Doctor Who Off-Season | Hey Missy, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind
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Yeah, I heard about it a while ago, so pumped for more Missy. In my ideal world Michelle Gomez as The Mistress would be The Doctor's next companion. Moffat has been recently talking about fans wanting an off-world traveller, though I don't think he would make her it unfortunately. Well, I hope she really messes with Clara, we need some permanent damage done to the Doc.
I've been shamelessly wasting some time online instead of working, and I decided to take a look at the original poem by Goethe called 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice' (which should be very familiar to anyone who has ever seen the Mickey Mouse version), because I expect that at least the themes of that poem will reflect some of what that episode will be about. You can find the poem here: http://german.about.com/library/blgzauberl.htm (both in the original German and an English translation, but it's a bit too long to quote here).
A summary stolen from Wikipedia:
Now, I've been speculating a bit on what that poem mind mean for the first two episodes. My first instinct is simply that the sorcerer is the Doctor, and the apprentice is Clara (and the Master the witch, and her familiar Clara, the Doctor or a new character). However, some of the wording in the poem is interesting here. For the full poem click the link above, but I've quoted some interesting parts here:
Now we know the opening two-parter is a Master story, and the fact that the word Master is used several times in the poem must have been noticed by Moffat. For the record, the apprentice refers to the sorcerer as his old Master, but he tries to become the new Master when the sorcerer is away. The sorcerer later refers to himself as 'the real Master' when he fixes the apprentice's mistakes. It's also interesting to read that the apprentice wants to use the sorcerers powers to create and command his own slaves - which is what the Master always tried to do, especially in the classic series (and often through hypnosis or other forms of mind control). Also note that the apprentice wants to use these powers to do some 'witching'.
We don't know how closely the story of these episodes will follow the finale of last season, but the Master tried to give the Doctor his own army, which is essentially the same kind of army the Master always used in his schemes. This already feels close to the essence of the poem, except that the Master (the sorcerer) willingly gives the Doctor (the apprentice) his powers, and the Doctor realizes that the fact that he doesn't need that kind of power is what makes him more than the Master's apprentice.
All that doesn't mean anything of course. You could put any of the leading characters in any of the roles and think of a working story. I just thought it was interesting to look at the poem that probably inspired Moffat for at least the first half of the opener, and tried to share some elements that might be interesting.
I wish I could say something more meaningful, but I should probably get back to work first. Maybe someone here has an interesting interpretation of how that poem might relate to the show, or maybe someone can think of some essential piece of literature relating to 'the witch's familiar' (I tried to find something, but I couldn't).
A summary stolen from Wikipedia:
Now, I've been speculating a bit on what that poem mind mean for the first two episodes. My first instinct is simply that the sorcerer is the Doctor, and the apprentice is Clara (and the Master the witch, and her familiar Clara, the Doctor or a new character). However, some of the wording in the poem is interesting here. For the full poem click the link above, but I've quoted some interesting parts here:
Now we know the opening two-parter is a Master story, and the fact that the word Master is used several times in the poem must have been noticed by Moffat. For the record, the apprentice refers to the sorcerer as his old Master, but he tries to become the new Master when the sorcerer is away. The sorcerer later refers to himself as 'the real Master' when he fixes the apprentice's mistakes. It's also interesting to read that the apprentice wants to use the sorcerers powers to create and command his own slaves - which is what the Master always tried to do, especially in the classic series (and often through hypnosis or other forms of mind control). Also note that the apprentice wants to use these powers to do some 'witching'.
We don't know how closely the story of these episodes will follow the finale of last season, but the Master tried to give the Doctor his own army, which is essentially the same kind of army the Master always used in his schemes. This already feels close to the essence of the poem, except that the Master (the sorcerer) willingly gives the Doctor (the apprentice) his powers, and the Doctor realizes that the fact that he doesn't need that kind of power is what makes him more than the Master's apprentice.
All that doesn't mean anything of course. You could put any of the leading characters in any of the roles and think of a working story. I just thought it was interesting to look at the poem that probably inspired Moffat for at least the first half of the opener, and tried to share some elements that might be interesting.
