RpgN
Junior Member
Gotcha. What you're saying matches with Mesoian's reply. Yes, I hardly visited her threads. Sorry about that, it wasn't intentional in a negative way.
"I have...letters from dozens of women who've abandoned their dream" (Brianna Wu)
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Gotcha. What you're saying matches with Mesoian's reply. Yes, I hardly visited her threads. Sorry about that, it wasn't intentional in a negative way.
They exist. They just don't count.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You responded well to the answers you got. If everyone reacted like you did, most of us wouldn't be so touchy about it. But for every person who genuinely is asking questions, another half dozen are just "asking questions"
I am wrong! I admit it. 40% of PS4 gamers are female. I am now going to put I play Killzone and Destiny on my Tinder profile so I can attract all the ladies. Thanks guys!
This is why gaming is stereotyped lol.
#Justaskingquestions
Staying up to date with this stuff is bad for your health.
It certainly is.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's not that it's a "sensitive topic". It's that the question is IRRELEVANT and I would question the motives of anyone who comes in such a thread "just asking questions" when those questions are completely irrelevant.
Not to mention, you're lying; you actually posted in a thread specifically about Zoë Quinn before, repeatedly even. So why are you playing dumb now?
NickFire
Member
Seems clear he feels she is doing more harm than good by keeping the story going for her own personal gain, but that does not automatically translate into supporting what people have done to her. Suggesting he should be banned here is trying to use intimidation to silence someone solely for not falling in line with your beliefs.
Isn't this board a place for discussion? People should not be banned simply for not agreeing with everyone else in a thread.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What the hell are you even on about at this point? You were shown statistics that lots of women are playing on consoles. You rejected these statistics because you don't see women at the stores you go to buying the games you play
But people did explain why you have no right to that information and why it doesn't matter. You just refuse to listen.
The following is presented without comment, with emphasis added by me:
You did also stop by a gamergate thread to enquire about her.
Stop obsessing about her personal life and move the fuck on.
Anton Sugar
Member
No harm done!
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
That's...kind of the reason there's a general moratorium on GG discussion. This one has at least somewhat managed to remain "on topic" of female involvement in the medium on either an enthusiast or professional level, but I don't know how much more gas is in it
Gaming is stereotyped because of idiot guys like you. If anything, you sound ashamed you play video games.
Ohhhh
Michanical
Member
His logic: 80% of women between the age of 18-30 that I know play console games. Therefor, 80% of all girls play console games.
How can he be having such a hard time finding women that like video games when 80% of them do! Sounds like a problem with him!
Alright, alright, let's be fair now.
Honestly, the blinders argument is pretty common and I don't fault most people for thinking that because they don't see it happening, girls don't play games. It's not an uncommon mindset to have. I'd be lying if I said that I, myself, never thought that way.
Ignoring actual quantified census data on sex demographics and data, however, is not a good look.
So you're telling me 40% of people who play PSN and Live are female? Hahahahahahaha wow I am done.
Gamers are stereotyped for a reason.
Nintendo said in late 2009 that 2.34 million females played the 360 and PS3: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Wand...Next_Frontier__Female_Gaming_Demographics.php
So you are telling me this number grew to 18 million in 2 years? There is something clearly wrong with Newzoo's data, cause I trust Nintendo more because I saw the Wii's success with my own eyes.
If you think there was a 16 million increase tell me what did it. The failures that were Move and Kinect? Lol.
Just because she is exposing harassment in the Internet and has to walk around with security, she is an opportunist? So, by the same definition, if you had to protect your life the same way and wanted to expose all the attacks in hopes someone does something about it, would you also be an opportunist?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its darkly hilarious though, because the perception that women don't play games helps foster an environment in which, for various reasons, women feel uncomfortable being a part of.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Totes.
And if you actually have the conversation with a woman about playing video games, you tend to find that they either do in a very casual manner or they did, but it became "not the thing to do" due to perceived social normatives.
