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[MouldyK]

The database is a load of unreliable shit. The Ocelot arm thingy is especially screwed up in the database from what I remember.

Here?

There was also some controversy over Liquid Ocelot's handling, as the Database makes vague hints in some articles suggesting that Liquid's personality was in control but subsequently contradicting this information saying it was an act all along in other articles. On a related note, although various information was hidden until having a complete player data and save file for Metal Gear Solid 4 to avoid spoilers, some information, such as the revelation that Liquid Ocelot had removed his arm (something that was never revealed nor hinted at until the final battle of Act 5), was shown prior to that despite it being unveiled around the same time as most of the other hidden information and thus being a major spoiler.

 

[Darksol]

4 things of C4 on that tank was probably overkill

 

[Dick Justice]

no it isn't, it made sense of it.

He was really possessed in MGS2, then cut it off because Liquid was too uncontrollable and went for the bananamachines/hypnosis approach.

It's inconsistent with the explanation presented in MGS4, where it's implied that Ocelot was faking it all along, while the database says that he was possessed after MGS1 before cutting it off.

 

[adamsapple]

Yeah guys, post cat photos instead.

Plz post impressions of how well the last-gen version holds up.

 

[PeterLegend]

seems like im having audio issues ?

The stream is super choppy for me, i guess it might be my internet.

But when i watch other streams i get no issues.

 

[Spainkiller]

It's inconsistent with the explanation presented in MGS4, where it's implied that Ocelot was faking it all along, while the database says that he was possessed after MGS1 before cutting it off.

Technically, both explanations are possible. He was The Sorrow's son, after all.

Guns of the Patriots does imply that it was all nanomachines, hypnosis and sweet, sweet drugs, but the possibility of the hand truly having fucked with him before he decided to roll with it to fool The Patriots is still somewhat open.

 

[PLASTICA-MAN]

Plz post impressions of how well the last-gen version holds up.

Graphics are really a pain in the eyese and FPS very choppy even in cutscenes, really sth to avoid if you have current-gen systems.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Did anyone find an archive of Hotline's stream from last night?

 

[sti4thewin]

btw guys my computer just blew up sorry about that

 

[Sub_Level]

4 things of C4 on that tank was probably overkill

Dunno what you're referring to, but in Ground Zeroes you need 3 explosions to destroy tanks\APCs.

It's inconsistent with the explanation presented in MGS4, where it's implied that Ocelot was faking it all along, while the database says that he was possessed after MGS1 before cutting it off.

Yeah. At least Ocelot does the hypnosis thing in MGSV, so if you're playing chronologically at least it's not so jarring.

 

[Ether_Snake]

no it isn't, it made sense of it.

He was really possessed in MGS2, then cut it off because Liquid was too uncontrollable and went for the bananamachines/hypnosis approach.

So he hypnotized himself to be Liquid Snake, but not too Liquid Snake, cause then he'd be too uncontrollable...

 

[MouldyK]

So he hypnotized himself to be Liquid Snake, but not too Liquid Snake, cause then he'd be too uncontrollable...

Yep. Just enough to fool The Patriots into thinking he was Liquid without being Liquid.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So he hypnotized himself to be Liquid Snake, but not too Liquid Snake, cause then he'd be too uncontrollable...

Until MGS4 yeah, he needed to fool the patriots into thinking that he still had control so the AI would trust him atleast a bit. It was when he gained GW and gained a way to topple the AI that he took on the guise of being completely Liquid-

Liquid is and always was a wild card. The Patriots probably had enough info on Ocelot to guess his next movements. So if the Patriot AI is fooled into thinking he's Liquid, then they have no way to guess his next move since he technically should've been dead already.

That's my thoughts on it, anyways.

 

[MouldyK]

Until MGS4 yeah, he needed to fool the patriots into thinking that he still had control so the AI would trust him atleast a bit. It was when he gained GW and gained a way to topple the AI that he took on the guise of being completely Liquid-

Liquid is and always was a wild card. The Patriots probably had enough info on Ocelot to guess his next movements. So if the Patriot AI is fooled into thinking he's Liquid, then they have no way to guess his next move since he technically should've been dead already.

That's my thoughts on it, anyways.

