The author really struck on some gold there.
Even consensual sex sounds awful when you replace the partner with a 6 year old.
More outrage at depiction of rape in Game of Thrones television show (spoilers)
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Even consensual sex sounds awful when you replace the partner with a 6 year old.
The show has managed the passage of time horribly. Just pretend there's fast travel enabled.
I know, it'a almost like we expect more out of art instead of just senseless sadism with not discernible purpose!!
It's like a show I worked on where every week, we basically butchered a bunch of women. There was a tangential reason to the "plot", I suppose, maybe kind of, but the network, studio, or other writers fought back about why this was necessary, the response was always, "well, it's a brutal show." Brutality in art needs to have a point. Brutality can be senseless, and that can be a point in itself, but when your show already has a thorny history with rape, you need to be super extra special conscious that every single decision you make serves a narrative purpose and must be then given the necessary weight and time to process said narrative movements.
Depicting rape can serve a purpose. Of all shows, Sons of Anarchy did it so well in season 2, spending an entire season deconstructing that character's emotional arc and pain that ended up being the spine of the season. It's one of the reasons why that season is probably the best that Sons has ever done. I don't see them doing the same here, if just because this show already has so much to cover, that it won't actually have time to deconstruct Sansa as a survivor.
Was it pointless? I'm genuinely asking. Something is going down. Either Stannis is coming from the wall to take Winterfell or Littlefinger is going to convince the queen to let him take Winterfell. "The North remembers" and is waiting to act. Ramsey and/or the Boltons clearly don't get to keep Winterfell. So what happens when one of the two of them, or both, come?
I see this as either Reek's chance for redemption or it's Sansa's chance for revenge on the Boltons. Reek was quitely playing the role of dutiful servant. Now he has a face to reflect his betrayal. Now he has a chance for his shame and regret to overcome his abuse and torture so he could turn on his master. He has to watch bad thing happen to someone else he knows and possibly cares about instead of just taking it himself.
Then, what else was Ramsey going to do to engender enough hatred from demur Sansa to actually get her to act. His father murdered her mother and brother. Would that have been enough to push her over the edge if Ramsey was a perfect gentlemen or would she still sit and be just a piece to be moved around. What if he beat her? Is that enough? I don't think it is because that's not who she is. It takes something this over the top to get her to act. Now she's finally home. Now she has a specific reason to hate a specific person who is right there. Say what you want about the little shit who was Joffery, she just sat in fear and took all his abuse until she was cast aside and escaped.
Now though, when Sansa finds out Reek didn't kill Bran and Rikkon, Sansa and Reek have the opportunity to overcome Ramsey or the Bolton's from the inside together. Reek gets redemption, or as much as he can, and Sansa gets he home back and is in a position to do something for once, besides just getting her father killed and being a simp.
Hari Seldon
Member
I guess we are not ready for a historically accurate Mongol series.
Is it ?
While I don't agree with him on the general thesis, he choose the right way to handle it.
Avoid media that contains rape.
It's not like he asked for media bannings or have I missed a line ?
Your point is certainly shining through in some different posts, with people trying to alter the authors storyline.
youbastards
Member
But at the same time, if you don't like the "art" in question, you don't get to demand the artist change it to fit your views. You either accept it for what it is and how it is presented, or choose not to look at it any further.....or bitch about it unendingly on the internet.
Will it have dragons and magic?
PreFire
Member
So, you don't agree with me? That's cool, you're entitled to your opinion.
Yes, I think a rapist has more evil intentions than a person who killed someone. A person can kill/murder someone for a number of reasons that aren't selfish and sometimes in the heat of the moment.
When a person rapes another person, that's just some devilish, selfish, disgusting thing to do to anyone. There's no heat of the moment.. They know what they're doing and they scar their victims for life. They essentially murdered their victims by making them live with the fact they were raped.
excelsiorlef
Member
I'm not demanding shit. Jesus I'm having a conversation.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It better
You certainly get to criticize where you think the artist when wrong.
youbastards
Member
I meant the figurative "you", not the literal. Relax.
RockTurtle
Member
this is the same series that had a pregnant woman getting stabbed to death in her stomach right?
So art can't be criticized ever?
They slit a baby's throat too.
AstroZombie
Banned
It's no surprise there is a dip in the shows quality, they are adapting the worst books of the series. We should actually praise D&D for cutting out a lot of the junk. 66.67% of AFFC and ADWD is pure rubbish.
Good luck making a show about Tyrion and Penny riding pigs, or Dany lost in the Dothraki sea for an episode having explosive diarrhea. The more she drank, the more she shat. The more she shat, indeed.
Maybe we could get a 60 minute Brienne episode where she rides from village to village searching for a highborn maid of three and ten, with a fair face and auburn hair?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This post makes no sense. You don't even know what happens after this, so I can't fathom how you can argue the scene has no weight beyond shock value.
People, especially women, were treated like shit and had stuff like rape happen to them in medieval times. To quote Martin, "To omit [sexual violence] from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books." He's not wrong. Its unpleasant, but it is supposed to be unpleasant.
Like 3 of your questions are redundant.
Was it in character for him to wait until they were married? Yes, because up to that point, they weren't married. The goal is for them to be married in the first place. He has to get her to agree to marry him, raping her before that kind of defeats the purpose.
The marriage did seem pretty immediate, didn't it? But im not sure how much time has passed. And the time that did pass was to get Sansa to buy into being with the Boltons/Ramsey willingly so they can exploit her being a Stark. It seemed like they tried being as cordial as possible to her given what they did to her family. She needs to play along for the people of Winterfell to follow the Boltons.
Did you want them to get married as Stannis is knocking down winterfell? C'mon.
