That makes much more sense and it's quite different to what this thread initially implied. It's a very good design choice and the salt in this thread will only make my future meals tastier.
Super Mario Maker: Not all tools available from the start, unlock over 9 days
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
- Start date
That makes much more sense and it's quite different to what this thread initially implied. It's a very good design choice and the salt in this thread will only make my future meals tastier.
You being forced to wait a day through, which I think that where the complaints are aiming at and for someone that wants to dive in creating stuff I can see that having more ground than someone complaining about something that is optional. Why have the time gate, when they could have just maybe left it with the 5 min requirement, where they be able to unlock the next set of items after testing out with the ones to be used or actually even after they made a level of such with those.
Sword Of Doom
Member
So drip feeding content over nine days will suddenly make someone who is not very creative and doesn't really have the talent to make good levels a good level creator? I don't think so
In games like LBP, I never had any intentions of creating levels but I loved collecting all the items in the bubbles from the campaign even though I knew I would never use them. With Mario Maker, for people like me who like to collect all of the tools, this gives us an incentive to try out the level creator for more than a few minutes. That's the only way I can make sense of it.
Some people might want more than 5 minutes with the existing tools before new ones are even introduced to them, and a time gate makes that possible? I honestly don't think anyone is going to firmly pin down the thought process that led to this fully.
Again, for me, such a thing isn't a concern. For hardcore gamers, it's not a concern. I personally would rather not wait. And an option to remove that would be great. But if I am asked to wait a day, fine, so be it. It's not like this is a piece of software I'll finish using after the first day I bought it anyways. I intend to give this to my nieces for Christmas, so I can make Mario levels for them to enjoy throughout the year.
Besides, until we know there isn't a method to leapfrog past this limitation, we're essentially discussing a what-if scenario as fact.
I didn't understand the endless complaints about Splatoon rolling out content over time, and I don't get what's the big deal with this either.
I mean it's 9 days, not a year. Were people planning to get the game on launch day, create 1000 levels in the first 24 hours, and then never touch it again?
I'm not saying it's a brilliant idea or anything, I personally wouldn't have even thought not have everything available immediately. I just....don't get how it's an issue. If I had just gotten the game without reading about this beforehand, I probably wouldn't even notice the new stuff becoming available over time. Or I'd be like "oh I got a new item? Cool."
I mean it's 9 days, not a year. Were people planning to get the game on launch day, create 1000 levels in the first 24 hours, and then never touch it again?
I'm not saying it's a brilliant idea or anything, I personally wouldn't have even thought not have everything available immediately. I just....don't get how it's an issue. If I had just gotten the game without reading about this beforehand, I probably wouldn't even notice the new stuff becoming available over time. Or I'd be like "oh I got a new item? Cool."
I think this decision justifies itself just by the amount of people who have ever designed a platformer level. People are throwing around things like "stop treating us like we´re dumb" but I´m sure more than 90+% of the consumers have never attempted to design a level. Even a lot of people in this thread being offended by this decision have probably never done so and are unable to grasp all the work, knowledge and skills required to pull out a competently designed level.
That people think so high of themselves as to immediately label this as a "dumb" decision and are unable to humble down and think that the most prestigious platform designer may have a reason that escapes them amazes me. For example, I see much talk about the editor itself but very little about the development of the level design skills necessary to pull out something acceptable. Maybe the decision is based in this second aspect instead of on learning how to use the editor itself.
That people think so high of themselves as to immediately label this as a "dumb" decision and are unable to humble down and think that the most prestigious platform designer may have a reason that escapes them amazes me. For example, I see much talk about the editor itself but very little about the development of the level design skills necessary to pull out something acceptable. Maybe the decision is based in this second aspect instead of on learning how to use the editor itself.
Sword Of Doom
Member
What if I work all week and can't play so when the weekend comes I want to sit and spend all weekend diving into Mario Maker and have some fun? The way they're doing this is stupid. I want to be able to unlock all the tools I need without having to play nine days.
If there is no way to manually unlock it, then it it absolutely all three of those things.