Other way around according to Wiki:

By adopting the persona of Liquid onto his own, Ocelot was able to conduct the full scope of his plans while putting The Patriots into a false sense of security. Big Boss revealed that The Patriots assumed that the persona of Liquid Snake posed little threat to them, due to having dealt with Liquid Snake before during the Shadow Moses Incident. As such, they underestimated Ocelot and adopted a logic of repetition. The Patriots decidedly acted against him with minimal effort, in which Snake served as their main agent due to previously eliminating Liquid Snake in Shadow Moses.

 

[The Silver]

It's inconsistent with the explanation presented in MGS4, where it's implied that Ocelot was faking it all along, while the database says that he was possessed after MGS1 before cutting it off.

the problem with that is it makes no sense why he would ever cut it off for a robot arm if he was just faking the entire time. Actually having Liquid's arm only benefits his charade, him actually being possessed in MGS2 reconcilies everything.

 

[TwoDurans]

Just Metal Gear things...

 

[ponpo]

Yahoo, animal platform.

He found a "bear growls" tape, maybe you can play it from the chopper speaker upgrade to scare enemies lol.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Other way around according to Wiki:

Oh, yeah that's what I meant. Totally what I meant I just....got...nano-machined.

But yeah, basically Liquid already died once so the patriot ai was like 'yeah nah fuck that guy.'

That...that's a better explanation. It also explains why the Patriots sent Snake and Rat Patrol against Liquid before realizing that Liquid actually foiled them

 

[Crossing Eden]

Anyone seen the "metal" outfit?

 

[ponpo]

lol streamer goes to the bathroom and gets invaded at mother base.

Anyone seen the "metal" outfit?

Let's see

 

[MouldyK]

Oh, yeah that's what I meant. Totally what I meant I just....got...nano-machined.

But yeah, basically Liquid already died once so the patriot ai was like 'yeah nah fuck that guy.'

That...that's a better explanation. It also explains why the Patriots sent Snake and Rat Patrol against Liquid before realizing that Liquid actually foiled them

I forgive you. I watched MGS1-4 Movies on Youtube this week (first time I seen the plot really since I have no intention of playing them as they ain't my kind of game) and I thought 75% of the plot in MGS4 was garbage.

But atleast I can inform people about the stupid plot no-one can follow.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Other way around according to Wiki:

That still makes so little sense to me. It requires these computers that can control the entire world at their most basic, and at their most advanced can debate free will with Raiden, to suddenly think of absolutely no other possibilities or contingency plans than "Ocelot is 100% permanently Liquid Snake because of ghost shenanigans, so we don't care that much and will do the same thing."

 

[RoyaleDuke]

Can someone PM me the stream?

 

[RetroMG]

Anyone seen the "metal" outfit?

Yeah, it was on a stream I was watching earlier. I actually thought that maybe it was trying to imply that the player couldn't take Quiet on a mission, and so she was "greyed out." But no. She looked like Metal Mario, but... Metal Quiet.

 

[ponpo]

Can someone PM me the stream?

http://www.hitbox.tv/TotallyNotHotlineBro

It sounded like an FOB mission, but I don't think servers are up. Maybe the game offers some offline invasions of Mother Base since it wasn't an FOB anyway.

 

[Warablo]

Can you play as Raiden in The Phantom Pain?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That still makes so little sense to me. It requires these computers that can control the entire world at their most basic, and at their most advanced can debate free will with Raiden, to suddenly think of absolutely no other possibilities or contingency plans than "Ocelot is 100% permanently Liquid Snake because of ghost shenanigans, so we don't care that much and will do the same thing."

I think they simply underestimated Liquid. Like I mentioned, they simply 'moved' the pieces so Solid Snake would go find him again, they probably didn't expect Liquid to shutdown most of their system. The contingency was Solid Snake, it's just that Solid Snake was too slow to stop him.

 

[Springfoot]

I still say REX's Rail Gun is a fictional weapon that would be totally practical. Rail Guns are actually consistently being worked on nowadays in military R&D.

Criticize the mechs if you want, but the Rail Gun is legit. Also the Arsenal Gears are basically submarines.

