Support NeoGAF

[Alienous]

Re: the twist...

I think there's a lot that's been missed, or at least possibly miscontrued around the Venom/BB reveal. I think there's something a bit deeper at work, but I don't think I know how to fully articulate it. I'll do a quick cack-handed summary here. It's not very well structured at the moment, and I can't currently get screenshots or anything to support it all, but one day I'll actually do a decent post laying it all out.

Characters like Skull Face and Kaz, who know Big Boss, would have outright said "Hey, you don't look like Big Boss. You aren't Big Boss, are you?".

It seems pretty clear that Venom Snake looks like how you see him for 99% of the game.

 

[Auctopus]

Re: the twist...

I think there's a lot that's been missed, or at least possibly miscontrued around the Venom/BB reveal. I think there's something a bit deeper at work, but I don't think I know how to fully articulate it. I'll do a quick cack-handed summary here. It's not very well structured at the moment, and I can't currently get screenshots or anything to support it all, but one day I'll actually do a decent post laying it all out.

Anyone got anything they'd like to add to that to prove me wrong or right?

No, we got all that. It's still cheap and dumb.

 

[Village]

The only good thing about MGS4 was the ending talk between Snake and Big Boss. Other than that it was a HUGE letdown after the great MGS2.

Snake did a complete 180 from the character he was in MGS2. Raiden didn't take any of Snakes advice.

You may say PW and MGS5 don't exist in the timeline to you but it does. I don't like how MGS4 explained everything with nanomachines but it is what it is. MGS4 is fanservice: the game. The main story is good but all the shit in between is silly nonsense.

1) silly nonsense is metal gear

2) MGS4 allowed rising to happen, so it should be constantly given respect

 

[Hands of Stone]

Solidus is the hero we deserve.

Amen.

 

[nOoblet16]

Re: the twist...

I think there's a lot that's been missed, or at least possibly miscontrued around the Venom/BB reveal. I think there's something a bit deeper at work, but I don't think I know how to fully articulate it. I'll do a quick cack-handed summary here. It's not very well structured at the moment, and I can't currently get screenshots or anything to support it all, but one day I'll actually do a decent post laying it all out.

Starter - I don't think Venom *does* look like Big Boss. At all. I think the avatar we choose for the medic character is actually how our player-character looks, and that the whole game is basically a meta-narrative about fooling people and what we choose to believe.

What got me thinking about this, to begin with, is the 'mirror scene' shown later in the game, where VS learns 'the truth'. There's a brief flash (several seconds at least) showing the avatar the player chose as the reflection, including the horn shrapnel. The assumption seems to be that this is a metaphor of sorts, or perhaps a flash of VS's mind revisiting his pre-plastic surgery looks.

Personally, I don't think that's how it's playing out - I think it's VS mind showing him for once how he actually looks, before reverting back to the classic 'BB' visage. Evidence for this...

- Firstly, Huey doesn't recognise BB at all. I don't think that's due to the plastic surgery, the shrapnel or whatever, but because he recognises the *voice* but not the *face*.

- Ocelot's speech during the med-bay Paz scene specifically refers to disassociative disorders, where the patient simply rejects anything that doesn't fit their own internal time line. The Medic has seen Big Boss, and knows what he looks like, and when he's woken up (as well as via the memory implants etc), *thinks* he's BB, therefore he rejects the fact that he doesn't look like him and simply inserts his own reality; one where his face is that of BB.

- One of the tapes (can't remember which, think it was to do with the PFs), states that soldiers simply won't recognise BB out in the field, but can be persuaded that VS is the real BB once they're back at the base. This doesn't fit with the lore of the series - BB is supposed to be so famous and recognisable that Zero literally has him cloned in case they lose him. His image is iconic and is widely known, to the point that it's stated the bandages are left on in the hospital is so that people don't recognise you (and this is of course another great way to help VS believe that he looks like BB). The reason soldiers don't recognise VS in the field is because he *doesn't look like BB at all*.

