Cave Johnson
Member
But it definitely limits their potential of creating newer or more ambitious titles in the future.
Kotaku: A Lot Of People Are Getting Refunds On Steam
- Thread starter Hip Hop
- Start date
But it definitely limits their potential of creating newer or more ambitious titles in the future.
The12thGripper
Member
I figured I'd try and get a refund for a game I didn't like and they actually gave it to me. I bought it 6 months ago too, I'm pretty happy. Hope to see some good stuff in the Summer Sale.
I'd be interested in knowing if there has also been a surge in sales. I mean, wouldn't more people be buying games if they knew they could return them?
Too soon to tell how this might all come out in the end, but on the whole, I'm more than happy to see overall sales take a (slight) hit for the sake of a huge concession to digital consumer rights.
Too soon to tell how this might all come out in the end, but on the whole, I'm more than happy to see overall sales take a (slight) hit for the sake of a huge concession to digital consumer rights.
Americanmushroom
Banned
Easy fix: the dev can choose how long a person can play the game before asking refund. With a minimum of 20 min. This would be shown before purchase. A developer with confidence would put 2 hours as a way to show that the game is THAT good you'll want to play for more
To play devil's advocate, why risk your whole computer downloading a torrent that may or may not contain a virus or weird DRM (looking at Operation Flashpoint and Mass Effect), when you could download a legitimate copy from Steam? And getting around the two hour limit would be trivial because I don't believe that Steam tracks offline hours. I imagine it would be fairly easy to get around pattern statistics as well. Just create a new account when you want to play and refund a game, play it for two weeks offline, refund it, then gift your main account a game with that refund money. Or will Valve track these cases as well? Will they flag refund money? Can they track if an account gets a suspicious number of gifted items from accounts that have gotten refunds?
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
There's people making "Hack Steam Wallet" and "Unlock all the games on Steam" YouTube videos, people are using hacked programs to play CSGO, and they're trying to create Steam cards to add money to their account with generators. I think I can assume anything.
There's a life of piracy floating around the Internet. I can only assume someone will try it out. It may not be bright as day, but I assume it can and will happen.
Do people still get calls claiming they have millions and millions of dollars locked away in someone's account or they have a Microsoft PC advisor asking them for money to get rid of their virus. There are generations to be born and the true idiot may not be gaming at the moment.
If you don't like a product, regret purchasing it or it's not what you thought it was, you should be able to get a refund for it. Some of these devs are just in shock that maybe their games aren't as popular as they thought they were?
Anyways, the refund system is flawed, been trying to request a refund for new Vegas the last two days and all I get is an endless loop back to technical issues.
Anyways, the refund system is flawed, been trying to request a refund for new Vegas the last two days and all I get is an endless loop back to technical issues.
Stuggernaut
Grandma's Chippy
I am on the fence over this whole thing.
I mean I buy a lot of games on Steam that I do not end up playing much because they are just not for me. But, I usually buy games I am unsure of when they are on sale. So if I am out $5-$10 or so, I am not crying over it.
Other than that, I am pretty picky about what I buy anyway.
If you don't LIKE a game, I don't think that is a qualification for a refund. If the game is not as advertised, is overly buggy, or just plain does not work. Fine.
I never read a game where it said "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back"
Just my opinion of course, everyone else can do what they want ;P
I mean I buy a lot of games on Steam that I do not end up playing much because they are just not for me. But, I usually buy games I am unsure of when they are on sale. So if I am out $5-$10 or so, I am not crying over it.
Other than that, I am pretty picky about what I buy anyway.
If you don't LIKE a game, I don't think that is a qualification for a refund. If the game is not as advertised, is overly buggy, or just plain does not work. Fine.
I never read a game where it said "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back"
Just my opinion of course, everyone else can do what they want ;P
Pretty much, let the backlog begin.
You really think there's a crossover between legitimate customers who exist now and people who would go to the lengths you just described in order to play a game for free? I just can't see that being true, and I refuse to think of the player base on Steam as being made up of those people.
Of course pirates and scammers and assholes exist, my point is they have easier avenues to exploit than Steam Refunds so it's not really a problem that there are minor exploits in a system that is largely beneficial.
Edit - For the record we've seen a fairly low % of refunds since the system went live and almost entirely on the day it went live rather than continuous.
demosthenes
Member
My thoughts on this exactly. This will probably be abused by people and Valve will have to nerf it a little.
Stuggernaut
Grandma's Chippy
Since your post is nearly the opposite of mine, I pick you to quote! heh
I can see that point of view for certain other retail items, but I can't be on board when it comes to software.
