Probably why Shenmue 3 has not been funded for 14 years.
Sony is officially helping with funding and development with Shenmue 3
- Thread starter kamakazi5
- Start date
Probably why Shenmue 3 has not been funded for 14 years.
They aren't even doing that. If they were there would probably be a physical copy on PS4. Instead you can only get physical on PC and PS4 is digital distro, where Sony lets indies self-publish.
Sony really is basically just the biggest Kickstarter backer ever for this, which makes sense as they do not own the IP, are not pursuing the IP, and after Shenmue 3 likely won't want anything to do with the IP (as the story will be finished). Sony isn't making the game. They're likely giving Suzuki comparable help as what they're giving Hello Games with No Man's Sky at the most. That is considerable, but ultimately it is Suzuki's game, not Sony's, and Suzuki is responsible for finishing it as well as any future platforms it might arrive on.
I'm also sure that Sony has all sorts of metrics for if a game sells X units to backers, it ends up selling Y*X amount at retail and digitally. They should have a decent idea of how well the game will perform overall before production begins.
And the existence of Shenmue 3 goes against all of that market research, so would you rather have Shenmue 3 or for corporations to adhere strictly to those rules?
So what is your problem with them doing it this way?
Yes surveys are nice, but no one is forced to participate in this. Also surveys don't mean a damn thing, when people are often vocal and then don't show up and pay for the product. This happens all the time.
Also, times are changing. Methods are changing. KS could ban these kind of things if they want to, and they choose not to. They are fine with it. If KS doesn't view their platform as the holy indie hub for getting backing like others do, that is on them, and not companies like Sony or the creator of this game.
I also don't think Sony is ONLY doing this to see interest in the game. They are taking a risk just like everyone, and trying to support this dev to get this made. This is a KS project where everyone takes the same risks that they always do with KS projects. Only this time, they have a safety net for the project. It's not guaranteed, but it's still a safety net that they don't get with all the other projects they back.
I fail to see what the problem is.
KickStarter phenomenon is and will cause a shift in how low capital ventures come to fruition. Without going through the motions, this type of funding preys on individuals who don't consider their investments as investments. And for the most part, individuals who pledge aren't pledging enough to make worthwhile gains anyway if they were to use that money towards actual investments. It's an interesting dynamic and one that fully benefits the campaigners, as they are not giving up a part of their company.
Guess what I'm saying is this shit is interesting and curious to how it will continue and adapt.
Guess what I'm saying is this shit is interesting and curious to how it will continue and adapt.
I don't think he expected anyone to use that rebuttal. Which is mind blowing since it's the one that makes absolute sense.
Infernostew
Member
That people will actually put their money where their mouth is instead of clicking a poll box that say they'll buy a product and not buy it.
No you got it right.
joecanada
Member
And real market research costs a ton. Obviously it wasn't in the cards for shenmue after so long on the shelf... KS was the catalyst in this case...
People can keep saying sony should do market research but guess what they decided it wasn't worth it so that's it. They aren't obliged to just pay for market research on a game they don't even own nor does it make sense
Surveys...truly the Facebook Event invites of gauging who is actually going to come to your party/buy your product.
Infernostew
Member
Hah. That actually made me laugh. Well said.
Damn. People actually say this shit? What are they, middle school kids?
Hiring research firm isn't cheap.
Agreed!.Surveys don't actually provide tangible data that shows people will pay money. Surveys tells us how many people say they will buy something. People saying and doing are different things. KS is a new way to do this and it gives tangible proof people are not only interested, but are willing to actually pay (and in some cases, much more than the retail cost of a game).
Even if people want to take issue with Sony doing this to survey interest, why are people taking issue with this project doing the KS format, and Sony being a safety net that we normally don't get with KS projects?
That's because it's less an investment and more a patronage. We are all Medicis through Kickstarter.
Kind of.
Littlefang
Member
Sorry I meant the developer. I mean if a kickstarted indie game falls through during development they generally don't have the money to pay back those that backed the game. But if Shenmue fell through, Sony would be able to afford to pay back those who backed the game but they would have no obligation to.
Sony is taking a risk, but they also stand to make money where as those that have backed the kickstarter don't. I know that this happens with other kickstarters, but Sony has the capacity to fund the entire project and is currently funding (an assumed) majority of it, so ultimately, the kickstarter funds won't have a large impact on the development of the game. So why did they force Shenmue to go on kickstarter at all? Sony is making the consumers take a risk when they didn't need to do that at all. And yes I know that nobody is "forcing" anyone to back the kickstarter. But they are forcing Shenmue fans to back a kickstarter if they want this game to be made in the first place.
