Whoah. What are you suggesting?
Forza Motorsport 6 has "wet weather, 3D puddles and night races" + more
- Thread starter Steverulez
- Start date
Whoah. What are you suggesting?
soundscream
Member
Mascot has been harping on Dan long before PC was even an idea. It's part of his DNA.
SkinnerSw33t
Member
Comment was lighthearted. My bad if it didn't read that way.
On the flipside, I've also written poems about him. And he even mentioned my (expertly shopped) King Leonidas avatar in an interview once.
No worries!
SkinnerSw33t
Member
But I am going to find a way to fit "gritty racing canvas" in at work today.
FunkyDealer
Banned
So, texture filtering. Do we know if it's improved from Forza 5/Horizon 2? It's one of my few graphical complaints on those games.
We must all admit that as Forza Fans, we know what's best for the franchise and will hate Beardawalt until he listens to our high demands which are "really quite simple and should have been put in Forza 3, let alone 6!"...
...but we'll buy it anyway in hopes they listen next time.
SkinnerSw33t
Member
I'm part of the problem. Probably the filthy casual that T10 is catering to.
Although I wouldn't mind qualifiers, lap count customization, pitting and so on, I don't really care if it's not there.
Although I wouldn't mind qualifiers, lap count customization, pitting and so on, I don't really care if it's not there.
Same. Project Cars taught me that it's more fun to skip qualifying and race at 1% lap count lol. I can't stand races over ~4 laps. The AI in PCars isn't really challenging though so once you get into first it's easy to keep it as long as you don't crash.
Practice laps being in is good though. Being able to adjust tuning setups prior to a race is good.
Unbeatable drivatars put up a good fight. I lose to them more often than I win unless I'm doing x class races in the E21.It's the same with Forza
I find the drivatars in FM5 less of a challenge than PCars AI at 100%, although the AI in PCars is pretty unbalanced, and some cars and tracks they are rubbish at.
I don't like the whole 3-4 lap sprint thing in FM, I get that they do it for the casuals, but is the option to have longer races so much to ask?
I found the drivatars only pretty tough till you got past them. Then it was always a pretty lonely and boring race.
Yeah those sprint races suck... They're ok to slowly get into the game, but then racelength should go up. I'm not asking for an hour race, but why not a 15-20 minute race later on?
Also I feel that those short races lead to more aggressive drivatars as people try to get in front as fast as possible.
This actually gave me a fun idea. I want to clock unbeatable AI around the ring vs PCars 100% AI around the ring to see who puts up faster laps. Brb. What cars should I use? Audi's LeMans cars?
I think I'll do two races on each. One race just sitting at the line and one race competing with the AI (rubberbanding?).
Edit2: Forza is being stubborn lol.
PCars results were:
7:06.969 fastest lap (McLaren P1)
7:23.164 slowest lap (McLaren P1)
Forza 5 results:
6:59.606 (McLaren P1) (Not a one-make race, fastest car was 6:49.986 [#007 Aston DBR9] and slowest was [#4 Corvette ZR1] Racing car @7:21.379)
I think I'll do two races on each. One race just sitting at the line and one race competing with the AI (rubberbanding?).
Edit2: Forza is being stubborn lol.
PCars results were:
7:06.969 fastest lap (McLaren P1)
7:23.164 slowest lap (McLaren P1)
Forza 5 results:
6:59.606 (McLaren P1) (Not a one-make race, fastest car was 6:49.986 [#007 Aston DBR9] and slowest was [#4 Corvette ZR1] Racing car @7:21.379)
This is a great point, the whole credit / xp progression system means that it's always a rush to 1st by the first corner.
Interesting, look forward to the results, I'd probably try a three teir test, a road car, a tintop racer (GT3?) and a Prototype.
soundscream
Member
Project Cars AI has been cheating in my carrer.
Hydranockz
Member
I really enjoy watching Empty Box's simracing videos but I don't know enough about cars to actually commit to playing those games myself. Forza always kind of felt like the bridge between completely casual experiences and simracing. It's kind of funny, I only play in cockpit view now but I stilt for the life of me not grasp how to properly utilise manual gears.
FM5 did feel like I was looking for too much. When races are 3 laps long, I can't climb 12 positions in as clean a manner as I'd like to. I never really dove into custom games to set races to be around 20 minutes long because there is just so many races to do in the single player that I'm still working through it.