Best match in a fighting game I've ever had was to a woman at Otakon. I'll never forget it. Down to the fucking wire.
silvermember
Banned
Sure you are.
Let's assume you are, they are a lot of self-hating people out there. They are some women that believe the current traditional roles should not change, the point being just because you claim to be a woman doesn't make you any less bias or prejudice.
Prax
Member
You need to maybe .. stop trying too hard. You're sounding wheezy and desperate.
Some of the hardest core gamers I know are female, but it skews heavily into fantasy RPGs, I think. lol Some are very into FPSs too, but bleh. Definitely the fantasy RPGs are the way to go for me and many others.
It's such a shame this thing is an ongoing headache and source of anxiety for females in the industry. To the detriment of everyone, too.
I'm glad there are women who are still hanging in there despite the hostile environment, but I hope it hasn't caused them to internalize hate for other women who seem to be "rocking the boat", which I think unfortunately does happen (seeing as female GGers or shielders exist).
CambriaRising
Member
Well. There it is.
I just wish we weren't at a place where you have to fight so hard to attempt them though.
Try and fail, okay. Try it and get bored of it, sure. Try it and succeed, GREAT! But knowing we live in a place where even trying just seems like a waste of time and effort due to the fact that the people who would be your consumers are looking for reasons to actively hate you just....saddens me.
And I don't fault any woman for looking at all of this mess and walking past game development, because from a top down look, it really does look like the worst thing in the world.
Can't tell if sarcastic but if even if so, you're still right.
How about the toxicity Liana Kerzner experienced with Feminist Frequency?
Here is the audio of her piece on her experience with them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O0JvjKEuF4
There is plenty of "skeevy" in every community. There are extremes of any issue the overt misogynists and the hyper feminists and both can get lost imo.
The idealist in me wants to agree.
The realist in me understands why people give up when they're faced with nonstop harassment and hostility from those who devote themselves to making sure those dreams don't become reality. Some can push through it and that's great, but it's never something I'd expect from everyone.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Anyone actually surprised here? At least this thread can hopefully continue without "BUT SRSLY 6 GUYS?" derails.
NickFire
Member
I think a problem when the stats are thrown about as pertains to percentages of console gamers being male / female, is that to date the big 3 have not broken down their players by gender to the best of my knowledge. That makes it really, really hard for someone to believe what they have seen for 20, 30 years, etc., is not representative of the real world. Just because someone says your eyes deceive you, does not mean they are right (or that you are). Studies can be flawed for countless reasons. I'm not saying these particular studies are or are not, cause heck I don't know. I'm just saying after countless midnight launches and trips to video game retailers, I can understand why someone thinks the ratio if no where near as equal as the studies suggest.
If Sony, MS and Nintendo have released stats I'd be interested to read them, and would consider those pretty authoritative. Would be cool if someone got them to release them by E3.
I do know quite a few female Kingdom Hearts players because that appeals to them.
To expand demographics we have to expand and appeal to them rather than pretend The Order: 1886, Mass Effect, and Destiny do.
Michanical
Member
No, actually. We arent saying that. We are saying that 40% of people who play PS3/PS4 and Xbox 360/One are female. It doesnt say anything about PSN or Live. You are making an intellectually dishonest point.
The statistics Ive provided, from TWO different, independent sources, are for 2014. One of them even describes the massive growth between 2011 and 2014. You are using outdated statistics. Give me something a little more recent. Bonus points if you can provide one that isnt based on some random websites internet survey.
Your argument is a fallacy for two reason. Note: If your argument is fallacious, it means you arent actually proving anything.
1) Its a type of ad hominem fallacy to discount data because you dont like the source.
2) You are pigeonholing women as liking motion controls. How many facebook games do you know have motion controls?
Also, what does Nintendos success in 2009 have anything to do with demographic data from 2014? How does Nintendos make it more accurate than numbers from last year?