Its pointless because it isn't concerned with how proficient you've become at the tools, the unlock is entirely time based. Its arbitrary because whether you put in 5 minutes or 5 hours you will unlock the tools at the same pace. Its stupid because of the other two reasons but also because my videogaming is largely done over the weekends. I get home from work and I'm usually too tired to play games, but I've got hours to kill on Sat/Sun. Which means that I'm compelled to turn on the WiiU even when I have no intention of playing to unlock these tool sets or I wait ~ 1-2 months when they naturally unlock over my weekend sessions.
Obviously, it was done for a reason... but so what? that doesnt mean people must agree with it. Earlier I watched a video detailing the many parts of Destiny that are being completely rebuilt, things that I'm sure had "reasons" at some point. CDPR added an alternate movement option and drastically changed their inventory UI... again, I'm sure the team had reasons for implementing those things they way they did originally.
CaptainGyro
Banned
I'm surprised it took that long for somebody to mention it. I was going to, but I forgot
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
New references will arrive on Thursday, 8/13!
So how many hours have we played destiny to reach a level high enough to enter tge vault of glass?
How much time spent in CoD before you got all perks, attachmentsand weapons?
How many miles did tou drive a Suzuki Swift in Gran Turismo before you could afford a Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec?
ALL games lock away stuff behind playtime!!!!! ITS CALLED INCENTIVE!!
5 minutes per day is the smallest amount of time i have ever heard a game demand for me to spend with it.
Its a GAME - Not photoshop (which btw also takes more than 5 minutes per day in nine days to understand and make something of it)
How much time spent in CoD before you got all perks, attachmentsand weapons?
How many miles did tou drive a Suzuki Swift in Gran Turismo before you could afford a Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec?
ALL games lock away stuff behind playtime!!!!! ITS CALLED INCENTIVE!!
5 minutes per day is the smallest amount of time i have ever heard a game demand for me to spend with it.
Its a GAME - Not photoshop (which btw also takes more than 5 minutes per day in nine days to understand and make something of it)
LTTP but my reaction over this:
Come on guys it's smart. They want people to learn things with a little time. What they don't want is the first days (crucial ones), to be flooded with UGC where everything available is thrown in test templates levels that will ultimately result in uninteresting levels.
Come on guys it's smart. They want people to learn things with a little time. What they don't want is the first days (crucial ones), to be flooded with UGC where everything available is thrown in test templates levels that will ultimately result in uninteresting levels.
A Link to the Past
Banned
No, by day two there will be a ton of focus on the new shit and players who download levels will witness them being horribly overused to the point of fatigue. Piecemealing it can have that effect.
Captain Europe
Member
Not the same at all, this is locked behind days not play time.
Also, I learnt using photoshop by diving in and trying everything out, imagine how dumb it would have been if it locked 90% of its tools on the first day you're using it.
This will totally happen, on the day the water theme gets released, 90% of people will be making water levels. On the day Bowser gets released a lot of levels will have a gazillion Bowsers.
I don't want to get involved in this discussion since I personally don't care either way but you are completely off. If it was locked behind playtime, the new stuff would unlock after the 5 minutes. The real bummer for most people is the fact that no matter how much time you spend playing the game, it won't unlock new stuff until the next day. So it's not really tied to playtime at all.
/edit: Ah well, too slow...
There was no stomach aches mentioned in my post. It was just a self moderation example. Some people can't resist taking a second choccy or more. I know I'm guilty of this. It wasn't even a defence for the system Nintendo has opted for, just a fact that saying people can impose self moderation doesn't mean they easily will.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Let's combine analogies
"Just empty out your fridge, but don't eat too much or else you'll get a stomach ache"
"Just empty out your fridge, but don't eat too much or else you'll get a stomach ache"
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
Lol
No other game suffers that issue. Look at LBP, Trials, Halo's forge, etc. Bad excuse that's been proven incorrect
CaptainGyro
Banned
That's pretty much what the other guy said in one post and then you said in a later post , both of which I disagreed with and thought was ridiculous. I'm not sure how you think just simply saying it for the third time is going to make me think it's not still ridiculous
Your whole point is meaningless anyway because I originally said I would be fine with limited items in levels during the first few days, because shortly afterwards levels with all items will be available for the next couple hundred days. Then Zomba said " won't the first day or so just be blah blah blah?". Who gives a shit, what does that have to do with anything I had just said?
