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[Salaadin]

People give Kojima way too much credit, so much confirmation bias.

MGS2 exists. And it's pretty much single handedly responsible for creating this way of thinking among fans.

 

[Hands of Stone]

~Snip~

You're reading too deep into this I think. Kojima more likely fucked up the story.

 

[Death Metalist]

MGS2 exists. And it's pretty much single handedly responsible for creating this way of thinking among fans.

Yeah, I was going to say that. You could look into it from the MGS3 trailers all the way to today. Subtle and not so subtle hints throughout with shit hidden that only are found months later lol, it isn't something new.

EDIT: It's the same thing with that gamefaq thread of some guy noticing that we aren't playing as BB.

 

[Ether_Snake]

You're reading too deep into this I think. Kojima more likely fucked up the story.

We'll see

 

[Protome]

I missed that! "Their own system" is S3, it's some sort of Arsenal Gear! Big Boss is in a self-induced coma, plugged to the AI, and is successfully passing a test to preserve himself. MGS V: MGS Virtual. The AI is throwing everything at him to make him become the Big Boss it wants, the one that would create a world of ever lasting war as in MGS4.

But he's the hero, presumably, he won't lose. But, someone else might.

You are looking way too much into this. "Their own system" just means they are hiding him in a Cipher run hospital. The whole sentence was to mislead the Phantom too though as we find out at the end Zero himself was helping hide Big Boss using Ciphers resources.

 

[Coffee Dog]

You're reading too deep into this I think. Kojima more likely fucked up the story.

Especially when compared to MGS2, a lot of the elements just don't come together in the same way.

Edit: also, dude, Liquid wasn't supposed to be cut. He was quite obviously supposed to be the final boss of the last metal gear as a callback to MGS1.

 

[aly]

I am thinking with age it got subdued, more controllable. That and well SS was able to change controller ports, lmao. As you said it may also have been an accident or nanomachines reduced his power.

lmao yeah the magical power of ports or age is also a pretty good explanation.

Probably because there were no armored vehicles or helicopters in or around the office where Solid Snake fought Mantis.

Excuses. I remember the desk in that room. lol

 

[Auctopus]

I can't tell if Ether Snake's post is a joke.

 

[Protome]

lmao yeah the magical power of ports or age is also a pretty good explanation.



Excuses. I remember the desk in that room. lol

Maybe he just wasnt siphoning hate from anyone but had developed his powers enough to do some stuff himself?

 

[GhostTrick]

Thanks Hands of Stone, I appreciate it

Another note: When Kaz is on the floor of the chopper after being rescued, he reminiscences about 9 years ago, and says their future was taken away from them, angry. At the same time as he says this, the chopper shakes violently as if due to turbulence, as if his anger was so strong it caused it to malfunction. Kaz is the most angry character in game, constantly trying to lure V down with him, and it never works.

Throughout the game, V is impeccable, he never follows Kaz's demands for revenge no matter what he has been put through, not even a little big, even in the "cut ending". Isn't this strange for a game that is supposed to show Big Boss' downfall as a result of a desire for revenge? That's another "Phantom Limb". Is Kaz a computer virus? The only thing that ever appears to cause him to go mad is after putting the Operation N313 tape in the cassette player, after the MSX turns on. Again and again Kaz is trying to make V go evil, he wants him to kill everyone, while Ocelot constantly says it's up to the Boss to decide. Kill Quiet! It's up to the Boss. Kill Huey! It's up to the Boss. Why? Is this a test? Ocelot is different, why? Because he's just overseeing things, not getting involved, because, it's a test for Big Boss.

The Phantom Limbs:

1- Big Boss missing.
2- Eli running away, depriving us of the game's "ending", like in MGS2.
3- Kojima being fired; so we literally miss Kojima. No "A Hideo Kojima" game, because he is a phantom limb.
4- Seeing Big Boss supposedly going evil, yet it's the opposite, even for his double, there is none of this at all.
5- Skull Face's ending, heck, his whole speech and how V doesn't even react to it.
6- Chico is just gone, and Paz is now an illusion? A phantom limb?

I could go on.

Hello? This is manipulation. It's Kojima making us explore a theme in a way ONLY VIDEO GAMES COULD.

