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[GringoSuave89]

Okay, I actually didn't know about that scene. So now I understand what you mean. However, I wonder how many of those outraged are actually thinking of that scene. That Barbara was paralyzed is always one of the most prominent things about the killing joke. To me it seems like the intent was to reference that, not what happened afterwards.
I mean, the Joker is also carrying the gun he shot her with, not a camera.

That's the entire basis of their ire. Not her paralysis (many of them are thankful that it lead to her being a representation of capable/independent disabled persons). And intent or not, that's a connotation to the situation. If she was sitting there just looking pissed, that'd be one thing, but having her face the Joker, dressed in the same way, but in a position of emotional duress and weakness? It's a pretty major oversight if it wasn't intended.

That's all I, personally, am arguing.

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

Personally, I don't feel the cover, in a vacuum, is offensive. It's a reference to a previous story, and an iconic one that defined the character.

The problem, is that the events of the killing joke were allowed to define her, and unlike other, male heroes, she is continually characterized as being a victim.

So like batman?

Or how hank Pyms defining characteristic is a wife beater?

 

[not_so_special]

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I could definitely see a Robin version of this cover with the joker holding a crowbar instead of a gun.

Would Robin be crying though?

 

[Sanjuro]

I absolutely love the cover. Have some catching up to do in the DC series apparently!

 

[DoktorEvil]

What the cover tells me is that I should've read The Killing Joke the opportunity I had when my college roommate offered to lend it to me.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Yeah, that's not really supporting your point.

Guys are allowed to mourn the death of friends.

Okay, so how about these ones show Batman afraid? I can't wait to see what arbitrary distinction you come up with to discredit them!

 

[Sibersk Esto]

 

[Rhaknar]

cover is awesome, what the fuck is wrong with people these days.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

People keep posting tears of mourning and due to sadness of loss. Very different than a terrified look and tears when being threatened.

Okay, so how about these ones show Batman afraid? I can't wait to see what arbitrary distinction you come up with to discredit them!

How about one that isn't with Scarecrow who uses psychoactive drugs to induce fear in people?

 

[Femmeworth]

It's certainly an effective cover, though why that is the case should be examined.

 

[not_so_special]

well some people will never learn..no matter how their arguments get crushed with examples or reallity

People keep posting tears of mourning and due to sadness of loss. Very different than a terrified look and tears when being threatened.

oh yeah... if you ignore everything that prove you are wrong....

 

[GringoSuave89]

People keep posting tears of mourning and due to sadness of loss. Very different than a terrified look and tears when being threatened.

I think that's the part they have trouble getting.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Pretty sure it's a little that just coincidence that a lot of characters who crossdress also happen to be sociopaths even if it's unrelated to their crossdressing.

And just because there is a non-joke trans character doesn't mean they can't do stuff that isn't transphobic. They probably didn't intend to but that's still not an excuse.

Well, in my opinion if I don't think they meant any harm then I don't have a problem with them using a crossdressing character. I don't think writers should stop using concepts like that because other people use them poorly.

 

[Kinyou]

Would Robin be crying though?

Good question. But I also wonder if anyone would be upset if he was.

How about one that isn't with Scarecrow who uses psychoactive drugs to induce fear in people?

lol, come on. You're really moving goalposts

 

[Deleted member 17706]

well some people will never learn..no matter how their arguments get crushed with examples or reallity



oh yeah... if you ignore everything that prove you are wrong....

Like what? Did I miss some examples?

 

[Merc_]

Folks really need to pick their battles better. This cover just looks like a normal scenario for the Joker.

 

[not_so_special]

I think that's the part they have trouble getting.

no,the part you have trouble getting its that your argument is a fallacy

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't imagine we'd ever see Batman with a terrified look in his face and a tear coming out of his eye no matter what situation Joker managed to put him in.

Nope. Crying is apparently a girl thing.

What are you two talking about, Batman has been shown crying before.

Would Robin be crying though?

I think it would depend on the Robin.

 

[Opto]

When referencing The Killing Joke, maybe don't put Barbara back in a scared victim position? I see why this would upset people.

Oh I get it. They're projecting rape culture.

Or I guess you can be this guy.

