Legend of Korra Book 4: Balance |OT| A Feast of Crows

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Yeah beginning of ATLA is really bad. 1st season has those scanning issues. I guess I'm just not familiar with like, the source material for animations like this. If, them being made for SD TV, meant the actual animation itself was made in SD (or if it was just compressed down for SD).

Anyways, I can't see Nick putting in the effort to making this on Blu Ray. Sadly. They can't even be arsed to allow Korra's music to be released digitally. What makes anyone think they will put the time/money and effort in digging out the source animation from ATLA, and cleaning it up for a blu ray release. LOL We are just lucky that Korra was HD out the gate.
I honestly think Avatar was animated at a point in time where it was too expensive or just too early in the adoption rate to do it in HD and well it was most likely done digitally so there's most likely no way to up res that. If it was on celluloid then yes they could do it. But given how Zuckerman doesn't even have good enough masters for an ATLA soundtrack then I would doubt they would have the film stock to remaster. They'd have to reanimate the whole thing FMA: Brotherhood style.
 
I honestly think Avatar was animated at a point in time where it was too expensive or just too early in the adoption rate to do it in HD and well it was most likely done digitally so there's most likely no way to up res that. If it was on celluloid then yes they could do it. But given how Zuckerman doesn't even have good enough masters for an ATLA soundtrack then I would doubt they would have the film stock to remaster. They'd have to reanimate the whole thing FMA: Brotherhood style.

Yeah and you know that shit aint happening.

Which is a shame. Because I really do consider ATLA one of the all time great stories of the last 20 years. So in another 40 years, it will be a damn shame, if it still looks like hot garbage.
 
Yeah and you know that shit aint happening.

Which is a shame. Because I really do consider ATLA one of the all time great stories of the last 20 years. So in another 40 years, it will be a damn shame, if it still looks like hot garbage.
I know they would make money off of it, the thing is how much and would the profit margin be acceptable, then again with Brotherhood it was a complete retelling, everybody already knows how ATLA ended. Now if they link the two shows properly then fine and fix some of the narrative oddities then that would be great, especially if they retell some of Korra's story.
 
Also, the funny thing is that people are specifically arguing I can't enjoy it the way I want. By definition, this entire debate is about whether I am allowed to recognize as legitimate what I want to recognize as legitimate.

I just want to be fair and acknowledge that I see this as an acceptable reading of my posts insomuch as it implicitly takes into account incompatible foundational principles. Under the structure I (and presumably others) am operating under, there is a superior authority given to creators to determine the official/legitimate works, so Veelk's musing that:

headcanon doesn't seem like it, because it implies it is subservient to ordinary canon when instead it is the actual chosen version of what happens.

That's absolutely an intended consequence that speaks to our underlying differences.


The only other thing I'll bring up is an analogy I thought was apt but which wasn't used in the right way:

Veelk said:
Is there mass chaos because no one agrees which pastry breakfast is the best between waffles and pancakes? No people have their preferences and leave it.

That pastry analogy doesn't apply, since we're talking about a single story/item. It would indeed be kind of nasty and chaotic for many people to make a single waffle with different recipes. That's more of the analogy I'm trying to get at when it comes to crowdsourcing a single story, or basing an model of producing pop culture and art on it.

But...there ARE many recipes for even the same kind of waffles. Just look it up on the internet. Some will have you use vegatable oil, some not, etc. As you can see, the streets have not run red with blood.

The correct use of this analogy is what happens when someone orders a specific dish like Eggs Benedict or a Reuben sandwich, but the cook has their own opinion of what that should mean. These dishes have implicit culturally understood definitions and corresponding ingredients that make them up. People would be rightfully upset if their food was delivered and they discovered that there was no English Muffin or that the there was no Sauerkraut.

Variants of these dishes use different names to signify that they incorporate non-"canonical" ingredients. Irish Eggs Benedict (replaces the ham with corned beef or Irish bacon) and Rachel Sandwich (substituting pastrami for the corned beef, and coleslaw for the sauerkraut) are two such examples. You wouldn't serve someone a Rachel Sandwich when they ordered a Reuben because that's not what they ordered, no matter how much you as the cook may think that a Rachel Sandwich is the superior incarnation for eating and fulfilling the purpose of food.
 
What are your thoughts on Xillia 2?

I'm pretty conflicted on it. From what I understand, they didn't intend for Xillia to have a sequel in the first place but ended up doing a sequel because the first Xillia was rushed out. Might as well put the rest of this post under spoiler tags since I dunno who has or hasn't played it.

I found Xillia 2's plot to feel really taped on, and while I like Ludger design and concept-wise, I couldn't stand how he was integrated into the game. Being a silent protagonist, he felt like a Mary Sue because almost everyone in the Xillia 1 cast takes to him immediately. Then the game tries to make me feel sorry for him by having him go through some really contrived hardships.