Infernostew
Member
the point... you missed it.
HORRORSHØW
Member
why do you keep assuming this is sony's initiative?
PeregrinSe7en
Member
oh shit!
this is the funniest thing out of all the funny things posted in this thread.
this has been one entertainingly salt driven thread!
Galactic Barret
Member
No, I meant if it fails to get funded. You only spend that money if what you back fails to reach certain milestones, correct? That assured that this would get financial backing by Sony.
Which is why having Sony publish/fund this, which was PC/PS4 anyway, is the security aspect. We love Yu, but he couldn't have made that game on $2M, and that money would assuredly have been lost anyway.
gundamkyoukai
Member
What i find funny is to Sony Shenmue 3 is like a indie game if they using the pub fund.
Just goes to show you how dead this IP was .
Just happy it's getting done in some way or the other.
Just goes to show you how dead this IP was .
Just happy it's getting done in some way or the other.
Even funnier is of all companies, SONY is backing this.
Sorry, I'm on my phone and I mis-read his post. I'll edit it. Or I'll keep it as, it just re-states what he is arguing. Either way is fine. My deepest apologies though. I'm sorry.
Nope. Without the Kickstarter, the game wouldn't have been made at all. Basically what happens is that the Kickstarter funds serve as the seed money and Sony and any other investors will provide the rest of the funds to get the game made.
Hahaha
...Scatter...
Banned
Personally I'm ok with what Sony did here. It's a business. We'll make your game and give you the chance to prove it's viability. No reason Sega, or anyone else couldn't have done the same. They don't owe us to fund it, hell they probably had to convince executives to part with that money.
People should remember that this game, along with FF7 remake are years out though. Don't get to hyped to play it yet.
People should remember that this game, along with FF7 remake are years out though. Don't get to hyped to play it yet.
Vampire On Titus
Member
I love this. We wouldn't have gotten Shenmue 3 without this happening. Now they know how many people still love it and Sony will use their extra muscle to really make it the game we all want.
I don't see how anybody loses here.
I don't see how anybody loses here.
Infernostew
Member
Haha. It's all good. Just said the same thing really.
Ha, no worries man.
What is wrong with Sony making money? Their involvement doesn't just stop with them pledging like we do. Their money goes beyond that point. We pledge, and we get the items promised. They give more money way beyond any we could, and thus have a right to make money. I fail to see the ethical problem in that.
We are all making mass assumptions without knowing what actually went down.
Since Shenmue has never gotten backing again, my assumption is that, he would have made a KS project anyways at some point, if he could not get backing. The way I see it, this is fans taking a risk like they take with any KS project. Everyone knows the format. We know the risk. Except this time, this project has a safety net from Sony. The project is not guaranteed as no KS project is guaranteed. But we have better odds with this project because of that safety net.
You are saying fans are being asked to take the risk, and that makes Sony scummy or immoral. Sony is a company that has to make money. We don't know their exact financial situation, or what kind of money they actually have to throw around in each quarter. We don't know what money they already have tied up in other projects. We don't know the data companies have on Shenmue, and why they don't think it's worth backing (there is a reason the third game has never had backing from any major company all these years). We don't know a lot of things.
We are making so many assumptions. And to act like Sony is this immoral entity. That because they are a company and thus have money, they should 100% back this completely and take all the risk. That consumers should never have to take any risk. I just think that is bullshit. Sony is a player in this free market, the same way we are a player. They have every right to be cautious of the projects they back. The money they invest in.
I'm not going to view Sony as this rich entity that must take all the risk and just back it, because a vocal minority want Shenmue badly. Get real. The past Shenmues flopped. There is probably data we don't have, that is a reason companies don't want to touch this thing. Sony knows that this vocal minority is passionate and wants it badly. So KS provides a format where the project can be started, and the consumer takes on some of the risk, and Sony provides a safety net that most KS never will get.
I fail to see the problem, or how Sony is being ethically immoral here. I see Sony trying to work with a shitty situation, and trying to give a vocal minority something they want badly.
1. Sony has done countless surveys that have had Shenmue 3 at the top of the most wanted pile. Many of those surveys had pro-Shenmue numbers that would imply all or nearly all of the people to EVER PLAY Shenmue 1 and 2 just so happened to take these surveys. You wonder why they're skeptical about the reality if fan interest based on marketing research?
