The subtle irony of my link being that that article was written in 2002 and intended as a warning to the media in the lead up to the 2003 Iraq invasion, which is now uncontroversially understood to have been abetted by rampant media propaganda about Iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction.

And of course it's one article. I'm not writing a book about the history of Western media propaganda on neogaf. That book has already been written. The western media is saturated in propaganda. I see it daily, most recently as regards Ukraine and intended to engender anti-Russian sentiment (it has been a rousing success). If you don't see it, then I would encourage you to read up.

Yes, bringing up a single article from 25 years ago and making some vague generalization about the coverage of the irak war must have tired you, you're not here to write a book after all, just to "educate" us. By the way, you realize you only mention the american coverage of the irak war right? You wouldn't happen to have some info about the French coverage, or in the Scandinavian countries, Australia, Canada, Germany, Japan....? We would love to see that western media conspiracy in action, and all of that happened barely a decade and some change ago, so still pretty fresh eh?

Anythink about that anti-russian campaign? It'd be really impressive if you could top stories about crucifying little children and mass murder-rapes.

 

[Outcome]

The rebels are claiming the rocket came from Pisky to the west. Problem with that is all evidence at the scene including rocket entry point etc. indicate it came from the East which is Rebel held territory In particular the only city in the firing arc would be Makiivka

Can you please provide a link to at least one of that evidence? Or to an interview with someone who's been at the scene and said about it?

 

[Engell]

Can you please provide a link to at least one of that evidence? Or to an interview with someone who's been at the scene and said about it?

this maybe?
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/11/rocket-that-hit-school-no63-did-not.html

 

[Jackpot]

Svoboda is the same party about which the conservative European Union just two years ago wrote:



http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P7-TA-2012-0507+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

That comment's on par with condemnation of France's NF or UK's BNP. Parties that got more of the national vote than Svoboda.

This is a thread for news and as soon as you returned from your previous ban you've only posted the same derailing nonsense as before.

 

[Simplet]

That comment's on par with condemnation of France's NF or UK's BNP. Parties that got more of the national vote than Svoboda.

This is a thread for news and as soon as you returned from your previous ban you've only posted the same derailing nonsense as before.

He's literally posting the exact same links all over again.

 

[funkypie]

Once Putin and his cold war era buddies all eventually die off we might start to see a more progressive Russia. I feel sorry for russias, they've always been ruled by an iron fist and know no better.

 

[soxinthebox]

32 tanks cross from Russia into Ukraine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/07/ukraine-russian-military-column-east

Nothing to worry about right?

 

[Veritigo_X]

32 tanks cross from Russia into Ukraine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/07/ukraine-russian-military-column-east

Nothing to worry about right?

BBC is reporting 30 trucks along with the 32 tanks. They're saying (along with your Guardian article) that these trucks are carrying ammunition and soldiers. The Guardian article also mentions 16 artillery systems (not mentioned in the BBC article).

So the reports right now are:

32 Tanks
30 Trucks carrying troops and ammunition
16 Artillery

We'll probably find out more in the next couple hours since the news just broke.

 

[Outcome]

this maybe?
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/11/rocket-that-hit-school-no63-did-not.html

I can believe that Putin's guys went to the territory controlled by Ukraine unnoticed and launched a few rockets to the school. But doing this from their one territory then letting the whole scene with evident (allegedly in the article above) proofs being documented by press... it's just to stupid to be true.

Also a more believable version is that Putin payed to Ukraine guys to launch the rocket. Really. I admit that Putin can gain from this more than Ukraine, so it is likely is managed by him, but I can hardly believe that it is done in such a stupid way. Also, russian officials demanded an international investigation to be conducted regarding this indecent. Don't you think that it is too reckless to be true doing it after you messed up so hard?

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Once Putin and his cold war era buddies all eventually die off we might start to see a more progressive Russia. I feel sorry for russias, they've always been ruled by an iron fist and know no better.

I actually don't know what the next generation of Russian politicians looks like, but I can't imagine they'll be that progressive considering the environment they grew up in.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I can believe that Putin's guys went to the territory controlled by Ukraine unnoticed and launched a few rockets to the school. But doing this from their one territory then letting the whole scene with evident (allegedly in the article above) proofs being documented by press... it's just to stupid to be true.

Also a more believable version is that Putin payed to Ukraine guys to launch the rocket. Really. I admit that Putin can gain from this more than Ukraine, so it is likely is managed by him, but I can hardly believe that it is done in such a stupid way. Also, russian officials demanded an international investigation to be conducted regarding this indecent. Don't you think that it is too reckless to be true doing it after you messed up so hard?