The tonal shift from the first game just felt so off and didn't really fit with the first Xillia game, IMO. It's a dark game, sure, but the first Xillia was already darker than most Tales games and wasn't so try-hard about it. Then there's the whole Kresnik plot, which reminded me of Naruto Shippuden in a way. Except replace the Uchiha with the Kresniks. Bugged me that suddenly the Kresnik family are the only people in the uni(multi-)verse who matter.

Just sloppy storytelling all around, in my opinion. I mean, yeah, it's a Tales game, but I thought the first Xillia did some really good world building for a Tales game. Then Xillia 2 came along and crapped on it with really, really contrived anime tropes (even for a Tales game).

Edit: The point of this being that I can understand how people feel about how LoK changes some of the established canon of AtLA. I don't mind it too much, but it does change how the world works a bit. And I can get just wanting to ignore anything that LoK adds in favor of just considering the AtLA lore.
 
Man this series sure picked up speed huh? I remember finishing the first season just as the second one started, watched like three episodes of that and then stopped watching because I didn't want to wait a week for 20 minutes. Now they're already at the series finale. Guess it's time to start marathoning.

The first season I really liked, I saw people kind of trashing the second one so I'm curious where it goes. I went on to Korra right after going through the last airbender for the first time.

It weirded me out a bit how bad the reception of Korra was compared to TLA. I enjoyed TLA but that series has a lot of problems, problems that transfer over to Korra as well mainly the convenience writing. I also couldn't care less about Aang as a main character and I often found Sokka's humour more annoying than funny (he has a few very strong moments of character development and I would have liked to see more of that).

So I didn't really see a decline in quality going from TLA to Korra but who knows, maybe season two will take care of that.
 
The correct use of this analogy is what happens when someone orders a specific dish like Eggs Benedict or a Reuben sandwich, but the cook has their own opinion of what that should mean. These dishes have implicit culturally understood definitions and corresponding ingredients that make them up. People would be rightfully upset if their food was delivered and they discovered that there was no English Muffin or that the there was no Sauerkraut.

Variants of these dishes use different names to signify that they incorporate non-"canonical" ingredients. Irish Eggs Benedict (replaces the ham with corned beef or Irish bacon) and Rachel Sandwich (substituting pastrami for the corned beef, and coleslaw for the sauerkraut) are two such examples. You wouldn't serve someone a Rachel Sandwich when they ordered a Reuben because that's not what they ordered, no matter how much you as the cook may think that a Rachel Sandwich is the superior incarnation for eating and fulfilling the purpose of food.

This presumes that I, as the cook, am forcing anyone to accept my variant of food. This is simply not what is happening. I've stated multiple times I am indifferent to what other people choose as their particular canon. This is one misconception I really wish would stop. It is untrue and puts people in a defensive state of mind, as if I'm trying to force something on them.

There is no 'provider' of the official canon in this analogy to the audience. Or rather, the audience themselves are the providers. They cook the food, however they want, and eat it themselves. There is no one making them eat Rachel Sandwiches if they want Reuben.

Now, if I consider Irish Eggs Benedict THE definitive Eggs Benedict sandwich for me. I could go my whole life without ever giving particular reverence to the ordinary Eggs Benedict, even refusing to eat it in favor of Irish Eggs Benedict. If it is all I eat, to the point that it is the first thing I think of when I hear the generic phrase "Eggs Benedict", then for all intents and purposes, Irish Eggs Benedict is the canon Eggs Benedict for me. It's not just the 'preferred one' it is the conceptualization of Eggs Benedict as a default.

Now, for the purposes of common discourse, normal Eggs Benedict is the one most people are familiar with. The primary objection I see from the other side is that if I take Irish Eggs Benedict as canon, then it will cause confusion because I will be talking about IEB as if it's ordinary EB. Well, I can't speak for other people, but I've never encountered this to be a problem. All it requires is the common sense knowledge that the source will be the most well known all types, so I use qualifiers acknowledging that Irish Eggs Benedict is a variant, even though I personally consider it the definitive model.

Well, now I'm hungry.
 
Man this series sure picked up speed huh? I remember finishing the first season just as the second one started, watched like three episodes of that and then stopped watching because I didn't want to wait a week for 20 minutes. Now they're already at the series finale. Guess it's time to start marathoning.

The first season I really liked, I saw people kind of trashing the second one so I'm curious where it goes. I went on to Korra right after going through the last airbender for the first time.

It weirded me out a bit how bad the reception of Korra was compared to TLA. I enjoyed TLA but that series has a lot of problems, problems that transfer over to Korra as well mainly the convenience writing. I also couldn't care less about Aang as a main character and I often found Sokka's humour more annoying than funny (he has a few very strong moments of character development and I would have liked to see more of that).

