Support NeoGAF

[Synless]

We might have to, but who wouldn't want the ability to be able to escape for a bit to a world that still contains the soul of your departed loved one? Why destroy that option, especially if the inhabitants have genuine life and consciousness? That option is available to the Painters.

Because it's false. Why not let drug users continue getting fucked because it helps them escape? Why not let let alcoholics continue drinking because it helps them escape? Why not let people believe in their own delusions unchecked so they can escape?

The theme is always the same, it's self destructive and hurts others around them.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Because it's false. Why not let drug users continue getting fucked because it helps them escape? Why not let let alcoholics continue drinking because it helps them escape? Why not let people believe in their own delusions unchecked so they can escape?

The theme is always the same, it's self destructive and hurts others around them.

What is real? I didn't see anything that indicated the Painters or their world were any more "real" than the inhabitants of the painted world. Even if the Painters' World were the ultimate reality, I don't see how that devalues the life and consciousness of their creations.

I don't think the game gave us any reason at all to care about them more than their creations or why we should be in favor of erasing the entire painted world just to save Alicia and her mom (whose destruction wasn't even guaranteed).

 

[Pasta la Vista]

I'm really interested to learn more about the world outside of the canvas. Like what are these people exactly? They seem to be like gods. It seems like the world and entities inside the canvas are like some advanced AI that can reproduce and have some modicum of freewill.

EDIT: I really want to draw a parallel with this game and another in its themes (my favorite JRPG on the PS2, well probably ever) but I'm afraid of spoiling it for people that haven't played that game(s).

 

[calico]

It seems like the world and entities inside the canvas are like some advanced AI that can reproduce and have some modicum of freewill.

Is there any indication that the people of Lumiere have a less than normal irl amount of free will?

There is the normal question about how much free will the creation of a creator can really have, but no more so than exists in major religions which consider people to have free will.

 

[Synless]

What is real? I didn't see anything that indicated the Painters or their world were any more "real" than the inhabitants of the painted world. Even if the Painters' World were the ultimate reality, I don't see how that devalues the life and consciousness of their creations.

I don't think the game gave us any reason at all to care about them more than their creations or why we should be in favor of erasing the entire painted world just to save Alicia and her mom (whose destruction wasn't even guaranteed).

They quite literally tell you what's real, it isn't that false world that tells you in the game will kill you over time. My point stands, it's never healthy to let people live in false realities.

 

[calico]

They quite literally tell you what's real

Who is 'they' and when do they tell us this?

 

[Wilhelm_85]

They quite literally tell you what's real, it isn't that false world that tells you in the game will kill you over time. My point stands, it's never healthy to let people live in false realities.

No, all that we know is that the Painted World is a creation of the Painters. We don't know much about their world and whether or not they are themselves creations of another creator (ultimately they are creations of the game developers, if we want to get super meta here...).

The humans in the Painted World are not portrayed as anything but fully conscious living beings. They behave in the same way as the Painters.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

Is there any indication that the people of Lumiere have a less than normal irl amount of free will?

There is the normal question about how much free will the creation of a creator can really have, but no more so than exists in major religions which consider people to have free will.

Well the set expiration dates on their lives was basically that oppressive force that denied them of their free will in a sense. As opposed to just living their full lives with not knowing when exactly they would die. It was their free will to go out and fight it, though ultimately it seems that they never really had a chance if it wasn't for the existence of Maelle.

 

[Synless]

Who is 'they' and when do they tell us this?

Did you not play the game? It's explained several times the painted world is not real. What you have is a face value on what the game tells us. No theorotical bullshit.

Maelle's vision is in the wrong, that's it. Back to reality she goes.

 

[Jinxed]

He wanted to erase reality for everyone because he was tired. That's pretty "black" if you ask me.

Except it's not reality. It's the same as deleting a save when you're done with a game. Difference is holding on to that save is breaking a real family apart. It was the right thing to do.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Except it's not reality. It's the same as deleting a save when you're done with a game. Difference is holding on to that save is breaking a real family apart. It was the right thing to do.

If video game characters were alive and conscious, then I would feel the same way about deleting "a save." Everything in the game leads us to believe that the painted world is its own reality, populated with living creatures. They even exist independently of their original creator (Painter World Verso, who is dead). The breaking apart of the family is not even necessarily inevitable. They could just get their shit together and stop ignoring their reality in favor of the Painted World.

