More Fun To Compute
Member
Referendum is once per generation isn't it? That has no bearing on this election. If Scottish people wanted independence they could have voted for it. They can just vote Labour if they don't want Tory.
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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!
- Thread starter Volotaire
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Referendum is once per generation isn't it? That has no bearing on this election. If Scottish people wanted independence they could have voted for it. They can just vote Labour if they don't want Tory.
If there's no chance of another referendum on the horizon, why would the SNP take the risk of undermining Westminster governance?
More Fun To Compute
Member
I dunno maybe they are dishonest.
From the Question time tonight, Miliband seemed pretty decisive about not forming coalitions. It's gutting as hell, but I get the feeling it's going to be Tories in power yet again, likely with Lib Dem at the helm. Which is weird in itself, a predominantly and historically left leaning party being the main reason the main right wing party is able to stay in power. Sigh...
They don;t have the numbers if the polls are correct. Any tory queens speech could be voted down by labour and the SNP.
Thoughts on this article and analysis?
The newspapers are preparing for a coup, and Labour is doing nothing to stop them.
The newspapers are preparing for a coup, and Labour is doing nothing to stop them.
Labour's plan is actually quite bold and simple.
The SNP have said they'd vote out the Tories, full stop, so Miliband is calling their bluff by effectively saying: "OK, I'm not going to give you anything, not a single concession or point of negotiation, vote me down if you like".
This gets him out of the apparently toxic accusations of a Labour/SNP coalition or any talks of a deal, and puts the heat back on the SNP to follow through with their anti-Tory position.
Will it work? It's definitely a gamble, and it's still 'relying' on the SNP, but it certainly gives Ed plausible deniability.
Tory / Lib Dem Mk.2 is a non-starter, unless the polls are utter bollocks on a whole new level.
Sounds more like he's going for a minority government rather than conceding to the Tories. Not too bad an idea, this falls a lot on the SNP. If they stay true to their promise and vote against a Tory government, then Labour will be in power with no concessions on their policies which would alienate their voters. If the SNP backs away from their promise and allow a Tory government through then they will anger a lot of their voters who may go back to Labour. Can't say I expected an actual answer aside from the patronising "we're going for a majority" but it was good to see that we did from one of the potential prime ministers at least.
Psychotext
Member
Sounds about right. The situation with the majority of the print media at the moment is bizarre.
Err...what? Could you explain that more clearly, and also explain why that wouldn't alienate their newly-gained former-Labour swing base?
Because we all know* that Labour would accept a C&S agreement if the SNP offered it once the smoke has cleared, whether Miliband keeps to his cute little ultimatum or not.
Am I a dick for disliking whenever Cameron brings up his kid to win an argument on the NHS? He mentions it whenever someone talks about nhs cuts or privatization, always strikes me as being very exploitative of a tragedy and a way to avoid answering any actual questions. If he mentioned it once, sure, but I have heard it at least 8 times over the last few weeks, its a shitty thing to use a tragedy to deflect a question and make it almost impossible for anyone to pull you up on it because of the nature of the tragedy.
Psychotext
Member
No, it's a horrible thing to do. It was never mentioned in the past, either by him or by the media... rightfully. Now though, it seems he pulls it out as a shield as required. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror.
Jezbollah
Member
Hmm not really. He's mentioned it plenty of times in PMQs..
Psychotext
Member
News to me. I don't recall any mention of it in the early days, bar the obvious condolences.
My opinion is no more valid than yours hence politics exist.
Even professors in economics are mostly guessing, albeit a more educated guess tilted to their political bias. Some people clearly struggle to understand this.
Nothing is "obvious."
The first thing the SNP will want is to secure the promises the No campaign made in order to keep the union.
If those fail to materialise, I can quite easily see them pushing for another referendum. And who could blame them? Scotland has been promised the world, Westminster has no intention of ever delivering and now the nation is being dragged through the mud and told that it's elected MPs have no place in a legitimate UK government.
Fool me once...
As an outsider, I don't understand why people think a vote-by-vote basis would be better than a coalition. A coalition means negotiation and compromises and it means that all the "extreme" wishes for both parties are left aside, while a vote-by-vote basis means SNP will vote strictly the things they fully agree with, leaving a Labour government in a very tight position.
Nearly half of them did vote for it. And the other hand voted against it on the assumption that they were equal participants in the farcical 'United Kingdom', which has generally been proven false by the lengths at which Westminster parties have gone to demonise them.
So yeah, I'd imagine the next referendum (cmon 2020) will be a different story. Or just UDI it of getting every seat at the next election...
killer_clank
Member
It's gone a bit unnoticed, but the Fixed Term Parliament act essentially means governments can lose votes without bringing down the government. Assuming the maths works out, the SNP could risk the Labour party losing on key votes if there were no concessions given. So voting for a queen's speech isn't actually the be all and end all.
No, its an opinion piece from one of the worlds leading Keynesian economists (not to mention if he was European, he would describe himself as as socialist). Asking someone who believes in Keynesian economics if they believe in the austerity is like asking a turkey if it will vote for Christmas.
That's the whole point on this. You are just seeing things from the Keynesian angle and nothing more. Which I am not surprised about as you obviously lean left. Though it would be interesting if you follow him in everything he believes, like high inflation, or if you just pick and choose the parts you like in just a general sense.
jimbobsmells
Member
Morning everyone. Missed QT last night, I hear it was fun.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Did anybody else see the absolute weapon being taken apart by Brillo and Portillo?
It was excruciating. These social media celebrities really are the depths of human existence.
It was excruciating. These social media celebrities really are the depths of human existence.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's called Question Time, not Answer Time ;-P
The new SNP poster in Scotland literally says "Lock the tories out. Vote snp." Labour don't need to offer them anything. They've promised their voters that they'll vote in a Labour government right there.