So I didn't really see a decline in quality going from TLA to Korra but who knows, maybe season two will take care of that.

Season 2 is where most people think it declined massively. So yeah, watch that first and then you will understand. Also, I don't think anything in ATLA was anywhere close to as bad as the finale of Book 1.

The last 10 min of Korra's Book 1 finale was insanely garbage. But I actually agree with you, I liked Book 1 for the most part. I think, 13 episode format, meant the side characters weren't as fleshed out. And there were some other issues, but I really liked Book 1.

Good news is, most people loved Book 3 front to back. So just get past Book 2. Book 4....eh. It's not terrible. Just disappointing. But we'll see how you feel about it.
 
Man this series sure picked up speed huh? I remember finishing the first season just as the second one started, watched like three episodes of that and then stopped watching because I didn't want to wait a week for 20 minutes. Now they're already at the series finale. Guess it's time to start marathoning.

The first season I really liked, I saw people kind of trashing the second one so I'm curious where it goes. I went on to Korra right after going through the last airbender for the first time.

It weirded me out a bit how bad the reception of Korra was compared to TLA. I enjoyed TLA but that series has a lot of problems, problems that transfer over to Korra as well mainly the convenience writing. I also couldn't care less about Aang as a main character and I often found Sokka's humour more annoying than funny (he has a few very strong moments of character development and I would have liked to see more of that).

So I didn't really see a decline in quality going from TLA to Korra but who knows, maybe season two will take care of that.

Season 2's finale will blow your mind.
 
Season 2's finale will blow your mind.

TAK is like in the 1% that likes the finale. Most think it's a piece of shit. Ultimately, it's up to you to make up your own mind. If you love it, or even love Book 2, then that's all that really matters. Just go in with an open mind, and make up your own mind on things. Doesn't really matter what the fan base thinks.

It only matters if we are having a discussion.
 
TAK is like in the 1% that likes the finale. Most think it's a piece of shit. Ultimately, it's up to you to make up your own mind. If you love it, or even love Book 2, then that's all that really matters. Just go in with an open mind, and make up your own mind on things. Doesn't really matter what the fan base thinks.

It only matters if we are having a discussion.

I am the 1%.

Bow to me.
 
Season 2 is where most people think it declined massively. So yeah, watch that first and then you will understand. Also, I don't think anything in ATLA was anywhere close to as bad as the finale of Book 1.

The last 10 min of Korra's Book 1 finale was insanely garbage. But I actually agree with you, I liked Book 1 for the most part. I think, 13 episode format, meant the side characters weren't as fleshed out. And there were some other issues, but I really liked Book 1.

Good news is, most people loved Book 3 front to back. So just get past Book 2. Book 4....eh. It's not terrible. Just disappointing. But we'll see how you feel about it.

Yes, the finale wasn't great, that's true. That being said I thought the finale for TLA was underwhelming as well but obviously nowhere near as bad.

I don't really care that much though because endings aren't that important to me. It's true that a good ending can right a few wrongs or make something truly special but for me it has to do a lot to break what came before.

It's the same for me with ME3. The ending was bad, there's no denying it but I still love that game. Would I have liked the ending to be better? Absolutely. Can I understand people who hate it because of the ending? To a certain degree for sure. But if I have gotten so much enjoyment out of the journey I'm not all that bothered by a lame ending.

Endings are hard to write, I know that. They have to be criticised without a doubt but I'm willing to forgive a lot when it comes down to it.
 
Yes, the finale wasn't great, that's true. That being said I thought the finale for TLA was underwhelming as well but obviously nowhere near as bad.

I don't really care that much though because endings aren't that important to me. It's true that a good ending can right a few wrongs or make something truly special but for me it has to do a lot to break what came before.

It's the same for me with ME3. The ending was bad, there's no denying it but I still love that game. Would I have liked the ending to be better? Absolutely. Can I understand people who hate it because of the ending? To a certain degree for sure. But if I have gotten so much enjoyment out of the journey I'm not all that bothered by a lame ending.

Endings are hard to write, I know that. They have to be criticised without a doubt but I'm willing to forgive a lot when it comes down to it.

It seems like ATLA's series finale has mixed feelings. I personally loved it. I thought it was a massive spectacle. Great visuals. Emotional pay off. It really brought the entire journey to a close.

My only gripe was how they handled Aang and Ozai. I actually liked the idea of Aang not compromising himself. But the way they went about him just happening to get what he needed, rubbed me the wrong way. So that was the only thing I didn't like. It's no where as bad as Korra getting all her powers back through Spirit Aang, and also getting the power of the Avatar State. That was pure non-sense.

