If this scene accomplishes nothing and doesn't show how terrible Ramsey is going to be to Sansa, and how it tore apart Reek to watch, then what was the real reason for putting it in? Just to get a story on the news? To put women on the show in their place?
If this scene accomplishes nothing and doesn't show how terrible Ramsey is going to be to Sansa, and how it tore apart Reek to watch, then what was the real reason for putting it in? Just to get a story on the news? To put women on the show in their place?
If this scene accomplishes nothing and doesn't show how terrible Ramsey is going to be to Sansa, and how it tore apart Reek to watch, then what was the real reason for putting it in? Just to get a story on the news? To put women on the show in their place?
He obviously cares about Sansa. He left her because if he didn't, he'd be getting her and himself in trouble with the iron throne. He didn't stop Joffrey from beating her because jthen he would have died. Instead he bided his time and killed Joffrey later! I don't think you understand most of what happens in this show.
Ramsay still hasn't been violent to Sansa, at least not comparable to how he treats everyone else. Obviously Sansa isn't crazy about him, but this dudes an angel compared to how book Ramsay treats his wife. And he never kissed Reek, he flayed him. Like the dudes a total price don't get me wrong, but he's treating Sansa really nicely.
The marriage wouldn't work from the vale because then there would be no marriage lol. And I think Brienne will try to (and might succeed in) killing Stannis. Just a guess though. Brienne's whole arc for a little while now has been "I'm slowly becoming friends with Pod while making everyone worse because of my own idiocy".
Youre refusing to share with us how you think it should have played out instead.
You really think the Boltans are in a strong position versus the Vale? The Vale has stayed out of all the conflict, they will have a stronger force than the Boltons who are mostly hated in the North anyway. Of course they could have negotiated a betrothal, likely from a position of strength...The ridiculous thing in the show is we didnt see anything about the dowry or what Roose gave LF for this...Oh some nominal support, like he was in a position fo strength in this stituation...Roose was in a position of weakness...he hasn't got many trustworth allies. The Freys and the Lanisters...probably the worst combination of treachery in the whole series. He should have paid the earth to have his son marry the legitimate heir of the Stark family. Roose is warden of the North in name only. He is confined to his fort and at war. It is LF who had the absolute leverage in this situation and he did bugger all to exploit. Instead not much is said on this...It is a bad a plot line period.
Do we really consider that Cersei and Jaime scene rape? They banged in a tower while visiting Winterfell with the King. Later, Cersei forced herself on Jaime, he initially resists, and they banged on that table right after talking to their dad. Later still Jaime forced himself on Cersei, she initially resists, and they banged at their sons funeral. In the context of their previously depicted sexual encounters, they are sexual thrill seekers and they get off on having risky, incestuous sex at wildly inappropriate times.
I never did till reading this thread. Like you said, they pushed a kid out of a tower to cover up their sex, and seemed to like doing it because it was forbidden, and doing it in crazy places added to that allure.
That scene reminded me a bit of the Deckard/Rachel scene in Bladerunner. I suppose it's open to interpretation based on an understanding of the characters.
I never did till reading this thread. Like you said, they pushed a kid out of a tower to cover up their sex, and seemed to like doing it because it was forbidden, and doing it in crazy places added to that allure.
Cersei was against throwing Bran out and later chastises him for being an idiot. She also chastises his lack of caution in both the tower and sept scenes.
Perhaps I need to watch the scene again but did Sansa refuse? She obviously wasn't excited to do it but she started taking off her clothes when asked and laid down on the bed when directed without force.
It was a character building moment for both Sansa and Reek. Not understanding the outrage.
Depicting rape in the books or the series is nothing wrong. I don't get those people crying out because of that.
What I do get is the criticism for it being bad writing. To me it never made any sense that Sansa even got written into the role of a completely different character. Littlefinger would have never given Sansa to the Boltons. Nobody even knew where she is at. How the fuck does he expect that no one in King's Landing would get to know when an important ally in the war marries his son to SANSA STARK?! And how the fuck did they actually not hear about it?! Sansa is one of the most wanted person in Westeros right behind Tyrion. It makes no sense at all.