I wish I could say something more meaningful, but I should probably get back to work first. Maybe someone here has an interesting interpretation of how that poem might relate to the show, or maybe someone can think of some essential piece of literature relating to 'the witch's familiar' (I tried to find something, but I couldn't).
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Banned
Jenna Coleman and Michelle Gomez have been spotted filming for the opening two-parter in Tenerife.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
They've done a really good job as of lately from keeping spoilers leaking out to the public. I'm not sure if I've seen any for Series 9.
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Banned
All we really know is stuff that we've officially been told, some very minor bits of information picked up from the one or two limited bits of filming we've actually been able to see, and stuff that people are guessing or putting together from the above -
the opening two-parter being partially set on Karn because of the casting of Claire Higgins, etc.
It's worth pointing out that they did a very good job of clamping down on the spoilers last year too. A few episode titles leaked early on in production, but aside from that we didn't hear much until the episodes were out of the production team's hands and Marcelo Camargo was able to fuck everything right up.
She lives!!
paradox121
Member
Im probably in the minority but I felt the first Dark Eyes was amazing and it's kinda fallen off since. 2 and 3 just felt less cohesive and a bit all over the place, as great as Alex Macqueen is. I think the biggest problem for me is that Liv Chenka is just dull as dishwater.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm with you on this actually. Wasn't that big a fan of Dark Eyes 2, and to be honest - I still haven't even finished 3. Got through the first part and just put it aside. Wasn't unhappy with it. Just figured I'd eventually get around to the other parts later.
That I still haven't probably says something.
http://twitter.com/Gina_Beck/status/570689521219731456
Peter and Jenna are looking mighty fine in Tenerife. Makes me long for summer because it means warm weather and because then it will not be long until the start of series 9. Anyway, it's nice to finally see some signs of filming, they've been super good at keeping out of public so far.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
New jacket, huh?
Eh, maybe not in costume in that photo. It's a lovely jacket, but doesn't feel very "Twelfth Doctor" to me. Perhaps if he's wearing it buttoned-up while filming..hmm...who knows?
While there's no footage of Peter filming, there is footage of Jenna as Clara in (mostly) the clothes she's wearing here, so maybe that really is what The Doctor looks like in this episode. Or Peter's having a day off. God, I'm starved for DW-speculation, heh.
ClivePwned
Member
Exxilons? Death to the Daleks AKA Daleks with Machine Guns.
Based on Series 8, 12 is a bit more casual in his wardrobe, which I absolutely don't mind. That being said, that's probably not Capaldi in costume.
You could be right here, nice job! The eyes certainly look similar. I'm almost at that story on my current classic rewatch too, so I should have seen it again before the season starts.
So I'm watching The Time Monster (third Doctor) at the moment. I remember not liking it the first time I watched it. I was tired of the Third Doctor, and the Three Doctors comes right after this one so I was anxious for Time Monster to be over to get to Throughton's return. But (possibly because I really started to appreciate the Third Doctor on this rewatch) man, The Time Monster actually is incredibly fun. It's completely ridiculous, the plot doesn't make sense whatsoever, but damn if there aren't a lot of fun setpieces. It feels really close to Moffat's version of Doctor Who in a lot of ways.
I just watched episode 4, and that episode had the best Master/Doctor interplay in ages. Completely mental, very funny. The Master is taking off for Atlantis, so the Doctor tries to follow him by parking his Tardis in the Master's Tardis. However, that means that the Master's Tardis is in the Doctor's Tardis as well. So it's a Tardis in a Tardis in a Tardis, and so on. What follows is a long scene of the Master and the Doctor trying to out-irritate each other from inside their respective Tardises. It's great, and this is probably the scene I'd show people if they would ask me what the classic Master was like.
It's easy for me to adapt to Classic Who (and I guess I prefer it over the modern version in some ways), but I can see how it's not for everyone. But the comedy in this feels very modern. The Master has so many great lines here. You can definitely sense Missy in this story more than any other classic Master story. It's sad to know that Delgado passed away not long after this story (there's just one story with Delgado left after this one), because he just keeps getting better and better.
Sorry for gushing, but I'm completely thrown by how much I'm enjoying this story. I remembered this as one of those utterly crap stories, but I was completely wrong. As long as you're willing to forgive the utterly bonkers plot there's a lot of fun things going on in this one. Also Benton gets turned into a baby at one point.