Either way, we have no reason to believe their layer of existence is the true ultimate reality. I would not typically associate mortality (in the case of Verso having died) with uncreated and eternal consciousness, for example. If they, too, are creations, then how much more valuable are they?

 

[Jinxed]

If video game characters were alive and conscious, then I would feel the same way about deleting "a save." Everything in the game leads us to believe that the painted world is its own reality, populated with living creatures. They even exist independently of their original creator (Painter World Verso, who is dead). The breaking apart of the family is not even necessarily inevitable. They could just get their shit together and stop ignoring their reality in favor of the Painted World.

Either way, we have no reason to believe their layer of existence is the true ultimate reality. I would not typically associate mortality (in the case of Verso having died) with uncreated consciousness, for example. If they, too, are creations, then how much more valuable are they?

The only 'moral' ending would of been to everyone just leaving the canvas and lock it away. Thing is Maelle and the mother are stubborn and the point of the game is moving on from grief.

The fact that there is no good or bad in this game and the possibilities for sequels/prequels makes the game and experience so freaking good. Haven't even explored the writers side. Are they the ones controlling everyone's fate in their writing? Shit is insane

 

[calico]

It's explained several times the painted world is not real.

Then you should be able to point to those times pretty easily?

 

[Synless]

Then you should be able to point to those times pretty easily?

Go find it yourself. I have nothing to prove, your refuting my claim with zero evidence to the contrary.

 

[calico]

Except it's not reality. It's the same as deleting a save when you're done with a game.

It's only the equivalent of that if you decide the game is portraying the Painted people as 'not real' (ie. artificial/simulations/imaginary/etc) in-narrative. I don't see how we can come to that conclusion other than by making a leap in logic from 'they are created' to 'therefore they are not real'.

 

[calico]

Go find it yourself. I have nothing to prove, your refuting my claim with zero evidence to the contrary.

I asked you to substantiate your claim, which evidently -and as I suspected- you cannot.

 

[Yoshichan]

Except it's not reality. It's the same as deleting a save when you're done with a game.

You saw Asmongolds VOD too I guess?

 

[Wilhelm_85]

It's only the equivalent of that if you decide the game is portraying the Painted people as 'not real' (ie. artificial/simulations/imaginary/etc) in-narrative. I don't see how we can come to that conclusion other than by making a leap in logic from 'they are created' to 'therefore they are not real'.

And if you decide that is the case, then like 90% of the story we played through becomes meaningless pretty damn quickly.

 

[Synless]

I asked you to substantiate your claim, which evidently -and as I suspected- you cannot.

Dude, you don't get to jump up and just say prove it with nothing on your end but a challenge. I'm certainly not going to jump through hours of videos trying to find exact quotes because you said 'prove it'. I owe you shit, I'm not wasting another second on your stupid ass.

 

[Jinxed]

And if you decide that is the case, then like 90% of the story we played through becomes meaningless pretty damn quickly.

Not at all. The game is about grief, facing it and moving on.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Not at all. The game is about grief, facing it and moving on.

That's all? The devs made a massively convoluted multiverse just to convey such a simple message? I don't buy it.

And if that's really what it's all about, then I think it's done extremely poorly. If getting over grief means you have to destroy an entire world and all of its clearly sentient inhabitants, then you probably shouldn't get over your grief.

If anything, my takeaway was that trying to force someone to get over their grief and move on can have catastrophic results.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Did you not play the game? It's explained several times the painted world is not real. What you have is a face value on what the game tells us. No theorotical bullshit.

But what does the game tell us about Verso? If we accept that the painted world isn't real, then why should Verso care about anyone? Why should he befriend his companions and work towards earning their friendship? Why should he share uncomfortable truths about himself and help his friends find a sense of closure through completing their side quests? Why does he literally allow himself to be torn in two, all just to make other people smile and brighten their day? Why do all that, if he doesn't think any of any of those people as real?

At face value, after improving his levels of friendship, the game directly tells the player several times that Verso and his party members have developed an unbreakable bond, and that they care very deeply about one another. If that's a lie, and Verso is only using everyone as a means to an end, then he really is this game's villain. But if it's the truth, that means he sees the painted world as real, or at least real enough to care about what happens to the people there. If it's the truth, then at best he contradicts himself, and sacrifices the world for his sister who he loves even more. He knows it's the only way to be sure she doesn't ruin her life.

why do endings have to be happy or not? "Black or white" only exists in fairytales, and a staple sign of great writing is instead representing all the grey areas with the vastly differing viewpoints of the involved characters.
A simple "happy end" would`ve been a very bad fit for this game.

