You have to remember, Kojima was fired during development. Odds are he had a certain timeframe he had to deliver the game before he was out the door. Under different circumstances I bet it would have been delayed at least until the end of the year.
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You have to remember, Kojima was fired during development. Odds are he had a certain timeframe he had to deliver the game before he was out the door. Under different circumstances I bet it would have been delayed at least until the end of the year.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
To be fair even with the inclusion of Episode 51 the story still would have been super weak.
I hope we get a full idea of what went on during development, but lets be clear, this game was marketed as the missing link, the filler gap between MSF and Outer Heaven, Big Boss's true decent into evil shit.
Now, Kojima has basically just pulled an MGS2, and wether this game was meant to be a homage to MGS2 and basically tricking everyone with the marketing or fucking up the games development to the point where Konami pulls the plug and tells the team to start cutting content and make an ending with what they have is remained to be seen.
Why have I never seen this before. That's so bizarre.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I really wonder how much of Chapter 2 was cut. I mean, it seems to me that Chapter 1 was revenge and the true start of Venoms decent into being a demon only happened at the end.
We see what Chapter 51 ends it, Venom left a fucking kid to either burn to death or blow his own brains out.
The Venom from the start of Chapter 2 and end of Episode 51 is hardly the same character, we clearly missed a huge portion of development between how triggered Venom to lead down a path where he is so "no fucks given" mode about Eli.
Even with the mass executions of the QZ struct, that alone doesn't feed that moment, Chapter 2 really seems to be that missing link... which is missing.
We see what Chapter 51 ends it, Venom left a fucking kid to either burn to death or blow his own brains out.
The Venom from the start of Chapter 2 and end of Episode 51 is hardly the same character, we clearly missed a huge portion of development between how triggered Venom to lead down a path where he is so "no fucks given" mode about Eli.
Even with the mass executions of the QZ struct, that alone doesn't feed that moment, Chapter 2 really seems to be that missing link... which is missing.
And there is no chance of a DLC to complete chapter 2 either since I doubt either Kojima or Konami will want to bother.
SkylineRKR
Member
The game pretty much ended after 31. We got WHOOOOOOOOO? translated as 'Who?'. Perfect send off.
Death Metalist
Member
I'm here to report that the documentary disk is highly disappointing when compared to the amazing MGS2 and MGS4 ones. All we got is trailers, interviews about the MGS legacy(Keifer is rocking that BB beard!) and the cut episode. I guess I shouldn't have expected anything else because of the bad shit that happened with Konami and Kojima.
CambriaRising
Member
Yeah it seems like it's missing the promised documentary. I bet it's all been tossed in the trash. That mgs legacy interview is so fucking amateur you can tell it was an afterthought.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
On one side, rape is common during warfare, so that it could occur to someone in a lost camp in Afghanistan doesn't bother me.
What bothers me is the guy tried to rape basically a super soldier/sniper who could pull off inhumane feats. You have to be a special kind of idiotic brainless moron to do that.
On the plus side of the scene, Quiet unleashes hell on them alone and Venom Snake doesn't help her, which would've spoiled the whole scene imho.
Thinking about it, it was kind of ballsy at the time to pull the switcheroo in MGS2 (meaning a risk to displease the fanbase of a hugely successful PS1 game), but it takes some brass balls to do it again here :
- He never said Naked Snake was the protagonist of Phantom Pain IIRC
- He does the MGS2 but here worse with an unrelated character pretending to be Big Boss, while in MGS2 Raiden is clearly different and defined.
- He does it in the very final MGS he directs and that is supposed to be the epic finale of Big Boss saga just like MGS4 was to Solid Snake's
Even if the plot twist is kind of weak, I can only admire he dared to do it.
Also, I think it is interesting to see how people aren't enclined to play the game anymore (to complete the side ops for example) just because Venom Snake isn't Naked Snake. Sure, playing the character you like is part of the experience. But then again, if you (greatly) enjoyed the game for its gameplay, why should it bother you ?
I wonder if this plot twist will be rendered known and discussed as openly as
Aerith's death
Death Metalist
Member
That's a shame. I have watched both MGS2 and 4's documentary dozens of times. They are extremely well done and HIGHLY informative. *sighs* I wish their relationship soured before Kojima decided to do another fucking MGS.
