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[FordGTGuy]

At first I was thinking "well that's kinda crap, but I guess it makes some sense".

And then I remembered that in FM5 you don't even need to actually win to get a gold.

You need to achieve podium to get gold and it should stay like that. Racing games where you get to first in two laps and sit in that position for 3 laps are incredibly boring.

Forza 5 made it to where you could get gold while still spending the whole race toe to toe with others.

 

[Diablohead]

Forza 2 was annoying because if you wanted to gold all races you were tempted to lower the AI so you could get first more often then not.

Podium = gold is the best way to go about it then I can have a good race against advanced AI and not worry too much.

 

[Mascot]

Or you could have an authentic points-based racing series like the majority of motorsports instead of this pseudo-olympic gold, silver and bronze medal system. The points system works because it allows the series standings to vary considerably race-by-race if, say, the overall leader has a bad race, maintaining interest right through to the final event. Getting the same gold medal for coming first or third always seemed like a clumsy solution to come up with when a perfectly good precedent - the points system - already exists.

 

[MouldyK]

You need to achieve podium to get gold and it should stay like that. Racing games where you get to first in two laps and sit in that position for 3 laps are incredibly boring.

Forza 5 made it to where you could get gold while still spending the whole race toe to toe with others.

Forza 2 was annoying because if you wanted to gold all races you were tempted to lower the AI so you could get first more often then not.

Podium = gold is the best way to go about it then I can have a good race against advanced AI and not worry too much.

Forza 5's system only works if you ain't going the Point-Scoring Route, which is the ideal route.

But, like I said, since Forza Horizon 2 has that feature, there is no reason Forza Motorsport 6 cannot. I mean while trying the Storm Island DLC, I finished 2nd or 3rd all of the 4 races...but since I was consistent in my placing, I won overall.


In Forza 5, if you can't get 3rd, you might aswell restart. In Horizon 2, getting 4th just means you have to try harder in the next race.

Or you could have an authentic points-based racing series like the majority of motorsports instead of this pseudo-olympic gold, silver and bronze medal system. The points system works because it allows the series standings to vary considerably race-by-race if, say, the overall leader has a bad race, maintaining interest right through to the final event. Getting the same gold medal for coming first or third always seemed like a clumsy solution to come up with when a perfectly good precedent - the points system - already exists.

Exactly. Like I said, I like the fairness of the Top 3 = Gold method as it allows you to punch above your weight and aim for Top 3 rather than Top 1, leading to more exciting races. But Point System is the most ideal way of going about it.

 

[Fox Mulder]

I just think a gold medal for top 3 is a hilarious compromise instead of making the races longer.

 

[SkinnerSw33t]

I just think a gold medal for top 3 is a hilarious compromise instead of making the races longer.

Just making the races longer doesn't alleviate the problem with win-place-show scoring.

A point system would be better and cater to all types of Forza players, but the current system is better than nothing at all.

Any reason we get less cars in car packs this time around? Forza 5, Forza 4 and Forza 3 had 10 cars per car pack, Forza 6 only give you 7 cars per car pack. Forza 5 Car Pass covered 8 car packs with 10 cars in each and that was 80 cars. Forza 6 on the other hand covers 6 car packs (which I think it was the same in Forza 4 and Forza 3) but with 7 cars in each pack which is only 42 cars.

I already bought Ultimate edition but I was just browsing the store and checked the description for Season Pass, I feel kinda disappointed that they made car packs smaller.

Car packs are smaller but also less expensive. I think the FM5 car pass was $50.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I just think a gold medal for top 3 is a hilarious compromise instead of making the races longer.

Making races longer just means you sit in first place longer until it finally ends.

Racing in real life isn't about coming in first every race, it's about placing.

Forza 2 was annoying because if you wanted to gold all races you were tempted to lower the AI so you could get first more often then not.

Podium = gold is the best way to go about it then I can have a good race against advanced AI and not worry too much.

Exactly.

Online championships should be based on points, this allows for people that use assists to compete with people that don't overall. (Horizon 2)

Offline championships should be based on podiums. (Forza 5)

 

[Mascot]

Defend it all you like but having no distinction between first, second and third place, AND keeping races ridiculously short because the AI can't put up a decent fight beyond two laps both seem to indicate that there are fundamental issues with balancing. Both of the odd 'solutions' currently implemented are treating the symptom, not the cause. More competitive AI with more tuneable difficulty settings across the whole grid - cars that actually put up a decent fight compared to the player's ability - could actually solve the problem at source, making races more thrilling and ultimately more rewarding.