The show has definitely overdone it with it's mentality to introduce as less new characters as possible and just push known characters and fan favorites into the audience's face. Did it really HAD to be Jaquen who greets Arya in Braavos, seriously? Even though he could have been just as well where he was in the book at
the Citadel? Especially because Sam going to the Citadel was already teased in the show and will therefore most likely happen. The prologue of AFFC would have been a perfect way to introduce the place AND shove a fan favorite into the audience's face
. Same with Bronn and Jaime, even though I think that is quite a good change in theory. I'm not against changes in general if done well. Sadly the storyline is not very well done, the sandsnakes are disappointing and where the fuck is the heir to Dorne. Same goes for Varys accompanying Tyrion, unnecessary and
it will weaken his return to King's Landing.
. Also leaving out important characters which could have been introduced here. We're already 6 episodes into the season, it wouldn't have hurt to introduce some new characters.
It seems like the show started to think it's audience is too stupid too keep up with too many characters, no matter how important they would be. Therefore they got into a situation like this where they "had to" let Sansa get into this situation.
Perhaps I need to watch the scene again but did Sansa refuse? She obviously wasn't excited to do it but she started taking off her clothes when asked and laid down on the bed when directed without force.
It was a character building moment for both Sansa and Reek. Not understanding the outrage.
There's nothing which builds character like getting raped, I guess.
And yes, if a girl 'willingly' bends over for you because she thinks you might cut her skin off and feed her to your dogs, you're raping her.
There's nothing which builds character like getting raped, I guess.
And yes, if a girl 'willingly' bends over for you because she thinks you might cut her skin off and feed her to your dogs, you're raping her.
As a woman I don't see how covering up or avoiding real issues and situations that happen to women helps. Not talking about things leads to more ignorance. Talking about things in only one way or form does the same.
Rape is a reality, a most terrible one but a reality still. Same as murder, violence, abuse, all of which is shown throughout the show happening to both sexes in similar proportions. It's even frequently shown to happen to children. The show has been pretty well balanced in this. There are many abused and mistreated women, but there are also many incredibly powerful women, and women transitioning between both states. Cersei is one of the most cherished characters and she is both powerful and a victim. Likewise, there are powerful men, as one would expect, but also abused men, completely striped of their dignity. And it's not just Theon, it even references abusive families from very early on in the form of The Hound. And the show also gives us characters who are broken from the abuse and characters who are built from it. Also, it shows both male and female prostitution.
I think the scene in question was actually handled rather well, using Theon's very visual pain as a good counterpoint. They didn't glorify the act, and if the writers have any good sense at all this will work as a good starting point to building both Sansa's and Theon's characters and their possible relationship. I haven't read this far in the books, unfortunately, so I can't say.
If people would quit watching GoT after every instance of incest, rape, child murder, gratuitous violence, nudity, implied horribleness, decapitations, consented murder, gay intercourse etc, there'd be like, two viewers left by now.
There's nothing which builds character like getting raped, I guess.
And yes, if a girl 'willingly' bends over for you because she thinks you might cut her skin off and feed her to your dogs, you're raping her.
That's why I'm asking because I don't remember such threats. She willingly married this man and willingly started to get undressed. She seemed more forced by her own motives and the expectations of the time than Ramsay forcing himself on her if that makes sense?
If people would quit watching GoT after every instance of incest, rape, child murder, gratuitous violence, nudity, implied horribleness, decapitations, consented murder, gay intercourse etc, there'd be like, two viewers left by now.
Exactly...so no need to question why people might have more problem with Sansa be shoehorned into this than Jayne Poole? Not all characters are created equally...I couldnt give much of rats ass about most of the characters in this series and there is nothing wrong with that. I do think reading the book is a factor though...In terms of character developement and timing this just feels stupid...If she was going to be abused from a narrative perspective it should have been at KL...Her whole plotline here is bad writing. Sansa might not know the extent of it but we do...this gives us as viewers more insight and allows to understand that she is deeper into it than she is aware. If she knew this guy was probably worse than Joffrey she sure as hell would have never agreed to marry him. Even then it wasn't really what she wanted...It is because of some tenuous idea of revenge...which she has shown zero idea of how she is going to accomplish in the enemies stronghold...