These are people that shot down a civilian airliner leaving even more evidence pointing to them than this case. They don't exactly seem like the smartest people.

 

[Outcome]

BBC is reporting 30 trucks along with the 32 tanks. They're saying (along with your Guardian article) that these trucks are carrying ammunition and soldiers. The Guardian article also mentions 16 artillery systems (not mentioned in the BBC article).

So the reports right now are:

32 Tanks
30 Trucks carrying troops and ammunition
16 Artillery

We'll probably find out more in the next couple hours since the news just broke.

There's a big difference between "BBC reporting something happening" and "BBC reporting that Ukraine says that Russian doing something". In this particular case it is the latter. There's a few hundreds OSCE observers on Ukraine, rebels and russian side. They never confirmed any of hundreds Ukraine outcries about Russian invading Ukraine. I do not really believe that they or UN will confirm it this time.

These are people that shot down a civilian airliner leaving even more evidence pointing to them than this case. They don't exactly seem like the smartest people.

So, there is official published results of the international investigation concluding that rebels (putin) hit the plane? Can you give me a link, I must've missed it.

 

[archnemesis]

There's a big difference between "BBC reporting something happening" and "BBC reporting that Ukraine says that Russian doing something". In this particular case it is the latter. There's a few hundreds OSCE observers on Ukraine, rebels and russian side. They never confirmed any of hundreds Ukraine outcries about Russian invading Ukraine. I do not really believe that they or UN will confirm it this time.

According to Sky News, "NATO sources have confirmed the Russian military invasion of Ukraine". If that's true then we will get a more detailed report soon.

 

[besada]

Two reminders:

1) This is a news thread. It's here to keep people abreast of what's going on. It loses that ability if every page is filled with posters screaming at each other about non-news related subjects.

2) Keep it civil. If you can't engage with other posters without losing your cool, go do something else. If someone posts something that enrages you and you start insulting people, you're the one who's going to catch the ban.

 

[Veritigo_X]

There's a big difference between "BBC reporting something happening" and "BBC reporting that Ukraine says that Russian doing something". In this particular case it is the latter. There's a few hundreds OSCE observers on Ukraine, rebels and russian side. They never confirmed any of hundreds Ukraine outcries about Russian invading Ukraine. I do not really believe that they or UN will confirm it this time.

The news just broke a couple hours ago. We'll get more details that either confirm or deny these reports. I said this in my post.

So, there is official published results of the international investigation concluding that rebels (putin) hit the plane? Can you give me a link, I must've missed it.

I don't want to get in an argument about "who did it", but here's the evidence against the rebels:

The plane was traveling west to east over a rebel controlled area and hit in the cockpit, suggesting the "high velocity object" the plane was hit with came from the east.
They had been shooting down planes the weeks leading up to MH17.
They bragged about shooting down a Ukrainian plane that day on social media before deleting it once news starting coming out.
They blocked Dutch investigators from viewing the crash site.
They removed pieces from the plane, destroying evidence in the process.

The investigation is still ongoing (they just released the preliminary report in September) but only one party has so much evidence against them that it is undeniable to anyone with eyes. I'm sure we'll get a more detailed report once they collect all the evidence. They're still working to get to some wreckage to this day.

Here's the preliminary report by the Dutch Safety Board if you haven't read it yet: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/upload...3acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

 

[Outcome]

According to Sky News, "NATO sources have confirmed the Russian military invasion of Ukraine". If that's true then we will get a more detailed report soon.

I never knew that sky.com is a troll site. There is two embedded videos on this page showing tanks on the road like they are russian tanks invading Ukraine, but when you click on these videos you only see reports saying that someone says something. Why to put these fake pictures in the first place?

NATO is even worse, they do not even bother about fake pictures they just say that they know something. They have dozens of top-notch satellites capable of making HD videos of the Earth close enough to see people not taking about more than 30 tanks! Why they do not show anything? Why do they just say that they know something?

 

[ksan]

I never knew that sky.com is a troll site. There is two embedded videos on this page showing tanks on the road like they are russian tanks invading Ukraine, but when you click on these videos you only see reports saying that someone says something. Why to put these fake pictures in the first place?

NATO is even worse, they do not even bother about fake pictures they just say that they know something. They have dozens of top-notch satellites capable of making HD videos of the Earth close enough to see people not taking about more than 30 tanks! Why they do not show anything? Why do they just say that they know something?