- the 'plastic surgery' never takes place. The reason both 'mirror' scenes in the hospital look exactly like BB is because that's what VS believes he looks like. The plastic surgery to make you look like BB may have been something that was due to take place, I haven't figured this out yet, but at some point there was at least some reconstructive surgery carried out, as mentioned in the tapes that state that the surgeons didn't know what they were looking at when he was initially brought in.

- I'm under the impression from reading other things that the only other person who isn't "in on it" is Kaz, who I think had been hypnotised or something to believe this was really BB. Is that right? I've not finished the game yet, so I'm basing this on the bits I *have* seen and have read, and I'm sure I read that on here.

- The reversion back to the 'BB' face in the mirror at the end of 'the truth' cutscene, is VS basically once again, and finally, rejecting his own face and again replacing it with that of BB. I think the message is that he's so far gone at this point that he is fully rejecting what he knows as the actual truth and going with the fantasy.

There's stuff I think I've forgotten, and I'm not sure what Kojima is trying to say with this stuff (I'm sure it's something about subverting player expectations or something), and I'm absolutely positive it's possibly shite and that someone who's played more of the game than me will point out something I've missed that completely disproves it (and also I'm very tired and ill and I've slept weirdly for about a week). But, I think enough that I might be right enough to throw it out there.

Anyone got anything they'd like to add to that to prove me wrong or right?

If you've played the Truth then how have you not finished the game?
And about Miller, there is a post credit recording.

Also the AI pod first thinks it's Big Boss then says no it's not you...if he didn't even look like Big Boss then there was no way for the pod to even make the connection.

 

[Ishida]

The idea that Big Boss on the radio during Operation Intrude N313 was an AI guiding Solid Snake to kill the phantom makes no sense. The Big Boss on the radio is constantly giving wrong information and leading Snake into traps, ambushes, gas chambers, etc.

Whoever is instructing Solid Snake by radio wants Snake to fail, but Snake still succeeds.


Before the retcon it all made perfect sense. The US got word of Outer Heaven, so they order Big Boss to carry out an investigation. Big Boss knows that they need to fool the US, so he sends his best agent, Gray Fox, to infiltrate. Of course since he knows of Fox's every move, he captures him.

In order to buy more time for the completion of TX-55 Metal Gear, Big Boss then sends the rookie Solid Snake and tries to misguide him to trap/kill him, but Snake still manages to complete the mission, reveal the truth and defeat Big Boss.


It was all very simple and clear. Easy to understand. I don't get the need to retcon all of this with a body double, and the AI's having control over the operation. In the original game, both Operation Intrude's were a part of Big Boss' gamble to buy more time for his plans to be successful.


But fuck all that now, right?

 

[Plasma]

Anyone got anything they'd like to add to that to prove me wrong or right?

I'm fairly sure he does actually have plastic surgery there's 48 hours between the face customisation and then the doctor taking off his bandages.

 

[Karkador]

Not sure if it belongs here or where it would belong, but I noticed that people are asking about the whole controversy about Quiet's design, and the general consensus is "It's not really justified all that well, but don't let the design bother you, because she's got all this captivating character and story and stuff."

This is something I think about a lot when trying to understand audiences nowadays, and the verdict on Quiet was something I was waiting for to give my mind clarity in understanding audiences nowadays. The reaction to Quiet, can I take this to mean that design doesn't matter, and that what actually matters is story and personality and so on and so forth/the lack of that stuff? Design is not a factor for Quiet? All we care about is her story and the song and et cetera?

So far, the design seems completely at odds with what they were trying to go for with the character. It also doesn't help that she's the most interesting character in the game - I want to like Quiet, but the game seems hellbent on trashing the concept with the way she's depicted.

 

[Anung]

Not sure if it belongs here or where it would belong, but I noticed that people are asking about the whole controversy about Quiet's design, and the general consensus is "It's not really justified all that well, but don't let the design bother you, because she's got all this captivating character and story and stuff."