FM6 looks to be far better in that sense, at least in my eyes.
FM5 did feel like I was looking for too much. When races are 3 laps long, I can't climb 12 positions in as clean a manner as I'd like to. I never really dove into custom games to set races to be around 20 minutes long because there is just so many races to do in the single player that I'm still working through it.
FM6 looks to be far better in that sense, at least in my eyes.
You know... I'm kinda surprised that with all the debate surrounding AI difficulty between games, that I've never seen this done before.
Are you personally noticeably faster/slower in one game over the other when driving the same cars?
Something that might skew things is the way PCars simulates alternating track temps for weather and TOD, where as I think FM5 is static, and optimal.
I'd also say that tyre simulation, heating and wear, are noticeably different in PCars.
Still, they aren't a million miles away from each other, which considering the differences between the games is quite interesting.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I think, I am too. I'm pedantic about simulating real live tech and physics, but I don't like driving (modern) race cars in video games much and I rarely watch Formula 1. In endurance races I usually NEED a replay because my lap times are way too inconsistent, also I either start pushing too hard or get bored after 15 minutes. Starting as last and having to go for a podium finish within 2-3 laps isn't a great experience for me either, but I bet FM6's new campaign-mode won't have much of that anymore.
The thing I love the most about Forza (and GT) is to get the feeling of a track day in legendary cars and thinking "wow, so this is how that car feels like, this is what that suspension does to the handling, this is how that sounded". The biggest problem for me is that in online races EVERY car is upgraded, so to be competitive I need to start upgrading cars as well, which ruins the "mastering this legendary car" feeling, because now I've changed how that car handles and basically made it into a different car. I love being able to upgrade cars, don't get me wrong, but I wish there was a bigger focus on non-racing stock cars.
There are so many different types of players, it must be really hard to cater to all of them, but making FM a Project CARS -like racing sim with Forza physics and Forza car-count would lower sales by alienating casuals(and painters and stunt guys and "let my dad drive his old NOVA SS on Laguna Seca with full assists"-people) and in return lower the quality(in some aspects at least), the amount of content and FM's competitiveness on the market. Turn 10 probably has a good picture of what their players like and do a lot; full animated pit-crews is probably far, far on the bottom of their to-do list.
That being said... sure, there are things that should be easy to build into the game as an option and you wonder why Turn 10 isn't doing it while putting resources into car bowling instead (some of GT's coffee break challenges are kinda cool though). It often feels like FM does an amazing job at sucking casual players into car culture and motorsport, transforming them into non-casuals and then making the next FM-installment just better at transforming casuals instead of also giving the new not-casual-anymore what they made them want. Then again... even though every fan is constantly bickering about a multitude of things, FM has been a great game in every installment so far and I don't see myself stopping to buy into it anytime soon (pre-ordered ultimate edition last month btw).
edit to avoid a 2-in-a-row post:
Yea, you should definitely include some good(not perfect-best you can do, no pressure) lap-times of your own in those cars for comparison to give a picture of how much is differences in car/track differences between games and how much might be because of A.I. difficulty. I also think that the P1 is pretty broken in both games, especially because of KERS and DRS but also because of torque vectoring not well simulated.
Forza 5 takes place at 6:45 AM in overcast, and doing a race at 7 AM in overcast is a good match on PCars. I tried to put up my best times on both but the P1 is problematic and I couldn't put up clean laps with my setup. I had the AI drive the ring for me in 7:09 in PCars and I couldn't get close in F5 lol. With rewind I managed a 7:30 lap but the stock P1 feels like driving on marbles.
If the controls were better in PCars I'm pretty confident I would put up better lap times. It's a lot grippier.
Agree, FM5 feels like driving on ice by comparison.
I tried FM6 at Gamescom yesterday! 4 laps with the Volvo S60 Polestar, the 250 GTO, the TTS and the Formula Ford.
Technically, I noticed some foliage pop-up when driving in bumper cam, and the aliasing was also quite visible - although that could be due to the setup (standing a few centimeters away from a non-calibrated TV doesn't help!). And the usual 30fps mirror reflections, but that was expected.
Beside this, I was impressed; Rio looks great (and the track itself is well designed), the rain looks and feels amazing, and overall the game is gorgeous, with 24 cars on track and not a single frame dropped. The AI/Drivatar seems much less aggressive than in FM5 (although I don't remember which AI level was set for the demo).