You guys really think Kojima isn't doing something clever here? This is the same Kojima as MGS2'.

It's not over yet!



I missed that! "Their own system" is S3, it's some sort of Arsenal Gear! Big Boss is in a self-induced coma, plugged to the AI, and is successfully passing a test to preserve himself. MGS V: MGS Virtual. The AI is throwing everything at him to make him become the Big Boss it wants, the one that would create a world of ever lasting war as in MGS4.

But he's the hero, does he eventually lose or not?. Someone else might.

So basically, the lack of story is in line with the "Phantom Pain" ?
Yep... no sorry, this is not as deep as that. Not at all. Kojima isn't doing something clever here, it's just obvious that some things got scrapped and Kojima simply didn't delivered.
With a lame twist, he ruined a lot of things in the serie. A lot of things have been a missed opportunity. This game is missing important things, but that's not on purpose.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Thanks Hands of Stone, I appreciate it

Another note: When Kaz is on the floor of the chopper after being rescued, he reminiscences about 9 years ago, and says their future was taken away from them, angry. At the same time as he says this, the chopper shakes violently as if due to turbulence, as if his anger was so strong it caused it to malfunction. Kaz is the most angry character in game, constantly trying to lure V down with him, and it never works.

Throughout the game, V is impeccable, he never follows Kaz's demands for revenge no matter what he has been put through, not even a little big, even in the "cut ending". Isn't this strange for a game that is supposed to show Big Boss' downfall as a result of a desire for revenge? That's another "Phantom Limb". Is Kaz a computer virus? The only thing that ever appears to cause him to go mad is after putting the Operation N313 tape in the cassette player, after the MSX turns on. Again and again Kaz is trying to make V go evil, he wants him to kill everyone, while Ocelot constantly says it's up to the Boss to decide. Kill Quiet! It's up to the Boss. Kill Huey! It's up to the Boss. Why? Is this a test? Ocelot is different, why? Because he's just overseeing things, not getting involved, because, it's a test for Big Boss.

The Phantom Limbs:

1- Big Boss missing.
2- Eli running away, depriving us of the game's "ending", like in MGS2.
3- Kojima being fired; so we literally miss Kojima. No "A Hideo Kojima" game, because he is a phantom limb.
4- Seeing Big Boss supposedly going evil, yet it's the opposite, even for his double, there is none of this at all.
5- Skull Face's ending, heck, his whole speech and how V doesn't even react to it.
6- Chico is just gone, and Paz is now an illusion? A phantom limb?

I could go on.

Hello? This is manipulation. It's Kojima making us explore a theme in a way ONLY VIDEO GAMES COULD.

You guys really think Kojima isn't doing something clever here? This is the same Kojima as MGS2'.

It's not over yet!



I missed that! "Their own system" is S3, it's some sort of Arsenal Gear! Big Boss is in a self-induced coma, plugged to the AI, and is successfully passing a test to preserve himself. MGS V: MGS Virtual. The AI is throwing everything at him to make him become the Big Boss it wants, the one that would create a world of ever lasting war as in MGS4.

But he's the hero, does he eventually lose or not?. Someone else might.

Yea again, I think you're looking for stuff that clearly isn't there in the actual game. Kojima getting fired and Kojipro not being able to finish scenes from the trailers/the ending, and making an incredibly awkward driving sequence as well as having misleading trailers since this was supposed to be about BB is all supposed to be apart of some AI simulation and ploy to go along with the phantom pain title? I think you need to seriously think about what you're saying because it's absolutely ridiculous. What you're suggesting, is that Kojima went into the office one day, and said "Stop production on the eli ending, and final boss, and final unique level seperate from Africa and Afghanistan, if we cut it, it'll play into the name phantom pain. :O" Not to mention this game got pc release, if there was more stuff it likely would've been datamined by now.

Yeah, I was going to say that. You could look into it from the MGS3 trailers all the way to today. Subtle and not so subtle hints throughout with shit hidden that only are found months later lol, it isn't something new.

EDIT: It's the same thing with that gamefaq thread of some guy noticing that we aren't playing as BB.

World is a lot different then it was when MGS3 came out, we have the technology to find secrets WAY faster than in 2004.