I very much appreciated the shades of grey when it comes to the characters, and I like the idea of the various endings. I just wish there was something I could have done in the game to get an ending where Maelle is given the character development to leave the painting due to her own choice. Even the exact same ending as Verso's ending, but with Maelle choosing it rather than it being imposed upon her would have been enough of a "good" ending for me. And the painting should have been allowed to exist without Maelle's continued influence. With that not being an option, it doesn't feel that there is a "good ending" to me.

Still, the game ends in a way that leaves a lot of posiblity for a DLC expansion or sequel, and that gives me hope that this won't be the last we see of this universe.

 

[Raven117]

The only 'moral' ending would of been to everyone just leaving the canvas and lock it away. Thing is Maelle and the mother are stubborn and the point of the game is moving on from grief.

The fact that there is no good or bad in this game and the possibilities for sequels/prequels makes the game and experience so freaking good. Haven't even explored the writers side. Are they the ones controlling everyone's fate in their writing? Shit is insane

I absolutely fucking love this idea of writers and painters in this broader conflict.

Its such a fun way to interact with art.

 

[Raven117]

That's all? The devs made a massively convoluted multiverse just to convey such a simple message? I don't buy it.

And if that's really what it's all about, then I think it's done extremely poorly. If getting over grief means you have to destroy an entire world and all of its clearly sentient inhabitants, then you probably shouldn't get over your grief.

If anything, my takeaway was that trying to force someone to get over their grief and move on can have catastrophic results.

I didn't take it that way at all. I agree with Jinx.

I thought when Verso was saying basically "the dead are dead. It's not their voices, they are yours". Was it's way of saying that the painted world were echos of the painters subconscious.

It is about grief. Letting go.

And like my post above, I love that this is a discussion at all. This is my favorite game of the generation.

 

[PonyStation4]

Now that a lot of time has changed since finishing the game, I've decided that I prefer the Maelle ending by a lot. I imagine myself in crippling pain being transported to another world like Pokemon. Why does it matter if I die there vs in real life? I get to live my life enjoying it and Maelle seemed content on never seeing her family again. The boy painting is not a real person, it's just a fragment of Verso's soul. When you sit down and think about what's said in the game, Verso's soul would rather the world keep existing than simply fading away to nothing. Painted Verso became jaded and his opinion no longer held any weight over what soul Verso would want.

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

I don't think Verso is dead. I think he defected/is in love with a Writer and what you see at the end (Verso's ending) is inception-y with him dying on the 33rd of December.

I think they are in a stage play created by the Writers to cover Verso while he defects....but who knows if we will actually ever get a follow up. I am totally fine with this being HL2 with nothing after it in terms of a direct sequel...just make satellite stories like Portal and Alex.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

The only 'moral' ending would of been to everyone just leaving the canvas and lock it away. Thing is Maelle and the mother are stubborn and the point of the game is moving on from grief.

The fact that there is no good or bad in this game and the possibilities for sequels/prequels makes the game and experience so freaking good. Haven't even explored the writers side. Are they the ones controlling everyone's fate in their writing? Shit is insane

Can the people inside the canvas continue to exist as free people completely independent from their creators? The Dessendre family leaving the canvas world would be the only sane choice in that case. But I don't think they even discussed this as a possibility. It seems like that's something they couldn't do even if they wanted to.

 

[Danjin44]

Now that a lot of time has changed since finishing the game, I've decided that I prefer the Maelle ending by a lot. I imagine myself in crippling pain being transported to another world like Pokemon. Why does it matter if I die there vs in real life? I get to live my life enjoying it and Maelle seemed content on never seeing her family again. The boy painting is not a real person, it's just a fragment of Verso's soul. When you sit down and think about what's said in the game, Verso's soul would rather the world keep existing than simply fading away to nothing. Painted Verso became jaded and his opinion no longer held any weight over what what soul Verso would want.

The parents finally healing from the pain of losing their son, do expect them just sit down and do nothing while watch their daughter die?