I think he was referring to a mobile nuclear launch platform, which the submarines do far more efficiently than an easily detected, slow land-based mech. The fact that a rail gun was part of the launching system was secondary to the idea that it was purpose built to deliver nuclear payloads.

I think it's a situation where Kojima just came up with "walking tank" because it was 1987 and he was only 24 and writing a dumb computer game, but then he was kind of stuck with it because, hey, the series is named after it, so he was stuck making excuses or sidestepping it for the rest of the series.

Basically this. When we were younger, my school friends and I would rack our brains trying to come up with some way to justify the existence of giant military robots (gundams at the time) that wouldn't be outclassed by simple tanks, hoverboats, or ships. Why? Because giant robots are fucking awesome! But the reality is that they're wildly impractical, would break down constantly due to the complexity, and have tons of exposed weak links that more self contained tanks/ships wouldn't suffer from. At a certain point, if you want to have awesome mechs stomping around in your story, you have to hand wave some of those impracticalities and just run with it, which is what Metal Gear does.

Its totally possible to criticize something and enjoy it. Its not binary Amazing/Garbage thing.

I've been a big critic of Metal Gear's narrative stylings for years now. But it also looks like this has the richest, most intuitive game design in the series. I can handle another terrible Kojima-penned story with characters who talk like aliens about THEMES and retcons that make me roll my eyes if the game design is on point.

This made me realize one of the larger issues I have with his storytelling, which is that Kojima often puts whatever THEME he's going for above all else, often to the complete expense of a cohesive NARRATIVE.

You can look at his stories in hindsight and dissect them, separating their constituent parts and analyzing each piece to unravel the thematic message he was trying to convey, but the experience you get from playing (or watching) them in realtime often leaves you scratching your head wondering who the hell let it through the editing room. I'm talking about the kind of weird connections, character actions/motivations, deus ex machina moments, etc. that made people blurt out "what the fuck?" during games like MGS2 and 4.

Characters are often repurposed, with personalities drastically altered to fit the thematic idea he's going for, connections drawn across timelines and titles that feel contrived and don't appear to make much sense, and player character experiences that are frequently unsatisfactory or leave the player feeling ambivalent toward the game they just finished - all of it done to fit the statement he's trying to make at that time.

Now stepping back and looking back on the stories with some distance, dissecting things after the fact and can reveal some genuinely cool and interesting ideas (like everyone's loved, then hated, then loved again MGS2), but Kojima rarely seems to be able to craft a narrative that remains consistent to itself and the history of the fictional world it inhabits, while both being fully enjoyable in the moment and still playing to the thematic idea he wants to illustrate.

To be totally clear, I like what he tries to communicate with his games, and how he tries to get the player to reflect on their own actions and expectations, but I do feel it's still completely valid to criticize his frequently jumbled and confused narrative storytelling.

If you're a Metal Gear Solid fan, you may appreciate the following perspective -
Regarding Venom Snake being The Medic, who is manipulated to believe he's Big Boss, but who also represents the player:
How loyal are you to Big Boss?
Would you have sacrificed your life to save his?
The Medic was to Big Boss what Big Boss was to The Boss.
In retrospect, what was the most heroic deed Big Boss did in his life?
I would argue he falls short of being a true hero in comparison to the Medic, who put his life on the line to save the life of a 'Legend'.
Without the Medic's heroics, Outer Heaven would have been nothing but a dream. The Medic also helped prevent WW3.

This is what I'm talking about above. The theme and concepts at play here are cool and thought provoking in retrospect, but the narrative - the way they're presented - could have been done more artfully. There are ways that this first bolded part (about the Medic being to Big Boss what Naked Snake was to The Boss) could have been shown to or played by the player (even in a tutorial or introductory part of the game establishing a friendly, competitive mentor-like relationship). As it stands right now, I have no real clear picture as to who the Medic was or how deep their relationship ran aside from some cursory background flavor text/audio tapes - he's such a non-character that his existence is easily forgotten without knowing that he's a deus ex machina linchpin later in the story.

Also, I'm not finished with the game yet, but did the Medic actually make that choice? I was under the impression Zero made it for him with Kaz and Ocelot agreeing to keep up the charade, which removes any heroic aspect.