PSGames: Yeah this played out in isolation (aside from Ramsays nasty jibes) like a an arranged loveless marriage...However, it is not exactly typical...becuase Ramsay is a degenerate psycho...that makes a difference. Most people weren't and aren't...
Depicting rape in the books or the series is nothing wrong. I don't get those people crying out because of that.
What I do get is the criticism for it being bad writing. To me it never made any sense that Sansa even got written into the role of a completely different character. Littlefinger would have never given Sansa to the Boltons. Nobody even knew where she is at. How the fuck does he expect that no one in King's Landing would get to know when an important ally in the war marries his son to SANSA STARK?! And how the fuck did they actually not hear about it?! Sansa is one of the most wanted person in Westeros right behind Tyrion. It makes no sense at all.
The show has definitely overdone it with it's mentality to introduce as less new characters as possible and just push known characters and fan favorites into the audience's face. Did it really HAD to be Jaquen who greets Arya in Braavos, seriously? Even though he could have been just as well where he was in the book at
the Citadel? Especially because Sam going to the Citadel was already teased in the show and will therefore most likely happen. The prologue of AFFC would have been a perfect way to introduce the place AND shove a fan favorite into the audience's face
. Same with Bronn and Jaime, even though I think that is quite a good change in theory. I'm not against changes in general if done well. Sadly the storyline is not very well done, the sandsnakes are disappointing and where the fuck is the heir to Dorne. Same goes for Varys accompanying Tyrion, unnecessary and
it will weaken his return to King's Landing.
. Also leaving out important characters which could have been introduced here. We're already 6 episodes into the season, it wouldn't have hurt to introduce some new characters.
It seems like the show started to think it's audience is too stupid too keep up with too many characters, no matter how important they would be. Therefore they got into a situation like this where they "had to" let Sansa get into this situation.
The father was murdered right in front of two of them. Another saw the Bloody aftermath of her murdered brother and mother, one is a cripple, the other has been abused by a king, and forced to do many things she hasn't wanted.
All of them are victims, I would label them the most tragic characters of the series honestly.
Are the people outraged at this also outraged with the torture, incest, public execution, murder, gratuitous gore, attempted genocide, etc that appears regularly on the show?
Yes, rape is bad and horrific, but why does that spark so much anger when the show is constantly dark?
People have said they were "done" with this show since
Ned Stark bit it
spoiler: they aren't. silly people thinking they can stop watching entertaining tv. there is no "last straw." Mary Sue and the rest will be back next season
My take on the scene? I was dreading it the whole season, but I thought it was going to be a lot worse. I thought they were going to show it onscreen and make it even more trivial then it was. I'll see what the repercussions are next episode before I decide what I think.
Then again, no rape at all in TV would be fantastic. Hell, I would legit support legislation banning onscreen rape. Even implied rape. But the books and show are supposed to portray a shitty world, where shitty things happen for shitty reasons. Rape happens in our shitty world, and the fake one. What will be the consequences be for the characters in the episodes to come? Why not wait a few more episodes to find out?
There is this troubling idea here and elsewhere that since the show is so full of rape, torture and violence people should be "ok" with it and people should not feel upset about the rape of a main character. It doesn't speak very well about the show, or some of its viewers for that matter.
I almost stopped watching 300 after Leonidas' wife was raped by that prick from the wire (idk his name but I hate him just from that movie lol)
Rape is very ugly, more sinister than murder tbh. It should never be depicted in movies or television. Who knows how many rapists or people with those types of fantasies get off with those kinds of scenes. Even when a rape happens off screen, it sickens me. I'm a man, but I have two sisters, a mother and a daughter whom I love and care for very much.
