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[Gipsy Danger]

Too bad time and time again we've been shown that people don't give a shit about how good something is or how low the price is. For anything, not just video games.

It's not about people "not giving a shit about how good something is". Maybe they just don't like it, I think Grim Fandango is one of the best games of all time but some people think it sucks. Those people should be entitled to a refund because they don't like it, regardless of how many GOTY awards it has or 10/10 reviews it has.

 

[Mononoke]

This is technically going to sort itself out over the next few weeks, no? Like, imagine I've sold 100,000 units total, and sell 50 units per week going forward. This is not atypical of a product that's basically done selling. It would be logical that over the first few weeks of refunds, I'd have "negative sales" as my existing install base take advantage of the refunds. So even if all 50 of my new sales keep the game, I'd still see relatively high return rates, right?

Yeah, that is what my original post asked. I was also wondering if in places like the EU where they have had these policies, if refunds were high on average per item sold. Like in total sales, how much of those sales get refunded.

 

[Beelzebufo]

It's not about people "not giving a shit about how good something is". Maybe they just don't like it, I think Grim Fandango is one of the best games of all time but some people think it sucks. Those people should be entitled to a refund because they don't like it, regardless of how many GOTY awards it has or 10/10 reviews it has.

Well then maybe they should have done their fucking research and learned that they didn't like it despite all of the 10/10 reviews. It's just that simple.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I really really want to hope that gamers aren't such entitled brats that a significant number of people would abuse the system list this. I really do. I'm not sure if I do. The sale starting later this week will be telling.

You're an Aspie.

You're one of us.

You should know better.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

This is technically going to sort itself out over the next few weeks, no? Like, imagine I've sold 100,000 units total, and sell 50 units per week going forward. This is not atypical of a product that's basically done selling. It would be logical that over the first few weeks of refunds, I'd have "negative sales" as my existing install base take advantage of the refunds. So even if all 50 of my new sales keep the game, I'd still see relatively high return rates, right?

I think the key thing is that we don't know, and we need to wait for more than a week before coming to conclusions about buyer behaviors. Like Valve said, they can track these refund requests. It shouldn't become a rental system like some people want to believe.

If you had enough refunds to impact your sales negatively, then you probably didn't put out a great product in the first place.

 

[Jacksinthe]

It's 100% tricking haha. If your sales rely on selling your game to people who don't like it, there's some dishonesty going on.

Thats the norm? NOT selling to your targeted audience? That sounds like a solid business plan to you?

If we are going that route - may as well blame Steam sales for people buying garbage they were never interested in.

I'm all for refunds but the notion that a majority of developers are solely marketing to people who will not like their product is absurd.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Thats the norm? NOT selling to your targeted audience? That sounds like a solid business plan to you?

If we are going that route - may as well blame Steam sales for people buying garbage they were never interested in.

I'm all for refunds but the notion that a majority of developers are solely marketing to people who will not like their product is absurd.

If that's not the norm, then what the hell were you talking about when you said refunds are going to doom all niche titles to failure? If you like niche games you're not gonna return your niche games.

What is happening.

 

[arts&crafts]

I would never return a game, but people can if they want. That is how I feel.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well then maybe they should have done their fucking research and learned that they didn't like it despite all of the 10/10 reviews. It's just that simple.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or the other user.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or the other user.

I was agreeing with the guy I quoted haha

 

[Blizzard]

Besides wondering whether Valve is footing the bill for months-old refunds, I also feel like this change, while potentially being positive for consumers, may not be as positive for the quality of games themselves as one would like.

Specifically, imagine that somewhere there is a developer who actually DOES mean well, and wants to make a non-buggy game that their target audience enjoys. Do we know if Valve provides any feedback to the developers, even in regard to which refund box got checked? If you see 10 refunds, do you know it's because 10 people were confused about the game, 10 people had technical problems, or one person somehow refunded 10 copies?

I feel like if developers were given statistics like "You had 20 refunds from 20 people, all claiming they couldn't run the game" that would help you improve your product. Similarly, if you heard "20 people could run your game, but the framerate was too low so they returned it", that would also be useful.

 

[Jacksinthe]

I was responding to the 'Specific crowd' part, not the tricking part.

If you're making a game for a specific audience, then it should come to no surprise when someone outside of that audience dislikes the game. Like, I'm sure Life is Strange will tickle those who like adventure games, but if someone picks it up and it's not their type of game, they're not 'tricked', they probably didn't just expect what they were getting.