User reviews, videos, demos, hell, GAF alone, all enough info to really know what you are buying. So unless people are buying games on hype/impulse...
As I said in my post, I don't think (again,just IMO) personal taste should be a reason to get a refund on software.
I will not judge any who disagree of course
I think that if you went to a movie theater with a bunch of bootleg Blurays of a movie out in theaters, you would find people willing to buy them. People who do not use torrents to download movies at home.
EDIT: I think it's a bit naive to believe that the entire Steam userbase is made up of upstanding consumers not willing to abuse a system for their benefit, no matter how convoluted that abuse may be.
A comparison so far removed from reality as to be largely irrelevant though, surely?
That means they'd be able to refund a ton of games because of the low playtime once post-sale regret hits!
Essentially this is gonna seriously "thin out' so to speak the Steam craze that was occurring. Expected customers and profit is going to have to be redefined under the new refund system, as prior, customers who bought in at preorder levels or impulse sales are now not guaranteed money. On one hand you can say this will make for better games, on the other it means less experimentation, and more 'safe' bets.
Uh, what? Anecdote, but my friend's copy of The Lion King on VHS was a bootleg version bought when he went to see The Lion King in theaters. Granted, I don't know that it's a common occurrence, but the point is that given the right circumstances, I think that there are "legitimate" consumers who would have little to no problem gaming a system for their own benefit. Just because someone doesn't want to torrent a game, doesn't mean that they don't want to use Steam's refund system for their own benefit.
You're comparing someone finding bootleg blu rays for sale at a movie theater to someone creating fake steam accounts, purchasing games, playing in offline mode, using a hack to stop steam tracking data (Which they are experimenting with), and asking for a refund.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
User Name Here
Member
Glad to see it implemented.
Theres been a bunch of times where I've bought a game due to high reviews on gaf, gaming sites, and reputation. Dark Souls is a dungeon crawler that's highly rated, gaf praised it, I played it for 45 minutes and hated it. That's money I'll never see again.Since your post is nearly the opposite of mine, I pick you to quote! heh
I can see that point of view for certain other retail items, but I can't be on board when it comes to software.
User reviews, videos, demos, hell, GAF alone, all enough info to really know what you are buying. So unless people are buying games on hype/impulse...
As I said in my post, I don't think (again,just IMO) personal taste should be a reason to get a refund on software.
I will not judge any who disagree of course
Unless every developer releases a demo of all games they release, it's impossible to know if you'll like a game or not until you played it. That's why the two hour window is fair to me.
What hack did I mention? And I'm merely offering pretty simple ways that people can abuse the system. Is it worth abusing Steam over simply downloading a torrent? Probably not in most cases. But will it potentially be abused by people who do not use torrents? My position is that yes, Steam's refunds will probably be abused by people who do not use torrents. I think it would be naive to believe otherwise. But I also don't know that it will hurt developer's bottom lines. Just like I don't believe that piracy hurts developer's bottom lines. It will just be more people playing a game for free, not an active loss in sales.
EDIT: And you are focused too much on the bootleg. My point with that was that offering different avenues to play a game for free will mean that more people will play a game for free. Buying bootleg blurays and downloading torrents are not mutually inclusive. Torrenting games and gaming the Steam refund system are not mutually inclusive. There will be people who do one, or the other, or both.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I think that using one week of data to determine anything is ultimately pretty silly.
Plus, I think the amount of people abusing is going to be unbelievably low relative to the vast userbase. Add on top of that the fact that the refund ability being in place means people might be more willing to take a chance on things than they would have otherwise.
To say nothing of the fact that a lot of people won't take advantage of it even if they were eligible.
And even if that weren't all true, I'd rather have the rights for users than leave things as they were. I haven't used it, probably won't use it but I'm glad it's there if I need and/or want it.
Plus, I think the amount of people abusing is going to be unbelievably low relative to the vast userbase. Add on top of that the fact that the refund ability being in place means people might be more willing to take a chance on things than they would have otherwise.
To say nothing of the fact that a lot of people won't take advantage of it even if they were eligible.
And even if that weren't all true, I'd rather have the rights for users than leave things as they were. I haven't used it, probably won't use it but I'm glad it's there if I need and/or want it.
As someone who enjoys both the AAA bombastic games down to the niche narrative titles that try to do something new, I don't exactly get this line of thought.
Indies that want to make something new or familiar or profound or transgressive or avant garde are going to keep doing so. They know the exact audience they're aiming for. Those people aren't suddenly gonna go "fuck you got my 2 hours" all of a sudden. That is generally reserved for a subset of people who, let's be honest, are already pretty apprehensive or openly hostile to these kind of games and wouldn't pay much less play them anyway.