I've wrapped episode 47 The Truth and gotten a SHITLOAD of revalations. Am I done? I just have to clear up some stuff with Paz and then mourn not having Quiet. Is there a way I can get some kind of gameplay simulcrum of her back? 
Not sure I'm ready to discuss this fully but jesus christ kojima
KOJIMAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I actually feel this way a bit and I'm gonna take some time to unpack why. I think the main reason is that... well, I kinda give a shit about BB. This ain't like Just Cause or Far Cry where I don't give two shits about who you are playing as... part of Metal Gear is being Snake (or Raiden), and being myownavatar*2 is kinda dispiriting.
Not sure I'm ready to discuss this fully but jesus christ kojima
KOJIMAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I actually feel this way a bit and I'm gonna take some time to unpack why. I think the main reason is that... well, I kinda give a shit about BB. This ain't like Just Cause or Far Cry where I don't give two shits about who you are playing as... part of Metal Gear is being Snake (or Raiden), and being myownavatar*2 is kinda dispiriting.
Hands of Stone
Member
Had a feeling it was gonna be cut since so no one had mentioned anything about it.
What I'd do if I coulda been a fly on the wall at some of those meetings..
UrbanDandy
Member
That's bad.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I've wrapped episode 47 The Truth and gotten a SHITLOAD of revalations. Am I done? I just have to clear up some stuff with Paz and then mourn not having Quiet. Is there a way I can get some kind of gameplay simulcrum of her back?
Not sure I'm ready to discuss this fully but jesus christ kojima
KOJIMAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Chapter 2 more like Chapter 1.1
And even if it was finished what kind of work only has two Chapters? Should have been called Season 1 and Season 2 to go with the game's TV aesthetic.
SkylineRKR
Member
Rip out some filler missions, place the exclusive chapter 2 missions into chapter 1. Remove chapter structure altogether.
But maybe they initially planned a DLC model. Because the mission and chapter structure (and even the way it deals with 'endings') makes it easy to add story or filler missions to this game almost indefinitely.
But maybe they initially planned a DLC model. Because the mission and chapter structure (and even the way it deals with 'endings') makes it easy to add story or filler missions to this game almost indefinitely.
Hands of Stone
Member
Possible solution to regain Quiet (PC only)
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...bout_quiet_mgsv_mod_tools_dont_read/?sort=new
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...bout_quiet_mgsv_mod_tools_dont_read/?sort=new
yah weird decision
i hope one day there's a 'making of mgsv' that explains why it's so weird. unlikely tho
Tribes of Trusty
Member
Well, I feel that way too. It's just that it is interesting. After all, on a meta level, after 7 canon mainline games in the MGS series (yes I count Portable Ops) - 9 if you were here from the MSX days, YOU, the player, finally became Big Boss for real (as evidenced by the avatar creation at the beginning, which was a BIG BIG hint, so much it got me pondering for 5 minutes).
Also, remember that twist isn't even new. No, not MGS2, but Ghost Babel where you were actually playing Raiden simulating a VR mission of Solid Snake. Would that have been better in MGSV ? Maybe so, as at least we'd have controlled the real Big Boss even through a proxy.
This game really needs a mission pack. No story, just various setpieces that hopefully are interesting.
giancarlo123x
Banned
Wonder if there is a nice secret for hitting 100%, no one has the platinum yet so we have to wait and see.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
It's actually Solidus Snake playing a VR Mission of Venom Snake impersonating Big Boss. EVERYTHING EXPLAINED THERE.
Also, about Quiet : I was so sure for a moment the reason she was so lightly dressed had something to do with how she burnt at the beginning at the game, even if she was treated she was left with horrible pain as soon as heavy fabric (like uniforms) touches her skin. That would've fit nicely with the whole "Pain" theme the game had going on.
My gut reaction while I was playing 47 was that somehow I feel like I've been robbed, like it was all for nothing. Kojima addressed that somewhat with the bathroom mirror speech, but even then I still don't know if it will be fully satisfying to go back.
The other thing is that see, kojima had the perfect opportunity to bring back hayter for one last thing and he blew it, or totally shipped it, or didn't want it to happen or whatever. Why do you have such a goddamn Sutherland hard on, kojima?
Also I like the thematic resonance of quiet not being available anymore, but goddamnit what about my mission replays, kojima? You think about that?
Gah.
So I finished about 7 hours ago.
I only just realized I had finished now.
