I would like to see more moe characters in anme who are strong and "mature".

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There hasn't been a good anime season since that one that had Gundum Wing, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star and Gurren Lagann.
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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What?

Nakamura was pretty moe.
 
Shaanyboi said:
Motoko-ghost-in-the-shell-28282032-570-800.jpg
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In what world is Motoko moe? ... Moetoko. Huh.
 
Crab said:
Doesn't have anything to do with femininity or masculinity. I personally dislike it because a) it encourages the infantilization of those who engage in the medium, and b) it frequently sexualizes that infantilization, which is unavoidably creepy. The overwhelming impression I get from people who engage in moe media is that they are seriously lacking in emotional maturity, and a substantial subset harbours rather unhealthy attitudes towards pre-teen girls.
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I'm tempted to avatar quote someone...but I won't
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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Are we really using Aku no Hana as the hallmark of realistic art style?
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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No-one is saying anything has to be realistic, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. Unrealistic things simply cannot be evaluated (fully and I would argue meaningfully) outside of a real world context since they were both designed by and designed for people who inhabit it
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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I didn't say I didn't like it because it was unrealistic; you're deliberately dodging the point. It is perfectly possible to have unrealistic designs that are simultaneously non-infantilizing. As for the second, if you think the characters from K-On! would actually function in a genuine human situation you're perilously close to becoming an example of how moe robs viewers of the capacity to have any emotional maturity.
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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Not all un-realistic anime have to be moe, and also Aku no Hana's problem wasn't that it was realistic but that it used rotoscope in a bad way.
 
Tohsaka said:
Not everything needs to be realistic; it's anime. Aku no Hana is a good example of why realistic art styles don't work. The girls also aren't all idiots or completely helpless like you seem to think they are, I'm wondering if you've actually watched the show or are just basing your opinion on what you've seen other people say.
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Aku no Hana was great. Screw the haters.
 
As pretty much every thread concerning this subject has shown, it's likely not a good idea to center a discussion on a vague and contested term. Otherwise you have everyone talking about completely different things using the same word.

Language only serves its purpose as a tool for communication when the participants share the same definitions.

Ferrio said:
But then you're twisting the definition to suit your needs.
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I think in that case it describes almost every person who has used the word. The definition seemingly changes with every post. You can't reasonably discuss something when the participants can't settle on what that something is exactly.
 
Tohsaka said:
No, I'm just trying to make the case for why it's not always a good idea to strive for realism with regards to art style in anime.
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Man, you do not want to see the realistic art style being used by the new animation team for Log Horizon Season II for when they want to show the characters in the real world. It looks so bed. It's basically 3D is ugly 2D is beautiful to the extreme.
 
The Technomancer said:
No-one is saying anything has to be realistic, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. Unrealistic things simply cannot be evaluated (fully and I would argue meaningfully) outside of a real world context since they were both designed by and designed for people who inhabit it
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Crab mentioned that the keions weren't how high school girls actually looked, which is why I mentioned realism.
Crab said:
I didn't say I didn't like it because it was unrealistic; you're deliberately dodging the point. It is perfectly possible to have unrealistic designs that are simultaneously non-infantilizing. As for the second, if you think the characters from K-On! would actually function in a genuine human situation you're perilously close to becoming an example of how moe robs viewers of the capacity to have any emotional maturity.
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I don't think the show infantilizes the girls at all. The show just doesn't really have much in the way of drama, so we don't get to see how they'd react if something were to go horribly wrong. There are plenty of other shows where that sort of shit happens, so I for one am glad K-ON! is free of it. They probably don't act like real high school girls, but I doubt that's what the author was going for. It's just a fun show, I really think you are over-analyzing it.
 
DigitalRicket said:
I can enjoy the moe style here and there (Lucky Star, K-On) but this post nails it for me. The style really harps on animating girls into a pre-teen mold that not all find "cute" but rather full on creepy. Just look at Senran Kagura and its basic premise of having the player rip the clothes off of moe styled girls... and it's frightening how popular those games are.

Also you end up getting people acting like this in public thinking it's cute...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLmD_69pXpk
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oh shit oh shit

thought i made it out of that 2014 cringe compilation thread

guess i couldn't escape it
 
Avixph said:
Not all un-realistic anime have to be moe, and also Aku no Hana's problem wasn't that it was realistic but that it used rotoscope in a bad way.
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I don't think all un-realistic anime has to be moe, (and I wouldn't really want it to be) I'm just trying to explain why it works for certain shows like K-ON and isn't a problem.
Trojita said:
Man, you do not want to see the realistic art style being used by the new animation team for Log Horizon Season II for when they want to show the characters in the real world. It looks so bed. It's basically 3D is ugly 2D is beautiful to the extreme.
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Yeah, I really don't care for the new season in general, especially what DEEN did to the art.
 
Trojita said:
Man, you do not want to see the realistic art style being used by the new animation team for Log Horizon Season II for when they want to show the characters in the real world. It looks so bed. It's basically 3D is ugly 2D is beautiful to the extreme.
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That's pretty much what Log Horizon is about though. However much they struggle in new world, their past lives were almost unanimously much worse than they are in mmo land. Although i liked the art. I expected them to just make everything look the same.
 
Tohsaka said:
Crab mentioned that the keions weren't how high school girls actually looked, which is why I mentioned realism.


I don't think the show infantilizes the girls at all. The show just doesn't really have much in the way of drama, so we don't get to see how they'd react if something were to go horribly wrong. There are plenty of other shows where that sort of shit happens, so I for one am glad K-ON! is free of it. They probably don't act like real high school girls, but I doubt that's what the author was going for. It's just a fun show, I really think you are over-analyzing it.
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Oh okay, I see where the miscommunication is. No-one says they have to be realistic, but they can be (and to a degree its impossible not to) evaluated in the ways in which they're unrealistic
 
Trojita said:
Man, you do not want to see the realistic art style being used by the new animation team for Log Horizon Season II for when they want to show the characters in the real world. It looks so bed. It's basically 3D is ugly 2D is beautiful to the extreme.
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Can you post some pics?
 