 

[PonyStation4]

The parents finally healing from the pain of losing their son, do expect them just sit down and do nothing while watch their daughter die?

What do you mean watch their daughter die? Renoir was in there for 67 years, time clearly passes differently. She's not going to be in the painting for 5 years then die, she'll get to live a whole lifetime there. A lifetime where she'll be happy, instead of being mute and in pain.

 

[Synless]

But what does the game tell us about Verso? If we accept that the painted world isn't real, then why should Verso care about anyone? Why should he befriend his companions and work towards earning their friendship? Why should he share uncomfortable truths about himself and help his friends find a sense of closure through completing their side quests? Why does he literally allow himself to be torn in two, all just to make other people smile and brighten their day? Why do all that, if he doesn't think any of any of those people as real?

At face value, after improving his levels of friendship, the game directly tells the player several times that Verso and his party members have developed an unbreakable bond, and that they care very deeply about one another. If that's a lie, and Verso is only using everyone as a means to an end, then he really is this game's villain. But if it's the truth, that means he sees the painted world as real, or at least real enough to care about what happens to the people there. If it's the truth, then at best he contradicts himself, and sacrifices the world for his sister who he loves even more. He knows it's the only way to be sure she doesn't ruin her life.


I very much appreciated the shades of grey when it comes to the characters, and I like the idea of the various endings. I just wish there was something I could have done in the game to get an ending where Maelle is given the character development to leave the painting due to her own choice. Even the exact same ending as Verso's ending, but with Maelle choosing it rather than it being imposed upon her would have been enough of a "good" ending for me. And the painting should have been allowed to exist without Maelle's continued influence. With that not being an option, it doesn't feel that there is a "good ending" to me.

Still, the game ends in a way that leaves a lot of posiblity for a DLC expansion or sequel, and that gives me hope that this won't be the last we see of this universe.

Verso is absolutely using everyone in that world to end it. He was painted as an image of a man he would never be. Parts of that man's personality exists and he cares for the group he travels with. However Verso tells Maelle flat out everything he did was to get to that place and send the mom back, setting everything else in motion.

I don't see how a facsimile who knows his soul is endlessly painting and suffering is a villain in a world he knows is fake, including his own existence. He made the right choice to save the real family he knows created him, in a fantasy world created by his real self, person by person he sets them free and then eventually saved himself.

 

[Jinxed]

Can the people inside the canvas continue to exist as free people completely independent from their creators? The Dessendre family leaving the canvas world would be the only sane choice in that case. But I don't think they even discussed this as a possibility. It seems like that's something they couldn't do even if they wanted to.

Maelle did mention it to Renoir, to leave the painting alone, but he said you know how Alice is, she'll find a way to come back to it, there's no other choices.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Can the people inside the canvas continue to exist as free people completely independent from their creators?

Yes. They talked about how they used to play in the painted world as kids, implying that there wasn't a permanent presence on behalf of the family. The original creator, Verso, even died. So it's clear the creation can exist independently of the creator. Alicia even tried to hide the painting so her mom couldn't return to it after they extracted her. She wouldn't do that if the painted world would disappear once they were all out of it.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

Verso is absolutely using everyone in that world to end it. He was painted as an image of a man he would never be. Parts of that man's personality exists and he cares for the group he travels with. However Verso tells Maelle flat out everything he did was to get to that place and send the mom back, setting everything else in motion.

I don't see how a facsimile who knows his soul is endlessly painting and suffering is a villain in a world he knows is fake, including his own existence. He made the right choice to save the real family he knows created him, in a fantasy world created by his real self, person by person he sets them free and then eventually saved himself.

The fact that he could make a choice at all clearly demonstrates that his world was not "fake." Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're using that word, but just because they are creations, does not make them any less real, alive, or conscious.

 

[calico]

I'm certainly not going to jump through hours of videos trying to find exact quotes

Don't bother, they don't exist to find.

 

[calico]

the game directly tells the player several times that Verso and his party members have developed an unbreakable bond

That's a very good point, as it's evidence of the game itself (rather than a character in the game, who could be mistaken or have a conflict of interest) authoritatively telling us the Painted people are capable of forming real relationships with each other. If they are fake/simulations/imaginary/etc. then this meta element of the game is straight up lying to us. Typically we consider those meta elements in media to be statements of fact.

