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Black Lives Matter disrupts Martin OMalley, Bernie Sanders town hall
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Lol what is this hit piece horseshit?
A lot of socialists actually really dislike Bernie. Especially if you go to r/socialism. There's a lot of genuine and really reasonable criticism to be made of his past. Even Socialist Alternative, who endorsed Jil Stein as a Green Party candidate is refusing to endorse him and have been heavily critical of his campaign (even though they're also attempting to co-opt his popularity at his rallies). There main complaint and something explored in that article is that he made the choice to run as a democrat. I just think it's dumb if you are a leftist to not support him given what our other options are.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
I think it says something about the shifting political landscape that even Bernie Sanders catches flack among some crowds for being too moderate. Admittedly, I find myself to his left regarding gun rights.
That said, if you find yourself to the left of Bernie... your best option is still Bernie. It's not like there's any viable choice that will be more aligned to your views.
benicillin
Banned
You answered your own question, it's hit piece horseshit.
Counterpunch is not in the business of hit pieces. They have had articles on all politicians including against Hillary, Obama, Bush, Koch brother etc...
This article is merely stating Bernie Sanders is not as leftist as people say he is.
Just because it doesn't rah rah like Neo-GAF generally wants doesn't mean I should buy into the rah-rah Neo-GAF wants.
They are the middle left I'd guess. They think this stuff is fixable within the current system and so they don't see economics as the be all end all factor that everything else is based on. I tend to agree but am worried it's because I think it's too hard to face the alternative.
It's also possible I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about.
Ok, so then who are you going to vote for? And how is it relevant to this thread?
I'd guess their goal is to prove that electoral politics is pointless and this gets them more hits than a permanent page that says "Don't vote."
Yep. Bernie Sanders is not a socialist. Also I vote Green party. Why should I vote for him when I know he isn't what he says he is? He is just another establishment democrat. He brings nothing new to the table. It's not dumb to not support him.
Making compromises is why we Americans never get anywhere. We always say "well shucks this guy is better than a Republican" and end up voting for a centrist.
I'm not voting for yet another charlatan.
You're taking away the main discussion of the thread. Go to PoliGAF or make your own thread.
That isn't how Counterpunch works. Often times they push for issues rather than candidates and bring points up about certain candidates.
Right now I'm leaning Jill Stein of the Green Party. I'll check out Cynthia McKinny's view if the Green Party gives her the nomination(If she decides to run).
People doing what you do is part of why we never get anywhere. Our first past the post voting system is not built to do what you want it to. It's built so that if you want to sway things left you vote for the left most candidate of the top two, the two who have a chance. Voting 3rd party is throwing out your vote and sliding the scale the other way opposite of your beliefs.
Train of Midnight
Banned
bruh
Off topic but compromise is exactly how we get stuff done in this country. Always has and always will. Lets not derail this thread any further.
Please make a separate thread if you want to argue this topic. We're trying to talk about Bernie's interaction with #BLM here. We were getting somewhere until you showed up and shat up the thread.
Has Hillary engaged the black community, by the way?
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Strictly in terms of this campaign, yes.
First by saying "all lives matter", and then by learning not to say that.
One of her interns did on facebook.
:lol
Yeah but I meant to ask in terms of what the people in this thread are saying, aka community outreach, speaking to leaders and activists etc.
Gotta say I think this is exactly wrong. We never get anywhere because we all play statistics instead of voting for who represents us, which is why we have a moderate versus moderate system.
Well the first past the post system means we can't get what we really want, we just get what we dislike the least.
See: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
(Though you're probably aware of the problems)
I don't know if it's specifically an outreach to black people, but she gave a speech in Detroit where she supporters the fast food workers on strike. And she's clearly the candidate that is most in tune with the black community.
I really would like to see if she'll actually support a 15 dollar minimum wage outright though. Or for that matter if she'll actually #sayhername and black lives matter in one of her upcoming speeches. My gut says she probably will do both of those things, but it would be a drastic change from her current position of waiting things out.
Actually. Now that I think about it; there's not chance she brings up Sandra Bland. It's way too controversial. But at least she commented on Facebook about other things.
Great. This is not the thread for you. Feel free to start another one on that topic.
Damerman
Member
What policies do you want?
I understand the black lives matter movement... And i embraced it, but looking for a dictator who will erradicate racism isnt going to happen.