 

[ShamePain]

Defend it all you like but having no distinction between first, second and third place, AND keeping races ridiculously short because the AI can't put up a decent fight beyond two laps both seem to indicate that there are fundamental issues with balancing. Both of the odd 'solutions' currently implemented are treating the symptom, not the cause. More competitive AI with more tuneable difficulty settings across the whole grid - cars that actually put up a decent fight compared to the player's ability - could actually solve the problem at source, making races more thrilling and ultimately more rewarding.

I don't know about the best players, but the top drivatar difficulty level (unbeatable) certainly puts up a good fight for me.

 

[saladine1]

You can keep in the one off races.

Ideally though, I want to feel a sense of accomplishment, so a championship series consisting of 3-5 races or so would be perfect in that regard. Points will be awarded in those races according to position and the gold, silver and bronze or whatever would be assigned at the end. It's an old formula but it works so well.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Defend it all you like but having no distinction between first, second and third place, AND keeping races ridiculously short because the AI can't put up a decent fight beyond two laps both seem to indicate that there are fundamental issues with balancing. Both of the odd 'solutions' currently implemented are treating the symptom, not the cause. More competitive AI with more tuneable difficulty settings across the whole grid - cars that actually put up a decent fight compared to the player's ability - could actually solve the problem at source, making races more thrilling and ultimately more rewarding.

Turn off all the assists and set the difficulty to unbeatable if you really believe that.

 

[SatansReverence]

Turn off all the assists and set the difficulty to unbeatable if you really believe that.

It's still hardly a challenge for any half fast racer because the A.I still has the same problem it's had since FM1, slowing down for corners when there is little to no need to.

 

[Klocker]

It's still hardly a challenge for any half fast racer because the A.I still has the same problem it's had since FM1, slowing down for corners when there is little to no need to.

Dan has stated that the improvements to fm6 drivatars include correcting just that behavior. More speed through corners.

 

[FordGTGuy]

It's still hardly a challenge for any half fast racer because the A.I still has the same problem it's had since FM1, slowing down for corners when there is little to no need to.

I'm more than a "half-fast driver" and saying unbeatable is hardly a challenge is non-sense.

 

[Cave Johnson]

50FPS (PAL version confirmed)

 

[Shaneus]

Defend it all you like but having no distinction between first, second and third place, AND keeping races ridiculously short because the AI can't put up a decent fight beyond two laps both seem to indicate that there are fundamental issues with balancing. Both of the odd 'solutions' currently implemented are treating the symptom, not the cause. More competitive AI with more tuneable difficulty settings across the whole grid - cars that actually put up a decent fight compared to the player's ability - could actually solve the problem at source, making races more thrilling and ultimately more rewarding.

Forza Motorsport*

Spoiler

*Where "Motorsport" is like those real-life races where a podium is as good as finishing first. Like F1 and all the different touring car series'.

 

[SatansReverence]

Dan has stated that the improvements to fm6 drivatars include correcting just that behavior. More speed through corners.

All I've seen him refer to is how very good players will ever so slightly drift going around corners to get the very most from the tyres (yes, that is realistic before anyone even thinks to cry arcade). Not specifically mentioning the A.I slowing, sometimes even drastically, for high speed corners/kinks.

I'm more than a "half-fast driver" and saying unbeatable is hardly a challenge is non-sense.

Than you aren't half as fast as you think you are...

 

[AristoCat]

It's still hardly a challenge for any half fast racer because the A.I still has the same problem it's had since FM1, slowing down for corners when there is little to no need to.

This. On the Nordschleife for instance you can easily beat them by more than one minute because of this.

 

[FordGTGuy]

All I've seen him refer to is how very good players will ever so slightly drift going around corners to get the very most from the tyres (yes, that is realistic before anyone even thinks to cry arcade). Not specifically mentioning the A.I slowing, sometimes even drastically, for high speed corners/kinks.



Than you aren't half as fast as you think you are...

I'm in the top 6% of the fastest drivers in Forza 5.....

 

[Fox Mulder]

This. On the Nordschleife for instance you can easily beat them by more than one minute because of this.

That's because lots of people use the braking line aid, which can be a bit conservative in areas. Then there's shit like the first few turns in long beach.

 

[SatansReverence]

I'm in the top 6% of the fastest drivers in Forza 5.....

6%?

eh he he he...

