And yet Ocelot hypnotising himself into believing he was Liquid was supposed to be 100% foolproof?
None of it makes any sense.
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SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
- Thread starter Love Deterrence
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And yet Ocelot hypnotising himself into believing he was Liquid was supposed to be 100% foolproof?
None of it makes any sense.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Looking back, there's so many subtle and not-so-subtle hints that something is amiss and I, honestly, never put them together until the truth was revealed and, honestly, I think that's kind of incredible. You're given hints that something is amiss, but it doesn't really piece together.
I dunno, it was a dumb twist but it was also enjoyable, for me, reaching it.
I dunno, it was a dumb twist but it was also enjoyable, for me, reaching it.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
KOMANI
KOMANI
What I miss more from this game is Shinkawa's (or Ashley wood for that matter) art during cutscenes.
The problem with MgS4, with the exception of trying to tie things together instead of having its own identity, is its cutscenes had long spaces of dead air and awkward silences. It's edited badly. All the other Metal Gears had better pacing when it came to its cutscenes.
Alas, MGSv is just like MGs4 to me... Fun to play, but my god what a beast it would have been had the story matched its game mechanics.
The problem with MgS4, with the exception of trying to tie things together instead of having its own identity, is its cutscenes had long spaces of dead air and awkward silences. It's edited badly. All the other Metal Gears had better pacing when it came to its cutscenes.
Alas, MGSv is just like MGs4 to me... Fun to play, but my god what a beast it would have been had the story matched its game mechanics.
It doesn't, but I don't know who was suggesting that scenario.
There are a few hints, but the narrative isn't built around the idea of Big Boss perhaps being an imposter, so I'm sceptical.
Things like the medic not wearing a balaclava in Ground Zeroes, the awkwardness of how Ocelot rescues Big Boss from the ambulance then goes back to help the medic.
I feel like it was an idea that came about somewhere partway through development. It doesn't seem well integrated enough into the narrative.
Imo the "he doesn't talk because he's not bb" thing doesn't make sense because he believes he's big boss, down to the voice being exactly the same, (seriously is there an explanation for that?). So if BB is talkative so should Venom technically. Instead we got this awkward stare.
the BIGGEST moment being this, instead of a rebuttal from this legendary leader, we get a random placed theme song that doesn't fit the moment in anyway shape or form. VS looks like he doesn't even know where he is.
^
The face of a man wondering what's for dinner.
Yeah, thought much the same thing when watching this scene. Kojima was going for another Snake Eater moment, but the execution was off. Sins of the Father is a good song and it would be effective if used right. You could probably fix the scene by having VS respond in some way, cuing the music, and then zooming the camera out to show the secret base off in the distance.
schlongdog
Banned
I wonder how long it will be until Kojima opens up about the game and starts explaining the reasons for his decisions.
And announces Chapter 3 set in Outer Heaven with the real Big Boss.....right? RIGHT?
No?
The series makes it clear his greatest strength is becoming whoever he needs to be to fulfill his role. It's still ridiculous, of course.
They almost seemed to acknowledge Big Boss' personality change throughout the game. And especially at the end where he's essentially saying the player shaped the legend of Big Boss with his own will and actions, not the will and actions of the real BB.
And announces Chapter 3 set in Outer Heaven with the real Big Boss.....right? RIGHT?
No?
The series makes it clear his greatest strength is becoming whoever he needs to be to fulfill his role. It's still ridiculous, of course.
They almost seemed to acknowledge Big Boss' personality change throughout the game. And especially at the end where he's essentially saying the player shaped the legend of Big Boss with his own will and actions, not the will and actions of the real BB.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
The scene with venom and skull face in the car, is one big epic fail.
Like you would think venom was actually mute with his reaction there.
Like you would think venom was actually mute with his reaction there.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
wat
Like half the dialogue and half the clues hint that you're not playing as BB. There's so many clues that it starts hitting you over the head with them after a certain point.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
The car scene would have been the perfect time for a response, at least to acknowledge that Skull Face was talking. The lack of any sort of words makes it look like he's not paying attention "oh, is that a rock?" "Hmmm... MB could use a few more digitalis plants."
