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Super Best Friends Thread 8: "You know, we really are the Super Best Friends Play"

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I once wrote up a concept for a female Link. It was okay.

In the story, the world was fucked, from the various timelines crashing on each other, because of the Triforce disappearing. In the end, you find out the main antagonist isn't Ganon, but a Link who became self aware of the reincarnation cycle, and decided to end it.

Also, the female Link wasn't a Link at all, and was just a random girl.
 
croten said:
Yes, I don't see the issue with that. It wouldn't affect the plot or gameplay in any way.
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Exactly, it's just pointless. It feels like it's altering one of the few static things about the series for absolutely no reason. If you don't care about those changes, it's just different strokes then.
I'm not sure about playing as Zelda though because outside some incarnations she's not really a fighter. A Tetra game on the other hand..
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Now that sounds way cooler. I'd love to be a pirate in the Wind Waker universe.
 
PfantzyPantz said:
Or that usually 'girly females' are really annoying in Japanese games, unless you like kawaii moe stuff. And usually when you don't have the super hardcore female, they end up being like Other M Samus where their character development is just being a crying waifu for the man to protect.
Easy example being Hyrule Warriors itself. Lana is infuriating, Impa is not.
SS Princess Zelda is great, but she isn't a protagonist.

It's not an audience problem, it's the writers. JP writers make the 'girly females' otaku bait and American writers don't like female protagonists in general (or aren't allowed to because they don't make as much money apparently).
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But if that's their personality then there is nothing wrong with that.

It goes back to the whole tomboy thing and what not. A female friend said she didn't like Korra as a character much because she really didn't even act like a girl most of the time. (To be fair, Korra is a shit character)

You know, it goes back to the fact that when writing for a Male character you're simply writing for a character. When writing a Female you're writing a female character.

I think Books over all is the only media that moved past this.

I mean if someone wants to write for a character they should be allowed to without wondering if it's a good representation of that gender. Fuck writing like that, make a character how you want them to be. If they're too girl sucks for the people watching, if a female is straight faced or serious and that's how she supposed to be fine.
 
croten said:
Yes, I don't see the issue with that. It wouldn't affect the plot or gameplay in any way. I'm not sure about playing as Zelda though because outside some incarnations she's not really a fighter. A Tetra game on the other hand...
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I mean, I could see them doing something like they did with Paper Mario where they check in on what Peach is doing and then you play as Peach while she's sneaking around the castle doing stuff. It doesn't need to follow that same formula, but it'd be neat. Or like, imagine if this happened in Skyward Sword. You know how Impa and Zelda were going through the dungeons before Link and Link would always catch them as they were leaving? Imagine if as you enter or after you finish the dungeon you did it while playing as Impa and Zelda and it could be similar to the buddy dungeons from Wind Waker. (The Makar and Medli ones.)

It would be a different trip through the dungeon because they obviously don't have the same capabilities as Link and would have used different methods to solve the puzzles.

Certainly would have been a better use of resources than fighting the Imprisoned three separate times.
 
Banana Aeon said:
I once wrote up a concept for a female Link. It was okay.

In the story, the world was fucked, from the various timelines crashing on each other, because of the Triforce disappearing. In the end, you find out the main antagonist isn't Ganon, but a Link who became self aware of the reincarnation cycle, and decided to end it.

Also, the female Link wasn't a Link at all, and was just a random girl.
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Sounds cool on paper, it'd have to have great execution to make it work. Although it would taint people who really love the series and complain why link isn't playable.
 
Also who thought it was a good idea to give EVERY SINGLE BOSS a instant kill move in the Evil with In.? I mean, it's stupid as fuck.
 
360pages said:
It goes back to the whole tomboy thing and what not. A female friend said she didn't like Korra as a character much because she really didn't even act like a girl most of the time. (To be fair, Korra is a shit character)

You know, it goes back to the fact that when writing for a Male character you're simply writing for a character. When writing a Female you're writing a female character.

I think Books over all is the only media that moved past this.

I mean if someone wants to write for a character they should be allowed to without wondering if it's a good representation of that gender. Fuck writing like that, make a character how you want them to be. If they're too girl sucks for the people watching, if a female is straight faced or serious and that's how she supposed to be fine.
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That is why I hate this discussion. Way too often it feels like a female is written to be a female for some ulterior reason.

The only example to the contrary is Metroid.
 
360pages said:
But if that's their personality then there is nothing wrong with that.

It goes back to the whole tomboy thing and what not. A female friend said she didn't like Korra as a character much because she really didn't even act like a girl most of the time. (To be fair, Korra is a shit character)

You know, it goes back to the fact that when writing for a Male character you're simply writing for a character. When writing a Female you're writing a female character.

I think Books over all is the only media that moved past this.