Maybe because it's military intelligence?

 

[Resident_UA]

I know you are a nationalist Ukrainian for whom fascism has been normalized, but Svoboda is the same party about which the conservative European Union just two years ago wrote:

I live in the US and I am a liberal. How is fascism normalized for me? What are you accusing me of? Stop assuming things about people.

Plus, how does EU statement about UKRAINIAN political party PROVE anything? Look at all their statements about Russia. Just because they are in EU does not mean that they know anything about Ukrainian politics.

EDIT: I know this is still a minor derailment, but in this case EV actually implied that I'm a fascist, so I had to respond...

 

[Outcome]

I don't want to get in an argument about "who did it", but here's the evidence against the rebels:

The plane was traveling west to east over a rebel controlled area and hit in the cockpit, suggesting the "high velocity object" the plane was hit with came from the east.
They had been shooting down planes the weeks leading up to MH17.
They bragged about shooting down a Ukrainian plane that day on social media before deleting it once news starting coming out.
They blocked Dutch investigators from viewing the crash site.
They removed pieces from the plane, destroying evidence in the process.

The investigation is still ongoing (they just released the preliminary report in September) but only one party has so much evidence against them that it is undeniable to anyone with eyes. I'm sure we'll get a more detailed report once they collect all the evidence. They're still working to get to some wreckage to this day.

Here's the preliminary report by the Dutch Safety Board if you haven't read it yet: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/upload...3acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

That all can be pretty convincing, I admit. But there is something that is more convincing in investigating crimes and that is a motive. In other words, in most times the one who did it - is the one who gains the most from it. What did rebels gain from it? A chance to get hit by US and NATO armies I'd say, a very very bad motive. What did Ukraine gain from it? A whole world support and a whole world hate to the rebels. That's something substantial.

Now, from this report:

Damage observed on the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft appears to indicate that there were impacts from a large number of high-energy objects from outside the aircraft.

1) These objects can be originated from a big ground-to-air rocket. This rockets do not hit the targets directly, rather they explode when they approach it and hit it with multiple pieces. Ukraine had, has and will have such rockets. Rebels presumably had it.

2) From a machine gun from a plane or from air-to-air rocket (Р-27, Р-73) from a plane. Russians provided radar data of a few jets registered at the time of hit and on the plane's altitude (may be fake, who knows). Ukraine had and has such jet planes. Rebels didn't and don't have it.

So, basically 1) could be done by both Ukraine and Rebels (the version that they wanted to hit a military jet and hit a civil plane by mistake). 2) can be done only by Ukraine.

Now, the one point against 1). This rocket from the "Buk" is kinda hard to not notice it. Here's an articale about it containing the video of firing rockets from this anti-air-complex "Buk": http://sergeytsarkov.livejournal.com/36062.html. As can be seen here this is a hell of a noticeable rocket. When it hits an air plane as big as 777 it will be is a triple-hell of a noticeable event. So, why not anyone saw it? Why not anyone of hundreds of satellites registered it? The trace of the hit will be floating on that altitude for quite some time. But, no one saw anything, even though the weather was pretty clear. And, it may be believable in case of an open ocean thousands miles from land. But, not to notice it in the middle of the place where a civil war is going? There is a lot of villages at that place at least someone had to see something.

So, my point is that it is not that clear who actual hit that plane.

 

[Resident_UA]

The news just broke a couple hours ago. We'll get more details that either confirm or deny these reports. I said this in my post.

I never knew that sky.com is a troll site. There is two embedded videos on this page showing tanks on the road like they are russian tanks invading Ukraine, but when you click on these videos you only see reports saying that someone says something. Why to put these fake pictures in the first place?

NATO is even worse, they do not even bother about fake pictures they just say that they know something. They have dozens of top-notch satellites capable of making HD videos of the Earth close enough to see people not taking about more than 30 tanks! Why they do not show anything? Why do they just say that they know something?

I can't believe it, but I might actually agree with Outcome here. There's been plenty of footage that surfaced on Ukrainian social networks of Russian tanks rolling into Ukrainian cities over the past few months. Russia never stopped supplying separatists with weapons. The fact that Sky and BBC are talking about the most recent 32 tanks now probably just means that it is a slow news day

 

[Resident_UA]

That all can be pretty convincing, I admit. But there is something that is more convincing in investigating crimes and that is a motive.

Separatists had no planes. Why Ukraine would be shooting down a plane?

Separatists already shot down two planes before that. Why it is such a stretch of logic for you that they would shoot down third?

