Sony is officially helping with funding and development with Shenmue 3
- Thread starter kamakazi5
- Start date
I remember the good old days where corps weren't afraid to take risks and make lots of mid-budget type games.
Ah, the good old days.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's not like you know, Sony is a struggling company with a lot of uncertainty about its future after the last few hard years. Nope they should just be throwing money at Shenmue!
/s
Don't know what the hell you are talking about. What "forcing"? I couldn't throw money at it fast enough. Of my own volition too.
I can see that for sure. Just a tiny bit of knowledge of the corporate world would go a long way though. And again, saying that projects like this "ruin Kickstarter" is just plain wrong.
ummmm.. but that's not an angel investment nor are angel investments the only type of investments.
an actual angel investment is similar to what you are saying... super high risk. if the risk pays off, it usually pays big to the angel investor..
in this case Sony is just investing. To your point, they were choosing to invest (as many investors do), only AFTER the risk was reduced.. in this case through kickstarter (not really a valid a form of investment, as the backers ultimately have no real stake in the project per kickstarter's terms. although obviously most back for rewards).
I would be very curious though (which we may never know) how much Sony is backing. I only say that because you said "after fans throw down big bucks".. which $2.8M is.. but if Sony turns around and backs another say $15M... is Sony still scummy? Even if Sony only backs say $500K... why at that point is their backing any less valid than say the guys who dropped $10K? Or say if you approached Yu Suzuki and offered to back $500K?
I honestly think people are pissy because a) forum posters on the internet like to get pissy, and b) there is salt from XBONE owners who are getting left out of this.. but really... not so much the latter. Mostly just people want to make something out of nothing per usual.
Ultimately Shenmue 3 is getting made. And you are either happy about that or simply don't care. Even those bitching fall into one of those two camps.. which then begs the question, why are they bitching? I mean this news doesn't really piss anyone off? I suppose XBONE only owners might be pissed.. but again.. I have to believe that is a REALLY small market (i.e. long time video game enthusiasts who love shenmue, and at the same time are unable or unwilling to play it on PC or PS4)
Sure.
Even if they weren't struggling and were doing well, it's ridiculous that people think they MUST fully back a high risk project.
Companies haven't wanted to back this. Chances are this wouldn't have been backed without this KS format. I really don't understand how people are saying Sony is being morally bankrupt and unethical. That just because they are a company, they should take all risk and consumers should never take a risk.
Well guess what, this is a project where only a vocal minority really wants it. It's not a project with a high % of being a mainstream success or a high reward return. It's a project made for a minority % of consumers. So these small % are helping take on the risk for a game they want badly. And Sony is giving their risk a safety net.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Absolutely agreed.
CouchMaster
Member
Imagine if this was fully exclusive to PS4 and not coming to PC.
Littlefang
Member
Well I guess maybe that's my issue then? I don't know how far Sony is involved in this project. Sure if Sony invests say 20 million into this project (pulling this number from my ass) and sees none of that money back, then of course that's a pretty awesome thing for Sony to do.
But we don't know the true extent that Sony is involved with this. We don't know the conditions of the investment that is being made here. So I guess the controversy that is being generated is that a bunch of us see it like Sony forcing fans to invest money into something and then profiting off of it. Then a bunch of others are seeing Sony as losing a lot of money in order to make fans of an IP happy. I honestly don't see how Sony being vague about their involvement is helping them out here.
How often do you know how much a publisher invests in a project. Why does that even matter? So only if they make no money are they the good guy? This is the video game business not the video game charity.
Stop using that idiotic word "forcing". Nobody's forcing anything.
Galactic Barret
Member
Thats the whole point.
If fans are passionate enough to get over $2M, understand they can't ever get it back, and it only grows in popularity, that only shows that this is a decent investment on the investor's part. Thats better than any survey, market research or analytical data that they would have to spend additional money on. Fund a game guaranteed to sell, maybe just break even or gains a small profit, but grabs mindshare, developer confidence and kudos from the fanbase. So long as the game and other content comes as promised, this is the least sleaziest way to "moneyhat" a game.
This is no different that if they had done a "pre-order threshold survey" of seeing how many people would actually buy the game. Problem is it's hard to get anyone to buy a pre-order for a game that doesn't even exist in pre-production stages.
Kickstarter is a much more honest approach. People putting forth money to a goal that may or may not happen. Hell, now that it is has corporate support it'll be one of the few kickstarters to actually deliver a solid project.