This is something I think about a lot when trying to understand audiences nowadays, and the verdict on Quiet was something I was waiting for to give my mind clarity in understanding audiences nowadays. The reaction to Quiet, can I take this to mean that design doesn't matter, and that what actually matters is story and personality and so on and so forth/the lack of that stuff? Design is not a factor for Quiet? All we care about is her story and the song and et cetera?

Ehhhh. She doesn't really get any character development till the very end of the game and the scenes she does get are undermined by her bodies design/massive breast physics. Also the story doesn't justify it well enough for it to stick. I mean if clothing smothers her because of photosynthesis, engineered from The End, why wasn't he dressed very sexily?

People are quite rightfully jumping on her design and the story doesn't do enough to make it acceptable.

Quiet's XOF outfit is fucking awesome.

 

[nOoblet16]

The only good thing about MGS4 was the ending talk between Snake and Big Boss. Other than that it was a HUGE letdown after the great MGS2.

Snake did a complete 180 from the character he was in MGS2. Raiden didn't take any of Snakes advice.

You may say PW and MGS5 don't exist in the timeline to you but it does. I don't like how MGS4 explained everything with nanomachines but it is what it is. MGS4 is fanservice: the game. The main story is good but all the shit in between is silly nonsense.

Uh what's the meaning of this?
Ofcourse it exists, when I say it doesn't exists for me I mean it in a way that I choose to ignore its events when I think of Metal Gear saga...that's why I said it doesn't exist for me. I choose to accept Metal Gear until the end of MGS4's release, anything that came after that is not part of it in my head...it's my headcanon.

 

[Terrified]

If you've played the Truth then how have you not finished the game?
And about Miller, there is a post credit recording.

Also the AI pod first thinks it's Big Boss then says no it's not you...if he didn't even look like Big Boss then there was no way for the pod to even make the connection.

I saw it. Couldn't resist the spoilers, I'm afraid...

Characters like Skull Face and Kaz, who know Big Boss, would have outright said "Hey, you don't look like Big Boss. You aren't Big Boss, are you?".

It seems pretty clear that Venom Snake looks like how you see him for 99% of the game.

I'm fairly sure he does actually have plastic surgery there's 48 hours between the face customisation and then the doctor taking off his bandages.

Well, that's that then, good points all round. Cheers for the input and for taking the time to read.

No, we got all that. It's still cheap and dumb.

I didn't say it wasn't...

 

[Garrett Hawke]

So far, the design seems completely at odds with what they were trying to go for with the character. It also doesn't help that she's the most interesting character in the game - I want to like Quiet, but the game seems hellbent on trashing the concept with the way she's depicted.

Pretty much. I really really liked Quiet's characterisation, her story is interesting, and the ending you get with her is a hell of a lot better than the other "ending". But all of that could have easily been done without the pointless pandering and sexualisation that really doesn't add to her character but rather takes away from it. During gameplay and cutscenes she's super stoic, focused, serious - and then in the ACC and her cell she's all "don't look at my bewbs! XD just kidding, look at my ass too!".

Literally all of this could've been fixed by just dressing her properly. Her character design nearly ruined it for me but I was just able to look past it thanks to her storyline being the most interesting arc in the game.

 

[aly]

My problem with the twist is that it takes away from the story instead of adding to it. Instead of an awesome story about BB is just some story about some dude who thinks he's BB. Why? What is the point and why should I care if that wasn't really him? That's not clever, just dumb. The cut ending made me wish this was the adventures of Eli and Mantis doing whatever instead.

 

[Anung]

My problem with the twist is that it takes away from the story instead of adding to it. Instead of an awesome story about BB is just some story about some dude who thinks he's BB. Why? What is the point and why should I care if that wasn't really him?

Proper. MGS2 was a twist that re-contextualized everything before it. This is an 11th hour M. Night twist you could see from space that does nothing for the plot but detract from it.