Edit: Oops, didn't realize I made the last post in this thread, sorry for the double post.
Edit2: Found a youtube link for the Master/Doctor scene I was describing, in case anyone's interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahl3R2a2wuY
I just watched episode 4, and that episode had the best Master/Doctor interplay in ages. Completely mental, very funny. The Master is taking off for Atlantis, so the Doctor tries to follow him by parking his Tardis in the Master's Tardis. However, that means that the Master's Tardis is in the Doctor's Tardis as well. So it's a Tardis in a Tardis in a Tardis, and so on. What follows is a long scene of the Master and the Doctor trying to out-irritate each other from inside their respective Tardises. It's great, and this is probably the scene I'd show people if they would ask me what the classic Master was like.
It's easy for me to adapt to Classic Who (and I guess I prefer it over the modern version in some ways), but I can see how it's not for everyone. But the comedy in this feels very modern. The Master has so many great lines here. You can definitely sense Missy in this story more than any other classic Master story. It's sad to know that Delgado passed away not long after this story (there's just one story with Delgado left after this one), because he just keeps getting better and better.
Sorry for gushing, but I'm completely thrown by how much I'm enjoying this story. I remembered this as one of those utterly crap stories, but I was completely wrong. As long as you're willing to forgive the utterly bonkers plot there's a lot of fun things going on in this one. Also Benton gets turned into a baby at one point.
Edit: Oops, didn't realize I made the last post in this thread, sorry for the double post.
Edit2: Found a youtube link for the Master/Doctor scene I was describing, in case anyone's interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahl3R2a2wuY
Looks like BBC is planning on moving Doctor Who production to a new branch of the company called BBC Studios, which will no longer be funded by BBC television tax.
I know that there are a lot of rules on how BBC can use public funds, maybe this will lead to higher budgets for Doctor Who? I know Doctor Who makes a lot of money worldwide for the BBC, I'm hoping this will allow them to spend more on Doctor Who.
I know that there are a lot of rules on how BBC can use public funds, maybe this will lead to higher budgets for Doctor Who? I know Doctor Who makes a lot of money worldwide for the BBC, I'm hoping this will allow them to spend more on Doctor Who.
I don't know anything about how this will actually work, I'm sure people like APZonerunner would have some insight... But there's a problem with going with a for profit model to fund it. Sure it might get a higher budget for doing well commercially, but the moment the numbers dip, it becomes in a real danger of cancelation.
But boy do I want high budget Who...
I hope so. If I had Bill Gates level money I would fund Doctor Who by myself, the show absolutely deserves more funds for bigger sets and more extensive practical/CGI effects. I understand and respect why money is so tight though.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
Dear God, please yes.
I suppose there's another possibility, I've heard that apparently the British government is considering changes in the TV tax, it's possible BBC is moving their more popular shows off of TV tax funding to make sure that if there are any issues with the changes they are still able to make their more popular shows like Doctor Who.
Honestly though I'm not an expert on the BBC and how the TV tax works, hopefully someone that is can fill us in with more information.
Honestly though I'm not an expert on the BBC and how the TV tax works, hopefully someone that is can fill us in with more information.
I think one benefit of the show not being funded by tax money is that it's easier for them to license the show out to video game developers. I think I remember some article around the time of the free Matt Smith adventure games mentioning that they could only allow UK companies (backed by government grants) to make the games, which explains why all the games so far are relatively low budget. I know Telltale at least tried to get something going years ago (around the time of Strong Bad/Wallace and Gromit I believe) but that it didn't go anywhere at the time - possibly for that reason (I used to chat with a couple of people at Telltale on Facebook around that time - they were a little bit more open at that time and I knew those guys from before Telltale began from Lucasarts fan communities. That said, I have no idea on what level those negotiations took place or if it was more of an internal idea that got killed before they approached the BBC). I'm still holding out hope that that will happen some day. Hopefully it'll get a second season with a couple of classic Doctors as well. I'd pay good money to be able to play a Telltale episode as Peter Davison, for example.
Keep in mind that I'm not from the UK, I'm not completely sure how any of this works and that I'm basing it mostly on half remembered interviews from years ago. Like others have said, APZone is the real authority on stuff like this.