7 hours ago is when I played Mission 46 -- and since then I've been knocking out side-ops, continuing development (just got Wormhole!), and doing the last 4 missions of the game w/ the variables. Fuck me that 4v1 sniper battle before getting Code Talker is a bitch.
I really thought I was going to get a final mission 51 after beating those last couple of missions, but is that it? Is the Eli/Mantis/Salanthropus(spelling) stuff unresolved? Quiet got resolution, regardless of what you thought of the character I guess she had an arc. But I feel like I'm missing stuff here, I'm hoping to finish up the Paz stuff a little later, few more side-ops to go to get the photos -- Is there any more to The Man on Fire? He's in quarantine, I think, anything I'm missing here? I listened to the dump of tapes after mission 46 -- there must have been over an hour of content about Zero and comatose Snake, but I'm still feeling a little, hmmm, unfulfilled I guess is a good way to put it, despite playing for almost 70 hours.
I only just realized I had finished now.
7 hours ago is when I played Mission 46 -- and since then I've been knocking out side-ops, continuing development (just got Wormhole!), and doing the last 4 missions of the game w/ the variables. Fuck me that 4v1 sniper battle before getting Code Talker is a bitch.
I really thought I was going to get a final mission 51 after beating those last couple of missions, but is that it? Is the Eli/Mantis/Salanthropus(spelling) stuff unresolved? Quiet got resolution, regardless of what you thought of the character I guess she had an arc. But I feel like I'm missing stuff here, I'm hoping to finish up the Paz stuff a little later, few more side-ops to go to get the photos -- Is there any more to The Man on Fire? He's in quarantine, I think, anything I'm missing here? I listened to the dump of tapes after mission 46 -- there must have been over an hour of content about Zero and comatose Snake, but I'm still feeling a little, hmmm, unfulfilled I guess is a good way to put it, despite playing for almost 70 hours.
Tribes of Trusty
Member
There is a mission 51
as an unfinished cutscene on the bonus disc of the collector edition lol
Nope, that's it.
I just remembered I had bookmarked that Kotaku article that had spoilers that mentioned cut content -- watching the 18 minute video just now, this is dense, It's shocking to see this not in the final game.
It really is a shame. I would have loved the final boss of another MGS to be Liquid again.
EmCeeGramr
Member
My problem with the whole "there's a metanarrative about the player being Big Boss" thing is that they use Venom/Ahab as the player's avatar, then the credits, post-credits convo, and unlocked tapes immediately reaffirm that that avatar is just "a phantom" for the "real Big Boss" for those in the know, and that the real one went on to be in MG2 and MGS4 and all that. If the player is meant to identify with their avatar also being the real Big Boss, then why immediately shatter that illusion by revealing the trick behind the avatar? I'm not saying what Kojima was necessarily intending one way or another, just what's there.
Contrast that with Raiden in MGS2. He starts out representing the player: a young dorky hotshot who thinks he's as badass as Snake because he played him in a videogame. He gets annoyed when his girlfriend tries to talk about stuff in the middle of "his mission" (his new game), he complains about backtracking and linearity and orders, he keeps shouting that there must be a conspiracy and a twist because he knows the plot to the first game but he keeps getting shouted down because he doesn't know everything yet. But then things start to get wonky once Raiden and Rose start talking about an empty room and him hitting her and Solidus recognizing him. The twist about his true past is the final straw: he's symbolically and literally stripped naked and helpless. Snake gives him a sword and Raiden starts playing the game in a whole new way. He throws away the dog tags with the player's info away at the end. Raiden starts out as an avatar for an MGS fanboy who wants to be Snake, then not only realizes the futility of trying to emulate Snake and a legend, but even breaks away from the player and their desires by becoming his own person with his own story and motivations.
Venom Snake remembers that he's not actually Big Boss but Big Boss says he is because he's emulating a legend so he punches a mirror and I guess the player is Big Boss except nobody who knows about it believes that
Contrast that with Raiden in MGS2. He starts out representing the player: a young dorky hotshot who thinks he's as badass as Snake because he played him in a videogame. He gets annoyed when his girlfriend tries to talk about stuff in the middle of "his mission" (his new game), he complains about backtracking and linearity and orders, he keeps shouting that there must be a conspiracy and a twist because he knows the plot to the first game but he keeps getting shouted down because he doesn't know everything yet. But then things start to get wonky once Raiden and Rose start talking about an empty room and him hitting her and Solidus recognizing him. The twist about his true past is the final straw: he's symbolically and literally stripped naked and helpless. Snake gives him a sword and Raiden starts playing the game in a whole new way. He throws away the dog tags with the player's info away at the end. Raiden starts out as an avatar for an MGS fanboy who wants to be Snake, then not only realizes the futility of trying to emulate Snake and a legend, but even breaks away from the player and their desires by becoming his own person with his own story and motivations.