More Fun To Compute
Member
As I understand it most of what SNP will be about is to position themselves and public opinion in favour of another independence vote which is why they shouldn't be given a strong position in a coalition. It's like voting UKIP for the European parliament. The aim is to make parliament appear even more farcical than it is, which shouldn't be too hard even for SNP. Admittedly it is sort of fun if you hate the system and want to watch politicians suffer publicly but I don't see what real use it is.
Perhaps if the SNP forced the issue, which they damn well know would lose any confidence in them, we expect them to behave... its up to the parties already there and those whom offered Scotland its cake if we voted to stay apart of this glorious union, rather especially.
The SNP could literally just sit there, abstain on everything and whom ever was in power would fumble and get a bad image, hilarious really.
PJV3
Member
I sort of like the idea of the PM and cabinet being defeated more often by parliament, I hate that it's usually a rubber stamp. Obviously that gets dicey when it's the budget etc.
Then again I really enjoyed the bust ups at Labour conferences, but that was seen as a bad thing by the country/press. A government needing to negotiate with MPs appeals to me, the SNP could be a blast of fresh air for Westminster.
Then again I really enjoyed the bust ups at Labour conferences, but that was seen as a bad thing by the country/press. A government needing to negotiate with MPs appeals to me, the SNP could be a blast of fresh air for Westminster.
jimbobsmells
Member
Damn that's terrible news. If only we had a way to print more money or something.
Because they didn't. When the Economist is saying the same thing, it adds quite a lot of weight to those words. The only shameful thing is he should have been saying this years ago rather than suddenly turning around one week before the election.
PJV3
Member
That only works when you give it to the City, the printing machine hates peasants.
CyclopsRock
Member
If they actually *abstain* then, I dunno, I think quite a few Scottish people will wake up and wonder why they have a Sinn Fein style lack of representation in the country's primary legislature. Not sure anyone comes out of that looking *good* but it's hard to imagine anyone looks as least-bad as the Tories, since it'll be Ed in No 10 in that situation, with the exciting prospect of being a pretty short lived PM. He'll be stuffing as many towels as he can steal into his bag before his first budget.
(This is predicated on the assumption that if the Tories plus LDs have a majority, they won't be stumbling irrespective of what the SNP do).yup
I really can't believe I'm saying this, but if I didn't live in a Labour/Tory marginal where they don't have a chance, and if the hung parliament maths didn't make a vote for them pretty much a vote for the Tories, I'd really consider voting Lib Dem.
I think Nick did come across well in the debates, and although going back on the tuition fees pledge was a huge mistake, in a lot of ways the new system is a lot better for low earners after university.
I definitely hope they aren't completely wiped out next week anyway.
I think Nick did come across well in the debates, and although going back on the tuition fees pledge was a huge mistake, in a lot of ways the new system is a lot better for low earners after university.
I definitely hope they aren't completely wiped out next week anyway.
JesseEwiak
Member
At the end of the day, they're doing what they are elected to do. The Scottish people want more Devolution (and a lot want Independence) so SNP are getting into a position where they can help deliver that. If they do end up with all of Scotland's seats as some polls predict and they still don't get taken seriously by the Labour/Conservative government then it's just going to increase attitude of "Our vote doesn't matter" that is still lingering in Scotland from the last election.
FlammableD
Banned
This. Being treated with more fear than UKIP, DUP and Britain First doesn't help matters either.
They didn't by the measure of most post war UK governments. They were guilty of not being good Keynesians and not putting aside money for the brief point they were running a surplus, but other than that their deficit running was pretty bang average.Before the crash the Lib Dems were wanting to spend more and the Tories were happily telling all and sundry they'd match Labours spending and that Labour were stifling the city with all their regulation. Don't get me wrong Labour fucked up bank regulation but you'd have to go some to convince me the Tories wouldn't have been just as bad if not worse.
There's an argument Miliband could make, but at this point a largely incorrect narrative has been made gospel so he's in an impossible position. Most of the massive increase in deficit under the latter day of the Labour administration was a result of having to keep the banks afloat and having to pump stimulus into the economy. After his initial cuts and the relative stagnation which followed Osborne has largely followed that he's just been a bit quieter about it.
CyclopsRock
Member
Anthony Painter is taking the rather sensible approach to all this that says that we are in uncharted political water here and the received wisdom simply doesn't give credible answers. Obviously some people will get the estimates of what'll happen right but, boys, I think we're going to see an election here that gets quite a few boring A-Level history essays written about it in the future.
Not AS history, obv...
Not AS history, obv...
Andy Burnham on radio 5 this morning has just confirmed they are going to put a queen speech to parliament and say to the SNP vote it down like 1979 if you dare...
presuming the polls are within range all you left wing voters are about to be happy... Labour Government almost certainly incoming....
also Lib Dems said this morning they would not go near the tories if they involved UKIP in any function
presuming the polls are within range all you left wing voters are about to be happy... Labour Government almost certainly incoming....
also Lib Dems said this morning they would not go near the tories if they involved UKIP in any function
Thornton Reed
Member
I was so convinced before question time Miliband would enter a coalition with SNP and form a government, surely that isn't going to happen now. So what was his plan now? another election hoping to get the Scottish vote that way, or to scare the Scots now?
I have no idea where this is going to go now, predictions?
I have no idea where this is going to go now, predictions?
as I just said, Andy Burnham just confirmed it, they will go minority on the basis the SNP will not vote against them and they are going to quote 1979
A Lot!!
PJV3
Member
Haven't got a clue, it depends if English voters have a panic attack in the polling booth about the beasties north of the wall.
Labour minority government or god knows.
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