Kickstarter is a much more honest approach. People putting forth money to a goal that may or may not happen. Hell, now that it is has corporate support it'll be one of the few kickstarters to actually deliver a solid project.
Littlefang
Member
It matters because the publisher stands to make money as an investor but you as a kickstarter backer do not, though you are investing as well. And yes they are forcing you as a Shenmue fan to back the kickstarter if you want the game to be made. If you (collectively) don't back the kickstarter the game would not be made.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Dude. Who the fuck had a gun to their head being forced to fund the kickstarter? Are you fucking high?
Can't we all just be happy Shenmue 3 exists?
If companies start doing scrummy things with crowd funding games then we should make a huge debate about it. As it is now, Sony needed to know people cared, and not just the fans that pray every night for this game but a general audience. Can you really Blame Sony for being skeptical about a game that hasn't had any major releases in 14 years?
If companies start doing scrummy things with crowd funding games then we should make a huge debate about it. As it is now, Sony needed to know people cared, and not just the fans that pray every night for this game but a general audience. Can you really Blame Sony for being skeptical about a game that hasn't had any major releases in 14 years?
Littlefang
Member
Sony is forcing fans to back a kickstarter before they will fund the rest of the game. Without the funding given by Sony, the game is not able to be made. Therefore they are forcing fans of Shenmue if they want another game to back a kickstarter because without the goal being reached, they would not provide those additional funds. 2 million is not nearly enough to make this game so it's clear that the kickstarter alone could never fund this.
Chairmanchuck
Member
The purpose of such kickstarters is usually to show the investor there is a demand for that.
Nowadays quite a lot of KS use that model. They have an investor, but the investor wants to see that there really is a demand for that.
No one is forcing you to fund it. If you want it, you can also wait and see if enough other people want the game to be made.
I don't think it's unreasonable to want greater transparency for this or any other Kickstarter game. Am I funding a game that won't exist without hitting the goal? Will the game be made if the goal is not hit? Or will the game simply have a smaller scope if the goal isn't hit? If external investors are involved, how much are they contributing to the overall project? Is this crowdfunding exercise just a PR stunt meant to drive social media engagement or do you really need the money?
I wouldn't call the affair "scummy" or anything, but I don't like having to parse through very vague and limited information to determine what the final product will be, or to determine how much that Kickstarter campaign actually matters.
Even among the Shenmue Kickstarter supporters, you have a pretty wide range of assumptions being made. Some people seem to understand that this is a limited-scope project meant to conclude the Shenmue story in an economical fashion, whereas others seem to think that this is now a $60 AAA project that will only be the first in a series of followups.
I wouldn't call the affair "scummy" or anything, but I don't like having to parse through very vague and limited information to determine what the final product will be, or to determine how much that Kickstarter campaign actually matters.
Even among the Shenmue Kickstarter supporters, you have a pretty wide range of assumptions being made. Some people seem to understand that this is a limited-scope project meant to conclude the Shenmue story in an economical fashion, whereas others seem to think that this is now a $60 AAA project that will only be the first in a series of followups.
Why do i have to make money? I'm paying money to get all the goodies and of course the game. If i wanted to invest id go buy stock in Ys or Sony.
It's not forcing because just as a fan it doesnt mean I have to do anything. "Back the kickstarter if i want the game" is by definition an optional thing. How is that forcing? Not providing this option would be closer to forcing. If they didn't provide this KS opportunity I'd be "forced" to not have the game.
With KS: I have the option to have the game or not.
Without KS: I have no option but to have no game.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Without funding from anyone (which hasn't been done for 14 years) the game won't be made. It was a complete financial failure before. Sony stepped up under the condition that a successful kickstarter campaign could be undertaken (a totally prudent business decision on their part), in order to mitigate risk. It's a win win win for everyone involved. You're seriously in some fantasy land lollipop insane zone if you think this is somehow anything less than a best case scenario from where we were 5 years ago.
Dude. Pull your head out your ass
Do you understand that it is PC and PS4 exclusive?
Sony could have wholly bought the rights on this, left EVERYONE out, and people would still have bought the damn game because they have been waiting.
The people salty about sony being part of it? PC get.
The people that don't have a PC, or don't play on PC much? They have the option to play the game if they bought a PS4.
If you want to be completely against sony for swooping in and offering a save to a game that was not supposed to exist, I think you may have other things to fight over.