And the purpose is to break Reek back into being Theon, and to have this be a further turning point for Sansa in regards to her relationship with Theon and her view on her own situation. Now they have a "connection" for lack of a better word, to unite them against Ramsey/escape whatever.
heliosRAzi
Banned
But this show had people killing people for selfish and non-passionate reasons, too.
Cersei's years of rape at the hands of Robert was actually handled really well. It gave Cersei some pathos even though she caused a kid to be tossed out the window and was one of the main antagonists. It adds something to her character and all her actions going forward. She rebels when the various men in her life try to control her because she doesn't want that to ever happen again and protects the secret of her children's parentage so desperately because she won't let the violence she experienced happen to them.
I really, truly, hope Sansa's development can build from this similarly instead of just treating it as another horrible thing that happened. I just don't current have confidence the show runners can pull this off.
I really, truly, hope Sansa's development can build from this similarly instead of just treating it as another horrible thing that happened. I just don't current have confidence the show runners can pull this off.
Dreadnought
Member
Fenderputty
Banned
Man ... I bet people didn't trivialize rape during the time of kings and queens.
Fuck ... Ramsay's father talked about how he raped his mother ... This was supposed to be a bonding scene with father and son.
GOT trivializes tons of bad things.
I think you're right. It seemed like more of a plot device to make it clear that now she's justified in wanting to kill (or otherwise take revenge on) Ramsay too, and not just his dad.
It sure can. But it seems hypocritical if the multitude of questionable things that have already occurred have not resulted in an uproar but this scene is the one that has people up in arms all of a sudden. Can't pick and choose the outrage.
8BitsAtATime
Member
Wasn't Dany pretty much raped by Drogo
The problem is that it's hard for people in today's day and age to comprehend a media like with all the progress and the continual progress we are making with women's rights. because this was an accurate way a bedding rituals would be like in way back then. The women in the marriage had no say in whether they do or not. But whatever... Maybe we will grow as a society after we make our progress and allow media to explore these situation's that we chose to ignore and bury away instead of well... burying them away.
That's why there are different degrees of murder with different intentions in mind, so your general statement doesn't really apply to it, unless you make clear which kind of murder you're speaking about.
My fault.
That completely changes the situation, something I wouldn't ever agree with.
On one hand I felt they didn't need to show it because we know this is highly likely to be Sansa's outcome and Theon wouldn't do shit about it. On the other hand there were people in the GoT No spoilers thread actually expecting Theon to do something (even though we saw him not take his sister's help or cut Ramsey's throat when given a shaving knife.)
In the end they should've implied it happened without showing it.
PurpleSquid
Neo Member
... I didn't mind the scene... I actually kinda liked it, it was really emotional and powerful imo. all we see is Theon's expressions which was exactly my expression. I wanted Theon to do something but it just enforces more just how broken the guy is. But I can totally see the outrage, its a very sensitive topic to a majority and many feel that it should never be touched upon.
Can't trow "it's congruent with the time period" because WINTERS DON'T LAST YEARS AND WE DIDN'T HAD DRAGONS ON THE TIME PERIOD
CrocMother
Banned
Rape and torture are par for the course. There was similar outrage at a pregnant woman getting stabbed in the stomach a few seasons ago. Some people will stop watching but it will still be popular.
That one was even worse IMO, because she didn't even consent to the marriage, she was forced into it. The show made it pretty clear that Sansa, even if she was manipulated by Baelish, consciously chose to go through with it so she could avenge her family by destroying the Boltons from the inside.
Grimm Fandango
Member
Yeah and it was certainly more explicit IMO.
Definitely off-topic but was there this kind of reaction to the Girl with the Dragoon Tattoo (Fincher) rape scene? That was really hard to watch personally.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
But there isn't any weight to that. You're just allowing the viewer to put it out of sight, out of mind - the scene is supposed to be horrific for both the viewer and for Theon.
Dany?
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I guess we'll agree to disagree. If brutality has to have a point for you to find something worthwhile then this show isn't for you. What was the point of the over top death of Oberyn? That was the episode that made my girlfriend tap out and stop watching. It got a reaction out of me as well and I guess that was kind of the idea.
The Sansa scene is pretty consistent with the tone of the show so far, Ramsay has been awful since he was introduced. Sansa has been treated awfully from the moment she left Winterfell.
IMO it has to be building towards something with her and I look forward to seeing how they handle Sansa going forward. Not sure why people are assuming it will be brushed under the rug and used as a catalyst for Theon's character to change.
Hari Seldon
Member
Actually I think it is going the opposite way, society seems to be regressing into demanding historical and artistic censorship.
Well, more people are likely to have experienced rape than murder, and one has a survivor who can point out problems with a fictional depiction.
Is it more sinister? I don't think that's the point. Do we view them different because of our proximity to them? Most definitely.
If that's the case then sure, I'll be very disappointed that they made this scene. I simply believe it will have a purpose in the story. Which is why I'm a little confused why so many people are claiming it doesn't, as if they know the future.
Ninja Scooter
Member
That's fine. You can say they are bad storytellers or writers but it's saying that the episode trivializes or minimizes rape in some way is what is a stretch for me.
Borboleta Amarela
Member
Reading the title before watching the episode I was bracing myself. Turns out the show's done worse.
I don't get this outrage at all.
I don't get this outrage at all.
I dunno maybe I'm just a little sick of rape having to be a catalyst for a woman to change and overcome adversity as a plot point. And I have no faith because of how much ground the show has to cover and how they handled Dany and Cersei's rapes earlier in the series. There isn't really a lot of goodwill left on the subject, but again, I'm going to see how the rest of the season plays out.
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