I don't watch/never thought about watching GOT and now I definitely won't. Rape is too extreme.. Ever since the movie "KIDS" (which a bunch of my friends were in) it's proven to me it will make me uncomfortable (Casper, rip, banged the sleeping girl)
Seriously, I can't even read about a rape in a storybook. All rapists deserve life imprisonment or death penalties if they're serial IMO
Hey look, it took me 30 seconds to find two people in this thread who want all such scenes gone, and a third that implies stuff is wrong with the viewers if they watch shows like GoT.
Gonna go back to my belief that there is a bigger discussion being had by proxy here that no one wants to really get into.
EDIT: Good article from the Washington Post talking about GoT
I just don't get an outrage such as this....its a fictional show. Let me rephrase: a fictional dark fantasy show where someone e is killed, tortured and fucked over every few seconds.
I disagree.
Then why add filler stuff like the romance scenes between Grey Worm and Misandei? Why waste time to kill off Barristan? Skip those and add 2 scenes with Manderly, thats all he needs. It also wouldn't have taken any more time than now if
Griff and his companions would have accompanied Tyrion
instead of Varys during his travel up to his kidnapping. The time would have been exactly the same but they chose to use Varys because he is well known already, no issue of time here.
They also already introduced the sand snakes but why leave out the most important one, Arianne? She could have just been there until she gets important. Barely any time needed.
Additionally, nobody forced them to put so much time into Winterfell. All the additional time Sansa gets here could have gone in to the actually important subplot around Manderly or
get back to Beric Dondarrion and company for whom they even added Gendry, tease Lady Stoneheart etc. They could've even combined this with Brienne's plotline (as in the books) to save time.
Theon's story from the books they're currently doing in the show has already been shown in the previous seasons for a huge part of it, which was very well done. Only thing missing in Winterfell was his involvement/witnessing the Manderly and Jeyne Poole stuff.
I know the books are the books and the show is the show etc. As I said, I have no problems with changes if they're well done, there have been several good ones already. I'm also not some elitist trying to talk the show down. Ideally I enjoy both very much and I did so most of the time up until now. If I wouldn't have read the books I may not be able to exactly point out what feels wrong with the current season but I would have felt that some decisions they made are weird. Reading the books though helped to see what the show does better (especially pacing) but also what it could have done better, since it was done better before, even though in a very different medium.
Still, I'll keep watching the show because it is still a great one and I'm thankful to see so many great characters I know from the books on TV. I just feel like D&D have done better before.
So, then where are all the violent male rape scenes then? Last I checked, that was also a harsh reality of war. (Not that male rape is something I actually want to see on the show).
Game of Thrones is a show about war, and as such death has been used as a plot tool in all sorts of ways, bringing all sorts of consequences and routes of salvation to the characters. Rape so far on the show has really only been used one way, so this isn't a good comparison at all.
Used in what way? I see some people saying rape depiction in GoT is bad because it will never be dealt with or mentioned again, while others are complaining that it is used as a trope for the female character to overcome, whereas others are complaining that is used as a trope to advance a male character.
The problem isn't that its dark, but pointless. The season is slow, the act isn't surprising and they could have cut to the chase (the characters' reaction to the rape), but instead they had a drawn out undressing scene.
Compared to previous seasons, this one has very little progression punctuated by a shocking event that is shocking for the sake of shocking. Shocking cliffhangers at that.
Jon disobeys Stannis and fires an arrow into Mance. Tyrion is kidnapped by Jorah. Barristan dies. Now Sansa is raped. I'd love to see a cut with dramatic music added to each of the ends of these scenes. Maybe a dun dun DUN!
Used in what way? I see some people saying rape depiction in GoT is bad because it will never be dealt with or mentioned again, while others are complaining that it is used as a trope for the female character to overcome, whereas others are complaining that is used as a trope to advance a male character.
The rapes in the show that were from the source material were used pretty well, the most prominent one being Cersei's years of abuse from Robert. The ones that the show runners newly created for the show didn't seem to have any such long lasting consequences and were just a thing that happened to a character and didn't get brought up again. (I went into this more here.) We don't know yet which way this most recent scene is going to go, but given past history we can make some assumptions.