 

[Sub_Level]

Can you play as Raiden in The Phantom Pain?

Yes.

 

[Warablo]

Yes.

Hmm, I wonder if any of his suits carry over if you unlock them in GZ...

 

[Self_Destructive]

This is what I'm talking about above. The theme and concepts at play here are cool and thought provoking in retrospect, but the narrative - the way they're presented - could have been done more artfully. There are ways that this first bolded part (about the Medic being to Big Boss what Naked Snake was to The Boss) could have been shown to the player (even in a tutorial or introductory part of the game establishing a friendly, competitive mentor-like relationship). As it stands right now, I have no real clear picture as to who the Medic was or how deep their relationship ran aside from some cursory background flavor text/audio tapes - he's such a non-character that his existence is easily forgotten without knowing that he's a deus ex machina linchpin later in the story.

Also, I'm not finished with the game yet, but did the Medic actually make that choice? I was under the impression Zero made it for him with Kaz and Ocelot agreeing to keep up the charade, which removes any heroic aspect.

How exactly? It would have had to happen before or during Ground Zeroes. People would have easily been able to see through it had Kojima tried to do something like that.

Remember, the Medic had been a POI throughout the marketing of the game. People thought something was up, and spending time building that relationship even more would have given it away imo. He's supposed to be a nobody character to the player. People need to start putting some thought into things instead of being told everything directly from cutscenes.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Hmm, I wonder if any of his suits carry over if you unlock them in GZ...

From what is known, the Sneaking Suit (and Solid Snake skin if you completed Deja Vu) carry over. No idea if any other skins do.

 

[ponpo]

What's this "battle gear" huey is building

 

[Springfoot]

How exactly? It would have had to happen before or during Ground Zeroes. People would have easily been able to see through it had Kojima tried to do something like that.

Remember, the Medic had been a POI throughout the marketing of the game. People thought something was up, and spending time building that relationship even more would have given it away imo. He's supposed to be a nobody character to the player. People need to start putting some thought into things instead of being told everything directly from cutscenes.

I feel like you're taking an off handed parenthetical idea way too literally. A relationship could have been established one way or another. A tutorial sequence wouldn't have even needed to focus solely on him either (adding misdirection) while still giving him an actual character and making it clear he was close to Big Boss (after all, the story depends on him being close enough to literally become him), but a tutorial sequence isn't even the end-all-be-all way to handle it. However, as it stands, he's a non-character, which is weak from a narrative standpoint (the point I was speaking towards).

You're also coming at this with 20/20 hindsight and seeing any and every indicator as too obvious at this point, and maybe you're one of the elite few who were ahead of the curve and suspected this twist early. But looking at the earlier posts in this thread, the majority of people were completely blown away by the revelation - some to the point of outright denial.

 

[Spainkiller]

From what is known, the Sneaking Suit (and Solid Snake skin if you completed Deja Vu) carry over. No idea if any other skins do.

There's still no official list of what carries over?

I read that the Raiden skin carries over if you've managed to S-rank all missions. Not sure if real, though.

 

[RoyaleDuke]

http://www.hitbox.tv/TotallyNotHotlineBro

It sounded like an FOB mission, but I don't think servers are up. Maybe the game offers some offline invasions of Mother Base since it wasn't an FOB anyway.

Thanks Ponpo, appreciate it.

 

[RetroMG]

Quiet's humming is really annoying when the player has other music playing.

It's actually really annoying anyway.

 

[The Silver]

How exactly? It would have had to happen before or during Ground Zeroes. People would have easily been able to see through it had Kojima tried to do something like that.

Remember, the Medic had been a POI throughout the marketing of the game. People thought something was up, and spending time building that relationship even more would have given it away imo. He's supposed to be a nobody character to the player. People need to start putting some thought into things instead of being told everything directly from cutscenes.

Yeah the Medic isn't supposed to have his own character, he's YOU. We are BB's most trusted man. We are the ones who are to Big Boss what he was to The Boss, we have a deep connection to him that can't be described as fatherly or romantic love. All this time we thought we were in it together with Big Boss, even if he breaks bad at least we'll be standing side be side.