So there are two options.

1. It's a HUGE conspiracy with involvement of EU, US and everyone else with a radar. (oh and a hacker who hacked Strelok's VK webpage )
2. Separatists shot down 3rd plane.

Which one is more likely?

EDIT: And PLEASE don't believe what Russia says. Their official theory released by department of defense said that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian jet fighter that CAN'T even fly/shoot that high! If their OFFICIAL response is that ridiculous you really can't trust any of it.

 

[Surfheart]

The western media is saturated in propaganda. I see it daily, most recently as regards Ukraine and intended to engender anti-Russian sentiment (it has been a rousing success). If you don't see it, then I would encourage you to read up.

I think Putin, by annexing Crimea and sending troops, weapons, ammunition and armor into Eastern Ukraine has achieved that quite easily on his own

 

[Engell]

2) From a machine gun from a plane or from air-to-air rocket (Р-27, Р-73) .

Please understand that this is impossible, the holes cannot be from machine gun fire since they are different shapes and sizes(as seen on photos), so unless the guy flying had ten different guns with him open his cockpit and play Texan with an afternoon to burn. And then in the end stop to finish it of with some explosives, due to the fact that the machine gun fire wouldn't be enough to break up the plane.
Also the air to air missiles you mention do not inflict this kind of damage since it is not a fragmentation type warhead. and as we all know all the photos show fragmentation damage.(also P73 is only 3kg warhead, and designed to seek and destroy the engine)

And what is more likely? some idiot with a buk(that have been proved to be in the area). or the elaborate wild ideas coming out of the Kremlin??

Must be fun to live in denial

 

[funkypie]

I actually don't know what the next generation of Russian politicians looks like, but I can't imagine they'll be that progressive considering the environment they grew up in.

The previous Russian president seemed OK when he wasn't being controlled by Putin. He was the first none military one to.

Edit this outcome guy is hurting my brain.

 

[reckless]

That all can be pretty convincing, I admit. But there is something that is more convincing in investigating crimes and that is a motive. In other words, in most times the one who did it - is the one who gains the most from it. What did rebels gain from it? A chance to get hit by US and NATO armies I'd say, a very very bad motive. What did Ukraine gain from it? A whole world support and a whole world hate to the rebels. That's something substantial.

Now, from this report:

1) These objects can be originated from a big ground-to-air rocket. This rockets do not hit the targets directly, rather they explode when they approach it and hit it with multiple pieces. Ukraine had, has and will have such rockets. Rebels presumably had it.

2) From a machine gun from a plane or from air-to-air rocket (Р-27, Р-73) from a plane. Russians provided radar data of a few jets registered at the time of hit and on the plane's altitude (may be fake, who knows). Ukraine had and has such jet planes. Rebels didn't and don't have it.

So, basically 1) could be done by both Ukraine and Rebels (the version that they wanted to hit a military jet and hit a civil plane by mistake). 2) can be done only by Ukraine.

Now, the one point against 1). This rocket from the "Buk" is kinda hard to not notice it. Here's an articale about it containing the video of firing rockets from this anti-air-complex "Buk": http://sergeytsarkov.livejournal.com/36062.html. As can be seen here this is a hell of a noticeable rocket. When it hits an air plane as big as 777 it will be is a triple-hell of a noticeable event. So, why not anyone saw it? Why not anyone of hundreds of satellites registered it? The trace of the hit will be floating on that altitude for quite some time. But, no one saw anything, even though the weather was pretty clear. And, it may be believable in case of an open ocean thousands miles from land. But, not to notice it in the middle of the place where a civil war is going? There is a lot of villages at that place at least someone had to see something.

So, my point is that it is not that clear who actual hit that plane.

Those planes are way too high for machine and/or manpads. It had to have been either a plane or a large AA system like a BUK. It was not a plane due to the type of damage done to the airliner so that leaves large AA systems like BUKs.

Satelites did pick up a rocket signature from rebel held territory, and the only witnesses would be the "rebels" or the Russians and they are going to say anything.

The "rebels" had a BUK very close, the Buk was missing rockets after the plane was shot down it was also moved back into Russia to hide it, the rebel commander bragged about shooting down a ukrainian plane that did not exist, but his story matches up perfectly with the airliner, and it was quickly deleted. The "rebels " grabbed as much evidence as they could from the crash site and stopped observers from going to it. Russia made up amazingly dumb stories like the Ukrainian army was trying to shoot down putin's plane or a Ukrainian bomber shot down the plane.

