Finnish parliament voted yes for equal marriage

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SkeptiMism

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Yay!

The result was 105-92.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_parliament_approves_same-sex_marriage/7657759

Yesterday they talked about it in the parliament (lasted for like 5 hours) and today they voted on it. This doesn't yet mean that the law will pass 100% surely, but in practice it's almost completely sure. Basically, last week the law committee had decided to vote against it (by 9-8) but the ones in the law committee for equal marriage had made an objection so the parliament voted on whether to accept the law committee's decision or the objection. Now it will go to another committee (that will be more for it) and they will again make a decision about it (and extremely likely an objection) and then the parliament will again vote on it. At that point they'll very likely vote yes, so at that point it's finally completely over in the parliament and only the exact laws will have to be made/changed.

Counter arguments from yesterday's talk were:
- "It's not about equality, it's just that marriage is between man and woman."
- "It's not about equality because the people for 'equal' marriage aren't driving forth polyamorous marriage."
- "It's not about equality because the UN declaration of human rights doesn't define same sex marriage as a human right"
- "It's not about equality because because in 2002 when the Finnish parliament voted on registered relationship (the previous "marriage" for gays, but lacked things like adoption and being able to take your spouse's surname), it was decided that it was a choice of consciousness to vote however you wanted."
- "Biology decided marriage is between man and woman", and relating to this one: ""We can make a law for sun to circle moon but we can't make it happen in reality, the same way we can't break the rules of biology."
- "Bible and God say marriage is between and woman."
- "What will all the sexual minorities demand next? Gay men dressing as women making demands about dressing and shower areas of public places (such as swimming baths) because of feeling uncomfortable having to be with the sex they're attracted to."
- "It will corrupt marriage."
- "It will affect the church what they can teach."
- "Why aren't the people for 'equal' marriage taking into consideration how people against it feel: to a straight married couple accepting gay marriage as a law would be like getting their head beaten with a mace."
- "Child has a right to mom and dad" (ignoring all the research, expert testimonies and pretty much every organization for children's rights that are pro equal marriage)
- "This should be about children's rights, not about the selfish demands of grown ups."
- "We need to know how it affects economy before making decisions like this."
- "If I died and my child got adopted, I would never accept a gay couple having him."

Yes, all of those were really heard, most of them multiple times. Might've even forgotten some gems.

To be fair though to the parliament, there were also a lot of beautiful, top notch speeches for equal marriage.
 
"Why aren't the people for 'equal' marriage taking into consideration how people against it feel?"
Click to expand...

"OK, I disagree with you that this is an issue, but..."

"To a straight married couple accepting gay marriage as a law would be like getting their head beaten with a mace."
Click to expand...

"..."
 
SkeptiMism said:
- "What will all the sexual minorities demand next? Gay men dressing as women making demands about dressing and shower areas of public places (such as swimming baths) because of feeling uncomfortable having to be with the sex they're attracted to."
Click to expand...

I promise that I'll never demand that :P
 
Some of those arguments are absolutely hilarious.

Yes, some people in love that doesn't affect your life in any way whatsoever is exactly like being smacked over the head with a mace. Definitely.
 
Immediately after the law was passed, half of my colleagues married their dogs and other half ripped off their work clothes, revealing Tom Of Finland styled leather clothes and started fucking each other (and me) like there was no tomorrow.

Crying children watched this while they were abandoned and 4 horseman started riding toward us from the sky, just as opposition of this law predicted.
 
PetriP-TNT said:
Immediately after the law was passed, half of my colleagues married their dogs and other half ripped off their work clothes, revealing Tom Of Finland styled leather clothes and started fucking each other (and me) like there was no tomorrow.

Crying children watched this while they were abandoned and 4 horseman started riding toward us from the sky, just as opposition of this law predicted.
Click to expand...
It was the same over here. 'Cept I'm living a bit more north so we married our polar bears. A few had to settle for penguins tho' because people ran out of polar bears :(
 
PetriP-TNT said:
Immediately after the law was passed, half of my colleagues married their dogs and other half ripped off their work clothes, revealing Tom Of Finland styled leather clothes and started fucking each other (and me) like there was no tomorrow.