Racing in the wet or at night is obviously a big change in terms of gameplay, but I also love the fact that it's bringing variety to the atmosphere and environments. With different lighting and effects, the game just does not look the same, a bit like the variable time of day in FM4 - but a (big) step further. Diversity is always nice.
Also, all units were equipped with Elite controllers, but without the paddles, uh!
The d-pad felt really great (although useless in Forza), and it was very comfortable (excellent grip). Nice piece of tech, I wouldn't pay 150$ for it though.
Oh and the in-race symphonic music is back. I couldn't care less (first thing I switch off), but I know some people care...
Also it seems like the loading times haven't improved. I guess we can't have everything!
And I saw HeliosT10 on stage
nice performance with your lap around Rio in 2m31s, with all the crowd watching you
Technically, I noticed some foliage pop-up when driving in bumper cam, and the aliasing was also quite visible - although that could be due to the setup (standing a few centimeters away from a non-calibrated TV doesn't help!). And the usual 30fps mirror reflections, but that was expected.
Beside this, I was impressed; Rio looks great (and the track itself is well designed), the rain looks and feels amazing, and overall the game is gorgeous, with 24 cars on track and not a single frame dropped. The AI/Drivatar seems much less aggressive than in FM5 (although I don't remember which AI level was set for the demo).
Racing in the wet or at night is obviously a big change in terms of gameplay, but I also love the fact that it's bringing variety to the atmosphere and environments. With different lighting and effects, the game just does not look the same, a bit like the variable time of day in FM4 - but a (big) step further. Diversity is always nice.
Also, all units were equipped with Elite controllers, but without the paddles, uh!
The d-pad felt really great (although useless in Forza), and it was very comfortable (excellent grip). Nice piece of tech, I wouldn't pay 150$ for it though.
Oh and the in-race symphonic music is back. I couldn't care less (first thing I switch off), but I know some people care...
Also it seems like the loading times haven't improved. I guess we can't have everything!
And I saw HeliosT10 on stage
nice performance with your lap around Rio in 2m31s, with all the crowd watching you wowbaggerBR
Member
I am the type of person Turn 10 wanted to attract when Forza Rewards was made.
When I found out about the Rewards System last year, I spent 2 months doing nothing but finishing Forza 2, 3, 4 and Horizon before I decided to get an Xbox One.
And even after I got one, I still spent another 5 days doing 75 laps of Nissan Speedway on Forza 2 for the 1,000,000 Online Credit Achievement (bought a 2nd copy of the game and used downstairs old 360 to idle while I raced).
Now I'm sitting at 11,920 of the possible 12,000 points (Turn 10 owe my 70 points they ain't recognized yet and the Auction in Forza 2 stops me from 100%)...
...so Turn 10 can make the games more sim-like as an option...I only play the games for the Rewards Points anyway.
I tried FM6 at Gamescom yesterday! 4 laps with the Volvo S60 Polestar, the 250 GTO, the TTS and the Formula Ford.
Technically, I noticed some foliage pop-up when driving in bumper cam, and the aliasing was also quite visible - although that could be due to the setup (standing a few centimeters away from a non-calibrated TV doesn't help!). And the usual 30fps mirror reflections, but that was expected.
Beside this, I was impressed; Rio looks great (and the track itself is well designed), the rain looks and feels amazing, and overall the game is gorgeous, with 24 cars on track and not a single frame dropped. The AI/Drivatar seems much less aggressive than in FM5 (although I don't remember which AI level was set for the demo).
Racing in the wet or at night is obviously a big change in terms of gameplay, but I also love the fact that it's bringing variety to the atmosphere and environments. With different lighting and effects, the game just does not look the same, a bit like the variable time of day in FM4 - but a (big) step further. Diversity is always nice.
Also, all units were equipped with Elite controllers, but without the paddles, uh!
The d-pad felt really great (although useless in Forza), and it was very comfortable (excellent grip). Nice piece of tech, I wouldn't pay 150$ for it though.
Oh and the in-race symphonic music is back. I couldn't care less (first thing I switch off), but I know some people care...
Also it seems like the loading times haven't improved. I guess we can't have everything!