 

[schlongdog]

It might just be a placebo, but the few bits of dialogue we get from the real BB feel so much more like the real BB than Venom

 

[Anung]

It might just be a placebo, but the few bits of dialogue we get from the real BB feel so much more like the real BB than Venom

Oh I agree. Maybe it was the context but the tapes you get after the end feel so much real to me. Hearing Big Boss talk about Solid and Liquid, Zero and all that felt better acted or more legit.

Might just be our imaginations though.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Of course Huey gets thrown down the stairs the first time you meet him. Why not.

The first time I met him he was using stealth camo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DYodfP0LKY

 

[Kaljinyu]

So far, the design seems completely at odds with what they were trying to go for with the character. It also doesn't help that she's the most interesting character in the game - I want to like Quiet, but the game seems hellbent on trashing the concept with the way she's depicted.

Ehhhh. She doesn't really get any character development till the very end of the game and the scenes she does get are undermined by her bodies design/massive breast physics. Also the story doesn't justify it well enough for it to stick. I mean if clothing smothers her because of photosynthesis, engineered from The End, why wasn't he dressed very sexily?

People are quite rightfully jumping on her design and the story doesn't do enough to make it acceptable.

Quiet's XOF outfit is fucking awesome.

Pretty much. I really really liked Quiet's characterisation, her story is interesting, and the ending you get with her is a hell of a lot better than the other "ending". But all of that could have easily been done without the pointless pandering and sexualisation that really doesn't add to her character but rather takes away from it. During gameplay and cutscenes she's super stoic, focused, serious - and then in the ACC and her cell she's all "don't look at my bewbs! XD just kidding, look at my ass too!".

Literally all of this could've been fixed by just dressing her properly. Her character design nearly ruined it for me but I was just able to look past it thanks to her storyline being the most interesting arc in the game.

Alright, thanks for that. It's not really solely a MGSV issue for me, but with Kojima saying "Oh no, I'll change your tune, naysayers" this is a game that, for future debates, I'll keep in mind. Until the day my soul finds respite.

 

[Blablurn]

This game....


This fucking game....


Game of the Year!

 

[teknix]

I'm hoping that Kojima can really do some creative new stuff now that he is no longer held down by MGS' convoluted lore.

I'm severely disappointed by the story and wonder how much of Kojima's falling out may have affected his story decisions.

 

[Ether_Snake]

What happens with the Mammal Pod? They just keep it around like it's MB's own robo-pet or something?

 

[schlongdog]

Oh I agree. Maybe it was the context but the tapes you get after the end feel so much real to me. Hearing Big Boss talk about Solid and Liquid, Zero and all that felt better acted or more legit.

Might just be our imaginations though.

It might be....but I don't think it is. there's a clear difference in personality to me.

You only have to look at the intro again knowing what we know about Ishmael and Ahab.

Two Big Bosses, one silent, one not.

 

[nOoblet16]

Ehhhh. She doesn't really get any character development till the very end of the game and the scenes she does get are undermined by her bodies design/massive breast physics. Also the story doesn't justify it well enough for it to stick. I mean if clothing smothers her because of photosynthesis, engineered from The End, why wasn't he dressed very sexily?

People are quite rightfully jumping on her design and the story doesn't do enough to make it acceptable.

Quiet's XOF outfit is fucking awesome.

Forget the end, even code talker wears clothes and he has the parasite. Same for skull unit eventhough their clothes look like part second skin part body paint.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Just finished mission 41. When does the next story mission unlock? Do I have to murder all my troops soon?

 

[SkylineRKR]

Is what I'm doing, but a full set of tranq ammo barely dents their stamina, could really use Quiet infinitely firing shots at them.

You don't need to tranq Skulls. Go all out with lethal. Extract them. Get S and all objectives. Give Quiet the Sinful Butterfly and laugh on top of the roof.

 

[Formless]

What happens if you fulton Volgin? I wasn't able to.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Why would Ishmael say he was watching over Venom for 9 years? Does he expect you to believe he just spent 9 years in a hospital gown and a face covered in bandages watching a guy in a coma?