Also, the way they handled Amon was atrocious. But I'm always kind of surprised when I hear people feel lukewarm on ATLA"s series finale. I just always thought it was this massive epic. The fighting. The visuals (I mean holy god, Zuko vs Azula). The emotional pay off (Zuko and Iroh). Even Aang vs Ozai was epic (even if the ending was a little cheap).

But whatever criticisms you have for ATLA's series finale, i still think it did a good job kind of like, ending that epic journey for all the characters. That it felt like they had a through line. That they had so much emotional depth and growth over the course of the series. And the bond they had with one another. And the bond the audience had for them. I think all of that came together in the finale. And that's something that I don't think could be taken from ATLA, whatever issues people have with the ending itself.

EDIT: The reason I hated ME3, is that I thought ME3's overall story was bad. It wasn't just the ending. And while the ending sucked, I think the bigger issue is that, it revealed the game to be a long con. That in the end, you really never had a choice with your character. That all the choices you had shaping your shephard, was kind of pointless. And I think that is really what makes ME3 a disaster IMO. Normally I agree with you. Ending don't ruin a series for me. But I do feel ME3 ruined any interest I had in the ME universe, because of just how it all came together. But we'll see.
 
I'm pretty conflicted on it. From what I understand, they didn't intend for Xillia to have a sequel in the first place but ended up doing a sequel because the first Xillia was rushed out. Might as well put the rest of this post under spoiler tags since I dunno who has or hasn't played it.

I found Xillia 2's plot to feel really taped on, and while I like Ludger design and concept-wise, I couldn't stand how he was integrated into the game. Being a silent protagonist, he felt like a Mary Sue because almost everyone in the Xillia 1 cast takes to him immediately. Then the game tries to make me feel sorry for him by having him go through some really contrived hardships.

The tonal shift from the first game just felt so off and didn't really fit with the first Xillia game, IMO. It's a dark game, sure, but the first Xillia was already darker than most Tales games and wasn't so try-hard about it. Then there's the whole Kresnik plot, which reminded me of Naruto Shippuden in a way. Except replace the Uchiha with the Kresniks. Bugged me that suddenly the Kresnik family are the only people in the uni(multi-)verse who matter.

Just sloppy storytelling all around, in my opinion. I mean, yeah, it's a Tales game, but I thought the first Xillia did some really good world building for a Tales game. Then Xillia 2 came along and crapped on it with really, really contrived anime tropes (even for a Tales game).

Edit: The point of this being that I can understand how people feel about how LoK changes some of the established canon of AtLA. I don't mind it too much, but it does change how the world works a bit. And I can get just wanting to ignore anything that LoK adds in favor of just considering the AtLA lore.
I didn't even beat it and can't even argue with this because I kind of like it, but hate it at the same time because the narrative just doesn't pull you in that well. Ludger is boring, but surrounded by a pretty likable cast. There just wasn't much in it that kept me wanting to play, I'll pick it up again yes, but I couldn't marathon it like I did the first one.
Season 2's finale will blow your mind.
Because it shit the bed in epic fashion.
 
Ready for Friday!

SLaAijf.png

printing this out
 
It's also been a few years.

But still. That Ozai battle went on for too long.

Well, it was the payoff of multiple seasons so it's length was perfect. It was fine (unlike the hot piece of poo that is the season 2 finale). Although I didn't like the deus ex rock giving Aang the Avatar state no matter how many times Veelk tries to convince us that it was the earths spirit helping him.
 
It's also been a few years.

But still. That Ozai battle went on for too long.

The battle went on for the right amount of time, and made sense. Korra's battle with Unalaq went on too long. This is insane on so many levels, I can't comprehend. Again I repeat:

Korra is super mode. Reks Unalaq. Then Unalaq knocks her down. Then beats her into oblivion where there is no hope. BUT WAIT. Korra rises up, Reks Unalaq. Is about to win. Then Unalaq knocks her down. Then beats her into oblivion where there is no hope.

That legit was the entire Book 2 finale. And then the writers kept stacking on shit just to make Korra suffer and feel more and more tragic. And they kept throwing more and more stuff on to it, to almost comical levels of suffering. And then they wrote themselves into a corner with all the absurd suffering they stacked on, and needed Jinora to undo all the shit they did.

I just don't understand how you can say Ozai vs Aang was too long, but say Korra vs Unalq was just right. It was a really terrible fight. At least the Ozai and Aang fight made sense. The choreography for one, and visuals were much better too.
 
WHAT. THE. FUCK. ARE. YOU. SMOKING.

That shit was amazing. It actually dealt with bending at its best, and you preferred Power Rangers?

No. Just no. Leave. Leave and never come back.

Well, it was the payoff of multiple seasons so it's length was perfect. It was fine (unlike the hot piece of poo that is the season 2 finale). Although I didn't like the deus ex rock giving Aang the Avatar state no matter how many times Veelk tries to convince us that it was the earths spirit helping him.
Wait-what? LOL

Seriously, dudes, I love Mark Hamill to death, but was the poor choice to voice Ozai. He came off really silly.
 