 

[Alienous]

A couple more things from the reddit, while not spoilers I don't wanna people crying in the OT saying I ruined them discovering these:

-Smoking your cigar will raise the entire morale on the platform you're on.
-Every critical injury on your torso reduces your max health by 5% up to 30% until you return to your ACC.
-If you knock down a powerline while it's raining, it can shock enemies.
-You can hold up your soldiers on Mother Base and they will tell you the locations of diamonds on that platform.
-All 8 plants are gatherable on MB's Animal conservation platforms.
-Stand upright in the box and perform a dive, hold down the dive button and you slide.
-If you find a bunch of resources and want to collect them all you don't have to press the O button (or whatever) multiple times. Just hold it down and once you've picked up the first it'll start automatically on the second. Same goes for flowers and resource cases.
-You can find tapes of enemies yelling "Enemy is down!". Playing those through your speaker will make enemies stand down from an alarm
-In the Wandering Mother Base soldier missions if you equip the cardboard box they will stop running away and recognize you as the boss right away.
-when you upgrade the int scope, you can do more than place markers. If you use triangle, or y, it selects from different options like air raids, smoke dispersal etc.

Edit-



https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...phantom_pains_incomplete_ending_was_cut_from/

Yeah, that's sounds like Metal Gear Solid.

 

[DSN2K]

why does Big Boss not have that snake scar on his chest he made in Peace Walker ?

Spoiler

oh...

 

[Death Metalist]

why does Big Boss not have that snake scar on his chest he made in Peace Walker ?

Spoiler

oh...

Edit: This cut content bothers me because Koji is always known to be a perfectionist. I mean watching the MGS4 documentary today, jesus you could see some of the staff just hoping to drop dead. Some fucked up shit must have happened with Konami or there's something we all have been missing. Who knows lol.

Edit 2: Watching the kingdom of flies video, it's weird/funny how they named it "The Phantom Episode" then it changes to Episode 51 lol.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Yea again, I think you're looking for stuff that clearly isn't there in the actual game. Kojima getting fired and Kojipro not being able to finish scenes from the trailers/the ending, and making an incredibly awkward driving sequence as well as having misleading trailers since this was supposed to be about BB is all supposed to be apart of some AI simulation and ploy to go along with the phantom pain title? I think you need to seriously think about what you're saying because it's absolutely ridiculous. What you're suggesting, is that Kojima went into the office one day, and said "Stop production on the eli ending, and final boss, and final unique level seperate from Africa and Afghanistan, if we cut it, it'll play into the name phantom pain. :O" Not to mention this game got pc release, if there was more stuff it likely would've been datamined by now.

I'm saying the theme of the game is to make you want something you lost. It's meta as fuck, but if you want the players to feel this, something no other medium could do, it works.

I'm not going to go over the points I mentioned so often already, but really, just look at the Kaz VS Ocelot dynamic throughout the game, and how Boss is expected to fall on one side or another in every scene, yet never does. It doesn't make sense if he's supposed to go evil. This isn't a budget thing, the game was designed all the way to be about Big Boss going evil, and yet the opposite happens, while Kaz is constantly doing everything he can to push Big Boss in that direction.

Yet, when Boss goes evil, it's after putting the N313 tape in and the MSX turns on?? This is the result of a cut budget? The whole game is designed as if it's a "Will you go evil test", I highly recommend you rewatch various scenes in which Kaz is involved and look at what V says. "We need proofs before we can judge him", that's the kind of stand V is taking from the start to the end, while Kaz is always mad mad mad. Ocelot is always telling V to decide for himself.

Unless you think the game was supposed to be twice as long, to eventually show his downfall, it's clear we have been mislead, because that's the point.

 

[Alienous]

"Good news? You're in the land of the living.
Bad news? The whole world wants you dead"

"No, they want you dead, you evil fuck"

 

[Coffee Dog]

I'm saying the theme of the game is to make you want something you lost. It's meta as fuck, but if you want the players to feel this, something no other medium could do, it works.

I'm not going to go over the points I mentioned so often already, but really, just look at the Kaz VS Ocelot dynamic throughout the game, and how Boss is expected to fall on one side or another in every scene, yet never does. It doesn't make sense if he's supposed to go evil.

