You can probably find an encyclopedia of bodily fluids on that couch.Gutabo where you at???
Fighting Games Weekly | July 13-19 | Stream Monster Yearly: Evolution 2015
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I reach tomorrow night, we gonna avatar?
Professor Beef
Banned
When the man with the flaming joystick runs up the coliseum steps and ignites the flame.
Real answer: Friday 8 am
I bet a lot of germs and bacteria's stuck on that couch now... Not to mention the smell.
Not Jun, noooo.
sf2fanatic
Member
Gonna miss my buddy's first match on Friday. Was hoping to see him on stream.
8am in las vegas? is that Pacific time?
sf2fanatic
Member
Yes.
Just finished walking the Azusa Salty Runback.
This lady with the "How can we say no? No" and "I don't want to put us between us and the landlord, but fuck dat bitch." God. Damn. Shit is an emotional rollercoaster, there's zero substance behind their concerns. How do you tell people to spend money and time substantiating their claims and proposals and rebut with "IDK location sux"?
TBH the council was fairly accommodating and they felt at least a bit sympathetic (weird to hear after all that they suggest the city council might just overrule them) but it still sounds like their bottomline is baseless. Also kind of feel like they were giving Blue Shirt Hero (That Level 3 "With all due respect, isn't that our job? whew) the side eye because he admitted last time he was a gamer. Blue Shirt Hero was going IN exposing how that place being a shithole is their fault and summarizing every logical argument and... nothing, fuck that landlord. Just depressing.
Shout outs to everyone that showed up, even IGN. I don't think the infodump helped, but it was appreciated.
This lady with the "How can we say no? No" and "I don't want to put us between us and the landlord, but fuck dat bitch." God. Damn. Shit is an emotional rollercoaster, there's zero substance behind their concerns. How do you tell people to spend money and time substantiating their claims and proposals and rebut with "IDK location sux"?
TBH the council was fairly accommodating and they felt at least a bit sympathetic (weird to hear after all that they suggest the city council might just overrule them) but it still sounds like their bottomline is baseless. Also kind of feel like they were giving Blue Shirt Hero (That Level 3 "With all due respect, isn't that our job? whew) the side eye because he admitted last time he was a gamer. Blue Shirt Hero was going IN exposing how that place being a shithole is their fault and summarizing every logical argument and... nothing, fuck that landlord. Just depressing.
Shout outs to everyone that showed up, even IGN. I don't think the infodump helped, but it was appreciated.
WesternHeretic
Member
Yep... sounds like your average middle age American lady. God bless this country, but we really fuck up on that generation.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I didn't see any in this casino yet though
Just woke up, so i'm responding to old stuff.
But counterpicks and alts aren't required. Every single evo champ so far has been a character specialist and i feel that having to play a lot differently depending on the matchup is a big part of what makes the game fun.
DryEyeRelief
Member
That's not true. Infiltration countered Dieminion with Gouken on his way to becoming Evo champion.
And even then, former evo champions like Xian and Fuudo have been investing in alternates.
And even then, former evo champions like Xian and Fuudo have been investing in alternates.
2009-2010 - Ryu, metagame not established enough, plus I dunno enough about his retroactive tier placement
2011 - Fei, toppest of tier, stable MUs
2012 - Akuma, toppest of tiers, stable MUs
2013 - Gen, surprise wildcard pick. Could argue lack of MU exposure even helped
2014 - Rose, consaidered high tier at the time with few bad MUs couple months post release
You actually could argue that the Evo champions won due to how they chose their characters in regards to MU and metagame. The fact of the matter is the game has very character specific tools and situations and you answer them or you don't. If your character doesn't have an answer, well, rip that MU. You can win but it basically will come down to insanely good guessing. In a MU where a character's main gameplan is reduced or invalidated by a character with a tool to offset it, it's sadness. SF4 has a lot of that thanks to linear tools/gameplans assigned to each character, along with weak universal systems.
It's also worth noting Evo is a single tournament. In other tournaments top players are picking chars that overcome most MUs or have an alt good to go. The ones who don't carry a lot of risk simply by existing in a bracket that has another bad MU that has a chance to "random" them out. It's why you see guys like 801 Strider being fucking brilliant and performing but hey, sometimes Abel runs into a situation where he has to guess way more and has more opportunity to go out. It's certainly not impossible, he got 2nd at CEO, but it could've gone way differently.