Venom Snake remembers that he's not actually Big Boss but Big Boss says he is because he's emulating a legend so he punches a mirror and I guess the player is Big Boss except nobody who knows about it believes that
you rescue Kojima in one of the side ops, I havent checked if you can play as him though
onepiecefan
Member
I wonder if getting 100% will unlock the venom tape that's supposedly unachievable.
That video showed mission 51 as pretty far along, surprisingly far along -- not saying it would fix the narrative, but it would have helped. They could've just recycled the Sahelanthropus Afghanistan fight wholesale in a slightly different environment if they needed to cut corners.
On a more positive note -- that trip into the laboratory after the second infection breakout might be my favorite part of the game. As dark as it is, specifically the room you walk into where about a dozen Diamond Dog staff stand and salute while you methodically take them out was incredibly effective.
While I'm just going through thoughts of the game off the top of my head -- what the fuck was up with Huey in this game? He's far, far different than he seemed in Peace Walker, what a fucking weirdo, especially his exclamation of "REVENGE!" when putting Skull Face out of his misery.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Like I feel that in a more "traditional" MGS5, we would have had Venom get captured by Skull Face, then during the capture either Venom would remember who he was, or Skull Face would have figured it out and made a big "we're the same" speech. Then Eli would take over Sahelanthropus as usual, but instead of a tortured Snake beating it, he would get rescued by Quiet who speaks to tell MB where Snake is, and walks away to die in the desert as Snake is rescued by Miller and Ocelot swooping in on Pequod.
Snake has a big breakdown as Ocelot breaks his hypnosis and remembers what happened and explains to Miller and Venom. Miller starts to get unhinged but pledges to work underneath the "fake Boss" for now, while you work to find Sahelanthropus/Eli/Mantis and Skull Face. Over time, Ocelot gives Big Boss's tape to Venom who listens to it and decides that despite his past he'll keep acting as Big Boss, or even decides to be his own man and act on his own ideas, not thinking about what the real Boss would have done.
They discover XOF and Skull Face heading to Africa to the Kingdom of the Flies, where Skull Face lets loose the parasite to infect and kill Eli. The events of Mission 51 happen, except it's here that Skull Face is crushed and killed. As Venom sees Eli hating him as his "father" who never "gave him a choice," he's conflicted because he knows that he's in the exact same position as Eli.
He returns to Mother Base and gives some dramatic speech about whatever he's learned and what he thinks Outer Heaven should be while Ocelot looks on with a smirk and Miller looks disgusted. Roll credits, one last phone call or conversation between the real Big Boss and someone else, possibly Venom.
Snake has a big breakdown as Ocelot breaks his hypnosis and remembers what happened and explains to Miller and Venom. Miller starts to get unhinged but pledges to work underneath the "fake Boss" for now, while you work to find Sahelanthropus/Eli/Mantis and Skull Face. Over time, Ocelot gives Big Boss's tape to Venom who listens to it and decides that despite his past he'll keep acting as Big Boss, or even decides to be his own man and act on his own ideas, not thinking about what the real Boss would have done.
They discover XOF and Skull Face heading to Africa to the Kingdom of the Flies, where Skull Face lets loose the parasite to infect and kill Eli. The events of Mission 51 happen, except it's here that Skull Face is crushed and killed. As Venom sees Eli hating him as his "father" who never "gave him a choice," he's conflicted because he knows that he's in the exact same position as Eli.
He returns to Mother Base and gives some dramatic speech about whatever he's learned and what he thinks Outer Heaven should be while Ocelot looks on with a smirk and Miller looks disgusted. Roll credits, one last phone call or conversation between the real Big Boss and someone else, possibly Venom.
That's a lot more interesting than the crap we got.
Dick Justice
Banned
Yeah, some asshole from Konami that he didn't get along with (Scott Dolph I think) went behind his back and told Kojima that he was butchering Kojima's script. As a result, someone else was hired for 2, and from that point on, it was literal 1:1 translations.
god that sounds so much better. they had the pieces to make a good story but failed hard.