That argument that people don't understand is fine. The argument that people are "tricked" into it isn't. Marketing your game to people you know will hate it (ie - tricking people for a sale) is doing nothing more than handing everyone a shovel for your brand. Its asinine to believe this is the case with a majority of developers.

People buy things they don't like - now they get to return them, thats EXCELLENT! But the aforementioned statement isn't indicative of developers any more than "lazy devs" is.

 

[Brokun]

Maybe this will bring back demos for PC.

It has to be frustrating as a studio to see sales start to take off and then a week later have it skew wildly in the opposite direction.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Well then maybe they should have done their fucking research and learned that they didn't like it despite all of the 10/10 reviews. It's just that simple.

Oh, man. How is anyone supposed to know that they don't like a game without playing it? What the hell are they going to really learn about how a game plays from watching it on YouTube?

Again, I would like to point to Exhibit A.

So what about my Driveclub situation? The only reason I don't like the game is because I hate the way the driving feels. Pretty sure I can't feel the game through a Let's Play or review, and as of right now there is no demo for it. But fuck me, right?

Please tell me what research I could have done to avoid this situation.

I was agreeing with the guy I quoted haha

Now I don't know what to believe. It's late and I should go to bed.

Poe's Law

Fuck it, I am ruined.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I was agreeing with the guy I quoted haha

In that case, that's not what I meant, and you know it.

 

[Nordicus]

Oh, man. How is anyone supposed to know that they don't like a game without playing it? What the hell are they going to really learn about how a game plays from watching it on YouTube?

Again, I would like to point to Exhibit A.

Poe's Law

 

[chemicals]

I think this is wrong. Steam as a whole has so many great prices. You normally are not paying retail anyway.

I mean, to each his own. I recently bought a game that doesnt run very well on my graphics card, but I will not return it. I will just look forward to the day when I get to play it.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

It's going to happen no matter what on a small scale, it comes with the territory in consumer marketplaces.

But this line of thinking willfully ignores that PC piracy exists. No one is going to abuse this system that way when they could literally just download the game if they wanted.

I often see people avoid piracy just to take the high road while having no remorse in abusing and exploiting system to practically achieve the same results.

 

[Ravidrath]

Would a limit of one refund per game be OK?

I could see someone, say, loading up on copies near the end of a sale to trade off later, then asking for refunds for the ones they couldn't trade away before the refund period is up.

I also think that if, say, someone buys a game at full price and then asks for a refund and then buys it on sale later, they shouldn't be able to get a refund on that.

I'm fine with the idea of someone possibly not liking a game enough to have paid full price for it, but I don't think they should be able to do that repeatedly.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I think this is wrong. Steam as a whole has so many great prices. You normally are not paying retail anyway.

I mean, to each his own. I recently bought a game that doesnt run very well on my graphics card, but I will not return it. I will just look forward to the day when I get to play it.

That's fantastic! Someone who doesn't feel the same way as you should be able to get their money back, though.

 

[Firelord Chargrilled]

Well duh, now that people can they will.

Stores constantly have people buying Bluray players/movies/games/tvs and returning them the next day. Said stores are still in business too. Steam will adapt.

Retail stores give refunds on used items ?

 

[Kerned]

Would a limit of one refund per game be OK?

I could see someone, say, loading up on copies near the end of a sale to trade off later, then asking for refunds for the ones they couldn't trade away before the refund period is up.

I also think that if, say, someone buys a game at full price and then asks for a refund and then buys it on sale later, they shouldn't be able to get a refund on that.

I'm fine with the idea of someone possibly not liking a game enough to have paid full price for it, but I don't think they should be able to do that repeatedly.

You are describing some seriously edge case scenarios here. How often would that even be an issue?

 

[Paz]

A system where refunds where virtually impossible to get is changed so refunds are incredibly easy to get > Of course % wise refunds are way up, things will stabilize over time.

Steam refunds are necessary and the balance of power has been pushed too far away from the folks buying games digitally for too long, most retail outlets have far more generous return policies and if people wanted to steal your game they could just type its name in to their browser search bar to find a torrent in sub 3 seconds!

The idea that a dev would add DRM because they can no longer lock players in to a purchase seems absurd to me :/ I hope that's just some fear talking and they reconsider, hurting your players to try and spite some unknown faction of abusers is not good.

People should stop focusing on the 2 hour exploitable loop hole for short games as well, Valve have already said they are monitoring usage patterns and initially there seems to be a huge amount of human oversight, plus are the kind of people that would try and exploit that loophole even the same group who would be supporting those niche fringe games? One of Steam's key selling points is that it treats those who use it with respect because treating everyone like they are an asshole / pirate isn't going to help anyone.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Retail stores give refunds on used items ?