We have a character called Quiet, who has a reason to be mute, and a character who is mute because his voice actor cost too much (?).
We have a character called Quiet, who has a reason to be mute, and a character who is mute because his voice actor cost too much (?).
schlongdog
Banned
I think all those clues, with the exception of the helicopter mirror(which I never found), were subtle enough that I didn't suspect a thing going into the final mission.
In hindsight they're obvious and make sense
Death Metalist
Member
I'm glad he used sins of the father in that car ride because it's what made the scene memorable to me. My thoughts to this is that VS didn't really gave a fuck what SkullFace was saying because he has it in his mind that he's going to kill SF after hearing what he has to say, that is until Sahelanthropus went mobile because of mantis.
I reiterate, I keep trying to see the good in the twist, but the twist is just dumb.
It sacrifices the story to have a M. Night twist. That's all it really does.
It doesn't tell the story of a man impersonating a legend. That would have been interesting. Maybe having Big Boss fail at moments, to show that he isn't quite up to it. But there's no indication of "You've gotten slower" or Venom Snake having made a mistake that Big Boss wouldn't. He does a perfect job at being a doppelgänger.
So what is the point? You're not, as I just said, telling the story of a man impersonating a legend; the character might as well be Big Boss, if you consider how he acts and how he's viewed. And to have the twist you skip out on developing Big Boss as a character. We see the downfall of a body double. That isn't inherently a bad thing, but where does his downfall lead him? To creating MG1's Outer Heaven. And where does Big Boss' lack of a discernible downfall (outside of letting Zero and Ocelot create a doppelgänger for him) lead him? To creating MG2's Outer Heaven.
What?
It isn't even smartly done. It's a twist that relies on outright lying to the player, and specifically about only the elements that would make the twist obvious. "Snake was Ishmael all along", "But Ishmael has no facial hair", "Fuck you".
Then, of course, the twist makes even murkier the Metal Gear canon. Really nothing is off limits or sacred any more. MGSV leads to pretty big retcons for MG1, and that domino effect will permeate through the series as a constant cycle if it was ever allowed to continue, everything straying more and more away from what was said to happen each time.
Kojima needs an editor.
It sacrifices the story to have a M. Night twist. That's all it really does.
It doesn't tell the story of a man impersonating a legend. That would have been interesting. Maybe having Big Boss fail at moments, to show that he isn't quite up to it. But there's no indication of "You've gotten slower" or Venom Snake having made a mistake that Big Boss wouldn't. He does a perfect job at being a doppelgänger.
So what is the point? You're not, as I just said, telling the story of a man impersonating a legend; the character might as well be Big Boss, if you consider how he acts and how he's viewed. And to have the twist you skip out on developing Big Boss as a character. We see the downfall of a body double. That isn't inherently a bad thing, but where does his downfall lead him? To creating MG1's Outer Heaven. And where does Big Boss' lack of a discernible downfall (outside of letting Zero and Ocelot create a doppelgänger for him) lead him? To creating MG2's Outer Heaven.
What?
It isn't even smartly done. It's a twist that relies on outright lying to the player, and specifically about only the elements that would make the twist obvious. "Snake was Ishmael all along", "But Ishmael has no facial hair", "Fuck you".
Then, of course, the twist makes even murkier the Metal Gear canon. Really nothing is off limits or sacred any more. MGSV leads to pretty big retcons for MG1, and that domino effect will permeate through the series as a constant cycle if it was ever allowed to continue, everything straying more and more away from what was said to happen each time.
Kojima needs an editor.
No kidding, the scene works a lot better if you just assume that Big Medic isn't even taking Skull Face seriously.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Well, that could be true as well. He was basically giving Skull Face his last words.
The trailers a year ago gave hints that you weren't playing the real BB. Things like him using an electronic cigar when BB had previously said he prefers the real thing, stuff like that.