The thing you're saying about complaints it being example of various tropes is more a complaint about how rape is generally used in fiction, and not how it has been used in Game of Thrones up till now. This most recent one could pretty easily fall into either of these tropes (especially given the focus on Theon in that scene) if they follow up on it at all.
So 3.
Making something less consensual aka not consensual = adding rape.
Applying the rape scenario of a different character from the book to Sansa still makes it a new rape
It was a different character in Sansa's exact position. IE in the show, Sansa is replacing that character, so it makes sense that the same situations should happen to her.
Also it was several million times worse in the books.
So Sansa was put in place of a minor character who literally only exists in the books to show how bad Ramsay is, because the showrunners were too impatient with her character to do anything interesting with it this season. And Sansa's rape is used, once again, to show how much of a fucko Ramsay is and to make us feel sorry for Theon, because at this point we're used to Sansa getting abused by fuckboy psychopaths. It's become one of the show's cliches.
I don't get the outage. Nothing was shown and the scene was quite tame. if you can't handle that then stop watching GOT and go watch Glee. this hasn't been the first dark/violent scene and it won't be the last.
Hey look, it took me 30 seconds to find two people in this thread who want all such scenes gone, and a third that implies stuff is wrong with the viewers if they watch shows like GoT.
Gonna go back to my belief that there is a bigger discussion being had by proxy here that no one wants to really get into.
EDIT: Good article from the Washington Post talking about GoT
Yet weird there is still only one who actually said legislate it which is the only one who is actively calling for censorship. The other two have strong opinions but aren't actively calling for legal action.
So you have 1 person calling for actual censorship and 99.9999% who are trying to have a discussion but yes let's conflate that one person so you can decry censorship and the lack of artistic freedom as if that's what's truly at stake.
Someone else has mentioned a third that wasn't in the books.
I said 3 with you because I misread your statement. I thought you said one and then listed two that weren't but now see you were only talking about 2 in total.
So Sansa was put in place of a minor character who literally only exists in the books to show how bad Ramsay is, because the showrunners were too impatient with her character to do anything interesting with it this season. And Sansa's rape is used, once again, to show how much of a fucko Ramsay is and to make us feel sorry for Theon, because at this point we're used to Sansa getting abused by fuckboy psychopaths. It's become one of the show's cliches.
How can people still be saying they don't understand the outrage? There's 26 pages of debate and people explaining it why they didn't like it. If you read just any few pages of the thread, you should thoroughly understand where both sides are coming from.
Hey look, it took me 30 seconds to find two people in this thread who want all such scenes gone, and a third that implies stuff is wrong with the viewers if they watch shows like GoT.
Gonna go back to my belief that there is a bigger discussion being had by proxy here that no one wants to really get into.
EDIT: Good article from the Washington Post talking about GoT
The science fiction and fantasy site the Mary Sue declared We Will No Longer Be Promoting HBOs Game of Thrones in a piece that seemed to fatally misunderstand the difference between doing journalism about and criticism of a show and acting as a publicity subcontractor for HBO.
There's nothing which builds character like getting raped, I guess.
And yes, if a girl 'willingly' bends over for you because she thinks you might cut her skin off and feed her to your dogs, you're raping her.
I think it was less that and more the fact that she was willing to go through with it until he told Theon to stay in the room and then she was horrified at the thought and no longer wanted to.
I think it's a cheap shot, because what they mean is they are going to cease their posts such as Game Of Thrones Episode Photos which is more unpaid promotion that analysis or critique, or hosting open threads for episode discussion which again is more unpaid promotion than critique, or reporting on interviews with actors from show (or conducting them if they ever did that) which is more unpaid promotion than analysis or critique, etc...
I think it's a cheap shot, because what they mean is they are going to cease their posts such as Game Of Thrones Episode Photos which is more unpaid promotion that analysis or critique, or hosting open threads for episode discussion which again is more unpaid promotion than critique, or reporting on interviews with actors from show (or conducting them if they ever did that) which is more unpaid promotion than analysis or critique, etc...
Hey look, it took me 30 seconds to find two people in this thread who want all such scenes gone, and a third that implies stuff is wrong with the viewers if they watch shows like GoT.