Mark Hamill wins at life just for existing, love that man anything he voices is great.

Kuvira is boring as shit. Ozai had personality. Psychotic personality, but at least something besides Hitler-bot 2000
 
The battle went on for the right amount of time, and made sense. Korra's battle with Unalaq went on too long. This is insane on so many levels, I can't comprehend. Again I repeat:

Korra is super mode. Reks Unalaq. Then Unalaq knocks her down. Then beats her into oblivion where there is no hope. BUT WAIT. Korra rises up, Reks Unalaq. Is about to win. Then Unalaq knocks her down. Then beats her into oblivion where there is no hope.

That legit was the entire Book 2 finale. And then the writers kept stacking on shit just to make Korra suffer and feel more and more tragic. And they kept throwing more and more stuff on to it, to almost comical levels of suffering. And then they wrote themselves into a corner with all the absurd suffering they stacked on, and needed Jinora to undo all the shit they did.

I just don't understand how you can say Ozai vs Aang was too long, but say Korra vs Unalq was just right. It was a really terrible fight. At least the Ozai and Aang fight made sense. The choreography for one, and visuals were much better too.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe. But he was still better then Unalaq or Kuvira. Sorry breh.

Kuvira is boring as shit. Ozai had personality. Psychotic personality, but at least something besides Hitler-bot 2000

I will never argue that Unalaq was anywhere near a good or competent villain, but you all better take back what you said about Kuvira.
 
EDIT: The reason I hated ME3, is that I thought ME3's overall story was bad. It wasn't just the ending. And while the ending sucked, I think the bigger issue is that, it revealed the game to be a long con. That in the end, you really never had a choice with your character. That all the choices you had shaping your shephard, was kind of pointless. And I think that is really what makes ME3 a disaster IMO. Normally I agree with you. Ending don't ruin a series for me. But I do feel ME3 ruined any interest I had in the ME universe, because of just how it all came together. But we'll see.

That's an interesting interpretation. I recently wrote up a thread about one of the choices I made in ME3.

I'm kind of against the notion that merely because there were not consequences, that the choices didn't matter. The choices made, whether they had large impacts or not, were things that provided me insight and a 'feeling' of control, and it was later established that the feeling of control was an illusion and I had to reflect if my choices were meaningful in that context.

I'll agree that there is some serious false advertisement about choices having huge consequences in ME. They said they'd change everything, and sometimes they change nothing at all. Sometimes, that by itself is meaningful, but some cases were just flat out bullshit.

I'd have accepted all those more minor problems if the ending didn't pull the shit it did, however.

Wait-what? LOL

Seriously, dudes, I love Mark Hamill to death, but was the poor choice to voice Ozai. He came off really silly.

I'll say what I said when you went off too hard on your Kuvira love.

Sometimes, I'm concerned for you.
 
Wait-what? LOL

Seriously, dudes, I love Mark Hamill to death, but was the poor choice to voice Ozai. He came off really silly.

Yes, veelk has his own headcanon with regards to the deus ex machina that was the rock. And that's fine I guess.

Unalaq was boring.

Zelda Williams, as much as I like her as a person, has given the most monotone and boring performance as Kuvira.

Rollins did well as Zaheer. Hell all the Red Lotus were fine.

Steve Blum as Amon was perfect. "I. Am the solution." SO GOOD.

Compare that to the shit with Kuvira "I always get what I want". Are you shitting me? Makes me cringe every time.
 
Synthesis is the worst and ME3's ending made me feel something that I had never encountered in gaming before...

Massive, honest, upsetting, disappointment.
 
That's an interesting interpretation. I recently wrote up a thread about one of the choices I made in ME3.

I'm kind of against the notion that merely because there were not consequences, that the choices didn't matter. The choices made, whether they had large impacts or not, were things that provided me insight and a 'feeling' of control, and it was later established that the feeling of control was an illusion and I had to reflect if my choices were meaningful in that context.

I'll agree that there is some serious false advertisement about choices having huge consequences in ME. They said they'd change everything, and sometimes they change nothing at all. Sometimes, that by itself is meaningful, but some cases were just flat out bullshit.

I'd have accepted all those more minor problems if the ending didn't pull the shit it did, however.

They didn't matter, since they pigeon holed your character into 3 final choices that didn't line up with the character you created. It forced you to break the world/character to fit in with the ending they wanted.

That is always the trick with RPGS or games that offer multiple choices. They want to tell a specific narrative, and there is only so far they can go in giving you that choice to deviate. But my issue with the ending is that, I feel they had some higher art ambition for the ending, and it was a contradiction to the character itself. (And it should be noted, the endings they wanted weren't earned or built up to).