And I think that's happening, in very small degrees, and almost never in the AAA scene. But I personally know more women than men who played through the KH games. In a way, it's really sad that japanese game development has gone the way it has because that inclusionary nature their AAA titles had has been swept away in favor of quick cash grabs on mobile devices, or worse, they've gone full otaku-culture and most AAA titles aren't things that anyone wants to touch, let alone women.
I hope this doesn't sound as promotion (which is why I won't even say the name of my company), but the first thing I said to the women who are working with us (and the ones who have worked with us in the past) was that they were free to point out where we could improve in terms of company's culture and/or game story (such as avoiding tropes). They have already said a lot of interesting stuff. One of them is an artist and she suggested something that could be better in the story, so we have changed it. I am doing everything I can and I also know there is a lot I can still learn. My point is: anything we can do to help this industry be more welcoming is something we should do. In my case, I have a company. But consumers, press... everyone can do something.
I am done posting in this thread.
Michanical
Member
I totally trust Nintendo on the demographics of its competitors.
Anyway, there are a lot of reasons we're seeing more female console gamers. Gaming is becoming more mainstream and accepted, PC and Mobile have grown a lot since 2009 and can serve as gateways, the Wii's success retained some folks, people are more willing to identify themselves as women with how female gamers are seen as more normal, there is a larger diversity of games to play than there ever has been, etc.
Plus, more children are growing up with gaming. I wasn't even allowed near video games before a certain age. My nephew was playing since he was a toddler.
That is not proof for "a greater cultural backlash". There is some who argue that gamergate is a new front in the "culture wars" but I don't really agree with that claim (hell I don't even agree with the term "culture wars"). Also people complained about women with short hair and masculine clothing back in the 20's , this isn't new ground.
Yet again what you posted was:
Which still remains the dumbest thing I've read in this thread, even if it is garnering some serious competition. You stated that the crux of the issue was down to a choice of what sort of woman you find aesthetically pleasing and you still haven't been able to prove that assertion. What you've written since that post is not what I'm arguing about, I even agree that a lot of it is intertwined. What I took umbrage with was the initial post, how it reduced women to objects, how it talked about women having sex with men as a quality of those women and how it reduced men to (straight) slobbering idiots who makes ideological decisions based on what their dick is thinking. Gamergate isn't about your sexual of aesthetical preferences with regards to women which is what your post asserted.
RpgN
Junior Member
Did you like read what I typed in this thread and how that matches with my post history?
A) I followed the story around the time it happened and a couple of months after that.
B) I asked this question before and didn't get a reply forgetting which thread it was. Well it turns out my question was in a GG thread. Only once I visited one of the threads and didn't feel like reading hundred of pages to ask that question. Stop by a thread clearly means the same as following the thread and reading all the pages. Sue me!
C) I already said I was negative about her when I only had the information when it first happened and that I feel bad about that now.
D) I already mentioned I was curious, I dislike cheaters, and it is very important to me in private life. I will think negatively of anyone who cheates regardless of gender. At that time, I was extra negative because I believed everything the ex boyfriend mentioned.
I only had 1 discussion about her in one thread in my entire post history that you pulled off and I only asked about her once afterwards after I had a disccussion about her that one time.
So tell me this.
How does that make me obssessed with her exactly?
I can't believe the lengths you went to try and paint me in a negative light. To try and make me look like I'm pretending with everything that I have typed about her.
This is the third thread I mentioned something about Zoe because somebody mentioned her and I got reminded to ask about her.
Natureboy99
Banned
This is what I don't understand. If hundreds of "woman" games get made, all the big blockbusters are still going to be there. Nobody is taking anything away. It's like getting mad that women exist.
Team Filler
Member
Thanks for the link. I'm not done listening but what I have heard so far is interesting.
RpgN
Junior Member
How is that lying? I followed the story around the time it happened and a couple of months later. THIS IS THE ONE TIME I FOLLOWED AND CONTRIBUTED TO THE DISCUSSION which I already mentioned here. Look at the date when I replied for the love of god.
No girls allowed. For real.