Like, if you asked me if I enjoyed something like Dinner Date, which I finished in 20 minutes... maybe not? But I definitely appreciated what it was trying to do. Of course not everyone shares my sensibilities but I'm of a mind people who want to see games in that similar vein are fine with "keeping" their copy (so to speak).
Don't really know why people are blowing this out of proportion.
Quite possibly the greatest move ever done by Valve to limit shovelware, I'm OK with this.
LurkerPrime
Member
This deserves to be on every page.
Beelzebufo
Banned
What? It totally is haha. If the returns make an impact in sales, then the game was bad for a lot of people. It's totally the dev's fault.
I think if the refunds exist to comply to EU law, well, it's a law. It's not like Valve has choice in that matter.
As for people abusing the system, they are just pirates with different method. In the end they don't want to pay for their entertainment. Full stop.
Just like publishers shouldn't be fixated on torrent download counts, those who abuse doesn't have intention to pay in the first place. Just focus on the paying customers. Hopefully, there's a abuse detection method, but I'm not so sure about the accuracy. It's difficult to determine a jerkass with a legit picky customer even in real life.
As for people abusing the system, they are just pirates with different method. In the end they don't want to pay for their entertainment. Full stop.
Just like publishers shouldn't be fixated on torrent download counts, those who abuse doesn't have intention to pay in the first place. Just focus on the paying customers. Hopefully, there's a abuse detection method, but I'm not so sure about the accuracy. It's difficult to determine a jerkass with a legit picky customer even in real life.
TheSadRanger
Banned
Or more devs will just make F2P or mobile games
There's no such thing as "refunds" for microtransactions
I mentioned the hack because Steam will be tracking offline usage, so it would be a necessary part of the action. And while you are right there might be some people who would abuse refunds but wouldn't abuse torrents I imagine that group is so small as to be statistically irrelevant, and definitely smaller than the group of people who would now be more confident in making purchases with the knowledge that they can refund that purchase should they wish to.
One who's a part of the overwhelming majority of gamers who play the games they buy.
EatinOlives
Member
I find it odd that developers complaining about the refunds aren't, in turn, wondering why so many refunds are being given. It could just be that a lot of their customers aren't liking their game, but rather than wonder that they're fuming that they can't trap people with a game they don't like?
They are wondering this. Or at least, one is, in the very article linked from the OP:
That's also something I wondered and asked about, along with whether Valve is paying the bill for refunds that are months old, but I haven't seen answers yet to either.
I want to make and sell a game on Steam some day, and I'd like it to be high-quality. It would be great if Valve could at least provide some sort of information so I would know if refunds are because of the game not running at ALL, or because of performance problems, or purely because of people not liking it even though there weren't technical problems, etc.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Doesn't mean it was a shitty game.
I like tons of games others don't. I'd ask for a refund on Arkham City if I could.
Stiler
Member
What they need to do is tie refunds not simply to "Two hours" but also to a % of a game.
So say, if someone buys a short game , plays the entire thing (if it's under two hours long) then they shouldn't be able to request a refund.
It's like going to a cafe, ordering a steak. It's cold/not cooked how you wanted, and instead of telling the waiter asap and having it sent back you instead you eat 90% of the steak and THEN tell them and expect to either get a refund or have another steak sent out, not going to happen.
It's good that Steam is offering refunds, but they need to make it fair for both short/small games as it is for long games.
So say, if someone buys a short game , plays the entire thing (if it's under two hours long) then they shouldn't be able to request a refund.
It's like going to a cafe, ordering a steak. It's cold/not cooked how you wanted, and instead of telling the waiter asap and having it sent back you instead you eat 90% of the steak and THEN tell them and expect to either get a refund or have another steak sent out, not going to happen.
It's good that Steam is offering refunds, but they need to make it fair for both short/small games as it is for long games.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
It would be great if I could get a refund for a game I bought a long time ago.
Fucking The Stomping Lands... bought it, Steam pulled the game and now that is what I am stuck with.
Fucking The Stomping Lands... bought it, Steam pulled the game and now that is what I am stuck with.
BudokaiMR2
Member
So I bought Shrek 2 way back in the day. And it sucked. Can I get a refund?
I am all for consumer protection but I feel like this is going to do more harm than good in the end.
I just feel like the "I don't like it" reason should not be enough for a refund. I know that won't be a popular opinion....
Yeah even if some of the reasons for a refund are complete bunk (cause you could just outright lie, let's be honest) at least some of it could be useful feedback for devs/pubs selling their game on Steam.