 

[calico]

Can the people inside the canvas continue to exist as free people completely independent from their creators? The Dessendre family leaving the canvas world would be the only sane choice in that case. But I don't think they even discussed this as a possibility. It seems like that's something they couldn't do even if they wanted to.

It seems that only the soul fragment of the original Painter of the Canvas (boy Verso) is required to maintain the Canvas. The other Painters can visit, but their presence is not required.

Centuries have passed (in Canvas time) since they used to play in it as kids, and I think we can reasonably assume there were long spells in the ~20 years (out of Canvas time) where none of the Painters were present in the Canvas.

The family could leave the Canvas entirely, or just visit from time to time - it's only their own drama preventing them doing this.

 

[DarkBatman]

We might have to, but who wouldn't want the ability to be able to escape for a bit to a world that still contains the soul of your departed loved one? Why destroy that option, especially if the inhabitants have genuine life and consciousness? That option is available to the Painters.

Again, I have to agree. But Maelle (or rather, her mother, for that matter) shows that "a bit" quickly becomes "forever"; both body and soul cannot accept a permanent stay in the painting without losing yourself. The whole point of the painting is to avoid having to say goodbye to the lost people. Why should I leave them after "a bit?" That would negate the entire reason.

At the end, Maelle confidently says that she can leave the painting at any time and will do so, which Verso coldly exposes as a complete lie. They both know that Maelle has no reason to return to the real world, as she has to face the truth here. Her family is broken, her face is disfigured, her brother is dead. But things won't get any better if she gradually wastes away in a dream world and doesn't seize the opportunity to mend the broken parts of her family.

 

[LegendOfKage]

That's a very good point, as it's evidence of the game itself (rather than a character in the game, who could be mistaken or have a conflict of interest) authoritatively telling us the Painted people are capable of forming real relationships with each other. If they are fake/simulations/imaginary/etc. then this meta element of the game is straight up lying to us. Typically we consider those meta elements in media to be statements of fact.

Maelle's ending is another strong indicator of free will. Not only does Verso's free will eventually lead to him wanting to be erased from the painting, as W Wilhelm_85 mentioned above, but he's clearly uncomfortable and being controlled in her ending. If he had no free will, he wouldn't be upset with the situation. He would do exactly as she wants, and he would want everything she wants. It suggests that Maelle is forcing her control over the situation, and overriding the free will that the people there would naturally have. At the very least, we're given a strong inidcator that she's starting to do so in some cases. She is likely past the point of caring about the feelings of others, which is probably a result of her being in the painting for too long. Verso is right that she needs to leave, but it's sad that he forces that action upon her and ends the painted world to do so.

The fact that he could make a choice at all clearly demonstrates that his world was not "fake." Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're using that word, but just because they are creations, does not make them any less real, alive, or conscious.

That's a very good point as well. Just the fact that Verso wants the painting to end at all is proof that he's his own individual creation with his own thoughts, desires, feelings, and opinions. If free will, independent thought, and the ability to reason are the arguments for intelligent life, the people in the painted world have all of those qualities.

 

[manlisten]

"Life keeps forcing cruel decisions"

*2 minutes later…*

 

[FoxMcChief]

I chose Verso. It's the logical choice for the bad situation. It was time for Maelle to grow up and move on. And she needed a push.

Maelle's ending is basically this:

 

[Punished Miku]

Finished the main quest, not endgame stuff. Definitely a super cool ending.

Story: I loved the game, but I don't think it's perfect. Felt like I was playing the fantasy version of Lost. I've never played a game with such a lack of story for 99.9% of the game. Up until literally the very, very end there was literally nothing of substance happening really. They have 1 fantastic cutscene at the beginning and that was really it. They set up the whole intro getting to know all the teammates, their hopes and fears, their preparation, the town hoping for their success, then they land on the beach in Normandy and get annihilated. It's effective and an amazing intro. Pretty much everything after that was just vague mystery box crap. No answers on anything substantial, no story revelations. Just the usual JJ Abrams special. What are the mysterious islanders doing on Lost? Find out next week, maybe, but probably not. Over and over. And don't get me wrong, I actually loved Lost for most of it. It truly is a great show at building up the mystery, reveling in the suspense and intrigue, and stringing you along the way. This game wasn't quite as good at that, but I was still wondering what the mysterious number is and what the hell is going on. When I landed at the monolith I was pretty excited to see the giant paintress and wondering what was up. Then the monolith was just a lot of nothing. Just recycled areas from the rest of the game with a few new enemies. The paintress boss fight wasn't that great, and wasn't as insanely cool as the Arkhon of Wonder. I was at this point feeling pretty let down with the paintress who just seemed like a dementia patient run amok. The whole damn world is ruined over one family squabble? Lame. Felt like Lost in the final season falling apart. Great casting, great characters, great moment to moment acting, but overall story shitting the bed.