And I saw HeliosT10 on stage
Ha thanks, was more nervous yesterday but still managed at 2m32
I try and keep at least one AI car in front of me in case they do something entertaining like blow through one of the tire stacks for example. Noticed your comment about loading times, those are much reduced in the full game I'm pleased to say.
soundscream
Member
Are the helmets customizable Helios?
So...I wont have time to make a sandwich in the loading times no more?!
Darn,Turn 10 watching out for my eating habits.
This is great news, forza 5 loading can be bit too much at times.
This is really perplexing. The infrastructure is already there and I don't think you'll scare off many "casual" players by offering the option of qualifying laps or lap sliders.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I just *tried* to replicate your experiment in GT6, but there is no McLaren P1 in that game, so I went for a Zonda R'09 (IRL McLaren said the P1 did the Nordschleife in under 7:00 minutes and the Zonda R is booked at 6:47).
Gran Turismo 6 best lap results with A.I. on "Professional" and Attutide at "10/10", Nordschleife at 23°C:
1. Zonda R (630pp, 748hp): 6:48.449 (and that was far from being a good lap on my part)
2. BMW McLaren F1 GTR (630pp, 585hp): 6:59.23
3. Oreca Audi R8 LMS (586pp, 560hp): 7:16.649
... slowest:
1993 Nissan CALSONIC Skyline GT-R (554pp, 542hp): 7:40.987
Forza Motorsport 2 was the last, true, simulation aimed Forza game to come out.
FM2 tried very hard to give us racing game lovers what we wanted. The game is surprisingly very well rounded in terms of content, and actually gave you very little options to deviate from the challenge that the game presented, compared to FM4, and FM5.
The career races were the type that basically made you stick it out or not bother with them. I've been playing the gave as of recently, and I've just come to notice how much more flushed out the career races are compared to all other FM games. It goes all the way into endurance races, which all the other FM games up to FM5 have lacked.
In terms of leveling up your driver, it had actual meaning in FM2, but that is not to say that it was well executed in the game. I honestly despise having to unlock certain cars, and would rather have an open end system with changes.
I'm mentioning these things because I feel like something caused Turn 10 to shift their focus from the no-forgiveness simulator, to hand holding FM3-FM6. It is interesting that their focus from FM2-FM3 somewhat shifted during the Mattrick times of the Xbox division, so that may have definitely had a play in the decisions that Turn 10 has made with the FM series (Look at the Kinect driving in FM4)
The FM community scolded Turn 10 for removing some of the otherwise brilliant content that FM2 had in it. Examples like, removing custom user lobbies and the likes, removing Forza Motorsport TV (This right here was absolutely awesome, and when I used to watch the tournaments, it showed that T10 actually gave a damn about racing experience.), Race Rear Bumpers, which in hand, turned any regular street car into a bad-ass machine with a diffuser on the back (if you don't know what I'm talking about, check this out. Race Rear Bumper on a 2004 Civic Type R). Turn 10 also removed smaller things like the ability to paint calipers (small, but I like to customize nearly everything on my cars, which is mainly the reason why I miss the race diffuser.) From FM2 to FM3, they removed sound changes from exhaust upgrades, and then T10 got ripped a new ass, and they put it back in FM4.
They also removed tuning garage cars, and they have yet to return to the FM series. Cars like the RE Amemiya
, AB Flug RX7, and various Tommy Kaira cars.
It's just frustrating to go back to this game and just notice how well of a path Turn 10 was paving in terms of giving a raw racing feel in terms of content, but now they are catering to bring the casual audience in, and like you have said, I was hoping for Forza Horizon would be the one to keep the casual audience, but it seems like Turn 10 doesn't really aim to bring in the same features that keeps me going back to Gran Turismo for. Tuning garage cars, rolling start races, pit strategy (Now that T10 has proper animators, to not have proper pit crew and strategy is inexcusable.).
Forza 2 was such an enthusiast aimed game. It had ZERO gimmicks to it; it was just race or don't race, and that's what I'm missing.
Sorry for the long rant, I'm frustrated with Turn 10.
It seemed for a few moments that Turn 10 was actually trying with FM4, but it just ended up being sort of a dud, for me. They started to listen to the community and brought back a bunch of the features that they removed from FM2, but the damage was done.