 

[ShamePain]

That's because lots of people use the braking line aid, which can be a bit conservative in areas. Then there's shit like the first few turns in long beach.

I'm pretty sure the difficulty settings pull from players according to set lap times. So the hardest setting pulls from fastest players. But yeah, they're not very fast on the Nurburgring for some reason.

 

[FordGTGuy]

6%?

eh he he he...

The drivatar in my race that won first place had a fast enough lap to be in the top 5000 out of 1.5 million racers.......

Yes calling unbeatable drivatars hardly a challenge is absurd.

Also drivatars don't just get harder from setting them to unbeatable, they also become harder as you drive. The better you are, the harder the drivatars it will set against you.

Also nvm the 6% number, that was just a random top amount I was in on Spa with a dirty lap, I don't care about setting lap times.

 

[SatansReverence]

The drivatar in my race that won first place had a fast enough lap to be in the top 5000 out of 1.5 million racers.......

Yes calling unbeatable drivatars hardly a challenge is absurd.

Also drivatars don't just get harder from setting them to unbeatable, they also become harder as you drive. The better you are, the harder the drivatars it will set against you.

Also nvm the 6% number, that was just a random top amount I was in on Spa with a dirty lap, I don't care about setting lap times.

So a dirty lap is still pulling top 6% times are you're still going to try to use leaderboards as a metric for A.I speed?

Okay.

 

[FordGTGuy]

So a dirty lap is still pulling top 6% times are you're still going to try to use leaderboards as a metric for A.I speed?

Okay.

how many half-fast racers are setting top 5000 lap numbers in a random race?

You're the one that made the claim that unbeatable difficulty is hardly a challenge for half-fast drivers.

This. On the Nordschleife for instance you can easily beat them by more than one minute because of this.

I just raced with unbeatable on Nordschliefe A class, the fastest record is 6:47.680.(above 7 minutes is top 74).

The fastest drivatar in my race ran a 7:31.508, the second ran a 7:32.452 and third a 7:33.555.

I came in second with a 7:34.715.

Beating any of these by more than a minute is literally impossible.

 

[Mascot]

Turn off all the assists and set the difficulty to unbeatable if you really believe that.

Hang on a sec - it was you that said longer races are pointless because they just mean you are out in front on your own for longer. Does the AI provide a good challenge or not?

 

[soundscream]

Hang on a sec - it was you that said longer races are pointless because they just mean you are out in front on your own for longer. Does the AI provide a good challenge or not?

On pro and above yes, on anything lower no. The default difficulty on custom races is normal, and when I forget to turn it up I notice I am in first after the first or second turn.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Hang on a sec - it was you that said longer races are pointless because they just mean you are out in front on your own for longer. Does the AI provide a good challenge or not?

Most people don't race at that high of difficulty.

 

[SkinnerSw33t]

Drivatar effectiveness is a big reason why short races are so problematic in Forza 5. The game forces you to be way too aggressive at times.

My pet theory is that Drivatar aggressiveness at the lower difficulties was actually made much worse due to this nasty cycle that T10 inadvertently created.

 

[AristoCat]

I just raced with unbeatable on Nordschliefe A class, the fastest record is 6:47.680.(above 7 minutes is top 74).

The fastest drivatar in my race ran a 7:31.508, the second ran a 7:32.452 and third a 7:33.555.

I came in second with a 7:34.715.

Beating any of these by more than a minute is literally impossible.

Ok I wasn't remembering properly (didn't played fm5 that much but it was something along those lines in fm4 with max difficulty settings), my bad, but you can still beat fairly easily the "unbeatable" AI without putting much of an effort.


Just retried in A class and running 7'29 something, drivatars five to ten second behind after the first lap.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Ok I wasn't remembering properly (didn't played fm5 that much but it was something along those lines in fm4 with max difficulty settings), my bad, but you can still beat fairly easily the "unbeatable" AI without putting much of an effort.


Just retried in A class and running 7'29 something, drivatars five to ten second behind after the first lap.

Running a 7:29 without assists is definitely not "without putting much of an effort".

Your running a top 3000 time in a refresher lap on Nurburgring?

If you're that good, well that's fine but for the 99%+ of us, that isn't the case.

 

[AristoCat]

I'm currently running the lap flatout in 7'11'656 sitting rank 606 so 7'29 is without putting any effort.

And I consider myself as half-fast because the gap between the first time and mine is still quite huge.