Some do. I remember Gamestation in the UK for the longest time would allow you to return any game within a 7 day period, no questions asked. Then GAME bought them, doomed I tells ye.

 

[Jacksinthe]

If that's not the norm, then what the hell were you talking about when you said refunds are going to doom all niche titles to failure? If you like niche games you're not gonna return your niche games.

What is happening.

Wrong guy or you just read 2 words of my initial post and filled in the rest yourself.

I can't see it hurting anyone but maybe super short games that have zero replayability but thats fairly expected if that is the exact material. Abuse will be curbed, as well.

 

[Sendou]

I also think that if, say, someone buys a game at full price and then asks for a refund and then buys it on sale later, they shouldn't be able to get a refund on that.

On the other hand people might feel more comfortable at buying games at full price without having to fear that the same game is -75% off tomorrow.

 

[Prototype]

Those tweets ate nice and all, but it's not really taking the reality of the situation into account. Without refunds, would those people have even tried the game?

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I often see people avoid piracy just to take the high road while having no remorse in abusing and exploiting system to practically achieve the same results.

The results aren't really the same since piracy would allow someone to spend as much time as they want with a game, when they want. With this policy, you only have two weeks to make what you spent back and you have to complete or otherwise get your fill of whatever you're playing within two hours. Unless you want to speedrun every PC game from here on it's not very appealing for abuse.

 

[Hubb]

Retail stores give refunds on used items ?

Bestbuy's return policy on media is "Opened computer software, movies, music or video games can only be exchanged for an identical item. " I am sure other companies have similar policies.

I am for refunds. Can they be abused? Sure, will they? Sure. Will the benefit outweigh the abusers? I think so.

 

[GravityMan]

I think many people are just trying it to see if it works.

This. It's a new and highly-demanded feature for Steam.

Some devs and the gaming press shouldn't overreact to this news. They're just contributing unnecessary FUD. It's not going to stay at 30-70% forever. Things will eventually stabilize, and in the long run this will either have zero or a net positive impact for MOST devs.

Give it six months or so, then take a look at the data. That will be more telling as to the true impact of Steam refunds.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Bestbuy's return policy on media is "Opened computer software, movies, music or video games can only be exchanged for an identical item. " I am sure other companies have similar policies.

I am for refunds. Can they be abused? Sure, will they? Sure. Will the benefit outweigh the abusers? I think so.

This is exactly what it comes down to. It's piracy and DRM all over again. Not having the system would only punish genuine users who refund games only when they don't like the product. Whereas abusers would just pirate the game anyway, so it means nothing to them.

 

[Paz]

Would a limit of one refund per game be OK?

I could see someone, say, loading up on copies near the end of a sale to trade off later, then asking for refunds for the ones they couldn't trade away before the refund period is up.

I also think that if, say, someone buys a game at full price and then asks for a refund and then buys it on sale later, they shouldn't be able to get a refund on that.

I'm fine with the idea of someone possibly not liking a game enough to have paid full price for it, but I don't think they should be able to do that repeatedly.

That seems like a logical restriction, though it's also probably a niche abuse case and mass purchases + mass refunds on a regular basis would fall under more general abuse and potentially lose that user their entire refund option. Valve have said monitoring for abuse is a priority, and they will have all the data they need really.

 

[Chezzymann]

What if an indie Dev makes a short experimental game that can be beaten in less than two hours and everyone who buys it just refunds it?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Wrong guy or you just read 2 words of my initial post and filled in the rest yourself.

I can't see it hurting anyone but maybe super short games that have zero replayability but thats fairly expected if that is the exact material. Abuse will be curbed, as well.

This has just been a big misunderstanding then

 

[Sober]

What if an indie Dev makes a short experimental game that can be beaten in less than two hours and everyone who buys it just refunds it?

Yes, because even the intended audience for the game will not buy the game in good faith and refund it. Gamers, am I right?

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

The results aren't really the same since piracy would allow someone to spend as much time as they want with a game, when they want. With this policy, you only have two weeks to make what you spent back and you have to complete or otherwise get your fill of whatever you're playing within two hours. Unless you want to speedrun every PC game from here on it's not very appealing for abuse.

Oh yes, I get that. I'm not really arguing against refunds and just pointing out that some people would use any methods and justification possible just to keep their hands "clean". Perhaps that's a tangent, though. Sorry.