I mean if someone wants to write for a character they should be allowed to without wondering if it's a good representation of that gender. Fuck writing like that, make a character how you want them to be. If they're too girl sucks for the people watching, if a female is straight faced or serious and that's how she supposed to be fine.
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The thing is being a girl or a guy does affect who you are. It's the world we live in. If the story is set in some utopia where gender doesn't matter then it's different
 
Zenfalcia said:
Sounds cool on paper, it'd have to have great execution to make it work. Although it would taint people who really love the series and complain why link isn't playable.
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That's something that I would want the player to feel. And the feeling of nostalgia being twisted around them, as since the timelines became one, it would take an element from each game, and feature it here.
 
Banana Aeon said:
That's something that I would want the player to feel. And the feeling of nostalgia being twisted around them, as since the timelines became one, it would take an element from each game, and feature it here.
Click to expand...

Now that would be really cool, especially because it actually has a point. It plays on the static elements of the series and changes them to induce a feeling of unease and curiosity as to why, which actually matters in the end.
 
croten said:
The thing is being a girl or a guy does affect who you are. It's the world we live in. If the story is set in some utopia where gender doesn't matter then it's different
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Too bad most females characters defining trait is that they are indeed female. Most people who write males don't sit down and say. (Man how do I make this Male character appeal to the demographic?) No they usually just write the character.

Females on the other hand they decide just that,

Gender can be a part of it, but you shouldn't base your entire character on your gender. I doubt real life people's entire personality is defined by it.

Just focus on writing a good character the gender specifics can come as the story goes on.
 
Glitchesarecool said:
So why did people object to female link again?
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I want a female Link just so I can be happy that Mango Magician will be angry.

The actual reasoning is that Link has never been a woman and that him becoming a woman would spit on a 20 year history of a character's design, despite that design changing every game and having lore justification for Link being different people. The other side says "Hey, a female Link would be fun!" and the people against it clearly just hate fun and are bad angry people with no sense of a good time.
 
360pages said:
But if that's their personality then there is nothing wrong with that.

It goes back to the whole tomboy thing and what not. A female friend said she didn't like Korra as a character much because she really didn't even act like a girl most of the time. (To be fair, Korra is a shit character)

You know, it goes back to the fact that when writing for a Male character you're simply writing for a character. When writing a Female you're writing a female character.

I think Books over all is the only media that moved past this.

I mean if someone wants to write for a character they should be allowed to without wondering if it's a good representation of that gender. Fuck writing like that, make a character how you want them to be. If they're too girl sucks for the people watching, if a female is straight faced or serious and that's how she supposed to be fine.
Click to expand...

That's the point I was making, that most of our writers can't do female characters because they have to treat them as either a tool for 'sex sells' or a non-character that accomplishes nothing.
You were basically blaming the audience for not accepting the 'girly female' characters, instead of the writers who treat female characters as the aforementioned.
 
Alfebit said:
The Legend of Link. Zelda has to save Prince Link.
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The title Legend of Zelda annoys me so fucking much sometimes because Zelda is barely in the game.

The fuck is her Legend? The legend of the girl who turns to stone? Legend of the girl who falls asleep? Legend of the girl who pretends she is a man and confuses thousands of kids under the age of 12? Legend of some pirate girl? Legend of the girl who wants the D? Legend of the girl who will give you the D?
 
I get why people want a female version of Link, I really do, but.......




























Ganondorf comes first.
Toon_Ganondorf_by_Vestergaard.jpg
 
First week of December over, and as far as my current progress for "shit to finish in a month" goes:

66% through Shadow of Mordor
Finished Chapter 2 of Episode 1 in Deadly Premonition
Early on in Transistor.
Early on in South Park
Halfway through Book 3 in Captain Toad.

Yeah, should probably just focus on two at a time to not spread myself super thin.
 
Zenfalcia said:
Well, have you played the Aterlier games? Those have girl protagonists and some of them are adorable. Atelier Ayesha is supposed to be super sweet and great.
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Ayesha is adorable. She's a good protag from the angle of being a good representation of a cute female character, but is pretty bland as a character. That game is great, though, you should all play it when it comes to Vita in January with sound.
 
croten said:
Hahahaha, no. No I didn't.
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Spoilers from the game'

It starts the timeline and each Link outside the one from the windwaker is a reincarnation. They do this so he and Zelda destines will always be interlocked (As lovers or not I'm not sure, it's kind of blurry on that detail) you could had a gender neutral reincarnation like Avatar. But I don't think that is what they were going for.
 
ArclightBorealis said:
First week of December over, and as far as my current progress for "shit to finish in a month" goes:

66% through Shadow of Mordor
Finished Chapter 2 of Episode 1 in Deadly Premonition
Early on in Transistor.
Early on in South Park
Halfway through Book 3 in Captain Toad.

Yeah, should probably just focus on two at a time to not spread myself super thin.
Click to expand...

Focus on one game at a time. This is why I will never have a backlog.

If I drop a game, that game is dropped.
 
360pages said:
Too bad most females characters defining trait is that they are indeed female. Most people who write males don't sit down and say. (Man how do I make this Male character appeal to the demographic?) No they usually just write the character.

Females on the other hand they decide just that,

Gender can be a part of it, but you shouldn't base your entire character on your gender. I doubt real life people's entire personality is defined by it.

