Support NeoGAF

[MrHoot]

I wasn't asking for an example of her, I wanted an example of Batman going through something similar. In her cover, she's at the behest of The Joker, a pretty normalish villain; no fear gas, no nutso super powers. Counter covers use Scarecrow, who is famed for bringing people to irrational fear. If there was a cover showing Scarecrow terrorizing Barbara, I wouldn't mind it at all, because it makes 100% perfect sense.

I don't really agree. The joker is a pretty freakish and terrifying villain already by itself, if you think about it. I wouldn't need any fear gas to be pissing myself if I was in that position.

Now, in the case of Batgirl (as in, if we really take the general idea of Batgirl in the DC universe), most remember the killing joke as an important part of the history behind the character, and her very specific trauma towards the joker. Not only was she shot and abused, then subsequently became the Oracle because forced in a wheelchair, her father also went through horrific abuse, and bruce himself was put to the test. That is a VERY intense relationship with a villain i'd say.Which, I think, justifies the cover as "This is what Joker is specifically to her, because he's a horrible fucking maniac". It's absolutely not a nice sight no, but it's justified and I don't put it in the same malignant category as other more sexist covers who would blatantly exploit the imagery.

After that, if we wanna talk about the overall writing of comics, that's a whole other story. Usually I'm not a fan of how most mainstream comic series are written as a whole

 

[plasmawave]

And my point was that the examples of Batman in sheer terror were because of a character's power.

You're really spilling hairs now, aren't you?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Why should that matter though? The only thing that should matter is the resulting image.

Video games and comics just seem like easy targets or something.

In film and music, there's significant input and contribution from a person's portrayal. Music and film as they are though are routinely criticized, but for different things. Portrayal however are included. Video games and comics are also younger, so they are inherently going to do worse at portrayal.

You're really spilling hairs now, aren't you?

No, I'm saying that there is a canyonesque gap separating "afraid of Scarecrow" and "afraid of Joker."

 

[Monocle]

That cover is fucking awesome.

Nailed it. Hopefully the controversy will draw more well deserved attention to this excellent cover, which is entirely appropriate in context, and a striking example of a disturbing concept realized in an effective yet tasteful manner.

I think it's a safe bet that anybody who objects to this cover needs to sharpen their critical skills. Is the cover consistent with the series' themes? Does it reference notable imagery from the series' history? Are the characters portrayed in a faithful way? Is the situation depicted in this cover relevant to the plot? Is the actual image more suggestive than explicit? Is there superfluous sexual subtext? Could the concept work if the genders of the characters were switched? Where, exactly, is the exploitation?

 

[hunnies28]

What's wrong ? It's the joker torturing someone in the bat familly, like he always did. Stop making this an gender issue

Not offensive but not original either.

I don't see why that cover is offensive.

Is the issue that she's portrayed as weaker than male superheroes?

I mean, they have a history, same as any of the Bat family but still I don't see why choosing Batgirl in particular is offensive.

 

[EightBitNate]

In film and music, there's significant input and contribution from a person's portrayal. Music and film as they are though are routinely criticized, but for different things. Portrayal however are included. Video games and comics are also younger, so they are inherently going to do worse at portrayal.



No, I'm saying that there is a canyonesque gap separating "afraid of Scarecrow" and "afraid of Joker."

I can't say I agree but oh well.

I also think it's unfair to label white men as the primary creators of content like this. Sure, it may be true, but it's pretty irrelevant.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Their efforts are basically wasted though. There are bigger injustices to women to worry about than the assumed relationship a person may draw from 2 nonfictional characters.

Wait, do you mean to say that criticism of representation is bad because there are greater problems for women, LGBT, POCs, etc.? Can you elaborate on what the minimum acceptable cause for people to undertake that allows it to be beyond such scrutiny?

I can't say I agree but oh well.

I also think it's unfair to label white men as the primary creators of content like this. Sure, it may be true, but it's pretty irrelevant.

How is it unfair? It's a truth, and an affecting truth. It causes the perspective of the medium to be disproportionately directed towards white cishet men, both in terms of audience and in terms of how characters and storylines are written.