Then they got to the epilogue ending. It's like JJ Abrams mystery box, but for the first time they actually had a mystery in the damn box. So that was super cool and really salvaged the entire game for me. It's a bit nonsensical, but it's fun. Hints at larger mysteries, gives you some answers, gives you new powers and character moments, and then lets you loose for the endgame. Really, really cool. The only game that I've ever played that crammed 99.9% of its story in the very end like this was Dragon's Dogma 1. So, risky move but they managed to pull it off.

As for the big end game revelations, it's super neat but I'm not 100% sure it'll be enough to carry it through for a sequel. I kind of expect part 2 will be like The Matrix 2. We'll see. I'm down for playing it.

Gameplay: Mostly awesome, pretty fun fights for the most part. By the time I got to the paintress, I felt like I was just playing Space Channel 5 dance duels though. There is some RPG stuff there. You set up your combos, heal, etc. But for the most part, you're just watching the enemies do the most exaggerated delay off-beat attacks just to mess with you and then dancing to the beat. Luckily, I loved Space Channel 5. But I was practically saying to myself "up, down, up, down, chu, chu, chu" during the bosses at times.

I think the leveling up system is a bit of a mess and really doesn't make much sense to me. I had Maelle at the end of the game with the most maxed out Defense of anyone in my team, and she had 3 points in Defense. Why even bother having attribute points? Literally just equip whatever weapon, and only put points in the ones that give you the letter bonus and you just get everything. They could have just deleted attribute points and it wouldn't have made much difference. I also thought it was a huge bummer to limit the characters to only 6 equipped skills. I had core skills that I used throughout the game to set up my combos or give critical utility like raises or shields and so I honestly didn't even bother equipping or trying like 60% of the skills. I also felt the menu design for the Pictos and Lumina was cumbersome and poorly designed. It's not easy to tell which ones you learned and which ones are just equipped, and swapping those out for each character is just redundant when they all have similar attributes anyway. By the end I equipped whatever I wanted, but just the actual menu design and tinkering with it wasn't as fun as it could have been if it was designed better. I didn't bother with 99% of the weapons either and that's really the only gear in the game. There's really not any reason to ever switch weapons. Also no real economy, no real item management. For the most part it's a rhythm action game and barely an RPG, but it's still fun. Level design is pretty minimal and not great either. Small levels with no map and no significant exploration.

The minigames were actually great though and I appreciated that.

Art design and Music: Mostly phenomenal. I thought the music didn't have any true standout tracks for me, and it kind of had the faint feeling of being a NieR ripoff, but its well done, good recording for the most part and it's a huge OST. Art design feels a little samey at times in the levels, but mostly is phenomenal. Great cutscenes, really creative designs, and a few truly brilliant artistic moments like the world map, the Arkon of Wonder, Visages stage, etc.

I'm landing on a 9/10. I was thinking I'd go with an 8.5, until I got that great epilogue ending. Then I thought maybe a 9.5 or 10. But writing this up, I had enough complaints to drop it to a 9. It's still one of my favorite turn based RPGs ever, and a fantastic game. Going to take a break as I feel ready to move on to something else, but I'll come back in a bit to try the endgame stuff. Not going to be a surprise at all to see this sweep GOTY for most people I'm sure. It's fantastic, and I definitely enjoyed most of it.

 

[pnutboy]

Fucking hell, Verso ending made me cry. Such sad, beautiful, mature writing in this game. Got me thinking about my dad and had a profound impact on my day. Just wow man.

 

[DragoonKain]

I beat it for the first time, did both endings and Verso's ending to me felt so much better. I felt gross when I did the Maelle ending. Living in a fantasy because reality is too painful.

 

[rubik's dude]

Finished the game recently as well. My thoughts have definitely changed from then until now. Initially, before picking an ending, my thought process was this:

From a high level, Verso's decision is final, not just for himself, but for the entire canvas. Maelle's decision isn't, it allows for multiple possibilities, including allowing Verso to make the same decision later if he'd still want to. In that time though, who knows how Verso would feel, and how Maelle would cope.