 

[AwShucks]

If people don't like a product they should be able to get their money back.

That's not really how things work. Could you imagine?

"I don't really like this car after all. I'd like a refund."
"You know, I thought we'd like this movie, but we ended up not liking it. We'd like our money back."

And in cases where you don't like something and can get a refund, it's usually food and it's usually free coupons towards a product from the same company. And you don't generally go back to the store, you call the brand. Could you imagine going back to the grocery store and being like "I just didn't like those Oreo cookies. I want my money back."

Really it works in tons of ways. I'm not saying Steam shouldn't offer refunds, but I think what they made is probably too lax. There needs to be a timeframe like most everything else in the range of 30-90 days. And I think two hours might be too much. Some games are only a few hours long and to be able to play almost all of it and get your money back? Seems wrong to me. It probably can't happen reasonably, but making it based on the length of a game would be good.

 

[CambriaRising]

That's not really how things work. Could you imagine?

"I don't really like this car after all. I'd like a refund."
"You know, I thought we'd like this movie, but we ended up not liking it. We'd like our money back."

In both these cases you can get refunds. I have done it myself in the first case. So yes, it does work that way.

 

[Ravidrath]

You are describing some seriously edge case scenarios here. How often would that even be an issue?

Of course.

But the way exploits usually go is that someone finds such an edge case and then everyone starts mimicking it, leading to abuse.

That seems like a logical restriction, though it's also probably a niche abuse case and mass purchases + mass refunds on a regular basis would fall under more general abuse and potentially lose that user their entire refund option. Valve have said monitoring for abuse is a priority, and they will have all the data they need really.

Yeah, I expect that these rules will evolve over time as they monitor how the community is using them.


Also, in my experience with selling games on Steam, there are frequently times that people ask us for support with Steam problems. Most are solved by rebooting the client, but every once in a while there's a hiccup on their end.

I know Valve doesn't want to have support, but I do worry that devs are likely going to lose some sales because of Steam problems that are in no way the dev's fault. It probably won't be many.

 

[Corpekata]

A lot of the scenarios people are thinking up are just goofy.

Is there really a large cross section of people that spend money on niche art games but are also deal hungry enough they're going to refund their purchases? Even if there was a large audience for this sort of action, they would probably all be better off pirating the game in that case.

Even sillier are the "Guess games will just go F2P or pad out their intros" ideas.

 

[Nubian Star]

Doesn't Europe already have a refund policy in place for digital goods? I thought they did.

 

[Firelord Chargrilled]

Some do. I remember Gamestation in the UK for the longest time would allow you to return any game within a 7 day period, no questions asked. Then GAME bought them, doomed I tells ye.

It's never worked like that in the US ever

Bestbuy's return policy on media is "Opened computer software, movies, music or video games can only be exchanged for an identical item. " I am sure other companies have similar policies.

I am for refunds. Can they be abused? Sure, will they? Sure. Will the benefit outweigh the abusers? I think so.

That's not a refund now is it ?

 

[adamantypants]

Yeah I'm gonna say this is a mix of both the new refund policy and people treating it like demos. I wonder how many of those people bought it on a whim and just decided they didn't want it. I know I make hasty purchases like that pretty frequently.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Doesn't Europe already have a refund policy in place for digital goods? I thought they did.

Yup, i believe that the EU refund process is the same.

 

[Hubb]

That's not a refund now is it ?

Nope. Didn't mean to say it was, just that I am pro/for refunds.

I posted that because not all stores/business are happy to give you a refund when it comes to open media.

In both these cases you can get refunds. I have done it myself in the first case. So yes, it does work that way.

Very few car dealerships offer a XYZ day return policy. Specially with new cars.

 

[wildfire]

More people are claiming refunds than when you weren't allowed to?

No fucking shit Kotaku.

No shit that 30% refunds is considered normal. Considering some of the jobs I've had 30% refunds is already past the point of being bad and as high as 70% is laughable.

No shit indeed HIME.

 

[Game Guru]

You guys do know that GameStop has a one-week refund policy on used games and if someone abuses it, they get banned from using the refund policy. I've actually used the policy in the past. I assume the same will happen to Steam users who abuse the refund policy.

 

[Sober]

If people honestly believe this is going to lead to rampant abuse then I guess you don't have much faith in gamers in general.

That being said I don't know if anyone should.

 

[ShadyJ]

This pleases me, power to the consumer

 

[Heigic]

They could always pull the game and sell it somewhere else. Zero cares given for some devs getting screwed instead of customers being screwed.