Support NeoGAF

[Goss Harag]

What do you mean 'No'? The Southport murders were committed on July 29th 2024 while this show was announced in March of 2024. They had literally started filming even before those murders.

This is a lie being passed around, the show was already in production when those events happened, it's has nothing to do with Southport other than it being a stabbing.

Only you two have mentioned Southport.

I don't know whether it's true or not but this is the story that apparently got Stephen Graham interested in writing the show; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg8ly1wr8ro


This is a completely different case where a non-white person stabbed someone to death.

 

[DragoonKain]

This show is becoming really popular, I'm glad it's getting the recognition it deserves.

 

[Markio128]

Fucking hell, some of you lot could find a hidden agenda in an empty room.

 

[DKehoe]

 

[lughnasadh123]

In for two epsiodes so far, really need to wrap it up sometime. Best thing I can say is the acting is very solid, especially from Stephen.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

It's very well produced and the acting is good.

But it is overtly trying to send a flawed message and has caused a moral panic in the UK. It is therefore not to be supported.

It completely ignores that the real issue is the teaching of respect and resilience, of which there has been ever less of in the UK. There are not masses on 'incels' in the UK.

Just finished and I agree with this.

Moral education on personal responsbility, developing thick skin, respecting community, family or on why building a trustworthy dilligent society is important is absent from the public conversation and in education.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Correct. The UK has been experiencing rising amounts of violent knife attacks, including among teens. This show attempts to scapegoat “incel culture” as the particular reason for the violence and ignores other very obvious factors that are inconvenient to the narrative it wants to present. It’s hard to read it as anything other than disguised propaganda.

That said, I found this to be boring. The one style is impressive but doesn’t do much to create a compelling story.

This.

 

[Lt Pidgeon]

This is a lie being passed around, the show was already in production when those events happened, it's has nothing to do with Southport other than it being a stabbing.

I've never seen it being related to Southport in any way? Wasn't it the case in London when the boy stabbed the girl after an argument on a bus?

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

The show actually highlights a lot of issues with the youth and growing up in the UK and probably Europe with some accuracy which it then proceeds to gloss over with by saying misogyny is the fundamental driving force.

Including things like:

• The disobedience and lack of respect in British classrooms demonstrated by children not following simple orders, using phones in school, speaking back to the teacher, complete lack of attention spans etc..
• Kids after school not having anything meaningful to do and just loitering or living on the Internet
• Parents either being too busy or not really raising their kids as closely as they could be
• The freedom the main boy was allowed to go out by himself at night at such a young age
• Social media becoming the norm for kids and teens
• Anti-social behaviour shown by teens who spray painted the car, lack of respect for adults

I have a friend who's worked in Secondary education here his entire life (aka middle school + high school) and he says how awful it all is. The kids can't sit still, many struggle to follow basic orders, they talk back, they bring their phones in, some get involved in drugs and crime.

I have a Canadian friend who's a teacher who said she'd never teach in the UK because she's spoken to so many former teachers here who talked about the kids being assholes.

I taught in Japan for several years in both Elementary and Middle school and witnessed moral and cultural education being at heart of the entire system. The kids were very respectful, well mannered, polite and were easy to teach. They were made of stronger stuff and understood the importance of following rules both in school and within society.

Many of them would also spend their time after school being engaged in further study or school clubs, so people weren't concerned about hoards of teens and what they're up to.

Anyway my point is the moral panic and push to bring this show into mainstream conversation thinking it's going to fix the problems we have is quite funny. It simply won't. It will require a huge upheavel in how the youth are raised by society (schools, parents, society) if you want more of them to become decent people in society and to seriously drive down youth criminality.

 

[DragoonKain]

I don't agree with the show painting misogyny as the driving force. Maybe the creators intended for that to be the message, but if they did I think they failed by making a great nuanced show ironically.

But just based on what the show presents to us on-screen, I think misogyny had very little to do with the homicide in the show. Episode 3 gives us the best insight into this.