So that to me, is why all the choices didn't really matter. At least to me. In the end, my Shep was not my shep. It was all an illusion. I've tried to go back and play ME3 before. And while I think the gameplay and the cinematic levels were fun, I still think the overall narrative is terrible in that game. And I still think, how they gut all the world building and the other gameplay really took away from what made ME and ME2 so good. So at least to me, I feel that people put too much focus on ME3's ending. I think the whole game was kind of a mess.
 
They didn't matter, since they pigeon holed your character into 3 final choices that didn't line up with the character you created. It forced you to break the world/character to fit in with the ending they wanted.

That is always the trick with RPGS or game that offer multiple choices. They want to tell a specific narrative, and there is only so far they can go in giving you that choice to deviate. But my issue with the ending is that, I feel they had some higher art ambition for the ending, and it was a contradiction to the character itself.

So that to me, is why all the choices didn't really matter. At least to me. In the end, my Shep was not my shep. It was all an illusion.

Well, your first post implied you didn't like the story as a whole. If you just mean to say that the ending ruined everything retroactively, that's a different story. Wihether I ended up choosing the Geth fleet or the Quarian fleet didn't 'matter' in terms of how the ending went down, but I felt it mattered in the moment. It put me in a position of moral conflict that I still reflect upon to this day. That is a well done choice scenerio, imo.

But yeah, the ending buttfucked it all because of it tried to turn the conflict into something its not (from invading eldritch abominations to a organics vs synthetics thing). It's actually a very similar misstep that Korra took in season 1, where it turned from a political action thriller to a revenge story in the last two episodes.

Note to all writers: twists are well and good, but you cannot fundamentally change the nature of your conflict in the last act of your story.

Synthesis is the worst and ME3's ending made me feel something that I had never encountered in gaming before...

Massive, honest, upsetting, disappointment.

I encountered it before, but never on the scale ME brought. I had massive emotional investment in that story. And what twists the knife is that 97% of the game delivered as far as I'm concerned. It's just that last tiny bit that somehow fucks everything up. Everything.
 
I've always had a love-hate relationship with the Avatar State as a narrative device. It plays on the well worn trope of latent, uncontrollable power which is inherent to the main character. This isn't so bad in itself, but if misused, it can reduce a character to merely this mechanic. These potential drawbacks are reckoned with by The Last Airbender, as the function looks cool, and is well sewn into the very fabric of the show's mythology. The source material it draws from is uniquely represented in clear visuals, facilitated by interesting (if a bit cliche) characters; indeed the reincarnation cycle was fundamental to show's identity.

In this respect, the Avatar State is a great idea. It efficiently condenses the idea of reincarnation into a power up - a tool to be used in an action cartoon. The feats of strength it effects are fun to watch. Its failings, however, are character specific. The AS early on is assigned to represent Aang's 'Hyde'. He's a cheerful, optimistic kid aside from the lurking behemoth that awaits any thing that sufficiently pisses him off. The Avatar State is first introduced in dramatic fashion to show specifically that Aang is volatile. It's an effective scene: allowing the emotion of loss to inflame into anger, which brings the Avatar State to the surface. This particular scene is most valuable in how it sets up one of the show's themes (being forgiveness and handling emotion), but AS' debut is no less diminished. We're later informed of the particular rules surrounding the Avatar State. The stage is set, but to what end?

The major problem of the Avatar State is that it's too good, too powerful. It necessarily creates the strongest being on the planet, though the various means to bring forth this power are confused by the show. It's entirely feasible that Aang was strong enough to solo the Fire Nation right out of the iceberg, but of course that doesn't make for entirely compelling drama. The show kind-of-sort-of addresses this narrative pitfall early on in The Last Airbender's second season. An earth general, considered a brilliant if not unorthodox tactician, instructs that Aang going into the Avatar State would provide the necessary weapon of mass destruction to finally end the Fire Nation's imperialism and the world war. And to this day, I'm inclined to agree with him. The conclusion of this episode would engender a franchise defining policy of writing around the Avatar State, effectively turning a fundamental aspect of the show into an albatross that is never adequately quartered.

Understand: controlling the Avatar State is being the Avatar - and being the Avatar is broadly the ultimate objective of both Aang and Korra's journey. Virtually all of my (relatively small) problems with AtLA, and most of my very big problems with the Legend of Korra, can be set up the mantle of the Avatar State's poor employment.