 

[not_so_special]

Like what? Did I miss some examples?

lol, come on. You're really moving goalposts

its their favorite tactic...but man..they are cool

 

[Angelus Errare]

Barbara's run as Batgirl was pretty bland through and through. TKJ and Joker shooting her/crippling her was the highlight of Barbara's time as Batgirl, I'd argue it's the only memorable story DC wrote for her unfortunately. So they keep coming back to it...because that's all there is for Barbara-Batgirl. Her characterization at the time was just horrible. There was barely any reason why she took up the mantle, she didn't have much of an identity. Nothing fueled her to be Batgirl, I'm still trying to figure out who actually asked for Barbara to take up the cowl again TBH.

After TKJ and she became crippled the writing of her character and her characterization increase soooo damn much as Oracle. She realized that her being Batgirl was a waste of her time and skills and that she could do much more and was more powerful as Oracle. She realized that she didn't need Bruce to do her job, and it got a point where Bruce came to her for help and not the other way around. Her fuel was the incident with Joker and the result of it. She battled PTSD, her own doubts and insecurities came rushing to the surface, she started becoming bitter towards other people who wanted to help her/love her. There were times she resented other members of the Batfamily.

As Batgirl, DC made Barbara too "perfect". She didn't have any real major flaws, but at the same time she didn't have anything fueling that perfection. It was literally "I think Batman is cool and I want to do that too!" as her point of origin as Batgirl. Sometimes she had a lover's spat with Dick but that was it. This is also why many people think Stephanie was the better Batgirl than Barbara specifically because Stephanie wasn't perfect. She started her life of crime fighting the same way. She saw Batman, thought it was cool and was like "me too" but she didn't become Batgirl, she became Spoiler first then Batgirl and she had major shortcomings as a hero. She made a bunch of mistakes, got frustrated, got impulsive, went against orders, got many people harmed or killed indirectly. But she continued to put on the gear because she wanted to prove she could do it that she was fit to wear the cowl. For many people that's what made/make Stephanie great. For many more that's why they think she's a horrible character and worthless Batgirl.

Fuck everyone who requested Barbara be batgirl again and fuck DC for making Barbara Stephanie all but in name.

It's an awesome chilling cover. Ultimately I think this manufactured controversy hurts their cause more than it helps. "Put more women in comics and make them powerful and not sex objects. But make sure they're covered up oh and nothing bad can be done to them by men." A lot of writers are just gonna throw their hands up and say" why bother? "

Only the shitty writers will.

No, not because she is a girl. Because she is younger, less experienced, less driven and less emotionally cold than Bruce Wayne. Equal representation in all characters is boring. Babs being an amateur hero, a college girl who is doing this on her own is what makes her interesting. There is definitely a place for a badass heroine that's just as hard as Batman but it doesn't need to be Batgirl.

That would be Batwoman.

 

[GringoSuave89]

-sigh- Think I need to step away from the thread. Apparently, instead of simply understanding the concern and disagreeing with it, people would rather go out of their way to discredit it. Well, alright then... Guess I'll see you all in the next Batman thread, good news or bad.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

What are you two talking about, Batman has been shown crying before.

Crying over dead loved ones doesn't count
Also, induced fear only counts if it's from a person, but only a specific person
Also sexual assault doesn't count if there isn't a cover dedicated to it
Also no cover featuring Batman counts because reasons

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I'm now imagining an exploitation revenge story where an angry Batgirl hunts down the Joker through the back alleys of Gotham and then shoots him in the spine.

 

[captainpat]

Well, in my opinion if I don't think they meant any harm then I don't have a problem with them using a crossdressing character. I don't think writers should stop using concepts like that because other people use them poorly.

It's not about having a character who crossdress, it's about having a character who crossdresses and making him a sociopath. You don't need to be crazy to crossdress.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

lol, come on. You're really moving goalposts

Do you really think so? I'm not an avid comic collector or Batman aficionado, but I don't think I've ever seen Batman genuinely afraid outside of encounters with the Scarecrow, since his whole shtick is using gas to induce hallucinations and make people more prone to being afraid.

Also to this guy:

its their favorite tactic...but man..they are cool

"Their favorite tactic?" What is this shit, man?

What are you two talking about, Batman has been shown crying before.

How is that crying the same? Do you really think it is?

 

[Nekofrog]

I'm not sure if the people saying "But it's Joker! He's a villain!" are just missing point, or intentionally ignoring that the furor isn't about the Joker and what he's doing, but about Batgirl's portrayal.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Batman isn't going to be portrayed as crying (due to fear from a villain) because that is not the persona he's portraying. He is supposed to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. To do that he hardens himself to whatever they throw at him.