That's because the game is poorly written.

This isn't a budget thing, the game was designed all the way to be about Big Boss going evil, and yet the opposite happens, while Kaz is constantly doing everything he can to push Big Boss in that direction.

That's because the game is poorly written.

Yet, when Boss goes evil, it's after putting the N313 tape in and the MSX turns on?? This is the result of a cut budget?

No, it's because the game is poorly written.

Unless you think the game was supposed to be twice as long, to eventually show his downfall, it's clear we have been mislead, because that's the point.

I don't think the game was supposed to be twice as long. I think it failed to show big boss' downfall because it was poorly written.

You're attempting to turn a faulty, thematically and emotionally unsatisfying script into something more than it is. You've already arrived at the conclusion that MGSV is a meta narrative masterwork and are tenuously stretching for any shred of evidence to support it. Compare to MGS2, where the evidence was not only present throughout the entire narrative and in the core design of the game and mechanics, but it was practically stated and reinforced by several major primary characters.

 

[Mix Master]

will this game hurt kojima's legacy?

 

[Protome]

I feel like the Volgin boss fight is getting overlooked in here despite a lot of talk about bosses. It wasn't great but personally I love how they taught you how to beat him in the intro mission.

will this game hurt kojima's legacy?

It's still a better ending than "the two most annoying unlikeable characters have a stupidly long wedding cutscene while Snake catches a bullet with his teeth."

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm saying the theme of the game is to make you want something you lost. It's meta as fuck, but if you want the players to feel this, something no other medium could do, it works.

I'm not going to go over the points I mentioned so often already, but really, just look at the Kaz VS Ocelot dynamic throughout the game, and how Boss is expected to fall on one side or another in every scene, yet never does. It doesn't make sense if he's supposed to go evil. This isn't a budget thing, the game was designed all the way to be about Big Boss going evil, and yet the opposite happens, while Kaz is constantly doing everything he can to push Big Boss in that direction.

Yet, when Boss goes evil, it's after putting the N313 tape in and the MSX turns on?? This is the result of a cut budget? The whole game is designed as if it's a "Will you go evil test", I highly recommend you rewatch various scenes in which Kaz is involved and look at what V says. "We need proofs before we can judge him", that's the kind of stand V is taking from the start to the end, while Kaz is always mad mad mad. Ocelot is always telling V to decide for himself.

Unless you think the game was supposed to be twice as long, to eventually show his downfall, it's clear we have been mislead, because that's the point.

The themes are about language, race and revenge. You're projecting shit that really isn't there to salvage the terrible aspects of the plot. No, the game is not a simulation, Kaz isn't a computer virus because he's one dimensional and angry constantly as a foil to Ocelot who is constantly calm and collected. Sorry but no, cutting a pivotal plot point and ending boss fight, a unique level, several scenes from the trailers, isn't some genius master plan that could only be achieved for video games. Is it really THAT hard to just admit that mistakes with the management of the game were made during development, mistakes that likely led to a falling out and forced release date, which led to stuff getting cut? How is that such a hard concept? You REALLY think Kojima got fired on purpose to fit the theme of "phantom limbs?"

 

[Ether_Snake]

The themes are about language, race and revenge. You're projecting shit that really isn't there to salvage the terrible aspects of the plot. No, the game is not a simulation, Kaz isn't a computer virus because he's one dimensional and angry constantly as a foil to Ocelot who is constantly calm and collected. Sorry but no, cutting a pivotal plot point and ending boss fight, a unique level, several scenes from the trailers, isn't some genius master plan that could only be achieved for video games. Is it really THAT hard to just admit that mistakes with the management of the game were made during development, mistakes that likely led to a falling out and forced release date, which led to stuff getting cut? How is that such a hard concept? You REALLY think Kojima got fired on purpose to fit the theme of "phantom limbs?"

Hey don't get angry, if I'm wrong, nothing happens by the end of the month

 

[Crossing Eden]

Hey don't get angry, if I'm wrong, nothing happens by the end of the month

Baffled would be a more accurate word. Not angry.

 

[Fury451]

I can't tell if Ether Snake's post is a joke.