 

[Corpekata]

Why should that matter though? The only thing that should matter is the resulting image.

Video games and comics just seem like easy targets or something.



Their efforts are basically wasted though. There are bigger injustices to women to worry about than the assumed relationship a person may draw from 2 nonfictional characters.

The bigger injustices thing is such a fallacy. I mean why are you here defending video games and comics? Shouldn't you be more worried about world hunger? Why even belong to a discussion forum with this sort of attitude?

People like their hobbies and interests, and if they have issues with them, they will talk about it. It does not preclude your mind having room for the other million things wrong with the world.

 

[The Silver]

goddamnit, I wish I could stop hearing about outrage over stupid shit like this cover, all it does is make me apathetic.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

In a comic-book universe where Nightwing was once raped, this variant cover seems pretty tame.

 

[A Link to the Past]

goddamnit, I wish I could stop hearing about outrage over stupid shit like this cover, all it does is make me apathetic.

I'll give you a handy step-by-step guide on how to not have to hear about outrage

1. Go away, stop reading stuff that you find irksome

You're welcome

 

[The Silver]

I'll give you a handy step-by-step guide on how to not have to hear about outrage

1. Go away, stop reading it

You're welcome

dummy you should've just said "turn off the internet", that's much more simpler and clear

 

[A Link to the Past]

dummy you should've just said "turn off the internet", that's much more simpler and clear

I don't cut corners.

 

[NintendoGal]

I don't see a problem with it, even with my limited knowledge of comics. It's Joker being Joker. He's a lunatic who could probably make anyone tremble and cry, then proceed to get real nasty.

 

[BennyBlanco]

If you don't like the cover, that's fine, voice your displeasure. A petition to pull it seems absurd.

"I don't like it. change it!"

Why should artists conform to only making things you're comfortable with?

 

[A Link to the Past]

If you don't like the cover, that's fine, voice your displeasure. A petition to pull it seems absurd.

"I don't like it. change it!"

Why should artists conform to only making things you're comfortable with?

Why should people not be able to make a passioned criticism of an artist? If it cannot be petitioned, it cannot be art, and they cannot be artists.

 

[The Silver]

I don't cut corners.

you should always get straight to the point friend

 

[not psycho]

No, I'm saying that there is a canyonesque gap separating "afraid of Scarecrow" and "afraid of Joker."

Like I mentioned earlier, though, there is some line blurring here with regard to this cover vs the event itself.

Is the problem the cover or the event? IF this event, and the Joker himself, is essential to Barbara's character, then it makes sense for it to be capable of depiction; this particular depiction is powerful and scary, so in that sense makes for a good cover.

"Why not Batman too" misses the point if we start from the assumption that it is essential to her character but there is no equivalent event essential to his. His parents' death is essential to his character, and presumably is depicted many times.

So are you arguing that it is problematic that the Joker, and the referenced story, are essential to her characterization (perhaps because you don't see male characters with essential stories like that)? Or are you arguing that they are not essential? Or are you arguing they are essential but should not be depicted?

 

[Monocle]

Why should people not be able to make a passioned criticism of an artist? If it cannot be petitioned, it cannot be art, and they cannot be artists.

If the criticism is frivolous I see no reason not to dismiss it.

 

[Sandfox]

No, I'm saying that there is a canyonesque gap separating "afraid of Scarecrow" and "afraid of Joker."

That's kinda ignoring the history between the characters since it makes sense for Batgirl to be afraid of the Joker in that situation.

 

[Sheroking]

Not remotely offensive in any context.

When people over-extend themselves to be offended by something, they do more damage to their cause than good.

 

[ronito]

Why should people not be able to make a passioned criticism of an artist? If it cannot be petitioned, it cannot be art, and they cannot be artists.

Hahahaha . Yes, art isn't art unless it's art by committee

 

[DERF]

Both my wife and I think that cover is great.

 

[Corpekata]

Where is this petition exactly? Searching change.org returns no results for "Batgirl cover" and "Batgirl 41".

Is this going to end up being another case where a few people were upset and people act like the evil PC culture has shut down the creative liberties of everyone ever?

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's kinda ignoring the history between the characters since it makes sense for Batgirl to be afraid of the Joker in that situation.