To me that silence is indicative of severe mental problems, and most definitely not strength as we know it in the real world. If anything it is a form of denial... but that's what I enjoy about the Batman character.

So you can see Barbara crying as a form of weakness, or you can see it as them portraying a sane human being reacting to the imminent threat of violence at the hands of a mass murdering psychopath. Stoicism in that situation is the fucked up thing, and being fucked up is what makes Batman... well... Batman.

He's always a victim in that regard.

 

[not_so_special]

-sigh- Think I need to step away from the thread. Apparently, instead of simply understanding the concern and disagreeing with it, people would rather go out of their way to discredit it. Well, alright then... .

oh..the "i retire but you are wrong" movement..oh gringo come one fella

"Their favorite tactic?" What is this shit, man?

that "shit" its you being blind at factual examples of why u are wrong..but continue.

 

[BennyBlanco]

that is an awesome cover. hope they don't get bullied into changing it.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Not one of those is Batman looking terrified of a villian on a cover.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Batman isn't going to be portrayed as crying (due to fear from a villain) because that is not the persona he's portraying. He is supposed to strike fear into the hearts of criminals. To do that he hardens himself to whatever they throw at him.

To me that silence is indicative of severe mental problems, and most definitely not strength as we know it in the real world. If anything it is a form of denial... but that's what I enjoy about the Batman character.

I think that's a fair assessment. I honestly don't know anything about the Batgirl character. Is she known to be a pretty weak hero that lacks confidence? If so, then this seems pretty in line with her character.

 

[Parallax]

I'm now imagining an exploitation revenge story where an angry Batgirl hunts down the Joker through the back alleys of Gotham and then shoots him in the spine.

she wont get what she wants from the encounter. even paralyzed, joker will have won, and would be laughing in the end. honestly the only person i can think that really pissed the joker off was lex luthor

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Not one of those is Batman looking terrified of a villian on a cover.

Except for the Scarecrow covers, right? Because they're chemically induced terrors?

 

[Coffee Dog]

Or how hank Pyms defining characteristic is a wife beater?

This is actually a really good comparison, better than the batman one.

 

[Slayven]

Barbara's run as Batgirl was pretty bland through and through. TKJ and Joker shooting her/crippling her was the highlight of Barbara's time as Batgirl, I'd argue it's the only memorable story DC wrote for her unfortunately. So they keep coming back to it...because that's all there is for Barbara-Batgirl. Her characterization at the time was just horrible. There was barely any reason why she took up the mantle, she didn't have much of an identity. Nothing fueled her to be Batgirl, I'm still trying to figure out who actually asked for Barbara to take up the cowl again TBH.

After TKJ and she became crippled the writing of her character and her characterization increase soooo damn much as Oracle. She realized that her being Batgirl was a waste of her time and skills and that she could do much more and was more powerful as Oracle. She realized that she didn't need Bruce to do her job, and it got a point where Bruce came to her for help and not the other way around. Her fuel was the incident with Joker and the result of it. She battled PTSD, her own doubts and insecurities came rushing to the surface, she started becoming bitter towards other people who wanted to help her/love her. There were times she resented other members of the Batfamily.

As Batgirl, DC made Barbara too "perfect". She didn't have any real major flaws, but at the same time she didn't have anything fueling that perfection. It was literally "I think Batman is cool and I want to do that too!" as her point of origin as Batgirl. Sometimes she had a lover's spat with Dick but that was it. This is also why many people think Stephanie was the better Batgirl than Barbara specifically because Stephanie wasn't perfect. She started her life of crime fighting the same way. She saw Batman, thought it was cool and was like "me too" but she didn't become Batgirl, she became Spoiler first then Batgirl and she had major shortcomings as a hero. She made a bunch of mistakes, got frustrated, got impulsive, went against orders, got many people harmed or killed indirectly. But she continued to put on the gear because she wanted to prove she could do it that she was fit to wear the cowl. For many people that's what made/make Stephanie great. For many more that's why they think she's a horrible character and worthless Batgirl.

Fuck everyone who requested Barbara be batgirl again and fuck DC for making Barbara Stephanie all but in name.



Only the shitty writers will.




That would be Batwoman.