Spaceman Spiff
Member
Eh, ideally Forza Motorsport would incorporate the aspects of a proper race weekend and be more than just a name, but we're at the sixth installment of the series and so far it hasn't happened.
To be honest, though, I've never played these games for their motorsport credentials, (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered amirite), but for the simple fact that I like cars and want to experience as many of them as possible. Forza's continued catering to the car collector crowd is fine by me, especially considering that racing gamers are spoiled for choice, irrespective of platform. The automotive scene is simply too diverse for any one game to do it justice, and one title's weakness will invariably be another's strength. There's an embarrassment of riches out there; best enjoy the wealth.
Fake edit: pleased to see the return of 2D crowds, if only for the inevitable wailing and gnashing of teeth among screenshot comparison jockeys. Frankly, anyone who cares that much about the rendering of the spectators in a racing game has their priorities out of whack.
To be honest, though, I've never played these games for their motorsport credentials, (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered amirite), but for the simple fact that I like cars and want to experience as many of them as possible. Forza's continued catering to the car collector crowd is fine by me, especially considering that racing gamers are spoiled for choice, irrespective of platform. The automotive scene is simply too diverse for any one game to do it justice, and one title's weakness will invariably be another's strength. There's an embarrassment of riches out there; best enjoy the wealth.
Fake edit: pleased to see the return of 2D crowds, if only for the inevitable wailing and gnashing of teeth among screenshot comparison jockeys. Frankly, anyone who cares that much about the rendering of the spectators in a racing game has their priorities out of whack.
They deserve the praise for those elements he brings up
Awesome post and so true!
Great post.
What's frustrating is that it wouldn't take much for FM to offer race-weekend authenticity as an option for those that want it, maybe hidden behind some 'hardcore' tab on the menu. Having practise sessions but no qualifying is borderline trolling..!
I don't get as worked up about it as I used to, simply because Project CARS is now scratching that particular itch. For years though Race Pro and Shift were the only 360 alternatives. Now that other options exist on Bone and PS4 I guess any reasons to deviate from the FM blueprint are no longer as important to motorsport fans. I'll always be sad that the traditional Turn 10 polish and car roster isn't yet available in a true motorsport sim though.
Real edit: the 2D crowds NEVER bothered me in FM5. They're a great solution to free up triangles.
- Forza 2's Race Focus and Online Features.
- Forza 3's Season Play (Was better than 4's World Tour because it gave you a Whole Event to do, not just 1 of the races before you move on).
- Forza 4's Time of Day Variations and Reverse Track Configs (seriously, why was this not in Forza 5? It's just reversing the track...)
- Forza 5's Graphics.
- Night Racing and Rain.
I'll take my cheque now, Turn 10.
- Forza 3's Season Play (Was better than 4's World Tour because it gave you a Whole Event to do, not just 1 of the races before you move on).
- Forza 4's Time of Day Variations and Reverse Track Configs (seriously, why was this not in Forza 5? It's just reversing the track...)
- Forza 5's Graphics.
- Night Racing and Rain.
I'll take my cheque now, Turn 10.
JackAubrey
Member
I don't expect Forza to be an uber-detailed motor-racing sim. It's a mass market game. I get that. I'd be happy with the addition of a simple optional qualifying sessions as has appeared earlier in the series.
One gripe with FM5 - a game I do really like - was that T10 cared so little about the racing that you couldn't see the results of the race afterwards. Though like many things that might just be down to the game having to ship earlier than expected than a deliberate design choice.
One gripe with FM5 - a game I do really like - was that T10 cared so little about the racing that you couldn't see the results of the race afterwards. Though like many things that might just be down to the game having to ship earlier than expected than a deliberate design choice.
SkinnerSw33t
Member
I'll take your word for it. I want to try it, but I won't buy the XB1 version in the state it's still in, and I don't own a PS4 yet.
thanks much for the info!
come on T10... OPTIONS to play however the hell we want to please
They do...in custom races.
I will never complain about their event laps because its how they want the Career Mode to go.
I honestly see little issue in Turn 10 deciding how many laps their Career Events should have, especially when we are getting endurance races added.
...now if the game had an actual career with tables and leagues, that could be different...but right now, with their "History of Motorsport" or whatever they are doing, I don't mind it.
Jamesways
Member
Well, while we're harping on the motorsport aspects of FM, I'll echo the same things I've been complaining about for years with this series... the use of racing licenses.