Crying children watched this while they were abandoned and 4 horseman started riding toward us from the sky, just as opposition of this law predicted.
Click to expand...

thankfully, a new season of Married at first Sight was announced which once again saved the sanctity and pureness of marriage as the holy matrimony between a man and a woman
who have never even met.
 
I think I've heard that in Finland there is a biggest divorce rate than any other nation in Europe, which makes this whole thing hilarious to me.
 
SkeptiMism said:
- "Why aren't the people for 'equal' marriage taking into consideration how people against it feel: to a straight married couple accepting gay marriage as a law would be like getting their head beaten with a mace."
Click to expand...

Woah that must hurt. So many heterosexual Finns will die in the next hours... :'(
 
Canada legalized gay marriage in Ontario in 1994, a full two decades ago. Every argument that engages the economy and child welfare is blown to bits by observation of Ontario. No, our economy didn't suddenly crash because we acknowledged gay couples. No, Child welfare wasn't suddenly horrendous because gay people were getting married. (In fact it theoretically had a very small increase. Divorce is the biggest predictor of a child's well being and gay couples have a slighly lower divorce rate than straight couples.)
 
Earthstrike said:
Canada legalized gay marriage in Ontario in 1994, a full two decades ago. Every argument that engages the economy and child welfare is blown to bits by observation of Ontario. No, our economy didn't suddenly crash because we acknowledged gay couples. No, Child welfare wasn't suddenly horrendous because gay people were getting married. (In fact it theoretically had a very small increase. Divorce is the biggest predictor of a child's well being and gay couples have a slighly lower divorce rate than straight couples.)
Click to expand...

bu-bu-but the bible says that...
 
Finland's pretty progressive otherwise so this thing was always embarrassing. It's pretty clear how the divide goes. Large cities, south and west coasts vs Pohjanmaa (hick country) and east. Party-wise it was straight up only anti-immigration hick party, farmer party and jesus nut party against this.
 
Earthstrike said:
Canada legalized gay marriage in Ontario in 1994, a full two decades ago. Every argument that engages the economy and child welfare is blown to bits by observation of Ontario. No, our economy didn't suddenly crash because we acknowledged gay couples. No, Child welfare wasn't suddenly horrendous because gay people were getting married. (In fact it theoretically had a very small increase. Divorce is the biggest predictor of a child's well being and gay couples have a slighly lower divorce rate than straight couples.)
Click to expand...

My stupid opinion is that when a man and a woman have a marriage, it's a real deal, because they will have their biologial children, aka. "real family" There is an actual levy. With gay marriage, you adopt. It's an illusion.There is no actual levy. It's only to feel good, why even bother adopting, because you are married, right? Your genetics don't go anywhere, so you don't really need the marriage as it is one way to keep a book on whose genetics go where.
 
AP7iwdl.gif


This is great news. Good for you, Finland.
 
raphier said:
My stupid opinion is that when a man and a woman have a marriage, it's a real deal, because they will have their biologial children, aka. "real family" with gay marriage, you adopt. It's an illusion. Your genetics don't go anywhere, so you don't really need the marriage as it is one way to keep a book on whose genetics go where.
Click to expand...

Protip: you don't need marriage to have children


Source: about gazillion people
 
PetriP-TNT said:
Protip: you don't need marriage to have children


Source: about gazillion people
Click to expand...

Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

At first I thought you were being sarcastic but Christ. Do you feel couples that can't produce children have a right to get married?
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

Maybe they get married because they love the traditional, conservative idea of marriage. And they adopt because they love the idea of having a family and raising and nurturing children and adoption is a wonderful way to go about it?
 
Earthstrike said:
At first I thought you were being sarcastic but Christ. Do you feel couples that can't produce children have a right to get married?
Click to expand...

Hell no, I am bi and I have a lot of gay friends. You know what I hear very often, thought? Whenever we walk past a straight couple with their kids, my friends keep saying things like "I can't wait to adopt kids when we get married." As if the whole kids things can happen only when you're married. I just despise the concept of marriage at large. It's one big illusion yet somehow it bloody matters. I just havet this feel that marriage matters to gay society more than the straight people. As if we keep seeking this approval from the society is what I keep hating about it.
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

Same reason as straight couples who adopt? You cannot adopt unless you are married in Finland so that is why they won't adopt without getting married. Also I don't know what your concept of marriage is but atleast IMO it is not about having babies.
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

In a lot of cases we'te talking about internal adoption. Meaning that the partner adopts the biological child of the other. Basically it results in having two legal guardians in the family for the child instead of one.
 