What even happened during the 9 years? What even anything

 

[AAMARMO]

???

 

[Peff]

*sigh*

 

[Hands of Stone]

LOL, this is never gonna end.

 

[Sub_Level]

There are people who seriously thought the actual game coming out would put an end to theories, but this is in fact only the beginning.

 

[Boke1879]

LOL, this is never gonna end.

Then it wouldn't be MGS

 

[mgs2master2]

???

if this is true and to be believed, I honestly dont know what to make of the ending then

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Ah, the old "this was written poorly but I'm going to give the writers massive benefit of the doubt even when they don't deserve it to try and make sense of this mess".

 

[Hands of Stone]

Ah, the old "this was written poorly but I'm going to give the writers massive benefit of the doubt even when they don't deserve it to try and make sense of this mess".

The best.

 

[mf.luder]

Is there a delivery point at OKB Zero?

 

[LordCanti]

Anyone got anything they'd like to add to that to prove me wrong or right?

It's a nice theory but some of the avatars you can choose are black. It's a bit of a stretch to think that old soldiers that had worked with BB and others like Huey would be willing to accept that BB had been turned into a black man via surgery.

I mean...I'm not ruling anything out..

 

[Anung]

It's a nice theory but some of the avatars you can choose are black. It's a bit of a stretch to think that old soldiers that had worked with BB and others like Huey would be willing to accept that BB had been turned into a black man via surgery.

I mean...I'm not ruling anything out..

Chapter 2: Race

 

[LordCanti]

Chapter 2: Race

Having said that, now that I think about it, it's hard to swallow that a black guy was surgically turned into Big Boss either so that goes both ways.

A better idea for why it's not the case is probably the printed posters around MB that have "Big Boss is watching you" and a picture of the real Big Boss look on them. I guess you could argue that Venom was hallucinating the picture on those too but where does it end.

 

[Sub_Level]

where does it end.

On the battlefield, you never think about whats next.

 

[Ether_Snake]

For the Ingsoc website, it says Black Hound. Where did people get the Bloodhound name from?

It also says A ##### ###### Game at the top in the browser bar. Was that always there? It's "A Hideo Kojima Game".

Ingsoc is

(Newspeak for English Socialism or the English Socialist Party) is the political ideology of the totalitarian government of Oceania in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Why was "A Hideo Kojima Game" tag removed from MGSV? Because he was fired, right? Or not?

It no longer says "An unannounced Nintendo Platform", it says Nintendo Dreamcast.

 

[ZeroX03]

I think the twist is poor because it detracts more than it adds to the game. This could've been a story about the real Big Boss and very little would change. Raiden totally suberts player's expectations but tells a very specific story to him. But the Medic has an avatar, in a game that's all about gameplay choice but little in the ways of story falls flat. There's a message there, just not one that was all that necessary or powerful. Same with retconning MG1. I don't care that much about the Metal Gear games and don't think they're sacred, but why fuck with them? To give V - a faceless avatar - more plot relevance?

Ironically I think MGS2 is the reason we got this twist in the first place. Past Metal Gear games have had twists, but MGS2 really ratcheted it up to conspiracy theory levels and fans became fervent in their expectations of Kojima. Which led to MGS4 and 5.

I'm not angry about the twist just indifferent. I don't think it will get Raiden levels of reaction but I think it'll put a damper on reactions. Do we know what reviewers reached the Truth ending and which didn't? I get the feeling quite a few didn't.

 

[Ishida]

For the Ingsoc website, it says Black Hound. Where did people get the Bloodhound name from?

It also says A ##### ###### Game at the top in the browser bar. Was that always there? It's "A Hideo Kojima Game".

Ingsoc is



Why was "A Hideo Kojima Game" tag removed from MGSV? Because he was fired, right? Or not?

It no longer says "An unannounced Nintendo Platform", it says Nintendo Dreamcast.

Why are people paying attention to that site in particular? It says "Nintendo Dreamcast" at the bottom, people...