Anyway the whole point of my first intervention was that even unbeatable AI can be lost after some time/lap, so a higher difficulty would be great.

 

[Mascot]

Most people don't race at that high of difficulty.

OK, but if the AI is indeed competent and fast enough to put up a good challenge for all levels of player ability, then what does that do to your argument against longer races? You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Do you see?

 

[m23]

There definitely needs to be an increase in lap numbers for races, at least 3 laps. 2 laps is just a joke.

 

[AristoCat]

There definitely needs to be an increase in lap numbers for races, at least 3 laps. 2 laps is just a joke.

Yep 5 to 10 laps to at least feel commited to the race.

 

[Mascot]

Just make lap numbers user-definable. That way, everyone is happy.

I've no idea why Turn 10 stubbornly refuse to accommodate this.

 

[Lima]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

 

[SatansReverence]

Just make lap numbers user-definable. That way, everyone is happy.

I've no idea why Turn 10 stubbornly refuse to accommodate this.

Would love career races to be ~15-20minutes long.

2 lap sprints are just ridiculous.

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Considering online console racing usually devolves into corner cutting bumper cars, yeah, I'd prefer to race A.I sometimes.

 

[m23]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Wrap it up folks, let's get rid of career mode. Turn Forza into an online only racing game.

 

[ironcreed]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Don't waste your time feeling sorry for me. I have a blast playing these games against AI and always have.

 

[Cyros]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Well...thanks.

 

[_machine]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Oh crap, thank you for making me realize that I wasn't actually having fun during the thousands of hours spend in offline racing. Online is an important part for sure, but it's not the sole reason why the majority of people buy these game.

 

[SkinnerSw33t]

...so a higher difficulty would be great.

T10 should just have Drivatars scale to the player at the Unbeatable level, and there may be something like that in FM6 since they've mentioned better control over the AI.

 

[ironcreed]

I just picked up Project Cars yesterday and am glad I did. It is going to tide me over quite nicely until Forza 6 comes out and will be enjoyed right along beside it afterwards. As I think it sits up there beside Forza and GT and it's nice to have a third wheel, so to speak.

 

[FordGTGuy]

I'm currently running the lap flatout in 7'11'656 sitting rank 606 so 7'29 is without putting any effort.

And I consider myself as half-fast because the gap between the first time and mine is still quite huge.

Aniway the whole point of my first intervention was that even unbeatable AI can be lost after some time/lap, so a higher difficulty would be great.

Rank 606 on leaderboards... "half-fast".

The leaderboard has been up for over a year and has 120,000+ players on it too.

 

[AristoCat]

But leader boards are not really representative of the level of the driver, anyway. Take a properly tuned car and I'm pretty convinced you could do the same.

Half fast, considering I' m 24 seconds behind the first, which is what I define as properly fast.

 

[FordGTGuy]

But leader boards are not really representative of the level of the driver, anyway. Take a properly tuned car and I'm pretty convinced you could do the same.

Half fast, considering I' m 24 seconds behind the first, which is what I define as properly fast.

You define the fastest person to ever drive on that track to be just fast?

Most people just aren't nearly as quick as you are man, that 24 seconds might sound like a lot but only 74 people have gone under 7 minutes.

 

[AristoCat]

He is the fastest so yes, everything behind him is just slower. I may be faster than a lot of people, but as long as I have not reach a similar level of performance, I'm just not that fast.

But it doesn't really matter anyway, as long as the game is enjoyable by many.

 

[Gestault]

Man so much arguing about something that no one that actually plays these games gives a shit about. If you play racing games mainly against AI I feel sorry for you.

Hour-for-hour, I play against AI most of the time, and I enjoy it for that reason. It's part of why that matters so much to me when I'm deciding what to put extended pay-time into. I'm someone who was cheering for the Drivatar system when I saw how well it worked in career mode.

 

[Klocker]

He is the fastest so yes, everything behind him is just slower. I may be faster than a lot of people, but as long as I have not reach a similar level of performance, I'm just not that fast.

But it doesn't really matter anyway, as long as the game is enjoyable by many.

Get over it. You are ridiculously fast and expecting a game to adjust perfectly to your and the top 74 peoples' level of skill as if it is broken, and claiming to be "half-fast" in that group, is silly.

That's like asking Tiger Woods games to prevent the top 15 people from shooting 43 on courses when the vast majority work hard to score 68.

That said, I'm with Mascot, give us OPTIONS on lap numbers and everywhere else.