I mean, LBP isn't necessarily an example in your favor. After the first game it got pretty bloated in features and I know many people who just couldn't get behind the game at that point due to how overbearing it was.
Yeah, there will be people who actually make stellar stuff but those take a while to come into fruition (something which will also take a while for Mario Maker regardless), aren't actually from the majority of the player base and I get the constant feeling that the series has never felt as big as it could be since I imagine a lot of people have shied away at it's complexity.
Out of interest, did you miss the part where the game keeps the content locked until you come back to it the next day?
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
The fact that sequels had feature bloat doesn't invalidate the point that LBP's community bad no problems using all the mechanics at hand to create unique experiences. We didn't get mechanics being abandoned just because the full toolset was there from the start...
A Link to the Past
Banned
Well okay, that's a fair point. Unfortunately though, saying that it's ridiculous means nothing. Are you implying that there won't be a lot of focus given to the handful of objects introduced in a day? That when Bill Blasters are added we won't have levels upon levels where the gimmick involves Bill Blasters everywhere?
Shit, imagine what happens when SFX are added. That's going to be an abject nightmare.
Ha, so people are shocked that Nintendo treats them like a child -_- have you seen the most recent offerings on the Wii U or 3DS all of their franchises are moving towards being kid friendly. How much did Skyward Sword hold your hand, it's just Nintendo being Nintendo which is, and has been for a very long time "A COMPANY OUT OF TOUCH WITH THEIR FANS"
I'm an adult, I wasn't overwhelmed with Dark Souls, or Spelunky or Minecraft, or any game for that matter. I think I can handle a few extra options for my Mario level.
I'm an adult, I wasn't overwhelmed with Dark Souls, or Spelunky or Minecraft, or any game for that matter. I think I can handle a few extra options for my Mario level.
No.
I didn't plan to play this game 14 hours the first day - make the most epic level - then never play the game again.
A large chunk of the best levels people went onto make weren't there from the start either just because you had access to the tools that allowed you to make the craziest complexities. You don't become a master designer just by being given a sandbox with endless tools, you have to learn those tools and the more tools you have, the more you have to actually learn. It's easy to look back at LBP in hindsight and assume that since people did amazing shit, it had to have been there all accounted for on day one with all the tools available, but that's not the case.
Mario Maker isn't going to be any different. Even if all the tools were available since the start, there's probably going to be quite some ways to go before we start seeing the "great" courses, limited tools or not.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
But you're somehow going to do just that if Nintendo doesn't hold back your content for you?
Combat Wombat
Banned
I'm a little surprised by all the ire in this thread now that I've caught up with it. Wow.
I get why they're doing this but I'm not a fan of the idea. Why not a traditional unlocking system instead? Give the player a few challenges to unlock new tools. That way everyone gets to play and learn at their own pace.
I get why they're doing this but I'm not a fan of the idea. Why not a traditional unlocking system instead? Give the player a few challenges to unlock new tools. That way everyone gets to play and learn at their own pace.
CaptainGyro
Banned
I'm implying by the second day that there will be enough levels that will utilise all items available and the amount of those levels will be enough to keep me patient and entertained for the day, and that will continue on for the next day etc etc
autoduelist
Member
It's a "very good design choice"?
What?
The mental gymnastics going on in here are ridiculous. There is -nothing- so complex that a person shouldn't be able to learn it at their own pace. A foreign language, calculus, whatever... if a person is capable of learning, processing, and pushing forward, then they should be able to. Artificial time locks - for a level design system, no less - are absurd.
The fact that you only need to play for 5 minutes a day pretty much proves how absurd it is, since that means you can either learn everything in 5 minutes, or that it's completely arbitrary and artificial. Clear, it's arbitrary and artificial.
How do you guys know that the community levels wouldn't have been better overall had they staggered the mechanisms in LBP? I remember during launch window that 60% of the user levels were crap, 30% were trophy levels, and 10% were decent to great.
Why not let Nintendo experiment? Since this model has not been implemented before it is intellectually dishonest to say it won't work.
Why not let Nintendo experiment? Since this model has not been implemented before it is intellectually dishonest to say it won't work.