DigitalRicket said:
I can enjoy the moe style here and there (Lucky Star, K-On) but this post nails it for me.
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There's no such thing as "moe style". Since both are by KyoAni, K-On! and Hyouka have very similar character designs, but I doubt anyone is going to describe Hyouka as a "moe show" with a "moe style".

And again we can bring up Kaiji, because you so can't lump that show in the same boat as Lucky Star because it is the greatest counter example for these topics.

You know it's odd, it's always K-On! and Lucky Star mentioned. I mean K-On! is from 2009, you'd think more recent example would be given, or maybe the problem really isn't as big as some people make it out to be.
 
BGBW said:
There's no such thing as "moe style". Since both are by KyoAni, K-On! and Hyouka have very similar character designs, but I doubt anyone is going to describe Hyouka as a "moe show" with a "moe style".

And again we can bring up Kaiji, because you so can't lump that show in the same boat as Lucky Star because it is the greatest counter example for these topics.

You know it's odd, it's always K-On! and Lucky Star mentioned. I mean K-On! is from 2009, you'd think more recent example would be given, or maybe the problem really isn't as big as some people make it out to be.
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says the guy with the moe anime avatar


i actually love kyoani shows, please don't hate me
 
HolyBaikal said:
Perhaps that. Some otaku find a woman who can take care of and protect them moe.

I think moe traits are any pretty much any personality or physical traits that otaku find endearing. Many men in Japan are scared by traditional gender roles, like being a big strong man who makes a paycheck and can take care of a family. A lot of men in Japan are scared of that gender role, and that's why a lot of men in Japan are still single.

So a lot of men might not find that not fun. And instead of working woman who doesn't care how much money he makes or how strong he is, very moe and comforting. A lot of men in Japan use moe to help escape from their gender roles. Of feeling like they can't be in a relationship if they don't make enough money.

A woman who can not only take care of herself, but also a man, would be very moe to many men.

Unfortunately, many otaku fall back on traditional gender roles even more for comfort. Instead of empowering women and disregarding gender roles. Many people in otaku culture, and "nerd" cultures around the world, do so by trying to put women even father below them, than taking comfort in letting go. And a lot of problems in moe culture come from that. Men who become misogynistic because they've "failed" their gender role, instead of letting go of it, and directing their frustrations upon the gender role itself instead of women.
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Once your definition goes this far, you're talking about pretty much any character. People find different things endearing. If you want maturity, watch more mature series.

Otherwise, moe is a specific set of aesthetic and narrative tropes bundled together. If you like that, that's fine, but you should realize it's at odds with the thread's premise.
 
HolyBaikal said:
Hmmm, I disagree. I think moe characters can be very mature.

But I guess the word moe means different things to different people.

I don't think that moe necessarily means making people want to protect them, either. And I think that portraying women as someone who needs protecting is a negative thing. Kind of like the Damsel in Distress trope in video games.
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mh..okay I'll try it:

Mio from K-on is moe like hell...but she is still a mature character who knows what she wants, overcomes her fears. so would mio not be a little bit like what you think off? or the girls from shirobako? or are they not moe enough?

because if we said they are moe..but they also manage a stress full job everyday..then they are moe but mature and strong in my sense.

lol. just saw the thread already has five pages..sorry..
 
If you mean mature and strong characters in a series with a moe art style, that already exists. If you mean moe characters as it is, well, that kind of implies there's some kind of consistent definition of moe in the first place.

It's a meaningless term at this point.

And seriously, I really think you need to take a break, Baikal. If not from anime, from forums.
 
BGBW said:
There hasn't been a good anime season since that one that had Gundum Wing, Cowboy Bebop, Outlaw Star and Gurren Lagann.
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And honestly those don't really count as anime, so it's socially acceptable to watch them, because only degenerates watch anime.
 
Off the top of my head I can think of at least two "moe" characters that fit OP's description:

Yomiko Readman from R.O.D

634548-yomiko_buys_books.jpg


Nene Romanova from Bubblegum Crisis

386166.jpg
 
sonicmj1 said:
In that case, moe is pretty much everything. Unless you have a more specific definition of endearing.
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You're right, it could be. I think in anime and the otaku fandom, it tends to be more feminine things. Yangire may not be seen as traditionally feminine... but a lot of times Yangire characters are feminine in others ways.

It also tends to be personality traits that many people in the otaku community find endearing.

sonicmj1 said:
What is the difference between between a strong, independent woman and a strong, independent moe woman?
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Hmmm, she would probably have a lot of things about her that make her cute.
Like, maybe purple hair?

Or maybe a very strong person, with a few flaws that make her a more realistic person and more cute. Liking longing for a lost loved one.

Furude Rika was a strong girl. But she has a lot of moe in her personality. She was wide and would think a lot of things through ahead of time, like an adult. But she also liked acting cute, and longed for friendship and a happy life. That was very moe.
 
HolyBaikal said:
Hmmm, she would probably have a lot of things about her that make her cute.
Like, maybe purple hair?

Or maybe a very strong person, with a few flaws that make her a more realistic person and more cute. Liking longing for a lost loved one.

Furude Rika was a strong girl. But she has a lot of moe in her personality. She was wide and would think a lot of things through ahead of time, like an adult. But she also liked acting cute, and longed for friendship and a happy life. That was very moe.
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image.php


purple hair, you say?

hmmmmmm?
 
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