You could look at high level play of any tournament in the last year or two and point out examples of wonky brackets and "random" results due to bad MUs happening.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Tiger knee is just a cool looking move.
I need to find a site that doesn't double the gif speed, though. I could fix it in photoshop every time, I guess.
I need to find a site that doesn't double the gif speed, though. I could fix it in photoshop every time, I guess.
What I find interesting is they're all vanilla characters.
With the exception of maybe Xian, everyone played those characters from the start.
Seasoned Badger
Member
Fuudo played Ryu till Fei was released in the arcade.
I know the struggle of bad matchups but i feel like it's the tradeoff of having characters with unique playstyles. Even then at this point the 7-3s are so few and far in between that complaining about the matchups in this game when most other 2d fighters have the top tier running circles around every other character is a bit silly.
Other than Ryu and Akuma the rest aren't really vanilla.
Juicebox_FGC
Member
This is true. Some people prefer games like SF where characters are wildly different and the gameplay emerges out of those differences. The tradeoff, as you said, is there are sometimes 7-3 or worse matchups, and sometimes (often) this means that the strength of a character is tied to bracket variance (in characters) and to a small extent, luck.
Others (like me, and I'm guessing Anne) prefer games where core gameplay in most matchups is highly similar, and character differences usually do not equate to appreciable matchup differences. The tradeoff here is that the best characters in these games are the best in very concrete, simple ways which can sometimes lead to stale character choices, especially at tip-top level.
The reason a person would like this 2nd style of balance is because it gets rid of the luck/variance factor. No one can really counterpick you in KOF once you understand the game.
As for why a person would like the SF-style of balance... well I imagine it's because they find the differences "exciting" and "interesting", aka hype.
Hype means something different to different people, I suppose.
It's not "hype", at least to me. It's just more fun to play. It's fun to keep away with Sim, it's fun to rush asses down with Abel and it's fun be adaptable and play footsies with Ryu. I love that i can pick two characters against the same opponent and have a wildly different match, it's what keeps me coming back to SF.
Juicebox_FGC
Member
Karsticles
Member
What is that?Yeah.
More people tend to agree with your stance than mine.
Learning how your characters' differences interact and how it alters how you have to play things is what keeps the variety in the game. Otherwise things blend together and become monotonous.Yeah.
More people tend to agree with your stance than mine.
You can have characters with unique playstyles that still have universal tools that help make decisions more varied and interesting and leave the bad MUs to be less to do with those specific tools just not existing in that situation. Look at a KoF game or Yata. Persona kinda gets this right but the main problem is some toolsets are just way too strong and then the game kinda gets lopsided to the top 2/3s of the cast.
SF4 just dead ass has situations where the lack of certain types of options vs the stronger options in the game exist and you just gotta guess harder. Like in SF4 when I was playing Sakura, people would ask me "hey, my usual stuff has issues with 3f fierce blowing it, what do I do?" and I'm like "well you call it out really hard or don't do it". They don't have a better option to deal with it. When it becomes "can I play risk/reward well vs these couple options" the MUs stack up fast if there aren't common universal answers.
Meanwhile in Persona I play Aigis, a dominating character with mix up descended from the MvC2 heavens. Yeah, she has lots of good MUs, but there are universal answers to her stuff. Every character in the game has access to roll and GC roll, 2 ways to actually force her to change up her mix up and call her out on her bullshit. The reason she mostly has good MUs isn't because characters lack options to deal with situations, it's because she gets to be safe and have stupid high reward more often. Persona isn't /perfect/ in this regard, KoF is better at it, but it illustrates the point of there's a universal dynamic there.
SF4 is a game about learning the in and outs of what your character does, then applying those key specifics in MU scenarios. You play the character specific MUs more than you play the game and player specific aspects. At a high level of course there's still a lot going on, but when it comes down to it there are gonna be times where MU things happen and a bad guess gets taken and somebody just explodes.
