Do you have an annual breakdown for this? Do you also have PSX sales during the period as well?
NPD Sales Results for February 2015 [Nintendo Numbers, Majora's, MH4, ~XB1]
- Thread starter vinnygambini
- Start date
Do you have an annual breakdown for this? Do you also have PSX sales during the period as well?
This is brazenly incorrect. The publishers are selling (are making!) less software, even for the 14-30 male demographic. Every loss is felt, especially when you're not heavily involved in the mobile market. EA is making inroads (or trying to) in that sector but it wasn't just grandma buying just dance when you're talking about a piece of hardware moving 900 million pieces of software. That's felt, whether you want to pretend to ignore it or try to say that the console market ONLY consists of a few mega publishers selling a yearly shooter and a couple yearly sports titles and that's it. Well yeah, if we continue down the path we seem to want to here, that's all that's going to be left. And when that happens, it will be impossible to get to a state of growth or expansion because the software will get even more insular to the aging male demographic. That does not warrant a Baghdad bob kinda attitude but rather a legitimate cause for concern, because software is what drives hardware.
The point is, when you're looking at a market's health it's unwise to selectively ignore things based on your own personal beliefs. A console is a console is a console. Labels notwithstanding.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Wait, if you exclude Wii U Gen 8 is still slightly above Gen 6 launch aligned? That's pretty interesting, I wouldn't have guess that were the case. Thank you very much by the way!See second green line at the top. This is PS4/X1 only from 2013-2014. This ignores Wii U in 2012 entirely.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I own all systems. I have no dog in this fight. I could care less who "wins." Playstation 1 was fantastic for the industry. So was PS2. So was Wii. So is PS4. Enought with the immature "fanboy" claims.
Please, people: stop taking statements you disagree with as butthurt, bitter, or angry sentiments.
Look at how much money Wii brought into the market. That was good for everyone. Regardless of how you personally feel about motion controls, they brought new people to the market that may have never become involved with gaming otherwise and could have stuck around and bought PS4s/XB1s.
Also, LOL at motion controls being dead when VR is about to hit.
why wouldn't you expect that. ps4 was the fastest selling console ever, xbox one was right behind if for a while.
Please note that PS1 sales are not included in the above. PS1 + PS2 + PS3 + PS4 would exceed 111 million units in total.
Well you have to remember that by removing Wii U we remove a whole year from gen 8.
It's important to remember that year 1 for Gen 7 includes 2 months of Xbox 360 sales (1.5m). That's it. Also Year 1 of Gen 6 includes 9 months of PS2 sales in Japan and 2 months of PS2 sales in NA/EU. Where as Gen 8 would now include two months for BOTH the PS4 and Xbox One. So it will obviously be higher due to two consoles being tracked in the first year alone.
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
The original PlayStstion sold an additional 39 million units after 2000? Holy fuck.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Oh, is it possible to get a launch alined chart with lines for both Wii and Wii U shown and not shown? Sorry, if it's too much trouble don't worry about it.
No, 1995-2007.
I don't have time or the will at the moment. Sorry!
Delusibeta
Banned
The problem with trying to use the Wii has a historical point is that it was a pretty blatant outlier last generation in terms of hardware sales, software sales and lifespan: hardware sales were massive, but software sales were disappointing and the console effectively died in about 2010-ish. Now, whether that was due to third parties not making enough of an effort in courting the new audience, Nintendo for not courting the third parties or said new audience not buying videogames will be an argument that people will be having for years, especially considering the WiiU's performance and how it was dead on arrival, frankly.
The other problem with this discussion is that it's incredibly US-centric. Which makes sense, given that it's a NPD sales thread. However, I do think looking at the worldwide sales, there is something of a discrepancy between the PS4's somewhat mediocre (for a leading console) US performance and the Wii-grade worldwide numbers they're announcing. I suspect that the PS4 is opening up new geographic territories for consoles, and becoming the de-facto leader in several new and upcoming territories. That, and the fact that the US console market has been the most competitive (in that we don't already know the winner for each given month) in well over a decade, which will damper that leader's numbers.
Meanwhile, compare and contrast the Xbone's decent US numbers (for a second place console) to the complete radio silence about the worldwide figures. There is a possibility that the Xbone has already peaked in terms of non-US and UK sales, and that the proportion of US and UK sales (which is already very high, I'd guess in the 60% region LTD) is going to increase. Like with Nintendo's woes, whether that's a problem for the manufacturer or for the market as a whole is another question (although it's hard to argue that Microsoft didn't totally botch the non-US advertising initially).
Ultimately, though, hindsight is 20-20, but I do think it's way too early to book console gaming's funeral.