Goddamnit, stop making me want things.
Meh. Watching that footage makes it seem like all you'd be doing is fighting Sahelanthropus again, only this time it would be piloted.
UrbanDandy
Member
So did Huey ever reunite with Hal?
I feel like having the Venom reveal be the very last thing in the game hurts the game so much and results in this feeling we're all feeling. But maybe having story after the twist, like you're saying, would have lessened the blow and maybe gave us a chance to accept it.
I have to assume so, because Huey has to get remarried and Hal needs to smang Huey's wife.
mgs2master2
Banned
how do you think Huey killed himself?
Yes. This was told in MGS2.
The Mageling
Member
Well... yeah. They were together until Huey drowned himself.
I don't share many people's dislike of the story, I agree that it seems incomplete but I enjoyed the big reveal and didn't mind having played as someone other than Big Boss. That's the whole point, the idea of Big Boss is just that, an idea. Pretty cool.
However, Huey's turn in this game seemed unnatural. There weren't any hints to his true nature until GZ, and even then it was ambiguous. I was internally defending him while Ocelot and Kaz tortured the poor bastard, but I guess they were right. What the hell was his motivation? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I thought he even made some good points about Diamond Dogs just before he was sent adrift.
Yeah and then Hal banged Huey's new wife and so Huey drowned himself in their pool.
I don't feel so bad for Huey about that whole story after this game.
Dick Justice
Banned
That backstory is the sole reason why Kojima wrote Huey to be such an absolute shit in this game.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Big Boss, dying in the graveyard: Anyway, now that we've established that you didn't really fight me in Outer Heaven.
Old Snake: That's horseshit, but okay.
Big Boss: I'm surprised your friend Hal turned out okay. His dad was a real prick.
Old Snake: All I know is that he was born on the same day as Hiroshima and he possibly drowned himself in a pool because he found out that Otacon was sleeping with his new wife.
Big Boss: Oh. Well...
Old Snake: Otacon beats himself up over designing REX and causing all that and shaming his father into death.
Big Boss: Oh, well it's good I'm here then, you can tell him that neither of those are really his fault.
Old Snake: what the fuck now
Big Boss: His dad actually built the first Metal Gear that was basically just an anorexic REX, then he built another one that was REX but it could stand up like a person and had a sword and whip. Little Mantis controlled that one but it had a cockpit for little kids only.
Old Snake: what
Big Boss: Yeah, Hal probably stole all that shit. Didn't do a thing, really. Anyway, Huey - that's Hal's father, by the by - probably killed himself out of the shame of setting my mercenaries up to be slaughtered like twice, then helping a bad guy named Skull Face, then wanting to put Hal in the cockpit of a Metal Gear as a test subject, then killing Hal's mother for not wanting that last part.
Old Snake: Otacon has been tormented by the knowledge that he indirectly killed his father for decades. Which is kind of familiar, but I'm having second thoughts about the regrets part.
Big Boss: Nah, Huey was a huge asshole, it's fine.
Old Snake: That's horseshit, but okay.
Big Boss: I'm surprised your friend Hal turned out okay. His dad was a real prick.
Old Snake: All I know is that he was born on the same day as Hiroshima and he possibly drowned himself in a pool because he found out that Otacon was sleeping with his new wife.
Big Boss: Oh. Well...
Old Snake: Otacon beats himself up over designing REX and causing all that and shaming his father into death.
Big Boss: Oh, well it's good I'm here then, you can tell him that neither of those are really his fault.
Old Snake: what the fuck now
Big Boss: His dad actually built the first Metal Gear that was basically just an anorexic REX, then he built another one that was REX but it could stand up like a person and had a sword and whip. Little Mantis controlled that one but it had a cockpit for little kids only.
Old Snake: what
Big Boss: Yeah, Hal probably stole all that shit. Didn't do a thing, really. Anyway, Huey - that's Hal's father, by the by - probably killed himself out of the shame of setting my mercenaries up to be slaughtered like twice, then helping a bad guy named Skull Face, then wanting to put Hal in the cockpit of a Metal Gear as a test subject, then killing Hal's mother for not wanting that last part.
Old Snake: Otacon has been tormented by the knowledge that he indirectly killed his father for decades. Which is kind of familiar, but I'm having second thoughts about the regrets part.
Big Boss: Nah, Huey was a huge asshole, it's fine.
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