Captain Europe
Member
It's an issue because uni starts again for me soon and I want to enjoy the game's content on the first day I play it, I don't have time to come back to this every single day. Other people may have other reasons, it's just a dumb decision.
I'm assuming they either want to teach everyone to be a good level designer, or they want to repeat Splatoon's success, just because it worked for Splatoon doesn't mean it'll work for SMM, it's a totally different type of game.
Come on it's not that bad, the handholding in Nintendo games has been made mostly optional after Skyward Sword.
autoduelist
Member
The first levels people design will never be as good as the levels they design once they master the tools.
That's a given.
However, people learn at different speeds. Arbitrary time limits will not help them. Not being able to do things you want to do is frustrating, not educational.
test_account
XP-39C²
Thats a bit of a different issue, isnt it? Some people seem to argue that giving people too many tools at once will lead to many really bad levels to begin with, and 'Enter the Dragon Punch' said that this wasnt a problem with LBP. Nine days is a relatively short period of time, so people will get get all the tools fairly fast anyway. Like you say, it will probably take some time for people to master things, so those nine days wont really change things one way or the other i think.
LordOcidax
Member
Dont see any problem with this... I think is a really cool idea, specially for the kids.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
I'm really curious how locking you out of content for 9 days on a slow drip is going to make you completely change the way you play the game
woopWOOP
Member
Think I'll just fast forward the clock a few days and back.
I get drip-feeding content to slowly get used to it, but here they are just limiting the amount of enemies and objects you can place in an editor. It's limiting creativity and possible stage ideas.
Atleast it'll take a few days before the servers will be stuffed with auto-music playing levels though.
I get drip-feeding content to slowly get used to it, but here they are just limiting the amount of enemies and objects you can place in an editor. It's limiting creativity and possible stage ideas.
Atleast it'll take a few days before the servers will be stuffed with auto-music playing levels though.
MarkMclovin
Member
Yeah pretty much.
From what I remember, Little Bbig Planet didn't last long in my home due to having a lot of tools from the very beginning which then increased as you played along.
This though could teach you to get used to the tools before introducing more. It could have been handled a little better though, like having you play a level later on that uses the new unlocked tools, and then unlocks them in the editor for you to use yourself.
Personally i thrive on constraint. Too many options and i feel an urge to make use of all opportunities at hand. And as we all know - less is often more.
So by limiting the amount of objects at your disposal - you are more likely to create something with a solid foundation that can be expanded upon when you are given more tools.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
This is really unnecessary, yet Nintendo imposes tutorial limitations on their games like this all the time. This time it's a bit extreme though :/
See, that's the problem with this thing. They don't make sure you understand the basic tools. They make sure you spend five minutes with them. That's an important difference.
What they should be doing is provide a tutorial, some kind of guided tour, or task-based challenges to ensure you understand how you can use certain elements, either separately or in combination with others.
Captain Europe
Member
Not sure what games you're playing, but besides Splatoon I have never played a game that locked so much content away behind days. This is exactly the same as locking Smash characters behind days, or locking Mario Kart parts behind days. In fact, I think this backlash is good because I'm afraid they'll actually do this to future entries of the Smash and Mario Kart series.
It has certainly worked for Splatoon, my friends think they're getting all this free content while all that shit is already on the disc.
Misleading thread? What's misleading about the title or OP?
And keep believing everyone will make amazing levels now because they were restricted.
You must understand that less is more and that it's easier to carry an empty cup than one filled to the rim. Nintendo is the Lao Tzu of video game companies.
thesurfshop19
Member
This is both a small deal and absolutely asinine, IMO. If there were either some kind of override or more logical gating criteria, I think we'd be in a much better spot.
Before yesterday, if someone had asked us "what's the best way to have people ease into the tools without overwhelming them?", we probably wouldn't have come up with the actual solution because it's so screwy.
Before yesterday, if someone had asked us "what's the best way to have people ease into the tools without overwhelming them?", we probably wouldn't have come up with the actual solution because it's so screwy.
Enter the Dragon Punch
Banned
I hope Nintendo restricts all non 1-1 elements to paid DLC for your sake then