What I thought made the show great was it left the main motivation for the murder ambiguous. It left it up to the audience to decide. It didn't try to preach to us that he committed it for one reason or another. And it gave us a ton to chew on. At the end of the day I think he was a really troubled kid, that had a laundry list of psychological issues.

Likely had some inherent sociopathic tendencies.
Likely had deep insecurity issues and an incessant desire to be accepted.
May have been born and inherited some of his dad's temper and possibly a more extreme version of it.
Bullying may have been a factor exacerbating some of these.
Possibly was emotionally underdeveloped.

Among other things. And what I loved about the show is they didn't force feed us a motive and even in episode 4 the parents are trying to figure out why and if their parenting was a factor. Which may or may not have been, I think if so, a very small one because Jamie's sister turned out just fine and they seemed like good parents, albeit imperfect.

But the idea that the show is preaching to us that Jamie is a misogynist and that's why he killed Katie as far as I'm concerned is just patently untrue. It's far more nuanced than that and Jamie was a deeply troubled kid and the show did a tremendous job showing us that.

 

[Tams]

I don't agree with the show painting misogyny as the driving force. Maybe the creators intended for that to be the message, but if they did I think they failed by making a great nuanced show ironically.

But just based on what the show presents to us on-screen, I think misogyny had very little to do with the homicide in the show. Episode 3 gives us the best insight into this.

What I thought made the show great was it left the main motivation for the murder ambiguous. It left it up to the audience to decide. It didn't try to preach to us that he committed it for one reason or another. And it gave us a ton to chew on. At the end of the day I think he was a really troubled kid, that had a laundry list of psychological issues.

Likely had some inherent sociopathic tendencies.
Likely had deep insecurity issues and an incessant desire to be accepted.
May have been born and inherited some of his dad's temper and possibly a more extreme version of it.
Bullying may have been a factor exacerbating some of these.
Possibly was emotionally underdeveloped.

Among other things. And what I loved about the show is they didn't force feed us a motive and even in episode 4 the parents are trying to figure out why and if their parenting was a factor. Which may or may not have been, I think if so, a very small one because Jamie's sister turned out just fine and they seemed like good parents, albeit imperfect.

But the idea that the show is preaching to us that Jamie is a misogynist and that's why he killed Katie as far as I'm concerned is just patently untrue. It's far more nuanced than that and Jamie was a deeply troubled kid and the show did a tremendous job showing us that.

The idea that it is preaching to us comes from all the interviews the creators have done, and commentary around, jncluding by the Prime Minister.

Just today, he got Netflix to agree to offer it free to all schools. Considering the lack of teaching of critical thinking in British schools (for decades), this can only really mean it is to preach.

The press releases (including X) about it are all incredibly vague. He's said it's about having conversations, but surely we all know that often ends of being lectured to.

 

[DragoonKain]

The idea that it is preaching to us comes from all the interviews the creators have done, and commentary around, jncluding by the Prime Minister.

Just today, he got Netflix to agree to offer it free to all schools. Considering the lack of teaching of critical thinking in British schools (for decades), this can only really mean it is to preach.

The press releases (including X) about it are all incredibly vague. He's said it's about having conversations, but surely we all know that often ends of being lectured to.

They're wrong about their own show. Again, as I noted in my post, that may have been the intention of the creators, but if it was, they did a bad job of relaying that message because what we saw on-screen did not show a murder taking place because of misogyny at all. Or maybe the creators are doing a bad job relaying their own message and it's more "We created a show, hoping it will spark a conversation about an issue we are concerned about" even if the show itself is not necessarily about said issue.

 

[Tams]

They're wrong about their own show. Again, as I noted in my post, that may have been the intention of the creators, but if it was, they did a bad job of relaying that message because what we saw on-screen did not show a murder taking place because of misogyny at all. Or maybe the creators are doing a bad job relaying their own message and it's more "We created a show, hoping it will spark a conversation about an issue we are concerned about" even if the show itself is not necessarily about said issue.

They are fulling backing and egging on Starmer on this, so they clearly created it with misogyny and 'toxic masculinity' in mind.

It boggles my mind that they don't understand their own fucking creation.