Marriage at it's very base in society is about security and society recognizing your relationship with someone. It means things like widow's pension, making sure your rights with your children won't get screwed if something happens.

Personally, I think that if you're committed to a long time relationship with someone you're an idiot for not getting married because it just adds legal security. Of course, if you believe you're gonna get divorced, you might worry about that but oh well.
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

Why not just let people do what they want, within reason. No one has to justify their personal decisions to you and no one cares if you dont think their marriage is the "real deal."
 
If you want to have/adopt children you hope they can get an stable, functional family. Marriage at least enforces that ideal in the married couple. Not to mention the Hundreds of legal perks that goes with marriage, about taxes, property, children rights etc..
 
raphier said:
Sure, then why do the gay couples adopt when they're married? To make their marriage have bigger impact? To make the most of the concept? To make it feel real? Why won't they adopt without getting married by your logic.
Click to expand...

no, they adopt because they want to have a family.

in many countries, adoption is exclusive to married couples, which is why this is a big deal.

Also, fuck off for doubting the intentions of people who want to have a child. It's more striking how you can be such a bigot if it's something you actually should be happy about.

People, regardless of sexual orientation want to have children, not because of "spreading of genes" but because of the miracle of nurturing and raising another person, contributing to making the next generation of humans a better one, being loved and remembered after death by your children and grandchildren.
Many people, regardless of their wish to adopt or not, want to be married because it symbolizes commitment to one another and gives them a sense of security. Also tax purposes, also adoption rights, also regulation of inheritance and custody if one of them dies.

I just havet this feel that marriage matters to gay society more than the straight people. As if we keep seeking this approval from the society is what I keep hating about it.
Click to expand...

you know who didn't care all that much about freely being able to travel to West Germany before 1989? ... french people, Austrian people, Dutch people. You know who cared a whole lot about being able to, finally, after years of being denied this basic right of freely moving across the border to visit their family? East Germans.
Of course you value something more highly if you have to fight over it not being denied. Everything a gay person should be physically / bureaucratically able to receive (marriage license with a partner they love; an adoptive child they could take care of; ... ) but still can not, is something they are artificially denied by the government / society.
 
embarrassing it took this long, and disgusting how close the vote was.

listening to the counter "arguments" yesterday would have been hilarious if it had not been so tragic.
 
raphier said:
Hell no, I am bi and I have a lot of gay friends. You know what I hear very often, thought? Whenever we walk past a straight couple with their kids, my friends keep saying things like "I can't wait to adopt kids when we get married." As if the whole kids things can happen only when you're married. I just despise the concept of marriage at large. It's one big illusion yet somehow it bloody matters. I just havet this feel that marriage matters to gay society more than the straight people. As if we keep seeking this approval from the society is what I keep hating about it.
Click to expand...

Marriage is a legal status which confers a tangible improvement in finances as a consequence of tax breaks one receives for being married. It's more than just seeking approval.
 
I didn't think the law would pass so I was pretty surprised. I can't wait to read all the salty text messages in the weekend's newspapers, it's going to be glorious.
 
"It's not about equality because the UN declaration of human rights doesn't define same sex marriage as a human right"
Click to expand...
"We can make a law for sun to circle moon but we can't make it happen in reality, the same way we can't break the rules of biology."
Click to expand...
"What will all the sexual minorities demand next? Gay men dressing as women making demands about dressing and shower areas of public places (such as swimming baths) because of feeling uncomfortable having to be with the sex they're attracted to."
Click to expand...
"This should be about children's rights, not about the selfish demands of grown ups."
Click to expand...

How does someone come up with those arguments? Blows my mind.
 
Damn, I didn't realise Kokoomus was that divided on the matter as almost half of them voted against the law.
I'm really happy that Finland made a step forward for once, although recently things have become brighter with the decline of popularity of the Perussuomalaiset party.
Siegcram said:
How does someone come up with those arguments? Blows my mind.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my favorites are those regarding biology determining what marriage is about.
 