It's part of the meta-narrative of Kojima.

 

[The Silver]

Baffled would be a more accurate word. Not angry.

shit is worse than the Indoctrination theory

 

[SmartWaffles]

will this game hurt kojima's legacy?

I don't think so, yes the narrative is weak, but overall it is still a phenomenal game that will be talked about for years even decades to come. Disappointing in some aspect as it is, it's still a worthy entry to the MG series and a damn fine swan song for Kojima.

 

[Palpable]

why does Big Boss not have that snake scar on his chest he made in Peace Walker ?

Spoiler

oh...

That scar wasn't real.

 

[Death Metalist]

I don't think so, yes the narrative is weak, but overall it is still a phenomenal game that will be talked for years even decades to come. Disappointing in some aspect as it is, it's still a worthy entry to the MG series and a damn fine swan song for Kojima.

Agreed. I loved the overall message about the ending of us being BB and BB being us, keeping the legend alive.etc, it felt like Kojima was thanking us and saying goodbye. People's expectations/hype is what will get the better of them.

That scar wasn't real.

Yeah from what I remember it's because he's escaping or some shit like that. Egh, did not like that game at all. Which is weird because I absolutely love MGS5.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Not having Quiet to do the rest of the side-ops, replay missions etc is such bullshit

I think that's why her final moments had such a big impact for me, because it was a permanent thing. Not ideal, but it also gives a sort of finality to the whole affair, despite how frustrating it is from a playing perspective.

 

[RK9039]

They made Mantis look really powerful here. I can only assume he had some accident that reduces him only to chair throwing status later.

Yeah he lost all of his hair, that's his phantom pain in MGS1.

 

[Hands of Stone]

double.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Yeah he lost all of his hair, that's his phantom pain in MGS1.

Thanks for making me spit out all my water onto my keyboard.

 

[Taruranto]

Because the game wasn't finished. This resolves the Liquid arc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3e0LoFh8ew

Seriously, this Mantis and the one in MGS1, they may as well be very different characters.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Yeah he lost all of his hair, that's his phantom pain in MGS1.

Damn.

 

[Alienous]

The Phantom Pain's soundtrack had nothing that stuck with me, even as much as 'Extracting Paz' from Ground Zeroes.

I guess the Skulls 'Parasites' music was interesting. I sort of dug 'Hal's Child Unchained' too (the music that plays when you rescue Huey), but really just the unique part in it stuck out to me.

 

[Shauni]

I really don't get why people get bent out of shape about Mantis in this.

 

[Taruranto]

I really don't get why people get bent out of shape about Mantis in this.

Well, apparently ten years old Mantis had enough power he could control and move and unfinished Metal Gear (not to mention summon fire Pokemon!) and Liquid knew that. Why didn't he just move the Rex?

Also he and Eli had an epic adventure as kiddies in the island of the Lord of the Flies, I'm going to guess they are best friends, but none of this reflect in their MGS1/4 character. It's like they are different characters.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The Phantom Pain's soundtrack had nothing that stuck with me, even as much as 'Extracting Paz' from Ground Zeroes.

I guess the Skulls 'Parasites' music was interesting. I sort of dug 'Hal's Child Unchained' too (the music that plays when you rescue Huey), but really just the unique part in it stuck out to me.

The music for Paz's sidequest is pretty good, and that phantom pain casette tape.

 

[Death Metalist]

The Phantom Pain's soundtrack had nothing that stuck with me, even as much as 'Extracting Paz' from Ground Zeroes.

I guess the Skulls 'Parasites' music was interesting. I sort of dug 'Hal's Child Unchained' too (the music that plays when you rescue Huey), but really just the unique part in it stuck out to me.

Weird, in almost all of the cutscenes the soundtrack was on point. I mean just the part when Ocelot saves you all the way till it fades to black is one example. It's a fantastic score just not as good as the first 4. Certainly fucktons better than PW & GZ.

Ocelot - "Don't take too long getting used to your new self" heh.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Thank you for the one two punch of episodes 11&12. I was about to give up on this game. Please tell me it keeps this momentum?

 

[aly]

Yeah he lost all of his hair, that's his phantom pain in MGS1.