The other problem with this discussion is that it's incredibly US-centric. Which makes sense, given that it's a NPD sales thread. However, I do think looking at the worldwide sales, there is something of a discrepancy between the PS4's somewhat mediocre (for a leading console) US performance and the Wii-grade worldwide numbers they're announcing. I suspect that the PS4 is opening up new geographic territories for consoles, and becoming the de-facto leader in several new and upcoming territories. That, and the fact that the US console market has been the most competitive (in that we don't already know the winner for each given month) in well over a decade, which will damper that leader's numbers.
Meanwhile, compare and contrast the Xbone's decent US numbers (for a second place console) to the complete radio silence about the worldwide figures. There is a possibility that the Xbone has already peaked in terms of non-US and UK sales, and that the proportion of US and UK sales (which is already very high, I'd guess in the 60% region LTD) is going to increase. Like with Nintendo's woes, whether that's a problem for the manufacturer or for the market as a whole is another question (although it's hard to argue that Microsoft didn't totally botch the non-US advertising initially).
Ultimately, though, hindsight is 20-20, but I do think it's way too early to book console gaming's funeral.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
The problem with saying "exclude the Wii sales, because the Wii demographic are their own special thing that we can ignore" is things like the Nielsen survey results showing upwards of two thirds of PS4 and Xbone owners also owned a Wii.
Because the numbers continue to support that thesis.
Meanwhile the "Sales will really take off when Driveclub / The Order / Bloodborne / Halo: MCC / Sunset Overdrive / [insert 'real next gen title' here] arrives" arguments continue to not show that.
This was more plausible an argument before each console hit their second holiday sales and number plummeted back down to 'okay I guess' non-holiday numbers.
I stopped reading at this point. Wii software sales are higher than PS3 and Xbox 360.
Also the Wii wasn't just 100% casual, nor should it be excluded at all.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Did those numbers state whether the the wii was their only console? because yes a lot of people owned a wii as their secondary console to go with either an 360 or ps3. that's not a great stat to use unless you know the context. if it was their only console its a huge stat but if not its just an irrelevant stat.
The sales already took off. Looking at the ps4 and xbox one they are ahead of their predecessors. that is partly because they had better manufacturing and could have larger launches. more people have ps4 and xbox than had xbox 360 and ps3 this time last gen. sure monthly sales are going to be a little down because people that normally got their consoles after launch were able to get them at launch this gen.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
That the console market is contracting and it isn't just because of the failure of the transition of the audience from Wii to WiiU, nor is there some secret "real gamer" demographic that you can only see in 360+PS3 -> Xbone+PS4
Why exactly does that matter?
The Wii was a market leader last generation, and the Wii had software sales appropriate to a market leading console.
Like, it's the people claiming that all those sales should be disregarded need to demonstrate why exactly that should be the case instead of handwaving "casuals / waggle / kiddies"
EDIT:
Again; that argument is plausible for first year sales where previous generational shortages were in place.
It becomes increasingly difficult to maintain as average monthly sales continue to be low.
Products that only sell in big numbers at holiday times are not products that are enjoying mass appeal.
No I'm saying both expanded the market.
I see people are trying to rewrite reality so that the Wii doesn't count, when it very much does count... This is what I said earlier on the subject of the Wii in regards to the current consoles.
No one had argued with my conclusion about children who grew up with the Wii moving on to PS4 and XB1 now that they are teens and adults and the evidence about who is buying PS4 and XB1 seems to collaborate my point.
No one had argued with my conclusion about children who grew up with the Wii moving on to PS4 and XB1 now that they are teens and adults and the evidence about who is buying PS4 and XB1 seems to collaborate my point.
You put that number out there. If there is no context to the number it means nothing. I never said the wii audience should be disregarded. just that the stat you mentioned was irrelevant if the context isn't given.
spatenfloot
Member
Has anyone compared total software revenues per year from last gen and this one? I think that might be a better comparison to determine if the console market is healthy or not.
That would take out the Wii fad argument at least since the game companies probably don't care who they sell it to.
That would take out the Wii fad argument at least since the game companies probably don't care who they sell it to.
KillerMan91
Member
I can see the both sides of the argument. Yes Wii absolutely counts and you can say that there will be pretty huge contraction in home console space especially in US. Still this contraction doesn't really affect the financials of most of the big publishers because some never managed to quite exploit the Wiis market and some have succesfully moved their Wii business to mobile at least to some degree (like EA). Then of course it also seems that trough digitalization publishers are able to make more money even from smaller console install base this gen. Big western publishers are more healthier than they were at the start of last gen and still making money from console games despite the increased costs.
I think we have trouble in regards to that because of the lack of digital sales numbers and the knowledge that digital is much more popular in the current generation than in the last generation.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
But it is solely because of Nintendo's collapse that gen comparisons are down so what evidence do you have for your so called "thesis".....let me answer that for you: none.