Then it turns out it wasn't the case, he betrays you, YOU/the medic aren't who you thought you were anymore. Big Boss breaks off from you and shatters your perception of him and yourself, probably what he was feeling at the time when The Boss first betrayed him.

 

[Furyous]

Is that an offline FOB invasion? I am happy right now.

 

[ponpo]

Is that an offline FOB invasion? I am happy right now.

FOB isn't set up yet, I think there is a story mission that happens where MB gets invaded and acts a tutorial to FOB.

 

[Crossing Eden]

 

[sti4thewin]

guys im back up on hitbox for the time being

quote me for stream

 

[Crossing Eden]

guys im back up on hitbox for the time being

quote me for stream

Quote this reply.

 

[ponpo]

 

[Self_Destructive]

I feel like you're taking an off handed parenthetical idea way too literally. A relationships could have been established one way or another. A tutorial sequence wouldn't have even needed to focus solely on him either (adding misdirection) while still giving him an actual character and making it clear he was close to Big Boss (after all, the story depends on him being close enough to literally become him), but a tutorial sequence isn't even the only end-all-be-all way to handle it. However, as it stands, he's a non-character, which is weak from a narrative standpoint (the point I was speaking towards).

You're also coming at this with 20/20 hindsight and seeing any and every indicator as too obvious at this point, and maybe you're one of the elite few who were ahead of the curve and suspected this twist early. But looking at the earlier posts in this thread, the majority of people were completely blown away by the revelation - some to the point of outright denial.

You're guilty of the same thing then. You're basing your opinion off the fact that you already know that you play as someone else other than the real Big Boss. Remember, you're to believe you are Big Boss at the beginning of TPP. The signs pointed to the medic being Ishmael... it's what you're supposed to believe to draw suspicion away from the opposite being true. The more you develop the medic character, the more personally identifiable he becomes, and the twist loses it's effectiveness, imo.

Anyways, we'll have to wait until the game is out for a while and the community as a whole has time to really dig into the ideas presented and whether they were handled properly or not.

 

[Spainkiller]

Anyways, we'll have to wait until the game is out for a while and the community as a whole has time to really dig into the ideas presented and whether they were handled properly or not.

God, I wish everyone would adapt this mentality.

 

[SargerusBR]

DD nooooooooooo

Fuck those kids.

 

[PeterLegend]

it's nice watching these early videos but man the bad gameplay with bad players is hard to watch lol

 

[Yabberwocky]

I'm all about getting my green thumb on! (I don't think I'll get anything productive done in this game.)

 

[Springfoot]

You're guilty of the same thing then. You're basing your opinion off the fact that you already know that you play as someone else other than the real Big Boss. Remember, you're to believe you are Big Boss at the beginning of TPP. The signs pointed to the medic being Ishmael... it's what you're supposed to believe to draw suspicion away from the opposite being true. The more you develop the medic character, the more personally identifiable he becomes, and the twist loses it's effectiveness, imo.

Anyways, we'll have to wait until the game is out for a while and the community as a whole has time to really dig into the ideas presented and whether they were handled properly or not.

I'm quite aware that the player is supposed to believe they're playing as Big Boss with the Medic revelation coming as a surprise, but there are ways to do it that work better than others. The Sixth Sense handled this kind of ending twist masterfully and caught the overwhelming majority of audiences off guard while still establishing proper characterization and breadcrumbs along the way to support it.

From what I've experienced so far, there are a few superficial breadcrumbs, but nothing that comes close to explaining how the Medic character was so tight with Big Boss - more than Ocelot, MIller, or any other named character - that he should have been able to literally become Big Boss in everything from skill set to charisma to speech.

At this point we're having a back and forth over an offhanded parenthetical throwaway idea that's tangential to the original point I was making; however, which was about how Kojima's narratives often suffer as a result of his exclusive focus on themes. Though this does tie into my point about his frequent repurposing of characters with drastically altered personalities to fit whatever theme he's focusing on at the moment (which seems to have happened with every major game after 3).

God, I wish everyone would adapt this mentality.

Why are you in a spoiler thread specifically about discussing spoilers in advance of the game's release, then? Not to mention a lot of us already are playing the game and discussing it as we go along.