It's extremely disappointing that many people assumed this well over a year ago and it turned out to be true. From a story/character perspective this is easily the weakest MGS game.
schlongdog
Banned
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah. Someone posted a link earlier to a year old gamefaqs topic where someone speculated you werent playing as BB. Say what you will about the 'implications' this has to the canon, but the twist was telegraphed in such a way that rewarded people who made note of the small details.
For everything implying Venom Snake wasn't Big Boss, there were at least two things implying that he was. But things like "If he lacked memories, wouldn't he have doubts" are explained away with hypnotherapy, and "How could someone just replace Big Boss" is explained away with Ocelot having training him for less than 10 days.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Is there ever any explanation for ahab having the same voice as big boss?
As far as i know the story is "He had it in ground zeros, so deal with this plothole"
As far as i know the story is "He had it in ground zeros, so deal with this plothole"
schlongdog
Banned
Something something Zero something something vocal chord parasite
sans lingua franca
BreezyLimbo
Banned
This is from the same series where theres psychic children, men who could project ravens at people, people running upside a building, and the infamous ocelot hypnotizing himself.
Not all that farfetched.
Death Metalist
Member
With a guy who makes a tommy gun from bees and shoots exploding bees from his mouth culminating in his death by exploding.
I'm not saying it's farfetched. You're right, anything is possible in Metal Gear (especially now). I'm just saying that for every hint that Venom Snake isn't Big Boss there are reasons why he probably is Big Boss that are explained away with bullshit. As Cinder mentions he has the same voice. Why? No good reason.
Death Metalist
Member
I thought of it so that VS doesn't question it? Like it's just all in his head type of shit.
EDIT: Another though maybe is that they did something to his vocal cords to make him sound like BB or who knows lol the guy just woke up from a 9 year coma with people trying to kill him. I think Ishmael sounding like him is the least of his worries.
Like that isn't his voice?
A "You sound different. New cigars?" from Kaz would have been good. I dunno, something.
Death Metalist
Member
I took it more like so that he doesn't question anyone about a guy named Ishmael who sounds different yet disappeared immediately after helping me out from death by a bunch of people. Sounding like VS makes it seem like he wouldn't question such a thing because "Hmm, must have been all in my head since he sounded like me I guess I was in a coma for so long I didn't even know I could do all this awesome stuff to stay alive."
Edit: Thinking more about it Ishmael held the gun first, shot first, infact every important decision was made by him during the entire opening.
Go to the Medical Bay. Put your night-vision goggles (to see the door clearly) and look for a door on the top floor.
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
Is that scene with Venom looking in the mirror and playing the cassette tape the way Venom's identity is finally revealed? If so, I think that's an awful way to showcase the idea of another man becoming the legend "Big Boss" himself. In fact, I think the way it was done subverted the theme entirely. Punching the mirror and displaying frustration doesn't necessarily suggest to me that he's accepted his role or is thrilled about it. In fact, I would have totally accepted him turning on Big Boss as a result of all the shit he had gone through.
But if we are to accept that he continues to assume the role up until Metal Gear where Venom dies literally on behalf of Big Boss, then the revelation shouldn't have been as much of a focus as it was. It would have made more sense, in my opinion, to have had a scene where Venom crosses paths with Big Boss face-to-face but quickly moves on, accepting that that's what his fate has become as he continues to assume the role. However I don't like the idea of Venom continuing the role so I would have preferred the following:
1) Venom is brainwashed and has surgery >
2) Venom carries out Big Boss' plans but becomes suspicious of who he actually is >
3) Venom confirms he is not who he's been led to believe after confronting Big Boss face-to-face >
4) Venom reluctantly continues to do Big Boss' dirty work but is entirely conflicted given the fact that they fucking brainwashed and gave him a surgical makeover >
5) Venom suspends his role as Big Boss and decides to take Big Boss on himself >
6) Venom is killed by Big Boss at the end of the game during a confrontation where Venom reveals a medical facility with other people undergoing surgery and brainwashing
That way a multitude of brainwashed people thinking they are Big Boss would be able to be in several parts of the world at once in order to fulfill his dream. And then we could also say that MG2's Big Boss was also a clone and that Big Boss never actually fought Solid Snake.