And yet it would make sense to show her being defiant of The Joker and overcoming her fears. It's either going to happen eventually, or DC's writing staff is a cartoon.

If the criticism is frivolous I see no reason not to dismiss it.

Are you taking the burden of being the one responsible for determining frivolity?

Hashanah. Yes, art isn't art unless it's art by committee

This post is a good example of someone acting in utter bad faith to completely misread a post.

I never said that art had to be determined by committee, so stop inserting imagined thoughts into other people's posts. What I said is that an artist isn't an artist if he cannot be criticized.

 

[Gonzalez]

Didn't we get 100+ episodes of Batman in bondage during the 60's?

Bunch of whiny nerds. You know not everything is a social injustice?

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Joker fear is different from Scarecrow fear, much like fear sweat is different from heat sweat.

 

[ronito]

Are you taking the burden of being the one responsible for determining frivolity?

And the outrage club is the one to deem things apt for criticism?

 

[Mudcrab]

Somehow these female characters always end up in trouble.

Superheroes are supposed to, that's how we get to the fun part of them getting out of trouble.

 

[Monocle]

Are you taking the burden of being the one responsible for determining frivolity?

I'm exercising my prerogative as a person with an informed opinion to state that, to me, the controversy seems ridiculous. I haven't seen a single persuasive reason to take it seriously. And as an artist and a casual fan of the series, I love the cover.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I love the equivalences. Batgirl gets raped, and Batman gets tied in a speeding car driven by The Joker (yet never expresses fear on this cover despite the extreme situation he is in). I'm legitimately curious how many superheroines have rape/sexual assault storylines.

And the outrage club is the one to deem things apt for criticism?

Everything is apt for criticism. It really says a lot about anyone who would suggest otherwise.

There's nothing worse than people getting outraged because people are getting outraged. It's way more annoying and it makes you a big ol' hypocrite.

 

[iSnakeTk]

Look what I found on Wikipedia.

" When DC comics relaunched its universe in 2011 many of Batman's stories were erased or altered, but The Killing Joke story was still intact. In the new continuity, Barbara Gordon recovered from the paralysis inflicted upon her by the Joker's bullet which lasted for four years. Although she resumes her work as Batgirl one year after recovering her mobility, she continues to suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder when exposed to gunfire that could result in receiving new spinal damage."

This cover should actually make more sense now with the gun and all that.

 

[Monocle]

Look what I found on Wikipedia.

" When DC comics relaunched its universe in 2011 many of Batman's stories were erased or altered, but The Killing Joke story was still intact. In the new continuity, Barbara Gordon recovered from the paralysis inflicted upon her by the Joker's bullet which lasted for four years. Although she resumes her work as Batgirl one year after recovering her mobility, she continues to suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder when exposed to gunfire that could result in receiving new spinal damage."

This cover should actually make more sense now with the gun and all that.

That retcon makes the cover even more interesting.

 

[ronito]

Everything is apt for criticism. It really says a lot about anyone who would suggest otherwise.

There's nothing worse than people getting outraged because people are getting outraged. It's way more annoying and it makes you a big ol' hypocrite.

Now you're outraged about me being outraged about this silly outrage. When does the cycle end?! We need to start a petition or something

 

[Messi]

Look what I found on Wikipedia.

" When DC comics relaunched its universe in 2011 many of Batman's stories were erased or altered, but The Killing Joke story was still intact. In the new continuity, Barbara Gordon recovered from the paralysis inflicted upon her by the Joker's bullet which lasted for four years. Although she resumes her work as Batgirl one year after recovering her mobility, she continues to suffer from posttraumatic stress disorder when exposed to gunfire that could result in receiving new spinal damage."

This cover should actually make more sense now with the gun and all that.

I believe Gail Simone references this in her new 52 run when Babs fights Joker.

 

[Abounder]

Everything is apt for criticism. It really says a lot about anyone who would suggest otherwise.

Everything is apt for criticism, and that includes people's opinions and their criticisms. The cover is great for a Batgirl comic, and we've seen similar stuff before in the Batverse.

 

[Kinyou]

Joker fear is different from Scarecrow fear, much like fear sweat is different from heat sweat.