Siegcram said:
How does someone come up with those arguments? Blows my mind.
Click to expand...
The rednecks of Finland are dumb and are just parroting the typical negatively biased propaganda with no original thought of their own, and some of the not-quite-as-dumb ones grasping at straws (like the UN one, trying to be clever & one-upping the equality supporters by trying to make it seem like the UN doesn't support same sex marriage based on some single sentence somewhere in the text).
 
LeadenStride said:
Damn, I didn't realise Kokoomus was that divided on the matter as almost half of them voted against the law.
Click to expand...
Rich, older white men & women (and some younger ones) who have had traditional values "blessed" upon them in their childhood. Do remember how unadvanced Finland still was when the now 50+ year olds were still children. Most of them have had the traditional (Christian) values & typical biases against homosexuality pushed upon them when they were children. For too many of them, it has stuck with them through all these years. Even our president doesn't support equal marriage with his "I have nothing against the gays, BUT..." antics, which is pathetic.
 
I'm surprised the vote was so narrow.

Is Finland usually much less progressive than its neighbors to the immediate west?
 
LeadenStride said:
Damn, I didn't realise Kokoomus was that divided on the matter as almost half of them voted against the law.
I'm really happy that Finland made a step forward for once, although recently things have become brighter with the decline of popularity of the Perussuomalaiset party.

Yeah, my favorites are those regarding biology determining what marriage is about.
Click to expand...

Well Kokoomus is the conservative party of Finland, which makes it a bit surprising so many voted for the law. The new generation of libertarians in the party have steered it towards social liberalism, but they're not yet in complete control.

The Center Party really amuses me in a way, as it's aligned with Liberal Democrats internationally. This just shows who they really are. It's still the agrarian party with a huge support base in revivalist christian movement. Their chairman (and possibly the next prime minister) is a conservative christian.

Will Sipilä and Soini find each other now, who knows?
 
Famassu said:
Rich, older white men & women (and some younger ones) who have had traditional values "blessed" upon them in their childhood. Do remember how unadvanced Finland still was when the now 50+ year olds were still children. Most of them have had the traditional (Christian) values & typical biases against homosexuality pushed upon them when they were children. For too many of them, it has stuck with them through all these years. Even our president doesn't support equal marriage with his "I have nothing against the gays, BUT..." antics, which is pathetic.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I get where it's coming from. At the end of the day, they are a rather conservative party after all. It's just that the focus usually relies on those strictly against equal marriage, KD and PS in this case.
 
Valhelm said:
I'm surprised the vote was so narrow.

Is Finland usually much less progressive than its neighbors to the immediate west?
Click to expand...
Yes. We still have a lot more traditional-values-upholding bible thumpers and otherwise just uneducated rednecks in Finland and Sweden's whole "let's make this country a better, more equal place for everyone" attitude is weaker here, in general. I mean, it's there, but it's not nearly as strong and and such a focus point in politics as it seems to be in Sweden. I think it mostly has to do with the biggest demographic in Finland being the 50+ year olds who are still running things and in power (mostly men who think a man kissing & having sex with a man is icky) and Finland still being the most religious Fennoskandian country by far. As religion continues its decline (& becomes more modernized) and the huge older generation in power is pushed out to retirement in the next 10+ years, things will advance a little quicker.
 
About damn time this country get its act together for once.

Cannot wait all the disappointing comments by right wing parties.
 
Some gems here from the people against the law: http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/a1417147244372

Judging by those comments Finland is going to face the wrath of God, schools will be filled with homosexual propaganda and that we are degenerating. Also nice quote from one lady "This means hard time for Finland. Even though God is love, that doesn't mean that he accepts everything."
 
I just read that Päivi Räsänen said she would leave her position as the Minister of the Interior of Finland if this bill passed.

I don't like to use these words, but it's about time THAT DUMB BITCH gets the fuck out of our cabinet. I can't under how a dumb-dumb cray-cray moron like her got to her position. She's just so fucking idiotic and almost nothing she does or says has any sense.

If she makes good of her promise, we can consider this day a DOUBLE VICTORY for Finland. \o/
 
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