Overall, the rebels shot it down its pretty obvious.

 

[kess]

...

For anyone wondering who the international observers are:

VICE published an article about these observers here. It's worth reading even if you know about the ultranationalism of Jobbik, Ataka, and the Front National.

Some excerpts:

Marton Gyongyosi

2012 far-right Hungarian politician, Marton Gyongyosi, stirred up controversy when he echoed policies implemented in his country under Nazi occupation by calling on the government to draw up a list of Jews that he claimed "posed a national security threat."

At a rally protesting the hosting of the World Jewish Congress in Budapest Gyongyosi told gathered supporters that "Hungary is under Zionist occupation"

Magdalena Tasheva

A member of parliament for the Bulgarian ultranationalist party Ataka, Magdalena Tasheva is also the editor of the party's newspaper, Vestnik Ataka, and has printed numerous articles calling Muslim refugees in the country - mainly Syrians - "cannibals" and "Islamic fundamentalists."

Speaking on the program Tasheva labelled immigrants "terrorist scum" and compared refugees to savages and monkeys.

The party's leader, Siderov, reportedly personally gifted Putin an Ataka badge, plaque of the parliament and a copy of his book Fundamental Bulgarianism for his 60th birthday

...

The party also demands the return of the ethnic majority Bulgarian regions in Serbia, Dimitrovgrad and Bosilegrad.

Ewald Stadler

In 2006 Stadler delivered a long tirade in Austria's parliament against Turkish immigrants. In the speech he railed against the "illiterates of Anatolia" criticized "romantic tolerance of religious freedom" and suggested that Turks should get "on the Orient Express and go back to Istanbul." A video of the rant was posted on the US white supremacist website "Stormfront" where it received praise from the group's supporters.

 

[Resident_UA]

...



VICE published an article about these observers here. It's worth reading even if you know about the ultranationalism of Jobbik, Ataka, and the Front National.

Some excerpts:

Where's empty vessel when you need him?

He hates fascism so I'm sure he would be really pissed that these "observers" with fascist tendencies were allowed to monitor the elections on the territory that was just "freed" from "fascist" Ukraine.

 

[kess]

Srsa Trikovic is probably the most disturbing name on that list . He was blocked entry into Canada a couple of years ago and is a close associate of anti-Muslim Robert Spencer. There's a trail of bad karma following the guy and some sketchy accusations about his involvement in the Republika Srpska. He is also a fervent denier of the Srebrenica genocide.

And here's what he thinks about the Jews. The source:

In addition, since the late 1800’s the Jews have had a disproportionate impact on a host of intellectual trends and political movements which have fundamentally altered the civilization of Europe and its overseas offspring in a manner deeply detrimental to the family, nation, culture, racial solidarity, social coherence, tradition, morality and faith. Spontaneously or deliberately, those ideas and movements — Marxism (including neoconservatism as the bastard child of Trotskyism), Freudianism, Frankfurt School cultural criticism, Bosnian anthropology, etc. — have eroded “the West” to the point where its demographic and cultural survival is uncertain. The erosion is continuing, allegedly in the name of propositional principles and universal values, and it is pursued with escalating ferocity.’

 

[Jackpot]

...



VICE published an article about these observers here. It's worth reading even if you know about the ultranationalism of Jobbik, Ataka, and the Front National.

Some excerpts:

bu.. but Russia said they were fighting against fascism! Why would they arrange a group of far-right ultra-nationalists to impartially observe a vote in a separatist state?

 

[besada]

Where's empty vessel when you need him?

He hates fascism so I'm sure he would be really pissed that these "observers" with fascist tendencies were allowed to monitor the elections on the territory that was just "freed" from "fascist" Ukraine.

If you have issues with another poster, send them a PM. I thought I made it clear that this was a thread for news, not a thread for you and EV to engage in back and forth assholery. If that wasn't clear from my last post, I hope it is now, because there aren't going to be any more warnings on the subject.

As always, if you have questions or concerns about moderation, feel free to PM the mod of your choice.