But if we are to accept that he continues to assume the role up until Metal Gear where Venom dies literally on behalf of Big Boss, then the revelation shouldn't have been as much of a focus as it was. It would have made more sense, in my opinion, to have had a scene where Venom crosses paths with Big Boss face-to-face but quickly moves on, accepting that that's what his fate has become as he continues to assume the role. However I don't like the idea of Venom continuing the role so I would have preferred the following:
1) Venom is brainwashed and has surgery >
2) Venom carries out Big Boss' plans but becomes suspicious of who he actually is >
3) Venom confirms he is not who he's been led to believe after confronting Big Boss face-to-face >
4) Venom reluctantly continues to do Big Boss' dirty work but is entirely conflicted given the fact that they fucking brainwashed and gave him a surgical makeover >
5) Venom suspends his role as Big Boss and decides to take Big Boss on himself >
6) Venom is killed by Big Boss at the end of the game during a confrontation where Venom reveals a medical facility with other people undergoing surgery and brainwashing
That way a multitude of brainwashed people thinking they are Big Boss would be able to be in several parts of the world at once in order to fulfill his dream. And then we could also say that MG2's Big Boss was also a clone and that Big Boss never actually fought Solid Snake.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Every important decision and every minor one. He basically drags you out of the hospital and gives you last minute training to ensure you're up to scratch.
I would've felt better if the real BB at the end was voiced by Hayter. That would've established the character and shown that the entire marketing outrage for this game was a ruse.
But it's not, it's just a copy. It's "lol, you thought these polygons were THESE polygons?! Did you rike it?"
But it's not, it's just a copy. It's "lol, you thought these polygons were THESE polygons?! Did you rike it?"
indigo-cyclops
Member
Same actor yea, but the pitch was different or slowed down or something. It wasn't completely 1:1.
Death Metalist
Member
I would have liked anything that involved DH, lmao. However, you'd have people then saying how did Ishmael sound like Keifer then if real BB was voiced by DH?!
It would be better if Sutherland only voiced Ahab and Ishmael was voiced by his MGS4 voice actor, his name slipped my mind right now, sorry, but that would completely give the twist away in Ground Zeroes, so there's a problem there.
Certinty
Member
Found it! Thanks, you saved me a lot of time.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I think that was yet another inconsistency. Big Boss is still in a coma in this game for at least a few years. Zero visits him in 1977 and speaks to him as if Big Boss cannot speak back and is laying in bed.
It's possible the LET coma got retconned.
Kamina
Golden Boy
What reflection in which helicopter?
That was never going to be the case because the Japanese voice is the same as usual.
SomedayTheFire
Member
At night in the helicopter. zoom in and look at the window. You see a reflection of the created character
I can't wait for the extra epilogue DLC that tells us that Venom Snake was the real Big Boss hypnotized into thinking he was the Medic hypnotized into thinking he was Big Boss, and the Big Boss on the tape was Miller who had hypnotized himself into thinking he was really Big Boss.
And the Big Boss at the end of MGS4 is just Volgin with Solidus' head transplanted onto his body, who had hypnotized himself into thinking he was Big Boss.
And the Big Boss at the end of MGS4 is just Volgin with Solidus' head transplanted onto his body, who had hypnotized himself into thinking he was Big Boss.
Death Metalist
Member
It makes sense but in a totally metal gear, Kojima way. Actually besides her clothing, she's a fantastic character too.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Everyone is hypnotised into thinking they are Big Boss. Even Kojima underwent hypnotherapy. This is why his relationship with Konami broke down. He was kidnapping developers and making them into his private army. "Security" they call it. Konami's office was the location of Kojima's Outer Heaven. No pachinko, no gameling machines, all for revenge.
V has come to.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
It makes sense in the way only an MGS. I maintain Quiet is the best character in the game and has the best story arc.
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