Lmao. Mantis is Metal Gear Samson. I don't mind how cool they made him here, but it's almost like he's too cool.

Well, apparently ten years old Mantis had enough power he could control and move and unfinished Metal Gear (not to mention summon fire Pokemon!) and Liquid knew that. Why didn't he just move the Rex?

Also he and Eli had an epic adventure as kiddies in the island of the Lord of the Flies, I'm going to guess they are best friends, but none of this reflect in their MGS1/4 character. It's like they are different characters.

I want dlc about those adventures with FFXV camping scenes.

 

[Alienous]

Thank you for the one two punch of episodes 11&12. I was about to give up on this game. Please tell me it keeps this momentum?

It doesn't keep it up, but it does build that momentum up again.

Also you might want to use the other thread until you've finished the game.

 

[Ether_Snake]

One thing I just remembered; Code Talker says about the parasite "It turns the male into female, preventing reproduction. But it doesn't affect only the parasite, it affects the host as well."

So Chico is Quiet lol.

On another point; is Eli the one who spreads the Kikongo strain at Mother Base? Was he "allowed to escape" LET for that purpose?

 

[Hands of Stone]

Edit: This cut content bothers me because Koji is always known to be a perfectionist. I mean watching the MGS4 documentary today, jesus you could see some of the staff just hoping to drop dead. Some fucked up shit must have happened with Konami or there's something we all have been missing. Who knows lol.

Edit 2: Watching the kingdom of flies video, it's weird/funny how they named it "The Phantom Episode" then it changes to Episode 51 lol.

Ended up watching the whole thing. The end part was bittersweet, I may not like how MGSV turned out (story wise) but it sucks Kojima won't ever have another crack at this series. Finally got his wish of passing on.

 

[Tookay]

will this game hurt kojima's legacy?

Well, I think it does two things.

I think it cemented the fact that he's an excellent game designer.

But it will hurt his reputation as a storyteller. Then again every game post-MGS3 has done that to some degree, so it isn't like this is some shocking revelation.

 

[PeterLegend]

So it was Eli controlling the Metal Gear that almost killed skullface? Somehow through Psycho Mantis...

 

[Tookay]

One thing I just remembered; Code Talker says about the parasite "It turns the male into female, preventing reproduction. But it doesn't affect only the parasite, it affects the host as well."

So Chico is Quiet lol.

You're omitting the part where Code Talker follows up by saying that it renders human males infertile. Not changing their sex.

Not to mention the part where it's explained that Quiet wasn't exposed to the parasite until AFTER the attack in the hospital, meaning she was already a female before the parasite ever comes into play.

 

[Death Metalist]

Ended up watching the whole thing. The end part was bittersweet, I may not like how MGSV turned out (story wise) but it sucks Kojima won't ever have another crack at this series. Finally got his wish of passing on.

Honestly, the entire disk is fantastic. This is another one that's on the disk as well. That's why I'm expecting the documentary of MGS5 to be real good. That's why the end content being bothers me since I know he's always been a perfectionist but then again back when it's the MGS4 days, things were different with Konami.

Here's the MGS2 documentary as well which is also really good.

 

[Ether_Snake]

You're omitting the part where Code Talker follows up by saying that it renders human males infertile. Not changing their sex.

Not to mention the part where it's explained that Quiet wasn't exposed to the parasite until AFTER the attack in the hospital, meaning she was already a female before the parasite ever comes into play.

It's a joke.

edit: I think the reason Salhentropus exists is to "infect" or influence minds. In this case, Eli is the one Mantis is trying to influence through it. He's trying to make him develop a thirst for revenge, by showing him a mean to execute it. Skull Face says Salhentropus will infect Cipher's system even if he dies, and in a way it does, Eli gets the idea that he can fight back thanks to it pretty much. And maybe, it infects "Big Boss"' too.

 

[Tookay]

It's a joke.

Sorry, after your "meta" theory earlier, I couldn't be too sure.

 

[SkylineRKR]

So it was Eli controlling the Metal Gear that almost killed skullface? Somehow through Psycho Mantis...

Yeah. Driven by his hate for BB. Mantis abandoned Volgin because there was a guy with more wrath around.