There's nothing wrong with the game being like that at a basic level, but I do know I personally don't find it very fun past a certain point. I'd rather experience more of how players act in regards to the engine and player approach rather than character and MU approach. It's an endgame other recent fighters have shown, and they've had success. But, it's no secret it's worn out its welcome as games with stronger universal toolsets have been getting a lot of praise lately.
I like it to be somewhere in the middle. Persona is in the middle where there's character variance (especially on the offensive side) but a universal toolset exists between the cast and MUs are usually less about a lack of options. I say usually cause it's not perfect haha. I like UNiEL too and it's built similarly to Persona.
Blazblue is more towards the character side of things, but it has enough built in to make it work now so I play it. The main reason I don't like Xrd is cause it's looking to be more on the character side of thigns cause character options are so fucking strong and universal options are really weak.
Maybe to you. To me I feel like once the characters get figured it out it gets boring in games like that. I'm much more interested in how a specific player is thinking and making decisions based more around their opponent's choices rather than character options.
There's a launch stream for Pokken, showing gameplay with the new characters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asYTBraEICk
Universal options sure as hell didn't help Liz ;-;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asYTBraEICk
Universal options sure as hell didn't help Liz ;-;
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I much prefer this style as well. It's just a bit much in a game with as many characters as SF4, even narrowing it down to just the characters that are "relevant." I think that's a huge strength of the game, though, even if I don't care for SF4 much for other reasons.
Marvel is on the extreme end of this. I like it in that game too, but more characters tend to suffer for it in that series. Characters without sufficient air options usually fall behind, for example. In Marvel 2, it means that you get no damage (opponent being able to tech out of knockdowns = SOL at super jump height), and in Marvel 3, it usually makes it harder or impossible to get TAC infinites. Only a few rare characters have tools strong enough to get past that handicap and still be top tier (Cable, Vergil).
I've heard Clockwork and some other players comment on how they find variety more important than balance. I mostly agree.
They actually do. Liz's DP is ass, so is her normal GC. GC roll and regular roll get her out of certain situations where she'd almost certainly die. Liz is bad because she has to take an astronomical amount of risk for low reward, especially on the ground in neutral.
It's worth noting in P4A she actually wasn't that bad outside of Narukami and Mits shutting her down, and the main reason was because she had to take too much risk on the ground vs things like 5B and 5A/droit while Narukami and Mitsuru had massive reward.
Panama city right now, will be here for five more hours and then off to las vegas we go! (Will post from the paris hotel)
Juicebox_FGC
Member
My stance is that a fighting game is fun when both players are mentally engaged with each other.
After the character select screen in SF4, if both players are good at the game, they already have an idea of how the match will go. Dudley vs Dhalsim? Dudley wants in. These are the ways he can get in. These are his counterpokes for Dhalsim's pokes. These are the frame trap timings, these are the CH combos. These are the ways Dhalsim can fail and Dudley will succeed... and of course vice versa.
It is my opinion that this type of game discourages mental engagement, specifically because of uneven risk/reward in skewed matchups.
The reason this is a good matchup for Dudley is because every time he tries to get in he stands to gain about 200-300 damage plus consecutive mixups, and Dhalsim stands to gain... maybe 80-90 damage or a throw. As Sim builds meter the damage potential evens out, but only for that instant. If Sim doesn't end the round in this way, "normal" cat-and-mouse risk/reward ratios continue as before.
When both players know all of this, -sometimes- mental engagement between players occurs. Sometimes the Dudley think "I'm going to try and read his far HP... I'll hang around this range and see if I can get a whiff punish." Whereas the Sim might think "Hmm, he's not actively trying to get in. I better be wary about sticking out pre-emptive pokes, so I'll go for yoga fire now and see if he adapts."
But sometimes, the... other stuff happens.
When a Dudley thinks:
1) jump
2) qcf+K
3) block for a moment
4) focus for a moment
and Sim thinks:
1) yoga fire
2) backdash
3) stMK
4) crMP
5) stHP
6) wait for jump
The game takes a different turn. If you watch Smug vs Sabin, both the "engaged" and the "pull from a hat" styles can be seen from both players.
I think that it is OK to play in any way you choose. What I DO NOT think is OK is when the choices made on the character select screen strengthen or weaken these styles. I believe how effective these styles are should be a reflection only of the choices made.