PS4+XB1 is greatly exceeding PS360 which as much as you hate to admit is the core market that publishers are all looking at. PC is on the rise as well.
But at the same time those software sales include Wii Sports, which shipped with every console, Wii Play, which was a $10 addition to the extra controller everyone bought, Wii Fit, Wii Fit Plus, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Party.
Great for Nintendo, but if you're counting them in Generation over Generation software sales numbers, do you get an accurate picture of the health of the industry? That list encompasses what, 190 million software units? If we count all those in our gen over gen growth numbers and it stays flat, does it really mean that the industry has stayed flat? If they don't meet that has it declined?
The Wii presents an analytical challenge.
That's because the assumption has been made that the expanded audience bought the Wii and then after a while put it away into the closet never to be used again. If you go with the alternative hypothesis that instead of going into disuse, the Wii instead became a hand me down product to the children of the expanded audience then your conclusion naturally follows as a possibility.
However, if it is true that a lot of PS4/XB1 owners are Wii graduates, then that would mean the PS3/360 audience isn't upgrading to the new consoles at a high pace. Either they are still playing on their old consoles(cross gen games would encourage this) or they've stopped gaming.
ninjablade
Banned
people keep on arguing about the wii, as if was healthy for the industry, this really depends how you look at things, this was not a traditional console, it was a repackaged GC with motion controls, it didn't sell cause it had all the great third party's games and Nintendo, it didn't sell cause it was a huge jump in power compared to it's predecessor, most of the thirdparty games that sold on it were shovelware, it really sold cause of motion controls, people went crazy for it, now nobody cares, its not something i would judge a console industry being healthy as, cause the wii wasn't about what gamers want from tradition consoles it didn't fit that trend at all.
I don't think I'm doing it right am I.
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr180/jabbamk1/12_zpsg3y12eue.jpg
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
So let's accept that excluding all data related to the Wii is valid;
we have an industry thats demographics have been stagnant for well over a decade, where attach ratios have fallen meaning less of the pie is available, where software revenues have fallen along with quantity of software releases, where accessories basically no longer exist (it's really no surprise publishers want a Rock Band resurgence), and development costs including development time have risen exponentially, where a major publisher went bankrupt along with multiple studios with decades of trading histories.
But its not the industry in trouble, its only Nintendo.
EDIT:
90% of WiiU / PS4 / Xbone owners owned at least one console last gen.
I'll repost the survey data.
Are you for real?
Delusibeta
Banned
The theory I would propose would be that a large chunk of the Wii audience in the US switched to the 360 with the launch of the Kinect (thanks largely to both advertising and a lack of games for the Wii), who then got exposed to traditional console gaming through the rest of the 360's library.
Certainly, it makes more sense than arguing that the PS360 audience largely left gaming, since the oldgen software sales numbers suggest that oldgen is pretty much dead. (I blame Sony and Microsoft's failure to formally reduce the price of oldgen consoles below $200, both the PS3 and 360 really should be sub-$100 now).
I'm not claiming that they were being handed down to the children of the expanded audience, but that many of the expanded audience had children who played the Wii and liked gaming enough to stay with it as they grew older.
As for the PS3/360 audience that isn't upgrading, it is possible that they are abandoning consoles as they exit the target demographic for the PlayStation and Xbox. I would imagine a 40 year old man who had the 360 or PS3 when he was in his early 30s would not have time or not want to play the games he played back then especially if he was a big online multplayer gamer who's beginning to lose his reaction time to just old age.
EDIT:
This is a better theory.
It really annoys me when people say the Wii was 100% casual users.
Hell the PS2 was more casual in ways.
(No i'm not saying everyone who bought PS2 was a casual gamer, just people who assume 100% of people who bought PS3/360 are core gamers and 100% of Wii were casual users who will never buy another console are very wrong).
Hell the PS2 was more casual in ways.
(No i'm not saying everyone who bought PS2 was a casual gamer, just people who assume 100% of people who bought PS3/360 are core gamers and 100% of Wii were casual users who will never buy another console are very wrong).
Evidence of contraction in the market is evidence of contraction in the market. News at 11. You know, publishers include (or at least used to include) more than a few big ones making shooting and sports games.
No it doesn't. Software is software. You don't go and say "well the ps2 didn't sell that much software because the success of sing star doesn't count and sony bundled socom a bunch of times". It's not a challenge at all.
So most of the games that sold were shovelware now? Man that's a LOT of shovelware (550 million or so sales that didn't belong to nintendo). And the previous market leaders, like the ps2, definitely didn't have or sell any of that. And so now it's about what constitutes a "real gamer". Man watching the publishers shift more and more resources to mobile is going to be painful for you.
ninjablade
Banned
probably 90% casual, it's very hard to imagine a console selling 100 millions, many of those gamers playing those amazing nintendo games and not wanting more, yet not even 10% has managed to pick up a wiiu. that's ptretty insane.