Testify!!!!! Oracle was so good and they flushed that down the toilet, that is what people should be screaming about

 

[WrenchNinja]

Stephenie was the daughter of a super villain trying to find redemption there and a lovable fuck-up who never gave up and that's what made her endearing

Cassandra was mute and similar to Bruce in struggling to express herself emotionally and had the whole League of Assassin's storyline to her

Barbara as Batgirl is just a nothing. Her whole schtick is girl power.

 

[cutmeamango]

I think that's a fair assessment. I honestly don't know anything about the Batgirl character. Is she known to be a pretty weak hero that lacks confidence? If so, then this seems pretty in line with her character.

Hahahahaahahahaha

 

[TheDarkKnight774]

-sigh- Think I need to step away from the thread. Apparently, instead of simply understanding the concern and disagreeing with it, people would rather go out of their way to discredit it. Well, alright then... Guess I'll see you all in the next Batman thread, good news or bad.

No it's people throwing out baseless assumptions and when images surface that counter it they move the goalposts more. Of course the image is troubling and the reason is its a callback to a traumatic event. It's the whole point of the cover. It grabs your attention and conveys it instantly. Nobody is arguing that. If people have had traumatic events i can understand being sensitive to the imagery but that's something that happen with a lot of imagery and art.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Except for the Scarecrow covers, right? Because they're chemically induced terrors?

...Yes, exactly. The hallucinogens are the excuse to allow otherwise uncharacteristic behavior. Isn't that like the entire premise of the Scarecrow character?

Hahahahaahahahaha

I have no idea what to make of this.

 

[Kinyou]

Do you really think so? I'm not an avid comic collector or Batman aficionado, but I don't think I've ever seen Batman genuinely afraid outside of encounters with the Scarecrow, since his whole shtick is using gas to induce hallucinations and make people more prone to being afraid.

Here's one where he's afraid.

No scarecrow according to synopsis and wiki

Finally good enough?

Also, you began this with "You'd never see Batman crying on a cover" that then turned into "crying because afraid" which then turned into "afraid, but not of the scarecrow". If that's not goalpost moving I don't know what is.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

It's not about having a character who crossdress, it's about having a character who crossdresses and making him a sociopath. You don't need to be crazy to crossdress.

Right, of course. I meant crossdressing villain.

I'm totally against anything I think is malicious to LGBT people. Just didn't see it for the Batgirl story.

 

[The Adder]

One of the reasons Tim Drake is my favorite comic characters is because he's one of the few male characters allowed to emote genuinely.

And by that I mean he doesn't do it in a "cool" way.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp269/fantasticfangirls/Anika/poortim.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J1fQQNvzxKc/Tn_-QedNngI/AAAAAAAAXvg/4juo7pyUYls/s400/hugs%21.png

Barely relevant and not at all analogus to this, I just like talking about Tim Drake.

 

[not_so_special]

I'm not sure if the people saying "But it's Joker! He's a villain!" are just missing point, or intentionally ignoring that the furor isn't about the Joker and what he's doing, but about Batgirl's portrayal.

see? thats part of the "holir than thou" attitude who rub the wrong way of people its always the "you missed the point " you are ignorant" " you dont know"

always the same

Not one of those is Batman looking terrified of a villian on a cover.

way to ignore the other covers...no problem fella

 

[Nicktendo86]

Thank you modern day let's get offended at anything age, if it hadn't been for you I would probably never have seen this awesome cover.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

...Yes, exactly. The hallucinogens are the excuse to allow otherwise uncharacteristic behavior. Isn't that like the entire premise of the Scarecrow character?

His entire premise is that his hallucinagens make you see your fears. I don't see how reacting with fright and terror to fears is uncharacteristic...

 

[BajiBoxer]

Not his fault you're too stupid to understand what's different about the pictures you dug up.

oh..the "i retire but you are wrong" movement..oh gringo come one fella




that "shit" its you being blind at factual examples of why u are wrong..but continue.

 

[Nekofrog]

see? thats part of the "holir than thou" attitude who rub the wrong way of people its always the "you missed the point " you are ignorant" " you dont know"

always the same




way to ignore the other covers...no problem fella

No, it's not. I'm genuinely curious, because to me it's plainly obvious what the issue people have with the cover is. It has also been explained multiple times, but people keep sticking to their guns.

 

[Salsa]

ffs

this "offended" generation hyperbole is reaching it's critical point