Keep in mind that I'm not from the UK, I'm not completely sure how any of this works and that I'm basing it mostly on half remembered interviews from years ago. Like others have said, APZone is the real authority on stuff like this.
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Banned
Oh God, please no.
I don't want a privatised Doctor Who, thanks all the same.
I don't want a privatised Doctor Who, thanks all the same.
APZonerunner
Member
Giving Doctor Who to BBC studios is almost certainly a cancellation and potentially show altering (to chase better ratings) time bomb and I don't like it, to be honest. Being funded by taxpayer money limits the show in budget, but it also has allowed it to survive and do things where, in any other circumstance, it probably wouldn't. It'll lead to a harder push for films, adjustment of the show's style, and so on. Maybe not immediately, but eventually, I'm confident. So it makes me nervous. I don't want Who to end up like Star Trek, the second longest tv sci-fi show after it.
That said, BBC Studios is an interesting one as while profit driven it still serves the public interest side, so not sure how it could/will work. It's a half-step, in a sense, but that could lead to a full step up later on, bringing Who outside of the BBC's regular sphere of influence. At that point the show would be in the same place it was in around 1996, where Fox owned an interest and the BBC owned the rest, and the result was no series after the McGann 'movie' pilot and years of rights wrangling (that's still going on - that's why no movie characters have ever appeared again, not even in Big Finish).
It's worked for Top Gear because people like Clarkson and Hamilton head up its production company, and they're truly invested in the show. The thing is, many of the things TG has done, Who has done anyway through partnerships forged through BBC Worldwide while keeping the show itself ringfenced away from it. This is things like the orchestra concerts (or Top Gear Live), the Experience, etc. The moment Doctor Who is 'just another show', it's in trouble.
What could change in real terms? Being outside the actual BBC TV ecosystem will adjust a few things. For instance, it makes it harder for last-minute deals to happen that have resulted in things like extended run-times, or the Doctor/TARDIS appearing on BBC One Idents, etc. These are good examples; in the current setup, everybody is on the same team, so when RTD went begging for an Ident at Christmas, the BBC not only said "sure," but provided the budget to do CGI of Reindeer dragging the TARDIS around and stuff. It's in their interest. Once the show is on a different 'team', they have to be more careful about showing bias and all that crap, and wham, stuff like that gets harder. Julie Gardner ringing up and saying "We're ten minutes over, are we okay?" changes from "we'll make it work," to "no, cut scenes," more likely.
It's little things like this. For what'd give us some better CGI, it's not a good trade-off.
Another big example relates to Wales/Cardiff -- the show has been made there since 2005 and basically exists because the BBC made a commitment to the Government to do what they could (as essentially a government arm) to increase industry and provide jobs in Wales. It's difficult to quantify how much this meant to Doctor Who, but it's a lot - RTD was approached and given carte blanche to make what he wanted essentially because he was the highest profile Welsh TV writer and this was all about developing big, ballsy new products in Wales, since the Government had asked for it. Shows like Doctor Who, Casualty and Sherlock have been filmed there and created hundreds if not thousands of jobs, and prompting the building of the new Upper Boat building and all that. When Doctor Who was having an 'off year' for the Davies/Moffat handover, things like Sarah Jane, Torchwood, Merlin and so on were made to fill the gap and ensure people weren't let go. This is part of what the BBC does outside of just 'making TV' - they've built an infrastructure. Obviously the non public service parts of the BBC don't think in this way and follow a much more typical hire-then-dump up-and-down staff/infrastructure build like the rest of the industry, because they're built around profit... so another worry is a shift like that could mean a lot of the talented people at Upper Boat lose stability, which in turn might mean they go elsewhere.
It also would mean things for international licensing - Worldwide would have to bid a lot more I imagine and wouldn't get any preferential treatment, so in the US it could end up elsewhere if somebody wanted to bid in whenever the contract expires. Lots of little considerations like this.
Also: I always think the budgetary constraints define the show, really. RTD/Moffat/Tennant once had a great conversation on a commentary about how the bedrock of Doctor Who is how "The scene of 50 million Daleks descending from the sky" is followed by "a scene in somebody's bedroom." Tennant says the show is built around a lot of "standing around urgently talking" -- and this is true even in the big budget episodes like Day of the Doctor. It's what sets it apart from other properties, IMO, and more money is dangerous 'cause of it.