Just focus on writing a good character the gender specifics can come as the story goes on.
Click to expand...

I never said base your entire character on their gender just that it matters. For example say a character is Transgender. You cannot write them normally, it would be a big deal.
 
croten said:
I never said base your entire character on their gender just that it matters. For example say a character is Transgender. You cannot write them normally, it would be a big deal.
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Why? Wouldn't writing them as you would every other character show that they're just people?
 
PfantzyPantz said:
That's the point I was making, that most of our writers can't do female characters because they have to treat them as either a tool for 'sex sells' or a non-character that accomplishes nothing.
You were basically blaming the audience for not accepting the 'girly female' characters, instead of the writers who treat female characters as the aforementioned.
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But both the problem. You probably will never see a character like the Atelier leads in the USA as a main lead. Since they were deemed too girly.

Despite the constant Fanservice one thing that I can give japan is that their females are very diverse when it comes to personality in their media. Even if most do follow a set template there are more templates there than here.
 
Banana Aeon said:
That's something that I would want the player to feel. And the feeling of nostalgia being twisted around them, as since the timelines became one, it would take an element from each game, and feature it here.
Click to expand...

So, would the tones change from each dungeon/timeline/game? It'll be hard to have some continuity to it.
jack_package_200 said:
No I have dibs,
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Oh.. ok...
Aaron-Lagann said:
Ayesha is adorable. She's a good protag from the angle of being a good representation of a cute female character, but is pretty bland as a character. That game is great, though, you should all play it when it comes to Vita in January with sound.
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It's fine. I can live with bland characters. What do you mean with sound?
 
Snapshot King said:
Thanks Evil Within. I just noticed visual corruption in my PS4 main menu. I think the console is actually dying.
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Maybe something is lurking inside the PS4? The Evil Within so to speak.

Really though a console dying is always shitty, a console dying in its first year is ultra shitty. Sony has lost my trust when it comes to being a day one/year one adopter due to how shoddy the PS2 phats were in 2001. My family got two, both stopped reading CD rom format discs after months, eventually both shit themselves completely.
 
croten said:
I never said base your entire character on their gender just that it matters. For example say a character is Transgender. You cannot write them normally, it would be a big deal.
Click to expand...

Um..Catharine probably has one of the best Transgender characters in gaming mostly because it wasn't their defining feature. Hell, you didn't even know until the very end of the game despite the game giving you small hints.

Also the Evil within is cursed...
 
croten said:
The thing is being a girl or a guy does affect who you are. It's the world we live in. If the story is set in some utopia where gender doesn't matter then it's different
Click to expand...

I agree, but I would also point out that oftentimes a character's maleness, whiteness, etc. often times doesn't really play a part in their story in a meaningful way. While gender does in fact matter, there's varying degrees of "mattering" you can have it be in the context of the story. Not all stories call for gender mattering, even if in the society gender matters to some degree. There should be freedom in that regard. Basically, whatever is good writing for that situation is good. Sometimes focus on identity is great. Other times, it doesn't matter so much. It's OK to have characters that happen to be X or Y. So while it's an important topic that should be discussed in writing, it doesn't need to be the centerpiece of every story.

Of course, if the society in your story is really homophobic and lynches gay people, it would be weird if a gay character's homosexuality didn't play a key role in the story. I would think that the writer planned the story very poorly. If it took place on a liberal arts college campus, then it's not as necessary, but there should still be something there considering identity politics going on in America right now.

I find that a few people complain when a character is non-white, non-male and those aspects don't play an important role, but those same people don't complain when a character's whiteness etc. doesn't play a role. That is, for some people there's an underlying assumption that being white or male etc. is "normal", and deviating from the norm requires a good explanation and extra effort. For them, if you want to make a female character you need to have a reason for that character being female. For example, when that new Civilization game in space was announced and the leaders for the countries were shown off, one or two people on the subreddit were vocally complaining how so few of the characters were white males and that creating a diverse cast was just pandering and shoving minorities into the player's faces. (Luckily they got downvoted to hell).
 
AngryCanadian said:
There is no need to make Link a female, just make Zelda the Main character and have her save/partner with Link.
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That's the thing, though, that's changing the game way more. Link is the Hero of Legend, the character that has the Triforce of Courage. That triforce is what lets him go into monster filled dungeons. Zelda has the Trifroce of Wisdom, which is why she's a leader of a kingdom. Ganon has Power, which lets him try to take over.

They've spent a ton of games establishing that the Courage Triforce is the reason Link saves the day. Making Zelda save the day as is would mean none of it mattered, then giving her the Courage Triforce would make her the Hero of Legend, AKA Link.
 
AngryCanadian said:
There is no need to make Link a female, just make Zelda the Main character and have her save/partner with Link.
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Nah. If Link's a female, Zelda could be something else entirely. What if Zelda is an older queen who wants to pass the torch onto Link when the time comes? What if Zelda is actually Link's mother at some point?

The Zelda series could really do with some shaking up narratively, Zelda Wii-U already looks pretty shaken up compared to past Zelda titles.
 
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