The R class groupings, while fine in terms of matching performance, just don't make much sense realistically. You've got cars from different years and different series that would never race each other on tracks they would never run on.
I guess it's cool as a hypothetical situation to see how a Super GT car fares against FIA GT and Aussie V8 entry but it's stretching a bit too far into the "they're all race cars, so just pretend they all belong together".
Sometimes it borders on the silly. Remember when the Indy car entries gave Audi a run for their money at LeMans in real life? Yeah, I don't either. Or F1 against LMP cars?
You spend all this money to get these licenses and they're never complete. Aussie V8s? Great, now where's the tracks they race on? ALMS, cool, but not all the current year and only 4 of the official 10 tracks in FM4.
Maybe FM6 will fix that, have more of the R class cars race in series that make sense. Seems like they have a good WTCC and IMSA lineup going.
I know most people don't really care, and a smattering of race cars all lumped together is just fine. I'd just like to see their motorsport focus a bit more authentic with the correct tracks and cars, not to mention the qualifying and pit strategy as people have mentioned.
But like Mascot said, I have pCARS for that motorsport sim fix now. But it's still impossible to use any game to completely mimic the GT racing I like to follow in real life, and the market is too niche now to ever get a sim based on a specific series.
That's a bummer.
But hey, Pretendracecars says Polyphony is making an official FIA GT3 sim so we'll see.
The R class groupings, while fine in terms of matching performance, just don't make much sense realistically. You've got cars from different years and different series that would never race each other on tracks they would never run on.
I guess it's cool as a hypothetical situation to see how a Super GT car fares against FIA GT and Aussie V8 entry but it's stretching a bit too far into the "they're all race cars, so just pretend they all belong together".
Sometimes it borders on the silly. Remember when the Indy car entries gave Audi a run for their money at LeMans in real life? Yeah, I don't either. Or F1 against LMP cars?
You spend all this money to get these licenses and they're never complete. Aussie V8s? Great, now where's the tracks they race on? ALMS, cool, but not all the current year and only 4 of the official 10 tracks in FM4.
Maybe FM6 will fix that, have more of the R class cars race in series that make sense. Seems like they have a good WTCC and IMSA lineup going.
I know most people don't really care, and a smattering of race cars all lumped together is just fine. I'd just like to see their motorsport focus a bit more authentic with the correct tracks and cars, not to mention the qualifying and pit strategy as people have mentioned.
But like Mascot said, I have pCARS for that motorsport sim fix now. But it's still impossible to use any game to completely mimic the GT racing I like to follow in real life, and the market is too niche now to ever get a sim based on a specific series.
That's a bummer.
But hey, Pretendracecars says Polyphony is making an official FIA GT3 sim so we'll see.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I do believe that the stories of motorsport campaign races will win people over, even if it's just a replication of short highlights at the biginning, but
I also think to make a bare-bones customizable length league in free-play with practice-qualifying-race weekends (maybe "pick the drivatars and their cars you want in your league season") would go a long way with people here and the less casual racing crowd. It also doesn't sound very hard to pull off from a game development perspective, that's the biggest issue.
Another thing nobody has mentioned is sending challenges to your friends and other friends list interactions, I mean all kinds of players seem to enjoy the Rivals mode, why didn't they improve that by copying some stuff from Driveclub.
TheAdmiester
Member
Just so you know, the only source of that is a single person's comment on GTPlanet, and PRC is a pretty bad blog for "news" on games. It's all either baseless or biased.
soundscream
Member
Yeah because if what he is saying is true you wount see GT 7 for years. PD making 3 games concurrently..........ok.
PR is actually a specialty of his. So is Physics. So is Martial Arts. So is Comparative Religion. Dan Beardawalt is the great polymath of our time.
except, he forgot to add qualifying to Forza 6
Okay, 1,000 Gamerscore on Forza 5, which puts me at having all the things I can ever get in Forza Rewards (besides the 300 Cars per Game and Forza 5 VIP Car for Forza 6)...
...so time for Turn 10 to fix the Forza Reward Issues I have with Forza 3 and Forza Horizon...
...Guess I can live with 11,925 Reward Points.
...so time for Turn 10 to fix the Forza Reward Issues I have with Forza 3 and Forza Horizon...
...Guess I can live with 11,925 Reward Points.
Yes good points