People who purposely buy "short" games only to refund them after finishing them probably weren't going to purchase the game in good faith anyway, so it might as well have been pirated anyway.
skLaFarebear
Member
I'm all for consumer protection, and having a "refund no questions asked" system is certainly better than a "no refunds" system.
With that being said, I think there's a better way to implement this. I don't like the 2 hour rule and I think 2 hours to one game is a completely different experience to 2 hours in another. For some games, 2 hours isn't enough to determine whether you like it or not, while for others 2 hours is more than enough to have your fill (or in some cases even beat it) and just refund the game knowing you're not gonna play it again, even though you might have enjoyed the content. The length system definitely needs adjusting.
But I do feel much better about buying steam games now because my experience with Steam and getting games to run has been beyond annoying and knowing that I can just refund a game not working on my laptop instead of having to search online for possible fixes makes me more comfortable to buying games.
With that being said, I think there's a better way to implement this. I don't like the 2 hour rule and I think 2 hours to one game is a completely different experience to 2 hours in another. For some games, 2 hours isn't enough to determine whether you like it or not, while for others 2 hours is more than enough to have your fill (or in some cases even beat it) and just refund the game knowing you're not gonna play it again, even though you might have enjoyed the content. The length system definitely needs adjusting.
But I do feel much better about buying steam games now because my experience with Steam and getting games to run has been beyond annoying and knowing that I can just refund a game not working on my laptop instead of having to search online for possible fixes makes me more comfortable to buying games.
EatinOlives
Member
Well OK, that's a very fair point. I had no idea that Steam did not provide the game dev with a reason why the game was returned. That's some important feedback.
autoduelist
Member
I think there are some serious issues here.
I think a lot of the issue here is that we often buy games hoping they're something they're not. It might look like this perfect strategy game, or this perfect platformer, or whatever it might be... then we boot it up and we get to deal with the 'intro'/'tutorial' area that may or may not represent the game well [for example, there could be 100 cool/awesome powers, but they unlock at about 1 per hour... so you would never see them in the first bit and think the game sucked]. And ultimately, every game is a game and has its limitations. Is a frame glitch in the early going worth a return? Is an issue that would take 2 minutes of fiddling to fix something we should cancel a sale over?
But ultimately, we buy games we want to try, and we're conditioned to accept that we might not like it as a risk of our purchase. Refunds change that. And in a significant way, to the point that I can see people returning things because it's not quite what they thought it would be, or the intro section was too slow, or whatever for games that, w/o refunds, they would have kept at and loved.
Who knows.
I think a lot of the issue here is that we often buy games hoping they're something they're not. It might look like this perfect strategy game, or this perfect platformer, or whatever it might be... then we boot it up and we get to deal with the 'intro'/'tutorial' area that may or may not represent the game well [for example, there could be 100 cool/awesome powers, but they unlock at about 1 per hour... so you would never see them in the first bit and think the game sucked]. And ultimately, every game is a game and has its limitations. Is a frame glitch in the early going worth a return? Is an issue that would take 2 minutes of fiddling to fix something we should cancel a sale over?
But ultimately, we buy games we want to try, and we're conditioned to accept that we might not like it as a risk of our purchase. Refunds change that. And in a significant way, to the point that I can see people returning things because it's not quite what they thought it would be, or the intro section was too slow, or whatever for games that, w/o refunds, they would have kept at and loved.
Who knows.
unknownstranger
Member
Making this a global rule is stupid, especially since apparently developers have 0 input on it. I'm ok with refunds being a simple process but only if the developer agrees with it.
What? That's not how a store works. It's not like Valve are forcing people to sell through Steam, and developers have zero control over most other store related functionality . The only thing developers control is price.
kerotan_eater
Banned
Exactly how is that going to work? Some games have refunds and some don't? I'm open to developers having the call theoretically but really Valve are the ones who should make the call. So long as their maths is right and trust me they have plenty of numbers and plenty of numbers people working there to find out if this refund policy maximizes revenue and/or long term customer satisfaction.
Soon as I heard about this my first worry was the impact on developers; and what impact that might have on the availability of a game. I have no interest in returning games myself, and I think people are unrealistic about software development particularly for PC games. For some games it won't be "Well spend more time and money testing" it will be "we can't budget for this."
There is not much "input" a developer could provide once people who have returned too many unliked games start claiming technical issues as the reason. Nobody is testing every single combination of hardware, drivers, os / service packs, DirectX, etc. to be able to refute performance or stability issues.
"gotta punish those devs for making non-games"