That said, BBC Studios is an interesting one as while profit driven it still serves the public interest side, so not sure how it could/will work. It's a half-step, in a sense, but that could lead to a full step up later on, bringing Who outside of the BBC's regular sphere of influence. At that point the show would be in the same place it was in around 1996, where Fox owned an interest and the BBC owned the rest, and the result was no series after the McGann 'movie' pilot and years of rights wrangling (that's still going on - that's why no movie characters have ever appeared again, not even in Big Finish).
It's worked for Top Gear because people like Clarkson and Hamilton head up its production company, and they're truly invested in the show. The thing is, many of the things TG has done, Who has done anyway through partnerships forged through BBC Worldwide while keeping the show itself ringfenced away from it. This is things like the orchestra concerts (or Top Gear Live), the Experience, etc. The moment Doctor Who is 'just another show', it's in trouble.
What could change in real terms? Being outside the actual BBC TV ecosystem will adjust a few things. For instance, it makes it harder for last-minute deals to happen that have resulted in things like extended run-times, or the Doctor/TARDIS appearing on BBC One Idents, etc. These are good examples; in the current setup, everybody is on the same team, so when RTD went begging for an Ident at Christmas, the BBC not only said "sure," but provided the budget to do CGI of Reindeer dragging the TARDIS around and stuff. It's in their interest. Once the show is on a different 'team', they have to be more careful about showing bias and all that crap, and wham, stuff like that gets harder. Julie Gardner ringing up and saying "We're ten minutes over, are we okay?" changes from "we'll make it work," to "no, cut scenes," more likely.
It's little things like this. For what'd give us some better CGI, it's not a good trade-off.
Another big example relates to Wales/Cardiff -- the show has been made there since 2005 and basically exists because the BBC made a commitment to the Government to do what they could (as essentially a government arm) to increase industry and provide jobs in Wales. It's difficult to quantify how much this meant to Doctor Who, but it's a lot - RTD was approached and given carte blanche to make what he wanted essentially because he was the highest profile Welsh TV writer and this was all about developing big, ballsy new products in Wales, since the Government had asked for it. Shows like Doctor Who, Casualty and Sherlock have been filmed there and created hundreds if not thousands of jobs, and prompting the building of the new Upper Boat building and all that. When Doctor Who was having an 'off year' for the Davies/Moffat handover, things like Sarah Jane, Torchwood, Merlin and so on were made to fill the gap and ensure people weren't let go. This is part of what the BBC does outside of just 'making TV' - they've built an infrastructure. Obviously the non public service parts of the BBC don't think in this way and follow a much more typical hire-then-dump up-and-down staff/infrastructure build like the rest of the industry, because they're built around profit... so another worry is a shift like that could mean a lot of the talented people at Upper Boat lose stability, which in turn might mean they go elsewhere.
It also would mean things for international licensing - Worldwide would have to bid a lot more I imagine and wouldn't get any preferential treatment, so in the US it could end up elsewhere if somebody wanted to bid in whenever the contract expires. Lots of little considerations like this.
Also: I always think the budgetary constraints define the show, really. RTD/Moffat/Tennant once had a great conversation on a commentary about how the bedrock of Doctor Who is how "The scene of 50 million Daleks descending from the sky" is followed by "a scene in somebody's bedroom." Tennant says the show is built around a lot of "standing around urgently talking" -- and this is true even in the big budget episodes like Day of the Doctor. It's what sets it apart from other properties, IMO, and more money is dangerous 'cause of it.
Thanks, we can always count on you for these things. This reminds me of those discussions regarding a possible Doctor Who movie over the last couple of years. It's still not completely clear what would be the benefit of that. Sure, you'll have a bigger budget and a longer runtime than your typical episode, but I think there aren't a lot of people who'd say that the budget was too low as it is now - or at least that the show wouldn't be any better if they pumped more money into making the aliens look more realistic (the one thing money does buy is more location shoots abroad, which always look great, but they've already been doing that during the last couple of seasons). As for the longer runtime; what would the difference be between a random two parter or series finale? What would the story even be about, because they already go as big as they can in the tv show - the universe has been destroyed and rebooted multiple times. What's the biggest Doctor Who can go? Multidoctor specials? Those wouldn't make sense in the cinema, as a movie like that would be meant to appeal to new fans as well. A big Dalek invasion? Or a random, smaller story? All those things are already possible on tv. The actual biggest downside would be that you'd have to put the tv show on hold for a year or more to make the movie. Would it be worth it to sacrifice 12 episodes for 1 feature length story?