In AtLA in particular, Aang only makes one honest attempt at mastering the Avatar State. It's a mismash of half thought ideas that are vacated almost immediately, but it leads to Aang's ability to control the Avatar State. And directly after, that same ability is taken from him. What follows is much fretting over Aang mastering firebending instead of mastering the Avatar State - a position he takes in fear of both its power and his destiny, which persist right up to the finale. So functionally, the Avatar State is ignored for most of the final season. This is a missed opportunity, not least of which acknowledged due to how crudely the Avatar State is re-implemented. To have Aang realize early on in season 3 that his journey lie in his mastery over himself, and not necessarily the elements he bends, would be a comfortable fit for the final season. It's supported by all the episodes of the season as it stands already, while removing some of the more unsavory palletes featured in season 3.

You can divine any number of scenarios which effectively remove AtLA's notorious deus ex machina and rock contrivance, but this is my favorite: you move the Lion Turtle scene right to the beginning of season 3 (it makes enough sense; the guy is pretty much dead). Aang's chakras are blocked so he must now find an alternative way to reconnect to his Avatar State, and this would be the perfect fix. It puts all of the onus on to Aang to master himself across the entire season, all in time for his duel of fates. This allows the tension to build alongside that journey. Now the energybending scene feels less like a formality and more of the measure of Aang's commitment to his spiritual fortitude. No rock contrivances necessary because now Aang his empowered unilaterally. No Lion Turtle bailing out our hero at the literal last moment.

As said before, these are relatively small problems to fix, and AtLA mostly stands unbothered in the pantheon of great cartoons. But how simple it would be to fix these problems show just how damning running from a fundamental pillar of the show can be, as the multiple errors of the Legend of Korra reveal.
 
I'll say what I said when you went off too hard on your Kuvira love.

Sometimes, I'm concerned for you.
It wasn't hard. There was nothing hard about it.

Send help, though.
Yes, veelk has his own headcanon with regards to the deus ex machina that was the rock. And that's fine I guess.

Unalaq was boring.

Zelda Williams, as much as I like her as a person, has given the most monotone and boring performance as Kuvira.

Rollins did well as Zaheer. Hell all the Red Lotus were fine.

Steve Blum as Amon was perfect. "I. Am the solution." SO GOOD.

Compare that to the shit with Kuvira "I always get what I want". Are you shitting me? Makes me cringe every time.
Amon.

DADDY ISSUES.
yeah yeah, you're a dog what do you know
I encountered it before, but never on the scale ME brought. I had massive emotional investment in that story. And what twists the knife is that 97% of the game delivered as far as I'm concerned. It's just that last tiny bit that somehow fucks everything up. Everything.

I wholeheartedly agree. I was in love with everything in the game up to meeting Starchild or whatever. It was so great, and we were all emotionally invested (for better or worse). Great writing for these characters then that happened. =\
 
Well, your first post implied you didn't like the story as a whole. If you just mean to say that the ending ruined everything retroactively, that's a different story. Wihether I ended up choosing the Geth fleet or the Quarian fleet didn't 'matter' in terms of how the ending went down, but I felt it mattered in the moment. It put me in a position of moral conflict that I still reflect upon to this day. That is a well done choice scenerio, imo.

But yeah, the ending buttfucked it all because of it tried to turn the conflict into something its not (from invading eldritch abominations to a organics vs synthetics thing). It's actually a very similar misstep that Korra took in season 1, where it turned from a political action thriller to a revenge story in the last two episodes.

Note to all writers: twists are well and good, but you cannot fundamentally change the nature of your conflict in the last act of your story.



I encountered it before, but never on the scale ME brought. I had massive emotional investment in that story. And what twists the knife is that 97% of the game delivered as far as I'm concerned. It's just that last tiny bit that somehow fucks everything up. Everything.


I do think the story as a whole is a clusterfuck. And it makes sense. But to be clear, I was saying the story of ME3 (the overall script for that game), i thought was awful. But the overall story across all 3 games was a mess too. Which makes sense given all the writers they kept losing and how they shifted away from the original narrative.

I still like ME and ME2 enough. But ME3s script was pretty bad front to back. The ending just killed off any interest I had in the world. I dunno what else to say. Very rare for that to happen. I usually can take bad ending, and still appreciate everything that came before it.

But I just hated how the story wrapped up, and how they forced my character into something I don't think they would have done. The starchild and that whole ending was not earned or built up to. It was just fuckin awful.

It wasn't hard. There was nothing hard about it.

Send help, though.

Amon.

DADDY ISSUES.

yeah yeah, you're a dog what do you know


I wholeheartedly agree. I was in love with everything in the game up to meeting Starchild or whatever. It was so great, and we were all emotionally invested (for better or worse). Great writing for these characters then that happened. =\

How could you love that final mission? It was so poor. Also, the Samura ninja guy with the plot armor. The way they handled the illusive man. The way they handled ME 2 characters plot arcs. So much shit is wrong with ME3. I think the problem with ME3 is that it's mostly a cinematic/linear narrative game. The level design and the progression. And bcause the story overall blows, it really isn't as good as ME1 and ME2, which had more gameplay and exploration that made it enjoyable beyond the story.
 