2 million dollars does not make a game like this, not today, and not 10 years ago.
down 2 orth
Member
I'm hoping this game is a success, but my con-job alarm bells are going off. Here's why:
1.) This game take's place in Guilin, China which is a very beautiful scenic area. But the only things going on there are tourism and agriculture. To make a comparison for the United States, it would be like having the game set in Martha's Vinyard.
2.) That trailer was ridiculous, and kind of felt condescending. It was pretty much "Hey otaku nerds! Do you like beautiful Asian women? Just look into her sparkling eyes! She could be yours... but we need funding for this game first.
3.) Just like what other people are arguing. They're taking advantage of the goodwill of their fans to front the bill for a game that should be paid for by the publisher.
4.) The game creator just rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, intuition amounts to shit in any debate but that's just how I feel.
1.) This game take's place in Guilin, China which is a very beautiful scenic area. But the only things going on there are tourism and agriculture. To make a comparison for the United States, it would be like having the game set in Martha's Vinyard.
2.) That trailer was ridiculous, and kind of felt condescending. It was pretty much "Hey otaku nerds! Do you like beautiful Asian women? Just look into her sparkling eyes! She could be yours... but we need funding for this game first.
3.) Just like what other people are arguing. They're taking advantage of the goodwill of their fans to front the bill for a game that should be paid for by the publisher.
4.) The game creator just rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, intuition amounts to shit in any debate but that's just how I feel.
Your logic here is faulty. If the game never reached 2 million for a kickstarter, then the game would sell like crap, then sony would have wasted their money funding Shenmue 3 and then Sony wouldn't want to fund the game to please a very small subset of fans,l and it doesn't get made. The Kickstarter proved there was a market for it.
I'm kinda amazed this is coming to PC with Sony funding it, though.
Why?
It is honestly a good idea. Too risky a project, use kickstarter, lowers risk, now they are ready to make the game.
People are still pulling this non-sense idea? 2 million is ripping off the customers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenmue
This game shouldn't exist, wrap your minds around that.
I can't tell if this post is serious or a joke.
Littlefang
Member
See and I think that's a problem. If this trend continues this will become something just like pre-order culture. But instead of locking content behind a payment for the game before it's out, we'll be doing this with games themselves instead. I wouldn't care if this began and stopped with Shenmue, but it's clearly looking like it's not. And I wouldn't even give a shit if they opened pre-orders before development, but the kickstarter model doesn't guarantee you even a final product or your money back.
Infernostew
Member
This has to be parody.
You're exactly right, but $3M raised in a day is nothing to sneeze at. Those are sales. Granted the game isn't done yet but that's already $3M in sales. Not too bad for a series that's been dead for 14 years.
Con-Job? You mean Sony is going to put money in with a veteran developer and the game might now happen? I mean really. Your stake in it is you get a game for your money or you don't.
donutzsick
Member
My guess is the final game budget will be around 40 million, including marketing. I predict the Kickstarter will end around 9-10 million
Infernostew
Member
I really don't see it as a problem. I'd rather actually fund the games I want early then getting the 20th Assassin's Creed game if it were up to me. Yes, not all kickstarters are guaranteed and some have not met the promises they made but many have. With the funding Y's is getting from the kickstarter and extra money from other investors (such as Sony) it can only be a bigger and better game. They are industry vets so I trust that they know how to make games. Have some faith and quit being such a Debbie Downer!
Littlefang
Member
I think this whole situation is fantastic for Shenmue fans and I am honestly happy for you guys (I don't have an opinion on the franchise either way I've never played it) but I don't like that Sony is checking interest in a game by having it's fans pay money for it without a guarantee for a final product.
I mean of course the kickstarter itself can't be used to actually gauge how well the game will sell. For all we know only those that have backed the kickstarter would be the ones to buy it and ultimately the game sells like crap. Or it could turn a nice profit. We can't predict this right now. But I just hope this isn't going to become a pattern with large developers/publishers.
down 2 orth
Member
I'm not saying they are ripping off their customers. We all know the people backing this project feel very strongly that they are getting value from their donation, and I think it's more than likely that a well received game will be made as a result.
What I think is wrong is that this game doesn't need a kickstarter to be made and that it's only happening to save the publisher 10-20% on development costs. Just look at Nier getting a sequel: it's a big old flop that slowly garnered a cult following, and not nearly one as big as Shenmue I should add.
BoboBrazil
Member
Why are people mad? You are getting the game for $30. It is essentially a pre order to ensure the game gets made(and a higher budget to make a nicer game). That is easily worth going the kickstarter route. I'm all for this way of funding games if it means we can also get a new Parappa.