So I picked Maelle's ending first. Then I reloaded an autosave and did Verso's. Upon their initial viewings, the Verso one definitely seemed happier, and I ended up preferring that one. However, upon retrospect, Verso's ending doesn't really work without the context of Maelle's ending. Without that context, we're just told to assume that Verso was right, which doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If we only got Maelle's ending though, it at least holds up by itself.

Not only that, Verso makes a rash decision with a final solution based purely on an emotional response to Renoir's guilt tripping, which was the only thing Renoir had left after being beaten. It also just goes to show that Renoir isn't a good parent, because that's the type of shit abusive parents do.

Maelle's ending may seem hopeless, it may seem like the cycle of grief will continue, and it may seem like Verso was right, but there's a lot of time between when the ending takes place and when Maelle would die. Not only that, but Maelle isn't Aline, she has a support system with Gustave and everyone. The effects of being in the painting too long will be obvious to them, and they could help her, whereas Aline chose to isolate herself and had no support system. There's plenty of other ways this could play out.

With that said, I don't think we're meant to choose between either ending. I believe they're meant to be companion pieces to one another to paint a tragic picture of the beings in the canvas being the real victims. They're the victims of in-fighting between gods who's actions end up negatively affecting everyone in the canvas.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

 

[Zephyranthes]

Chose Maelle, though not really for her sake. Esquie, Monoco, and Sciel might have been more-or-less accepting of being erased, but that doesn't make it a good outcome for them, to say nothing of Lune's totally justified fury at her fate and at Painted Verso violating her trust yet again. The Dessendres were responsible for creating the situation where the canvas had to be destroyed in the first place...its inhabitants shouldn't have to be punished for it.

 

[Neolombax]

Finally got around to beat the game. Chose Maelle's ending even though I believed in Verso's decision. Only because of what Renoir said before exiting the canvas. Thinking back, I'm of the opinion that Renoir was right all along in trying to keep his family together and live in the present. The only real people in the game is Renoir, Aline, and Alicia/Maelle, the journey and story of the other characters should not matter, but because of the way the game is structured you feel for them anyway.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Finished the other day and WOW. Amazing game with an incredible story. I ended up choosing Maelle's ending first, then going back to do Verso's. They are both excellent and true to their character's personalities. Rather than debate between the endings like a lot have done already here, I'd rather just explore some parts and themes from each.

Maelle's Ending

Truly horrific and disturbing. Ultimately this is Alicia escaping from her reality, she so desperately wants to be Maelle - someone who doesn't need to feel guilty about their brother's death, someone not disfigured and who can speak, and in this world someone who can leave the confines of her home and have freedom to see the world. It's clear she never thought her family cared much for her, and so she prefers to be with her chosen family inside the canvas. To Maelle, Gustave was her true brother and father figures. Why wouldn't she choose this ending of control for once in her life? It makes perfect sense for her character.

But just like she rejected her own reality after the fire and Verso's death, Maelle rejects the gommage and the tragedy that happened within the canvas. At the end, we are supposed to see a happy image of people brought back to life. I loved the characters in the game and I am in the camp that they are real enough to be considered sentient and deserving of life. When you think back to Monoco's speech about Noco, you realize even if Maelle recreats them, they're not exactly the same. You can see this is all an illusion Maelle is desperately trying to justify, but the shots near the end tell you she knows she is lying to herself and indulging in escapism while still wasting away - and the saddest part is it's made clear she knows it too.

I feel especially bad for Renoir. The way he said "I'll leave the lights on for you" and left the canvas I thought he was lying, but it seems he was telling the truth despite knowing Alicia would not be coming back for a long time (if ever). It's like a parent with a bad drug addiction doing everything they can, praying for their child to make the right choice despite how many painful repeats.

Despite all of Verso's lies, he did not deserve this fate. I have Verso's panicked terror in his last moments scorched into my mind, "I don't want this life". Being brought back in Maelle's image, she thought she was doing something righteous, but look at Verso's face while playing that piano. He either remembers, or feels something is very wrong - it seems like he is suffering even if he doesn't fully know why. Not sure which is worse.


I'll post about Verso's ending later.