ED: Okay, I guess I lied when I said the discussion was played out because I have obviously kept going. In my defense, this is technically new subject matter. I promise that this time, I'll let Veelk have the last word if so desired.

This presumes that I, as the cook, am forcing anyone to accept my variant of food. This is simply not what is happening. I've stated multiple times I am indifferent to what other people choose as their particular canon. This is one misconception I really wish would stop. It is untrue and puts people in a defensive state of mind, as if I'm trying to force something on them.

I don't see why you would be the cook in the analogy anymore than you would be the customer. In any event, the analogy is not about the cook forcing the customer to eat something, it's about our use of language and how it works to communicate information with each other. A Dish Name is merely a sign which communicates meaning and information.

The term 'Eggs Benedict' signifies to us an English muffin, topped with ham, poached eggs, and Hollandaise sauce (the signified object). If we allowed cooks and customers to create and operate under their own expansive and disparate personal meanings, then such a shift at large would dilute the dish name to a point where what's being signified is no longer a shared culturally understood concept. The word itself would lose meaning and comprehension. By standing for some-thing , it cannot stand for any-thing.

It's not about you forcing something onto others directly. It's about a mode of language operation which, if used or accepted by most people, would make communication of information through language worse.

There is no 'provider' of the official canon in this analogy to the audience. Or rather, the audience themselves are the providers. They cook the food, however they want, and eat it themselves. There is no one making them eat Rachel Sandwiches if they want Reuben.

Again, the issue is not about you forcing people to do something regarding food or media. It's about people using language to signify ideas or concepts and having natural expectations about what their language expresses and how it will be understood. You cannot just cook a steak and call it Eggs Benedict. Well you can, but no one would understand that as a correct or useful expression of language. Yes, if everyone suddenly decided to call steaks Eggs Benedict, then our expression of language would change, but the fact that language is mutable in this way does not imply that this kind of change should be preferred or accepted. Language is and should be self policing; it develops to help facilitate the exchange of information, not impede it.

Now, if I consider Irish Eggs Benedict THE definitive Eggs Benedict sandwich for me. I could go my whole life without ever giving particular reverence to the ordinary Eggs Benedict, even refusing to eat it in favor of Irish Eggs Benedict. If it is all I eat, to the point that it is the first thing I think of when I hear the generic phrase "Eggs Benedict", then for all intents and purposes, Irish Eggs Benedict is the canon Eggs Benedict for me. It's not just the 'preferred one' it is the conceptualization of Eggs Benedict as a default.

I'm not disputing that someone could do this, I'm just saying that this is not an ideal outcome or a beneficial use of language. This kind of behavior cuts against the entire purpose and benefits of shared language. It's why the people who came up with their 'preferred' style of Eggs Benedict created new names to signify those concepts. They didn't simply call their creation Eggs Benedict, they called it Irish Eggs Benedict, because as an operation of language this was more effective at communicating the desired information across.

Now, for the purposes of common discourse, normal Eggs Benedict is the one most people are familiar with. The primary objection I see from the other side is that if I take Irish Eggs Benedict as canon, then it will cause confusion because I will be talking about IEB as if it's ordinary EB. Well, I can't speak for other people, but I've never encountered this to be a problem. All it requires is the common sense knowledge that the source will be the most well known all types, so I use qualifiers acknowledging that Irish Eggs Benedict is a variant, even though I personally consider it the definitive model.

Well, now I'm hungry.

This is where it breaks down. If you use the term Eggs Benedict to refer to Irish Eggs Benedict, then you will be signifying the wrong concept to other people. Your use of language will fail to express the actual information and meaning that you intended to get across. The cook will prepare the wrong meal for you because your use of language when ordering was not compatible. How could this not be a problem?

Now if you are not using the term Eggs Benedict to refer to Irish Eggs Benedict because you know that everyone else will make this mistake, then all you are doing is reinforcing the existing use of language by adhering to the accepted nomenclature. If you never actually use the term Eggs Benedict to refer to Irish Eggs Benedict, then as an instrument of language you're not actually doing anything differently; language has to be expressed externally.

You might protest that, yes, you do believe that's what the word means, you just don't use it because no one would understand what you're saying. But that's the whole point of language in the first place, we communicate under a shared system of signified meanings based on communal understanding, not personal. You can personally believe that Eggs Benedict means steak, but as part of language, that's not what Eggs Benedict means, and if you don't respond to language using this belief, then linguistically you don't really believe it either.

One can think that Irish Eggs Benedict is the best kind and that it should be the default serving or understanding of Eggs Benedict, but this is less about language and more about opinions. It is not the same thing as what Eggs Benedict actually means in our language and culture; what Eggs Benedict expresses and what is understood by its use.
 
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