But isn't scarecrows gas making you see your worst fears? What if in case of Batgirl that would be being faced again with what happened in killing joke?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Now you're outraged about me being outraged about this silly outrage. When does the cycle end?! We need to start a petition or something

Pointing out the cartoonish nature of your offense is not outrage. I think you're taking this more seriously than most people in this thread who are against the cover do.

Everything is apt for criticism, and that includes people's opinions and their criticisms. The cover is great for a Batgirl comic, and we've seen similar stuff before in the Batverse.

Can you give me an example of an equivalent cover? The only response to this request has been "read the thread." When I read the thread, nothing equivalent showed up.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

And yet it would make sense to show her being defiant of The Joker and overcoming her fears. It's either going to happen eventually, or DC's writing staff is a cartoon.



Are you taking the burden of being the one responsible for determining frivolity?



This post is a good example of someone acting in utter bad faith to completely misread a post.

I never said that art had to be determined by committee, so stop inserting imagined thoughts into other people's posts. What I said is that an artist isn't an artist if he cannot be criticized.

Dude, you seem clueless about this the more you post. This is an alternate cover to commemorate joker. This has nothing to do with the story or DC's writing staff or Barbara getting over the trauma she received at the hands of the joker. This is a single picture that is completely disconnected from the current story and writing staff.

I love the equivalences. Batgirl gets raped, and Batman gets tied in a speeding car driven by The Joker (yet never expresses fear on this cover despite the extreme situation he is in). I'm legitimately curious how many superheroines have rape/sexual assault storylines.



Everything is apt for criticism. It really says a lot about anyone who would suggest otherwise.

There's nothing worse than people getting outraged because people are getting outraged. It's way more annoying and it makes you a big ol' hypocrite.

Are you drunk or just really enjoy making strawmen?

 

[Monocle]

Now you're outraged about me being outraged about this silly outrage. When does the cycle end?! We need to start a petition or something

Your blatant disrespect for the validity and efficacy of petitions is quite frankly sickening, sir. You're just as bad as the Joker, firing bullets of cynicism into the vulnerable spine of the democratic spirit.

 

[Darksol]

I want a poster sized that.

 

[FartOfWar]

Somehow these female characters always end up in trouble.

It's Batman and Batman is idiotic, but disconfirming your bias took all of a single Google image search for Batman covers:

 

[A Link to the Past]

Your blatant disrespect for the validity and efficacy of petitions is quite frankly sickening, sir. You're just as bad as the Joker.

Can you elaborate whether you'll continue to post in utterly bad faith and attempt to derail threads because you do not want them to exist?

 

[Sandfox]

And yet it would make sense to show her being defiant of The Joker and overcoming her fears. It's either going to happen eventually, or DC's writing staff is a cartoon.

I don't see why they would do that for a variant cover of a book that has nothing to do with the Joker that month, especially when she's still struggling with the issue in the comics.

 

[SnakeEyes]

That's an awesome cover, and instantly brought back memories of The Killing Joke. I don't buy Batgirl singles but I might just do for that cover.

 

[ronito]

Can you elaborate whether you'll continue to post in utterly bad faith and attempt to derail threads because you do not want them to exist?

Agree or shut up amirite?

 

[Monocle]

Can you elaborate whether you'll continue to post in utterly bad faith and attempt to derail threads because you do not want them to exist?

Actually, I enjoy this kind of topic, which is why I took the time to seriously articulate my opinion earlier.

 

[MrHoot]

Thanks, was looking for the court of owls cover.

I totally get the critics (Don't agree with them). What I don't get is why there's "outrage" and a petition to change it. I mean, of all the covers, a lot of them being probably way worse, THIS is the one that gets people into a frenzy ?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Agree or shut up amirite?

I feel bad for you if your only way to agree or disagree is to come into a thread with a poor attitude.

Actually, I enjoy this kind of topic, which is why I took the time to seriously articulate my opinion earlier.

Judging by your most recent post, it doesn't seem like you're interested in participating in this thread without trolling, so I just felt I had to ask.

 

[not_so_special]

Agree or shut up amirite?

thats how it works