At risk of reiterating, I think while we can't "end racism", we need laws that reduce/prevent unlawful discrimination and antagonization of black people (aka police cams, incarceration laws, hiring policies), and also laws that help black people get out of the rut all the years of racism has placed them in (education, income, housing, jobs, healthcare etc).
Both of those are too is addressed by Bernie, but people seem to not be happy that it's a "helping everyone will help black people as well" solution and want Bernie to specifically acknowledge the black community with the same policies he already has to gain their support explicitly.
At least that's how I see the discussion in this thread has progressed.
Also, some of these issues are things that need to be solved at the state/PD level so it's not entirely Bernie's problem. Bernie meets most demands of #BLM's official list, especially those that can be met at the executive level. But people want outreach, they want to be recognized, I guess.
not psycho
Member
Yeah, while Sanders has been bad at getting his message across, I definitely think some people are unaware of much of what he has said and done, and are treating him as some kind of pure economics caricature.
He will likely improve on this now. He has plenty to draw from, actual positions and votes. He doesn't have to be so awkward, or rely on "I marched with MLK". That's nice and all, but the positions and votes are way more important.
Edit: It may be his supporters relying on the MLK connection rather than Sanders himself. He is probably smart enough not to abuse that connection, but some supporters are dumb, and hurting his campaign.
We demand an immediate end to police brutality and the murder of Black people and all oppressed people.
Sanders agrees here. He has called for body cameras, a culture change in the police and holding officers accountable when they commit crimes. I would like some more specifics, but let's not pretend he has said economics would solve everything. A culture change and accountability (among other things) are absolutely necessary too.
Let's also not pretend that economics are irrelevant though. "Sanders calls for nothing less than a "political revolution" that would use tax policy to reverse what he calls the massive transfer of wealth from ordinary families to the most affluent over the past generation"
Wealth inequality is closely connected with racism and police brutality, regardless of the financial position of the individual who is targeted. Even rich Black people often live in lower income areas compared to White people of equal wealth. The levels of income inequality and incarceration being so closely tied to race also feeds stereotypes. I think in this thread some people are going overboard on wanting to throw out economics, almost to the point where mentioning it is "dodging" the real issue. But it is a huge part of the real issue.
We demand freedom from mass incarceration and an end to the prison industrial complex.
Sanders has been fighting for this for decades, including back when most were supporting "tough on crime" legislation. From 1991:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZJ7f-3XGB4
"This is not a crime prevention bill, this is a punishment bill, a retribution bill, a vengeance bill... let's not keep putting poor people into jail and disproportionately punishing Blacks"
He also voted for alternative sentencing bills, against "mandatory minimums", against greater prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crimes.
We demand an aggressive attack against all laws, policies, and entities that disenfranchise any community from expressing themselves at the ballot.
Sanders initiated the request with the GAO that led to debunking voter ID laws:
"We must make it easier, not harder, for poor and working people to vote and to participate in the political process. These state laws arent really intended to discourage fraud, theyre intended to discourage voting. The GAO looked at study after study and found no credible evidence of voter fraud having had any impact whatsoever on the outcome of any election in recent history."
He also introduced a bill to make election day a national holiday.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Bernie Sanders supporters are going to ruin Sanders' already slim chances of competing with Hillary, and that depresses me greatly. Continue to insulate Sanders, continue to wave that "he was in the Civil Rights Movement" banner, continue to bring up MLK Jr. inappropriately and get really mad when Sanders gets criticized, this will surely make Sanders the victor in 2016.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Sanders never had a chance. Sanders has already expressed in detail over many years his positions. The people who are criticizing Sanders now will have never voted for him if this communication problem was his biggest mistake.
Train of Midnight
Banned
It's not even defensiveness at this point, it's utter bewilderment. It's one thing to address a person's shortcomings, and another to abandon the candidate entirely because of minor flaws. I understand the feelings behind it, but not the conclusion.
Don't think he ever really had a great really shot at winning. I think this run was more about getting the message out more than anything else.
I guess it may look that way on the internet. But Bernie was never going to get the black vote. He never had a chance to win the nomination and it doesn't remotely make any sense that his fans would hurt his chances of winning it.
I think supporters bringing it up are hoping activists would then implicitly understand it wasn't a one-time thing and he's been championing minority rights for the next 40 years, but apparently it needs to be spelled out like above.