 

[Phantast2k]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq1iBchjVFk
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/af15...ine-rebels-seen-moving-large-military-convoys

SNIZHNE, Ukraine (AP) — Associated Press reporters saw more than 80 unmarked military vehicles on the move Saturday in rebel-controlled areas of eastern Ukraine, indicating that intensified hostilities may lie ahead.
Three separate columns were seen — one near the main separatist stronghold of Donetsk and two outside the town of Snizhne, 80 kilometers (50 miles) further east. The vehicles were mainly transportation trucks, some of them carrying small- and large-caliber artillery systems, and at least one armored personnel carrier. Several of the trucks were seen to be carrying troops.
Ukrainian officials said this week that they believe rebel forces have received substantial consignments of weaponry and manpower from Russia. Moscow denies such claims.
It was not immediately possible to establish the provenance of the vehicles seen Saturday. Separatists have always insisted they are armed with equipment captured from Ukrainian forces, but the sheer scale and quality of their armaments have strained the credibility of that claim.
Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council spokesman Volodymyr Polevoy said rebel reinforcements have also been observed moving toward front-line locations around 150 kilometers (95 miles) northeast of Donetsk, in the Luhansk region.
Polevoy said rebel authorities are boosting their ranks by forcibly mobilizing residents in a number of occupied towns.
Despite a cease-fire being reached in September, Ukrainian and rebel troops engage on a regular basis, with some of the heaviest fighting focused on Donetsk airport.
One government paratrooper was killed Friday by a sniper at the airport, military authorities said in a statement. Polevoy said two other Ukrainian troops were killed on the same day, but gave no details.
The statement added that Ukrainian positions came under artillery fire in several towns and villages east of Donetsk, including Debaltseve, which has begun to be increasingly encircled by rebel forces.
Earlier this week, Ukraine's president Petro Poroshenko said that additional troops were being deployed to the east to defend cities still under government control against possible incursions. That followed rebel statements of intent to expand the amount of territory under their control.
The truce signed in the Belarusian capital, Minsk, by Russia, Ukraine and the separatists stipulates the pullback of heavy weaponry.
In Beijing, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov met Saturday on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation conference for what was expected to be a discussion about the unrest in eastern Ukraine.
Asked if Russia still respects the legitimacy of the cease-fire agreement, Lavrov said it is for the "rebels and the government" of Ukraine to finalize a disengagement line — a process that he said is continuing.
Tensions between Ukraine and Russia rose further after the rebels held an election last Sunday that Ukraine and the West denounced as a violation of the truce. Russia, however, quickly lent its support to the vote.

How the fuck can the media still refer to them as rebels?

/new VICE dispatch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtk5_OF54hY

- the museum curator is talking bs, at least in regards to language ("would no longer be allowed to speak Russian").
- 26th of may is when Ukraine retook the airport.
Btw. this was Donetsk in April before the sudden surge in separatism and influx of "green men": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnoTOVAxpI
Now I can't imagine that any of these people remained in the city..

 

[Phantast2k]

Wtf, public tribunals in Donetsk handing out death sentences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjW_Bn-COVs

Original video (incl. a trailer...):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8UQ76dSLuI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Ymaq4m1zY (life or death voting apparently around 30-40 mins).

That psycho also said this:

To that end, Mozgovoi appeared to use the recent rape trial to deliver an unexpected edict on appropriate female behavior, threatening to arrest women found spending time in restaurants and night clubs.

"You want to stay honest and faithful to your husband. Sit at home, embroider," he said, ignoring audible gasps from the crowd. "Stay at home, bake pies, and celebrate March 8 [International Women's Day]."

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-separatist-courts-death-sentences/26674118.html
At least he apparently backpedaled as far as his threat to arrest indecent women goes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU5_DVGQ4wk

Also Russia backpedaled on the recognition of the farcical elections (the sanctions must be hurting):
http://en.ria.ru/politics/20141107/...ections-in-Donetsk-Luhansk-Does-Not-Mean.html

Russia Respects, But Does Not Necessarily Recognize Donetsk, Luhansk Elections

And Putin thinks the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was O AK:

Russian president says he sees nothing wrong with treaty with Nazi Germany that led to the carve-up of Poland - and blames Britain for destroying any chance of an anti-fascist front

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ons-pact-with-Adolf-Hitlers-Nazi-Germany.html

/OSCE saying the kids in Donetsk were killed by fire from NW, which would point to Ukraine held positions (airport):

All craters seen by the SMM were about one metre in diameter and the depths varied. The SMM’s analysis indicates that at least four of the craters were caused by 120mm mortar shells and two others were the result of 122mm artillery rounds. In the SMM’s assessment, all of these were fired from a location north-west of the football pitch and were the result of high-angle fire.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/126474

 

[Yamauchi]

The Pentagon states that it has no evidence of Kiev's claims regarding Russian movements into Ukraine: http://www.ibtimes.com/pentagon-says-no-evidence-alleged-russian-military-incursion-ukraine-1721106