Neander
Member
I really can't see Sony investing too much into this. The people putting money on this Kick starter are the hardest of hardcores that truly want this game. The money they put down guarantees them a copy of the game. So even if it manages to get up to 5-10 million, that just tells me this game won't be a huge success overall. In the grand scheme of things there's just not much money to be made here.
Do you trust everything you read on the internet?
I doubt Sony would.
They read, I would assume, hundreds of posts about shenmue over the years, if not thousands. But what does that translate into if the game a bunch of people are talking about hasn't been sold in 14 years?
You need this kind of gimmick to solidify that it's not all just hot air from the internet, and that people actually DO still want this.
People are mad because it's not coming out on Xbox One.
I think this is a great way of gauging interest. Makes people put money where their mouths are, and exactly the sort of thing bean counters need to see
down 2 orth
Member
I'm open to having a discussion if you guys have something else you want to say.
Well I could be wrong, but I just don't think this kickstarter was necessary to get the game going.
ForsakenLotus
Member
The problem with this logic is the same thing could happen if it was a normal Kickstarter. In fact, I'd say the game has a much better chance of not only coming out, but being better than it would have without Sony's support.
I'll put it as simply as I can. Right now it's like pre-ordering a game with the option to get some extras if you're willing to pay enough. Shit could happen and the game might not come out, and there likely wouldn't be a refund.
Or, if they did just the Kickstarter, the developers would be on their own. Maybe the game would come out and be the best game ever. It's basically a pre-order that you have the option to get extra stuff if you're willing to pay. If the game doesn't come out, there very likely won't be a refund.
So what's the better option? A "pre-order" that involves Yu working with one of the most prominent publishers, a publisher that has a track record of giving developers creative freedom, a company that has an incredibly talented studio that often works with third party developers on their games (Santa Monica), a publisher that is footing presumably a large portion of the budget, a publisher that gave the game the biggest possible chance for exposure for the Kickstarter project.
Or, Yu announces a Kickstarter for a "pre-order" for the game and hopes he gets enough money and has the right team to make the game.
It's hard not to view anybody who prefers the second option as either very biased, or just very...well, nothing flattering.
Littlefang
Member
Then why don't they just open up pre-orders for the game? Sony clearly required the use of Kickstarter for the publicity. And I'm guessing they assumed it was no different than asking consumers to preorder, but nobody can predict the future and although unlikely, it's possible that something will happen and the game won't get made. And all those Shenmue fans will still be out the money they pledged and won't have a product as a result of their investment. And honestly, I wouldn't care if this was limited to a single game, but what's stopping Sony from doing this will all games that are risky investments?
down 2 orth
Member
Well I won't disagree that it's a great marketing tool. Heck, I wouldn't even say that it's ethically wrong, as people should be free to do what they wish with their money and I don't think there is much overt deception going on here. But I do think that Sony should have fronted the whole bill, and it looks bad from my side that they're asking their fans to do so.
SEGA is a shell of its former self. You think Sega would shell out the money for this?
Doubtful in my mind.
Xbox? I mean, it was on there after dreamcast fell.
Doubtful, because why would you bring a game back that didn't sell very well?
One of the other publishing giants?
Good luck pitching the idea of something 14 years old, and the other games sold fairly poor in most markets.
Think about every possible method they could come up with $40 million to make this game, then make it believable.
Thats fine.
As for myself, I find $29 for the promise, and the game its self to be mine is pretty small price to pay.
Go on ebay and try to buy shenmue 1 and 2, you will pay more than that. Of course, its physical vs digital, but come on.
I would have bought this full price if it had been PS4 exclusive I am sure, and would have had a pretty box and all sorts of goodies, but I am glad we have it on PC.
ForsakenLotus
Member
Shenmue 1 & 2 had huge budgets and sold miserably. They are the definition of a cult hit, and is from a Japanese developer to boot. They came out 14 years ago. Do you REALLY not understand why even Sony, who takes risks with games, would want to gauge legitimate interest in a game no other publisher would touch?
C'mon man.
Littlefang
Member
I don't see why they couldn't just add it to the psn store for pre-order with a message explaining everything just like the kickstarter and using that to gauge interest instead.
KS is being used as a barometer to see if mid sized games are a huge risk or a moderate risk. It's being used to help tell which mid sized games publishers should fund. So lots of old mid sized franchises are getting new life. Nothing about this is a negative.