2. Where is there any indication that Sony stands to make a big windfall off of this? They aren't making the game. They aren't publishing the game. Suzuki is self-publishing. This is obvious based on a physical version being available on PC (where it is easy and cheap to self publish physical media) but only digital on PS4 (where Sony offers digital self publishing for indies but not physical). Suzuki has the rights form Sega to make it. Suzuki is running the Kickstarter. Suzuki is publishing the game. He is being further enabled by Sony but this is his game and he's the one who will see the financial rewards should this game outsell Shenmue 1 and 2 by significant numbers.
3. Sony isn't forcing anyone to take any kind of risk. They worked with Suzuki to get it off the ground, but he's the one presenting the Kickstarter. Sony is likely funding something in the seven to eight figure range for a game they will have no rights to and can't finish or quality control if Suzuki decides to quit or just push something out the door. They're taking a bigger individual risk than any of us for likely incredibly small potential returns, if any. Given the digital distro price of $29 for a PS4 kickstarter version the release pricing will likely be in the ~$40 range. Sony might see $5-$10 of that. If they give $10M to Suzuki for this they'll need 1M PS4 sales to recoup investment alone, an astronomical leap over 1 and 2's combined sales.
4. Why do you assume the likely $5M-$10M this will raise on Kickstarter will be a drop in the bucket? Sony is likely providing free/cheap dev kits, but they do that for a lot of indies. They'll also likely provide significant tech support, also something they provide, especially to console exclusive titles. Shenmue 1 and 2 with their larger teams and extended development times cost $47M total. If Shenmue 3 eschews AAA graphics in favor of a very clean aesthetic the art assets will cost far less today than they did 14 years ago when they were state of the art (as tools have improved dramatically). If Sony is simply matching the KS funding we're talking a roughly $15M project, pretty reasonable for what Shenmue 3 is likely to be.
This isn't meant to be a game on-par with Sleeping Dogs. It is going to be a far more linear conclusion to the series. Don't assume this is some $100M mega project.
AstroNut325
Member
So lets say this gets a budget of $15 million USD. The game will need to sell about 550,000 copies to break even. And that doesn't account for the marketing.
I hope there are enough Shenmue fans out there.
I hope there are enough Shenmue fans out there.
You guys are the best. I'm such an idiot/dunce. I'm getting all worked up by this. I'm on my phone ferociously typing out responses (I hate using my phone to type). I should just put down the phone and wait till later. But this stuff fires me up. I just don't agree with where people are coming from, and I just don't understand their view point. I want to understand.I'm open to their view point. I'm not 100% set in my ways. As of now, I just, haven't seen any argument that makes sense to me.
*fistbump*
I just edited my post with ONE word, so now it makes sense. I am again, sorry for messing up here guys. You guys are awesome for understanding.
Littlefang
Member
Yeah you only spend your money if the project gets funded. But I just don't understand why Sony couldn't have just funded the project entirely by themselves because the $2m won't make a dent in that game's budget. For the record, I have the same issues with Bloodstained and I'm worried that this sort of thing is becoming a trend. I'd rather these publishers/developers open the game for preorder before development because that way you can cancel at any time and you get your money back if the project fails. My main issue is that why is Sony forcing Shenmue fans to become investors into the game when the money received from the kickstarter is hardly enough to make a dent in the development costs of the games. It seems really unnecessary to me.
Transparency is important in some cases but i don't get why it matters here. I backed and when i heard that Sony is backing afterward I felt even better not worse. Now i get Shenmue with a bigger budget and more of a guarantee it will actually get released. I'd imagine nearly all if not everyone who backed feels the same as me.
Just wondering did you back it?
$2 million* not making a dent? Get the hell out of here. Say the budget is $40 million, that is still 5% of the entire budget.
*and it isn't even only 2 million anymore
Galactic Barret
Member
Yeah, true.
But with WoM, Let's Plays, Twitch and Twitter, it'll probably sell enough, if/when its good.
It's most certainly not an investment. It is explicitly a donation.
Because maybe the project isn't something most companies want to back? Because in the past it's flopped? Because it's a game that really only appeals to a vocal minority?
Because there are many risk factors? I don't know. Why should Sony take on all the risk for a high risk project, just because they are a company with money. I don't understand this notion that because Sony is a company, they must back projects that are risky to their company....
The reality is, they probably would not have backed this project, the same way no company has wanted to back it. KS provided a format where they were willing to do it. I do not see how this makes them unethical or scummy. You keep getting hung up on Sony having money as a company, and so they should take on all the risk for a game that has flopped in the past, and only have a vocal minority that wants it.
Shemue 2 was ~70m. 2m is 2.8%.
Everyone is making huge assumptions. And of course, Sony is the big corporation. Therefore they should spend money, and take all the risk.
I've never backed anything and the first time i do is for $300. They are definitely doing something right.