Like, the call that thinks like FemFreq will make people censor games and stop making the same products is asinine in a year where we have had more commercial game releases than ever before.
Exactly. I ask the women I am friends with to also point me what I can do better, both personally and professionally.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
My initial post made the issue seem too simplistic, sure. But there was no objectification in my statements, I'm presenting the traditional side as accepting objectification and the progressive, modern side as rightfully rejecting it.
People who have well-thought out reasoning for getting involved with or sympathizing with GG are the minority. Most are, in fact, slobbering idiots who believe that all depictions of women should match their pornographic fantasies, and become enraged when confronted with something different.
Michanical
Member
Can we cut out this witch-hunt now? RpgN seems to just be genuinely curious. This isn't something I'm proud of, but I love to hear my girlfriend gossip her co-workers. I assume her question comes from that same kind of curiosity I have.
It's more than that. They are especially upset when games come out that may cater to different demographics. Check out the "Life is Strange" steam forums or, jesus, the Gone Home controversy.
LoveCake
Member
How this ever went from a theory about Quinn & Grayson having a relationship, to a generalization to threatening to attack & rape women in the gaming industry simply boggles the mind.
The original Q&G issue as a singular event did need to be resolved from a journalistic point, but for it to then escalate to targeting a entire gender is well, what can you say.
I have chatted to Brianna on Twitter & we seem to get on, i have mentioned Gamergate things to her & she has gave her point of view, but this whole feminist movement is going to destroy the gaming industry is simply never going to happen, Tecmo are not going to stop making DoA games, R* are not going to stop making GTA games, i am not saying that female developers are just going to target female gamers, however there is a market for that, i think i read a few months ago that the gender divide is 50/50 male & female, some people love certain types of games & hate others, but people have a choice of what games they want to buy & play.
I once went to a event where they had The Frag Dolls & there were five or six of them all playing different games & there was a line of guys waiting to play them at whichever game & the girls won about 90% of the time, now i'm not saying this is sexist, but proves that women certain women as well as men are very good at games & also love playing them.
I have read that Nintendo have a lot of women at their first party studios making, building & designing games, how anyone can say they want to deny a whole gender from gaming is simply beyond me.
I would rather have one Brianna Wu then ten Peter Molyneux's, now have a played Brianna's game or Quinn's, no i haven't & the reason is i know from looking & reading about them that they are not the game i would enjoy playing, in the same way i wouldn't buy a JRPG or a Sports game, but do i think that women should not be allowed to create games, NO.
I wonder if somebody can interview Brianna Wu on behalf of NeoGaf?
The original Q&G issue as a singular event did need to be resolved from a journalistic point, but for it to then escalate to targeting a entire gender is well, what can you say.
I have chatted to Brianna on Twitter & we seem to get on, i have mentioned Gamergate things to her & she has gave her point of view, but this whole feminist movement is going to destroy the gaming industry is simply never going to happen, Tecmo are not going to stop making DoA games, R* are not going to stop making GTA games, i am not saying that female developers are just going to target female gamers, however there is a market for that, i think i read a few months ago that the gender divide is 50/50 male & female, some people love certain types of games & hate others, but people have a choice of what games they want to buy & play.
I once went to a event where they had The Frag Dolls & there were five or six of them all playing different games & there was a line of guys waiting to play them at whichever game & the girls won about 90% of the time, now i'm not saying this is sexist, but proves that women certain women as well as men are very good at games & also love playing them.
I have read that Nintendo have a lot of women at their first party studios making, building & designing games, how anyone can say they want to deny a whole gender from gaming is simply beyond me.
I would rather have one Brianna Wu then ten Peter Molyneux's, now have a played Brianna's game or Quinn's, no i haven't & the reason is i know from looking & reading about them that they are not the game i would enjoy playing, in the same way i wouldn't buy a JRPG or a Sports game, but do i think that women should not be allowed to create games, NO.
I wonder if somebody can interview Brianna Wu on behalf of NeoGaf?
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