I agree that he needs to improve the messaging but if you're crashing political rallies you can pull up a smartphone and research.
I agree that he needs to improve the messaging but if you're crashing political rallies you can pull up a smartphone and research.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Assuming that anyone who is standing in opposition to you on something is simply uneducated is such a liberal thing.
Bernie wouldn't get the black vote for the same reason he won't get any "___ votes". There isn't something inherently about Sanders that drives the black vote away.
Bernie wouldn't get the black vote for the same reason he won't get any "___ votes". There isn't something inherently about Sanders that drives the black vote away.
That's fine. I only specifically brought up the black vote cause of the topic and you mentioning MLK.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Fair enough, I'm just talking mostly on how and why some Sanders supporters are using these issues.
No, I'm saying that he's mostly only tailoring his message toward white liberals. It's why so many folks didn't know anything about his stances and his past. It's also why he comes off as thinking that racism will be solved purely by fixing the economy. If he actually bothered trying to address black folks personally maybe this whole event would have never even happened.
Dude Abides
Banned
Yep. When you say shit like "they've got a lot of homework to do" it really comes off as smug.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
My issue with all of this is that, by and large, Sander's policies line up pretty well with what the BLM people are demanding (notice I specifically said BLM, not the black community. It's not necessarily fair to the black community to say BLM speaks for them when something like this ends up happening). Yet because he isn't specifying the black community explicitly, that somehow means he's not in support of them?
That doesn't make any sense. Also while I really don't want to use any anecdotal reasoning here (especially the dreaded "well I'm this ethnic group/part this ethnic group and since I don't have an issue here it's okay" bullshit),I took an online poll (actually a pretty long and involved one) to see which candidates you'd match up with best. I got Bernie Sanders at...98%.
So yeah, I'm hoping he's the pick for the Dems.
That doesn't make any sense. Also while I really don't want to use any anecdotal reasoning here (especially the dreaded "well I'm this ethnic group/part this ethnic group and since I don't have an issue here it's okay" bullshit),I took an online poll (actually a pretty long and involved one) to see which candidates you'd match up with best. I got Bernie Sanders at...98%.
So yeah, I'm hoping he's the pick for the Dems.
No, no, no, you're doing it wrong. You see, there's something inherent that drives the black vote away! Or something...
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's amazing how similar to Sanders his supporters are: instead of listening, they ignore.
I'm listening, I just don't understand the condescending viewpoint you're putting out there.
A Link to the Past
Banned
There's really nothing to say beyond "wow, you've been like one of the most condescending people on either side in this thread."
After reading around this subreddit, I have to say that it's pretty good. The majority of the folks on there actually seem to be listening and understanding why this situation happened. It's a far cry from many of Sanders supporters in this thread.
It was an invitation to explain the position you've adopted better, not to derail the thread with ad-hom.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Sorry, let me use you as inspiration. *ahem*
Allow me to sum up this thread
1. People who agree with me are right
2. People who disagree with me are not right
I don't know what's worse - that you so often act unreasonable, or that you don't understand how unreasonable you are.
Allright, man. I've followed your posts in other threads and you always seem like you're up for a fight instead of a discussion, so engaging you directly was clearly a mistake. Have fun.
To be fair,in your olive branch, you called his viewpoint "condescending". Probably not the best way to start a dialogue.
A Link to the Past
Banned
People who want a dialogue don't sum up those who disagree with them in the ways that you have in this thread. Again: you're not the shining beacon of good Sanders supporters.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
This. This 100 times.
makingmusic476
Member
To those who think Sanders has been deficient in his handling of racial inequality, can you provide some specifics as to how he's handled this issue poorly? Can you point to 1. policies you think he should be supporting that he's not, 2. things he should be saying/addressing that he's not, and 3. the ways in which he's saying things or presenting his views that you find lacking?
I'm in the camp that's pretty confused by the accusation, and I've yet to see the problem clearly described in this thread despite having read virtually all of it. Either that or I missed it.
There've been some accusations that people like me have been ignoring the points made by those calling him out, but, at least in my case, that hasn't been the case (or wasn't intentionally the case).
I'm in the camp that's pretty confused by the accusation, and I've yet to see the problem clearly described in this thread despite having read virtually all of it. Either that or I missed it.
There've been some accusations that people like me have been ignoring the points made by those calling him out, but, at least in my case, that hasn't been the case (or wasn't intentionally the case).
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