KOF is fun for me because Kyo vs Iori is not -always- Iori chasing Kyo. It can be whatever the players deem it fit to be.
I wonder if Arc would have made her tools better if universal tools weren't there to cover for them or if she'd have been in a worse situation. Because yeah in some games universal tools are all that keep some characters from being unplayable.
toddhunter
Member
The flip side is why I find KOF pretty boring. You have more scope, but characters lack identitity and I enjoy the puzzle of a bad matchup. Sure you might know how a match will play out, but that is where you can anticipate and out-think your opponent.
I think snake eyes is a great demonstration of this. Zangief has a lot of bad matches, but he has figured out ways to use that to his advantage.
I think snake eyes is a great demonstration of this. Zangief has a lot of bad matches, but he has figured out ways to use that to his advantage.
KidA Seven
Member
Urien is also in charge of the genetic/cloning program so it fits in with Nash as well.
Well, they actually made her universal tools really ass to try and balance her other crazy abnormal shit. DP is ass, AOA is ass, GC is ass. In return they let her persona break a lot of rules and she kinda gets to not fit in as well with the cats. Her 2B and sweep were the only universal things she excelled with.
That's why they made her super high risk, they were afraid her tools would go against the more "normalized" cast and gave her the ass health and poor universal options to compensate. Unfortunately the cast were mostly well rounded enough to deal with her various shit so she just ended being super high risk which killed her in MUs where there were more solid answers.
Remember when I said it's not perfect? Liz is an example of how they tried to make a character go in a different direction and it ended with some sloppy design they dunno how to make fit right. They just make her ass to make it less likely she breaks everything.
i don't really have a problem with either, it's just that i view marvel as a game that brings the greatest 'how do we design this character' senses out there by nature of the limitations on a character's mechanics
assists and other team mechanics are there to balance out the lack of tools so it's inherently built into the system to have potential universal design, meaning that the point characters can be allowed to have more limitations in strict design departments otherwise
if there's a universal basic mechanic then every character has to effectively be designed around that mechanic to an extent and it limits the possibilities of creativity/interesting designs (for a team game). the way taskmaster and hawkeye (2 of my favorite chars) are designed are extremely explicit in terms of their limitations of movement and their tools that were built under that limitation fit extremely well into my personal niches despite their functional design being explicitly inferior to the top tier characters when boiled down to that purpose
also urien and gill got confirmed in a sf5 comic scan thing so i guess there's that
assists and other team mechanics are there to balance out the lack of tools so it's inherently built into the system to have potential universal design, meaning that the point characters can be allowed to have more limitations in strict design departments otherwise
if there's a universal basic mechanic then every character has to effectively be designed around that mechanic to an extent and it limits the possibilities of creativity/interesting designs (for a team game). the way taskmaster and hawkeye (2 of my favorite chars) are designed are extremely explicit in terms of their limitations of movement and their tools that were built under that limitation fit extremely well into my personal niches despite their functional design being explicitly inferior to the top tier characters when boiled down to that purpose
also urien and gill got confirmed in a sf5 comic scan thing so i guess there's that
Until Snake Eyes runs into Bonchan. Then he picks Evil Ryu and Bonchan counterpicks with Ryu or takes the bad matchup if he doesn't want to do Ryu vs Gief or something lol.
Thanks for explaining things with the write up.You, Juicebox and Dahbomb are so wise.
Lostconfused
Member
I saw that start out, but where did that trainwreck end up at? The whole thing seemed potentially very amusing.
This isn't the case with KOF98 and to a lesser extent KOF02. It is a big problem with XIII.
toddhunter
Member
That is true, but that is also Bonchan. It still doesn't mean more for for lesser mortals just having fun.
True.
It'll be very interesting to see where they go next.
Lol yeah I'm just saying that, when I read Juicebox's and Anne's posts, I think of Snake Eyes vs Bonchan or Arturo vs Infiltration and I can kinda see where they're coming from. It's fun to watch them beat bad matchups, but I can't imagine it being fun as a competitor.
Lostconfused
Member
Then why use Snake Eyez as an example? Unless I misunderstood all the mentions of him in this thread and he is just another average player.