 

[Hands of Stone]

Why are people paying attention to that site in particular? It says "Nintendo Dreamcast" at the bottom, people...

Dreamcast means life.

 

[Alienous]

I think the twist is poor because it detracts more than it adds to the game. This could've been a story about the real Big Boss and very little would change. Raiden totally suberts player's expectations but tells a very specific story to him. But the Medic has an avatar, in a game that's all about gameplay choice but little in the ways of story falls flat. There's a message there, just not one that was all that necessary or powerful. Same with retconning MG1. I don't care that much about the Metal Gear games and don't think they're sacred, but why fuck with them? To give V - a faceless avatar - more plot relevance?

Ironically I think MGS2 is the reason we got this twist in the first place. Past Metal Gear games have had twists, but MGS2 really ratcheted it up to conspiracy theory levels and fans became fervent in their expectations of Kojima. Which led to MGS4 and 5.

I'm not angry about the twist just indifferent. I don't think it will get Raiden levels of reaction but I think it'll put a damper on reactions. Do we know what reviewers reached the Truth ending and which didn't? I get the feeling quite a few didn't.

Right. The twist reeks of being a twist for twist's sake.

The story of a dude who is impersonating a legend would be an interesting story to tell, but that isn't the story of MGSV. It is a twist that discounts the relevance of the actual events (another chapter in Big Boss' descent into becoming 'evil') for the sake of having a "Haha, got you!" moment. The only thing it does is explain something nobody had questions about ('How does Big Boss survive MG1?').

Like Raiden it is a twist, but also it has the meta element of referring to the player. MGS2 done that with a lot more class; though Raiden isn't literally the player, and likely doesn't look like the player, he is the player's window into this world. When Snake speaks to him at the end he is speaking to the player also. Compare that to MGSV's hammy "You're Big Boss. Carry that with you" and the difference in approach is obvious.

 

[Sub_Level]

Ironically I think MGS2 is the reason we got this twist in the first place. Past Metal Gear games have had twists, but MGS2 really ratcheted it up to conspiracy theory levels and fans became fervent in their expectations of Kojima. Which led to MGS4 and 5.

MGS2's reaction led to MGS3.

A more simple story with a character who is definitively a Snake and which poked fun at that "gay Raiden" guy.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I like how every MGS game since 2 has had fans rabidly theorizing that everything is all a massive ruse, and it never has been... until MGSV, where there was a ruse, but it's so hamfisted and disappointing that they want to believe that it's not real.

 

[AAMARMO]

For the Ingsoc website, it says Black Hound. Where did people get the Bloodhound name from?

It also says A ##### ###### Game at the top in the browser bar. Was that always there? It's "A Hideo Kojima Game".

Ingsoc is



Why was "A Hideo Kojima Game" tag removed from MGSV? Because he was fired, right? Or not?

It no longer says "An unannounced Nintendo Platform", it says Nintendo Dreamcast.

Keith Apicary - Dreamcast 2 Song

 

[Ether_Snake]

Why are people paying attention to that site in particular? It says "Nintendo Dreamcast" at the bottom, people...

So first it said an unannounced Nintendo platform, then it became Nintendo Dreamcast, and that is supposed to make it obvious that it's fake because? Why make it obvious that it's fake if the intention is to fool people into thinking it's real?

And how did it manage to get so many connections to Kojima/MGS so ahead of time, before there was any hint Kojima would leave Konami? It had quotes from The Boss, it has the A Hideo Kojima Game thing, Kojima twittered about Orwell's 1984 before, the site is called Ingsoc, images shown so far look like Silent Hill, etc.

Edit: Also note that "Kojima is fired" was in April, the first time KojimaLives twittered #kojimalives was May 11, just a few weeks later.

 

[Hands of Stone]

I like how every MGS game since 2 has had fans rabidly theorizing that everything is all a massive ruse, and it never has been... until MGSV, where there was a ruse, but it's so hamfisted and disappointing that they want to believe that it's not real.

It's all about that anti theory man.