Delusibeta
Banned
That's probably largely due to pretty much all of the commercially successful third party games for the Wii being casual games. I can't think of a core Wii game that Nintendo didn't publish that wasn't a smoking crater sales-wise, outside of perhaps Call of Duty 3 on launch.
Many Wii owners owned multiple consoles. (Either PS3/360)
Most have moved over to these consoles for the third party games.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
So you're admitting that you had no numbers to support this "thesis". You said you just did:
Even though the numbers, are evidently showing how PS4+XB1 are doing significantly better than PS360 while Nintendo had collapsed catastrophically.
I think a lot will be happy with stagnation in the number of core users considering how large that number was (150 million +).
Software ratio's falling? Link.
Software revenue falling? Link. Next gen games are more expensive than ever at retail, there's also a larger uptake in digital than ever before, DLC all over the place as well as microtransactions.
Development costs rising for AAA is the norm. Whats more important is publishers budgeting titles bearing in mind their sales. Not every game is going to have a massive budget like that or have a budget that will increase to such an extent. In fact look at DBZ XV. Its budget is not going to be notably higher than PS360 entries but its achieved the best debut since the PS2 era.
unapersson
Member
Wow, it's growing alright ;-)
I'll have a play later when I can get near a PC to check what the chart configuration should be. That looks more like what I expected, but each year should just be a sum of the generation sales for that year, rather than LTD.
edit: Chucking some very rough figures into Gnumeric it looks a bit like this: http://i.imgur.com/GnrG1dk.png
ninjablade
Banned
exactly so why did people buy the wii in the first place? when all the big third party games were on 360/ps3 in the first place, its not nintendo games, its motion controls friend, the wii wasn't even a real step up compared to the GC, just look at the wiiu, its a huge jump, nintendo games in beautiful HD for the first time, yet its not selling, most of the people buying wii were casual, its as clear as day.
spatenfloot
Member
Not really. Full retail price for games is still $60. Hasn't really changed in decades. Granted, DLC is a recent thing.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...rices-up-by-gbp3-in-2013.html#~p71zBHxCenyL2h
I'm in the UK and they are charging up to £60 for some games or near that mark. PS360 games never used to be that expensive.
This is such a terrible argument.
It's like saying everyone who bought a PSP was a casual user and didn't buy a PS Vita because they're only casual gamers.
I'm not saying the majority of sales on Wii weren't from a casual user base and that the console sold on hype, it very much did. But to imply that 100 million users who bought the Wii are all casual and will not buy any other console is wrong.
Where the hell do you buy your games? I've never paid more than £35 for a PS4 game.
ninjablade
Banned
isn't that what the wii was trying to be in console form with a sprinkle of great nintendo games, selling ancient tech as a nextgen console and motion controls that were inferior to a regular controller, and most of there third party games were shovelware garbage, things that you would find in the mobile market.
And now your previous posts make sense.
If you're not going to post sensibly then jut leave the thread.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Because numbers aren't public, so the best we can do is extrapolate from what info we get;
- at the start of last gen it wasn't just PS3 + 360; it was PS3 + 360 + PS2, and we know that 360 and PS3 numbers this gen have fallen off a cliff.
- A stagnant industry is - by definition - not a healthy one
- Link for software tie ratios
- software revenue falling; the last x months of NPD results stating YoY decline in software + overall lack of retail releases + aforementioned collapse of last gen sales
Never mind the rest of the inanity of this post (note: playing FPS with dual analog is inferior to infrared, and playing virtual sports are often improved by motion controllers, as you're going to see if VR takes off). Are you honestly trying to argue that the wii ecosystem (gaming console) in any way matches that of mobile? Good lord, are you 12? Do you have any idea what the ps2, ps1 or any successful gaming console constitutes of in terms of library? Hint: it involves a lot of software you don't like. Almost none of your post is analytically relevant.
ninjablade
Banned
I don't pay attention to handhelds, but looking at past Nintendo consoles what made the wii be such a success, it had hardware that was the weakest ever in nextgen console, it didn't get great thirdparty support, and didn't even have real online network, what made such a success compared to previous efforts, it was motion controls.
Red Steel
Call of Duty 3
Dragon Quest Swordss
Sonic games earlier on
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
PES 2008 (Europe)
Star Wars: The Force Unleashed
No More Heroes
de Blob
Call of Duty: World at War
Hero of Legend
Member
When was the last time we got a LTD on Bayo 2? It was 135k in Dec right?
We know it sold other 10,000 copies in January, and (to be more accurate), back in December it was <135,000, not 135,000 (digital excluded). It was probably around that, though. I hope we get some hints about how much it sold in February too