You're completely right in saying that there aren't a lot of noteworthy benefits to Who going commercial. One thing that's still unclear to me: how likely is this actually to happen? I'm not completely sure what's going on in the UK regarding all of this.
Quick Mustard
Member
As we all thought, Jenna was going to leave:
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a633389/jenna-coleman-planned-to-quit-doctor-who-steven-moffat-confirms.html#~p656eLGfdxE6mF
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a633389/jenna-coleman-planned-to-quit-doctor-who-steven-moffat-confirms.html#~p656eLGfdxE6mF
Christmas ending would have been a billion times sadder than Death in Heaven, I am glad they didn't keep it!
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Banned
I must say, that coupled with the lack of any secondary companions announced for next season makes me a little concerned about Clara's character development next time out. I hope Moffat didn't just write a more generic companion thanks to the uncertainty.
acheron_xl
Member
Goddamn it Jenna. Just go.
So that's the explanation for the double fakeout. I thought there was too much detail put into that
old lady Clara
I'd like to believe that "Asylum of the Daleks" was supposed to be her only episode, but she wanted to come back so they wrote her into another episode then killed off the character, and she wanted to keep coming back so they said "screw it, make her a companion" and used the timestream thing to justify her being rewritten back into the story so many times.
I would like to think this leaves the door open to Clara living on the Tardis, and pushing her thrill addiction too far.
I also like imagining Moffat being like "I had to write you back in twice now, you will be leaving on my terms- MID SEASON DEATH SCENE!"
Death in Heaven would have felt fresh for being such a quiet goodbye and having them lying to each other like that. Plus, it would leave possible future cameos open, which is never a bad idea. The Christmas one would have been deliciously bittersweet and a good match for Matt's final moments.
They wasted a couple of great goodbye scenes because of that. I wonder how her actual final episode will be like.
They wasted a couple of great goodbye scenes because of that. I wonder how her actual final episode will be like.
Really. This is the third time the character had a natural exit point they didn't take.
After Mummy would've been good.
After Death in Heaven would've been better.
Even after the Christmas thing, that would've been cool too. It had symmetry with her saying goodbye to the 11th Doctor.
All these false endings are making her character's arc so lumpy and weird. I love Clara and even I think she should've been gone by now.
The 12th needs a companion of his very own already. No more hand-me-downs. I want to see what kind of person this guy would choose to share the universe with.
Future Foundation
Member
She was always gonna be a companion. Her being in Asylum was just a (I believe) scheduling thing - she was available and they added her in, helping the Impossible Girl arc.
Meh I don't want Clara anymore. I want another character that rivals the doctor like doctor donna
paradox121
Member
I think in a few years time Clara will be seen as a 12th Doctor companion in the same way Sarah Jane was to the 4th Doc and Nyssa/Tegan were to the 5th. If anything the 11th Doctor basically treated Clara like a mystery, like a hard crossword puzzle that was stuck in his back pocket. It's only 12 that genuinely seems to care for her as a person.
That's not at all how I read the 11th's relationship to Clara, but I do agree that in time, people will think of her as a 12th Doctor companion just by virtue of the amount of time each Doctor spent with her.
That said, I still would really like to see a companion that was designed from the ground up to hang out with the 12th Doctor. Poor Clara's been broken down and rebuilt to suit the purpose.
That sure is a weird way to spell Romana.
Team Filler
Member
Could actually be used to their advantage for a real sucker-punch of a character death (if the story were to go in that kind of direction). Make it so that the media is finally sick of chasing recurring rumors of her departure, following up less and less on anything they hear regarding the matter, then have a mid-season mid-episode death without any big buildup or foreshadowing.
"Goddamn it Jenna, just give up your dream job already!"
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